I Spy With My Mechanical Eye
Quote: kewljAnd what happens when you think someone looks like someone famous, like say mark him down as "Andy Rooney" or "Uncle Fester" and the next pit person doesn't see it and is looking around not seeing "Andy Rooney" or "Uncle Fester". LOL.
The description is usually pretty obvious and most of the time pretty humorous.
ZCore13
Quote: kewljThank you both for the responses.
Quick follow-up. Both of you indicated you would keep a partial evaluation for future reference. I assume if a player playing rated returned, again playing rated, that would immediately trigger resumption of evaluation. But what happens when the player is playing unrated? Possible you can identify him/her by facial recognition, but we keep hearing that is pretty unreliable.
In the event that you have an unidentified player, playing unrated, not matching any entries in databases, do you assign a temporary name or id to him, sort of a 'working id'?
To be quite honest, our in-house rated play is quite pathetic in my opinion. If you're referencing forfeiting a player's card and earning points / comps, it's entirely handled by the pit, not by us. My interest in players is entirely based on them as a patron, not their choice to hand over a card or not. Regular players get recognized one way or another, and like it's been said above, we do assign alias' or high roller index numbers to players for cataloging them. It's quite common to actually just refer to them by their number rather than their name. It works wonders with bacc players, as they tend to have alias' or western names themselves.
One older patron we have quite frequently play, I know only by a given name. Whether or not that's his actual name, I don't care. I've associated the name to the face, and understand his play. Hell, I can look at an overhead camera and recognize him by his hands. Just an example. You stare at monitors for 40-44 hours a week, you'll remember faces, even without names.
Quote: BlueEagleWhich reminds me of the article that Wizard wrote in response to this thread:
Advantage Players Care More (Why They Know More Than the Employees...in Some Ways)
With all due respect, the Wizard didn't write that, I did.
Quote: Mission146Quote: BlueEagleWhich reminds me of the article that Wizard wrote in response to this thread:
Advantage Players Care More (Why They Know More Than the Employees...in Some Ways)
With all due respect, the Wizard didn't write that, I did.
It's easy to see the confusion. I was confused myself trying to see who wrote certain articles. They are uncredited on the main "Articles" page and on each article itself. Only on the home page does your handle appear next to each article name. Anyone reading an uncredited article might naturally assume it was written by Wizard.
Quote: Mission146With all due respect, the Wizard didn't write that, I did.
Is there a usual place to look for a byline or other attribution?
I don't see it on either the article or the list of articles.
Quote: DieterIs there a usual place to look for a byline or other attribution?
I don't see it on either the article or the list of articles.
Currently, I don't believe that there is. I was just pointing it out in this particular instance because I believe that my articles would likely be inferior to his, so I don't want anyone to think he authored something that I wrote.
That said, I'm rather flattered that anyone would mistake something that I wrote for having been written by Wizard.
Quote: Mission146Quote: DieterIs there a usual place to look for a byline or other attribution?
I don't see it on either the article or the list of articles.
Currently, I don't believe that there is. I was just pointing it out in this particular instance because I believe that my articles would likely be inferior to his, so I don't want anyone to think he authored something that I wrote.
That said, I'm rather flattered that anyone would mistake something that I wrote for having been written by Wizard.
Maybe the Wizard is flattered as well.
Quote: 1BB
Maybe the Wizard is flattered as well.
I'm flattered that you would say so! :)
I can't comment on the accuracy of Dodsferd's remarks since I've never worked in Canada. As for most serious operations in the U.S., slots are monitored and regularly audited for A.P. It's actually a lot easier than the tables, since we can get exact data on turnover and win. It's quite simple to zoom in on negative hold banks of machines, identify the players, and then either boot them, or fix the games. The majority of a company's revenue is in the machines and throwing up your hands and saying "No one can beat my machines" is a sure way to lose your job. In my experience we've had players take advantage of promotions on certain machines who were subsequently barred. Also had the rare pleasure to send some people to prison for scamming the slot point free-play system using an insider.
But in the grand scheme of things, unless your talking $10K action or higher, A.P.'s are irrelevant and make no impact on the bottom line. Most play at a negative EV and don't realize it. Real surveillance is catching cheating, scamming, and other various scum.
Quote: KingoftheEye
...
It's quite simple to zoom in on negative hold banks of machines, identify the players, and then either boot them, or fix the games. The majority of a company's revenue is in the machines and throwing up your hands and saying "No one can beat my machines" is a sure way to lose your job. In my experience we've had players take advantage of promotions on certain machines who were subsequently barred.
...
Are you saying that if you see players winning on machines, you will boot them even if you can't identify what they are doing? Wouldn't that just alienate good customers that got lucky and that more than likely will lose it back later? If players are exploiting poorly designed promotions you would bar the players rather than fixing the promotions? Personally I am not an AP and play -EV games (other than poker, where I am probably close to break even due to all the bad players out there.) Even then, if I noticed an easily exploitable promo I would certainly take advantage. It would be dumb not to. If your casino decided to kick me out in that instance, you would be forgoing all future revenue from me, a losing player overall.
Quote: KingoftheEyewe've had players take advantage of promotions on certain machines who were subsequently barred.
A couple years ago my wife got $50 a
week in free play from Firekeepers in
Battle Creek. I would go without her
and use her card on a roulette machine
and by betting red and black at the
same time, would win the $50 and use
it for gas money. I did this many many
times over the period of a year.
Would this get me banned from your
casino?
Quote: EvenBobA couple years ago my wife got $50 a
week in free play from Firekeepers in
Battle Creek. I would go without her
and use her card on a roulette machine
and by betting red and black at the
same time, would win the $50 and use
it for gas money. I did this many many
times over the period of a year.
Would this get me banned from your
casino?
If I may also answer this; No. If there is a direct relationship such as a spouse, we are lenient in that regard. Non direct family members is prohibited though. We've had some abuse with people using their "cousin"'s card and such.
Quote: jml24Are you saying that if you see players winning on machines, you will boot them even if you can't identify what they are doing? Wouldn't that just alienate good customers that got lucky and that more than likely will lose it back later? If players are exploiting poorly designed promotions you would bar the players rather than fixing the promotions? Personally I am not an AP and play -EV games (other than poker, where I am probably close to break even due to all the bad players out there.) Even then, if I noticed an easily exploitable promo I would certainly take advantage. It would be dumb not to. If your casino decided to kick me out in that instance, you would be forgoing all future revenue from me, a losing player overall.
In all cases before any action is taken, a company will asses the player's value.
I should have been more clear. If we find that there is a flaw in a machine, either through programming or promotion, then the machine would be fixed and probably no action would be taken against the players for being smarter than us. If there is a player being "creative" to circumvent established controls to maintain a house edge, then that player may be booted. Always case by case.
Quote: EvenBobA couple years ago my wife got $50 a
week in free play from Firekeepers in
Battle Creek. I would go without her
and use her card on a roulette machine
and by betting red and black at the
same time, would win the $50 and use
it for gas money. I did this many many
times over the period of a year.
Would this get me banned from your
casino?
No one would bother,
it's $50.
(that's almost a rhyme)
I'm talking promos that get hit for >10K, not mom and pop stuff.
Quote: KingoftheEyeNo one would bother,
it's $50.
So the casino doesn't care if you use
another persons card to turn the
free play into cash by using a slot
machine in a way that it's not intended
to be used? And then leaving with the
cash? That's OK with them.
Quote: EvenBobSo the casino doesn't care if you use
another persons card to turn the
free play into cash by using a slot
machine in a way that it's not intended
to be used? And then leaving with the
cash? That's OK with them.
How is that not the way it is intended to be used? It is a Roulette machine upon which the player is expected to make negative expectation bets, using the free play, you are making negative expectation bets...even if you hedge the zero in a way by which the result is a fixed loss.
With respect to the other person's card, some casinos would care about that and some wouldn't. Fewer would care, if it is your wife, but there are still those that won't like that.
Quote: Mission146How is that not the way it is intended to be used?
I didn't see any fine print on the offer that
said you can turn the free play into instant
cash at one of the roulette slots by betting
red and black at the same time. Also, you
can't do it anymore. Last time I was there
I bet on R/B and machine rejected it as not
a 'legitimate bet'. So somebody caught on
and fixed the problem.
Can someone come up with something thats not general knowledge or on the internet? "Also had the rare pleasure to send some people to prison for scamming the slot point free-play system using an inside." There's been a few articles about this recently. I'm certain you can count the number of people who have went to prison over this on one hand.Quote: KingoftheEyeAfter reading through the pages and pages of this thread, I'm finally ready to make a comment. I'm also a new official member here, but have been lurking for several years. I started in the business in 2004, even then we had a Griffin Book, but we used the Griffin Online more often. We cancelled our subscription shortly after I started due to budget cuts. I've since moved onto bigger and better things and now run my own department.
I can't comment on the accuracy of Dodsferd's remarks since I've never worked in Canada. As for most serious operations in the U.S., slots are monitored and regularly audited for A.P. It's actually a lot easier than the tables, since we can get exact data on turnover and win. It's quite simple to zoom in on negative hold banks of machines, identify the players, and then either boot them, or fix the games. The majority of a company's revenue is in the machines and throwing up your hands and saying "No one can beat my machines" is a sure way to lose your job. In my experience we've had players take advantage of promotions on certain machines who were subsequently barred. Also had the rare pleasure to send some people to prison for scamming the slot point free-play system using an insider.
But in the grand scheme of things, unless your talking $10K action or higher, A.P.'s are irrelevant and make no impact on the bottom line. Most play at a negative EV and don't realize it. Real surveillance is catching cheating, scamming, and other various scum.
Can you explain exactly what they were doing? Sentence they received? Who testified in court?
"It's quite simple to zoom in on negative hold banks of machines" What? elaborate please. Details exactly what negative banks of machines you're referring to.
"In my experience we've had players take advantage of promotions on certain machines who were subsequently barred." What machines and promotions, details please?
10K action on VP is peanuts that seems silly. That's 2 hrs on a single line dollar machine. and way less time on multi play.
Even a .25 5 play can get 10k through in no time. I don't know 1 VP AP that isn't putting 10k in action, even at very low levels.
Quote: EvenBobI didn't see any fine print on the offer that
said you can turn the free play into instant
cash at one of the roulette slots by betting
red and black at the same time. Also, you
can't do it anymore. Last time I was there
I bet on R/B and machine rejected it as not
a 'legitimate bet'. So somebody caught on
and fixed the problem.
Did you see any fine print on the offer that said you couldn't do such a thing?
If it were a Shoot to Win Craps machine, you could play the Free Play on one unit on the Pass Line and play cash on the next unit on Don't Pass and hedge the twelve on the CO if you wanted to, unless they make the machine ineligible for Free Play, that is.
I've been to quite a few casinos that do not allow Free Play to be used on Roulette machines at all, and I suspect this may be part of the reason why. However, I think it would be ridiculous for security to take any interest in you if they did allow Free Play to be used on the Roulette Machines and had no measures in place to prevent opposite betting.
Using Free Play: Check
Betting Red: Check
Simultaneously Betting Black: Check
Possibly Hedging Zero: Check
It seems that, at one time, the casino allowed you to do all of those things. The problem, if there is in fact a problem, is with them and not you; thus, if they wish to, "Fix," their own problem, then the proper course of action is to modify the machine or simply not allow Free Play to be used on it.
In any case, I believe that I know some of the plays being referred to in recent posts, but I'm not going to say anything about them publicly. Furthermore, you have not seem to have historically shown an interest in slots/keno/vp, so I doubt you would be very concerned with any of it.
Quote: 1BBWhile were at it, why the surge in long time lurkers who suddenly decide that it's time to make their first post? Not that there's anything wrong with that. I'm just naturally curious.
In the case of a few, I'm going to suggest that there have not been many threads made specifically from the surveillance-side of the casino operation, so that could reasonably compel a few new people to post.
I was wondering the same thing 1BB was a while ago, but this takes the cake.Quote: Mission146In the case of a few, I'm going to suggest that there have not been many threads made specifically from the surveillance-side of the casino operation, so that could reasonably compel a few new people to post.
Do all you mods go to the same training school? Please just tell me you have referred to the WOV moderators hand book to answer this question and you don't actually believe this. I expect this answer from BBB. I see shes on vacation or something.
Perhaps we need a influx of new members who are "hosts".
Quote: AxelWolfI was wondering the same thing 1BB was a while ago, but this takes the cake.
Do all you mods go to the same training school? Please just tell me you have referred to the WOV moderators hand book to answer this question and you don't actually believe this. I expect this answer from BBB. I see shes on vacation or something.
Perhaps we need a influx of new members who are "hosts".
Well, in fairness, my opinion is based, in part, on information to which most Members do not have access. In this case, namely, access to IP addresses. And, again, I am referring specifically to participants in this thread.
Quote: AxelWolfCan someone come up with something thats not general knowledge or on the internet?
Try and come up with anything that's even remotely mainstream that's not on the internet. If it's ever been tried, done, failed or thought about, it's on the internet.
ZCore13
Check my IP then tell me if that information would tell you anything other than where I might be at.Quote: Mission146Well, in fairness, my opinion is based, in part, on information to which most Members do not have access. In this case, namely, access to IP addresses. And, again, I am referring specifically to participants in this thread.
keep it to yourself.
I don't know exactly what you can or cant see. But if someone uses a VPN they can make their location appear in almost any major city in the world.
Quote: AxelWolfCheck my IP then tell me if that information would tell you anything other than where I might be at.
keep it to yourself.
I don't know exactly what you can or cant see. But if someone uses a VPN they can make their location appear in almost any major city in the world.
I sent you a text.
Quote: Mission146I sent you a text.
That made me smile.
meh, phones dead on charger. Dam thing was fully charged at lunch time and dead by 4pm.Quote: Mission146I sent you a text.
Quote: Mission146I was just pointing it out in this particular instance because I believe that my articles would likely be inferior to his, so I don't want anyone to think he authored something that I wrote.
That said, I'm rather flattered that anyone would mistake something that I wrote for having been written by Wizard.
The other week when I took the time to peruse some articles for the first time, I noticed that no credit is given to an author, nor is there a date to indicate when the article was posted, for all of the articles on the first-half of the page. I noticed that some of the older articles were written by people other than Wizard.
Having no information on who wrote the recent articles and no indication of who else around here would be writing articles, I had to assume that the former owner and content author was writing the articles. This issue needs to be addressed with the website develeper so that each article includes the author and date.
Interesting but no. that's strange i'm not using a VPN, I'm sure the provider is correct, but at least you cant tell what casino I'm at.Quote: Mission146I sent you a PM.
Perhaps research online could pinpoint the casino.
Quote: BlueEagleThe other week when I took the time to peruse some articles for the first time, I noticed that no credit is given to an author, nor is there a date to indicate when the article was posted, for all of the articles on the first-half of the page. I noticed that some of the older articles were written by people other than Wizard.
Having no information on who wrote the recent articles and no indication of who else around here would be writing articles, I had to assume that the former owner and content author was writing the articles. This issue needs to be addressed with the website develeper so that each article includes the author and date.
They will after the release of the new format.
Quote: AxelWolfInteresting but no. that's strange i'm not using a VPN, I'm sure the provider is correct, but at least you cant tell what casino I'm at.
Perhaps research online could pinpoint the casino.
It most assuredly could, if I were so inclined.
Quote: DRichAt a property that I just started doing some work for I found an AP that was awarded around $400,000 in comps for playing 99.73% NSUD at the $1 level. His actual comps based on his play should have been closer to $30k. He came back once since we fixed the problem and I don't expect to see him again.
Okay, someone here fess up! 400k. vs 30k. Yeah, that's cleaning up. Unless the person had to consume 400k in buffet dinners.
Quote: rxwineOkay, someone here fess up! 400k. vs 30k. Yeah, that's cleaning up. Unless the person had to consume 400k in buffet dinners.
in my life I've seen quite a few things where I think "hmm, this would probably be my primary source of income if I lived here, but I don't, so I'm going to play it for a day and go home". this sounds like one of those things. presumably if you've earned 30k in real comps playing NSU deuces, you have given a couple million in coin in.
Quote: tongniin my life I've seen quite a few things where I think "hmm, this would probably be my primary source of income if I lived here, but I don't, so I'm going to play it for a day and go home". this sounds like one of those things. presumably if you've earned 30k in real comps playing NSU deuces, you have given a couple million in coin in.
Let's just say way north of a couple million.
Quote: EvenBobSo the casino doesn't care if you use
another persons card to turn the
free play into cash by using a slot
machine in a way that it's not intended
to be used? And then leaving with the
cash? That's OK with them.
I'm saying no one is going to chase you over your $50 freeplay at least in my experience. Freeplay is an earned benefit and if there is no fraud involved, just as it seems there is no fraud in your case, than we are happy you are using the benefit and hope you come back to play again.
If you use another person's card without their approval, that's a whole other can of worms.
Quote: KingoftheEye
If you use another person's card without their approval, that's a whole other can of worms.
So you can use somebody else's card as long as they
say it's OK?
Quote: AxelWolfCan someone come up with something thats not general knowledge or on the internet? "Also had the rare pleasure to send some people to prison for scamming the slot point free-play system using an inside." There's been a few articles about this recently. I'm certain you can count the number of people who have went to prison over this on one hand.
Can you explain exactly what they were doing? Sentence they received? Who testified in court?
"It's quite simple to zoom in on negative hold banks of machines" What? elaborate please. Details exactly what negative banks of machines you're referring to.
"In my experience we've had players take advantage of promotions on certain machines who were subsequently barred." What machines and promotions, details please?
10K action on VP is peanuts that seems silly. That's 2 hrs on a single line dollar machine. and way less time on multi play.
Even a .25 5 play can get 10k through in no time. I don't know 1 VP AP that isn't putting 10k in action, even at very low levels.
For negative hold banks, I thought I was quite clear. Banks of machines that are losing money.
For the slot free play scam, it was a marketing host changing PIN numbers on inactive accounts, then issuing new cards and giving them to her friends to redeem the free-play balance. Once they put those in a machine and redeemed the first $1, it became a gaming felony. As for sentence, I don't care. As for who testified, it was Nunya. Fullname: Nunya Business.
For promotions on machines players can take advantage of, I'm sure you can find a wealth of information on this site if you bother to search for it yourself. I'm not going to hold your hand here. I'm sure many other members can help you get some remedial training if you are needing help.
For 10K action, you misunderstand, I'm talking 10K per hand, not total turnover. I'm also no longer focusing on slots at this point but on the tables.
Quote: EvenBobSo you can use somebody else's card as long as they
say it's OK?
Depends on the company. I've never worked in a jurisdiction where using another person's card was a criminal offense. As a caveat, some places may frown upon it and kick you out. Logically, if the play is legitimately earned, it shouldn't matter who is using the card.
Disclaimer 1: If the new IRS thing passes, all bets are off with the above.
Disclaimer 2: I'm just talking mass market regular play here. There are exceptions to this if you get into offset betting or playing in programs.
Quote: EvenBobSo you can use somebody else's card as long as they
say it's OK?
Adding to this how can you get any proof you're allowed to use their players card?
A husband/wife team could be on a rocky road to divorce, and one spouse is a big player. The other spouse cleans out the card of free play and earned points, would this be OK since they are married?
What about boyfriend/girlfriend? Siblings?
I've seen people carrying a keyring with 20 cards, I'm sure thats a violation unless they are polygamists. What about 3 or 4 friends? Is this a big problem? Lots of people (APs and ploppies) will play their friends cards if they are going to the casino anyway.
Quote: djatcAdding to this how can you get any proof you're allowed to use their players card?
A husband/wife team could be on a rocky road to divorce, and one spouse is a big player. The other spouse cleans out the card of free play and earned points, would this be OK since they are married?
What about boyfriend/girlfriend? Siblings?
I've seen people carrying a keyring with 20 cards, I'm sure thats a violation unless they are polygamists. What about 3 or 4 friends? Is this a big problem? Lots of people (APs and ploppies) will play their friends cards if they are going to the casino anyway.
In my own experience, it's been an issue when someone is noticed swiping multiple cards at a time. For the spousal thing, some leniency has been granted in the cases of both patrons having the same last name, or home address on the account.
Overall though, it's not really something that matters that much. I'm more interested in the action on the table games than someone swiping for a free meal voucher.
Quote: djatcAdding to this how can you get any proof you're allowed to use their players card?
A husband/wife team could be on a rocky road to divorce, and one spouse is a big player. The other spouse cleans out the card of free play and earned points, would this be OK since they are married?
What about boyfriend/girlfriend? Siblings?
I've seen people carrying a keyring with 20 cards, I'm sure thats a violation unless they are polygamists. What about 3 or 4 friends? Is this a big problem? Lots of people (APs and ploppies) will play their friends cards if they are going to the casino anyway.
For your case 1, I would argue that would fall under the broad topic of what we call Personal Disputes. In this case the casino would not be a party any more than a bank would be over the shared accounts.
For the others, it will depend on the property. I'm not going to go through all of the player rewards program rules for every casino for you. That being said, the lady with 20 cards may have a different one for each casino, if she had 20 cards for my casino and was using them, she may be pulled in for an interview and possible membership cancelation of all memberships she was holding depending on what was going on.
Quote: KingoftheEyeDepends on the company. I've never worked in a jurisdiction where using another person's card was a criminal offense. As a caveat, some places may frown upon it and kick you out. Logically, if the play is legitimately earned, it shouldn't matter who is using the card.
Disclaimer 1: If the new IRS thing passes, all bets are off with the above.
Disclaimer 2: I'm just talking mass market regular play here. There are exceptions to this if you get into offset betting or playing in programs.
are you guys prosecuting offset betting or claiming it's a crime?
edit: in conjunction with a program
Quote: KingoftheEyeI've never worked in a jurisdiction where using another person's card was a criminal offense.
Pennsylvania. It is a crime to use another persons player's card with or without their permission. Punishable by up to $5000 fine and 5 years probation. There is case working it's way through the system currently involving a group of AP's. Many people think that even though the law is on the books, they would never say or do anything involving a husband/wife or close relative, but are just using this to make life difficult for the AP's.
Quote: kewljPennsylvania. It is a crime to use another persons player's card with or without their permission. Punishable by up to $5000 fine and 5 years probation. There is case working it's way through the system currently involving a group of AP's. Many people think that even though the law is on the books, they would never say or do anything involving a husband/wife or close relative, but are just using this to make life difficult for the AP's.
Canceling my plans to Scranton to visit Dunder Mifflin and acquire 50 cards for freeplay. Thanks a lot kewlj....
Quote: djatcCanceling my plans to Scranton to visit Dunder Mifflin and acquire 50 cards for freeplay. Thanks a lot kewlj....
I've wondered if that 'welcome to Scranton' sign has become a tourist attraction?
Quote: AxelWolfI was wondering the same thing 1BB was a while ago, but this takes the cake.
Do all you mods go to the same training school? Please just tell me you have referred to the WOV moderators hand book to answer this question and you don't actually believe this. I expect this answer from BBB. I see shes on vacation or something.
Perhaps we need a influx of new members who are "hosts".
Your issue with me is what, exactly?
No issue, unless you take offense at being nice and and looking for reasons someone is a legitimate poster rather than a sock puppet or BS artist.Quote: beachbumbabsYour issue with me is what, exactly?
