Book announcement: Advanced Advantage Play

Where is John May/GBV? LOL. His review would be invaluable. If you throw in Baccarat for the Clueless, I'm in!

Quote: DMSCR

Where is John May/GBV? LOL. His review would be invaluable. If you throw in Baccarat for the Clueless, I'm in!

He was nuked here. He hangs out at bj21.com. I don't own Baccarat for the Clueless, but funny thing, I quoted it in my expert's report for Phil Ivey v. Crockfords and it came up several times during my testimony in the case.

If anyone tried to buy AAP, it was offline all day. Back to normal soon, now.

My copy has been shipped, supposedly to arrive Friday. I'll give you an honest review. So that's one.

Quote: beachbumbabs

My copy has been shipped, supposedly to arrive Friday. I'll give you an honest review. So that's one.

Much appreciated!

Quote:

I won't speak to the conspiracy theories, but he is being truthful about that.

Pretty clever insult there, counselor.

Maybe you could substitute "accurate" for "truthful;" otherwise you are calling me a liar.

Quote: MrV

Pretty clever insult there, counselor.

Maybe you could substitute "accurate" for "truthful;" otherwise you are calling me a liar.

Please do not derail this thread. Thanks.

Eliot, even though I have most of the material I would want from the book, I ordered it mainly because it will be nice to have organized for easier reference, and the information is a bit easier to digest than CAA. I will write a review if you like or will refrain if you prefer, I'm sure I will rate it at 3-4 stars. The math is correct and there's lots of good information and a fair share of original work. My criticisms would be very scant coverage of UTH and bj hc for a reference on advanced advantage play for either side of the table, and potential vulnerabilities stated as either 100% information or often $100 max sidebets, both conditions of which are pretty rare.

But it's likely on of a short list of AP reference books that are worth spending any money on IMO along with: CAA, BJ attack, Modern BJ volume 1-2, and advanced tactics in casino advantage play.

Eliot,

I have always enjoyed your work, but I am disappointed to learn that in selling your book, you have moved the information from a useful format to a much less useful format.

I don't think you took the right approach here. Why on earth would you go back through your blog and delete ("edit") 150 posts -- the very posts that made your name in this niche business?

First of all, anyone who wants to find those posts can easily get the information.

For example: https://web.archive.org/web/20141024132302/http://apheat.net/2014/03/17/blackjack-an-ace-or-ten-in-the-hand/

Second, I don't think having the information available on your Web site would deter book sales. The appeal of a book is having everything you need in one package, right there on paper. The appeal of a Web site is having the information you need available from anywhere in the world, easily searchable. They're two different advantages, and removing the latter doesn't hurt the former.

I hope you consider changing the blog back to how it was and simply adding a purchase link to your book on the top of every page.

Quote: sodawater

Eliot,

I have always enjoyed your work, but I am disappointed to learn that in selling your book, you have moved the information from a useful format to a much less useful format.

I don't think you took the right approach here. Why on earth would you go back through your blog and delete ("edit") 150 posts -- the very posts that made your name in this niche business?

First of all, anyone who wants to find those posts can easily get the information.

For example: https://web.archive.org/web/20141024132302/http://apheat.net/2014/03/17/blackjack-an-ace-or-ten-in-the-hand/

Second, I don't think having the information available on your Web site would deter book sales. The appeal of a book is having everything you need in one package, right there on paper. The appeal of a Web site is having the information you need available from anywhere in the world, easily searchable. They're two different advantages, and removing the latter doesn't hurt the former.

I hope you consider changing the blog back to how it was and simply adding a purchase link to your book on the top of every page.

Just let it be. The less readily available the information is, the better. Everybody complained on his site about giving away secrets, so now he added a layer of secrecy to the site. If you want to continue to use the info, just use the archives as you suggested in the post.

Quote: Avincow

Just let it be. The less readily available the information is, the better. Everybody complained on his site about giving away secrets, so now he added a layer of secrecy to the site. If you want to continue to use the info, just use the archives as you suggested in the post.

I was all to happy to hear information was taken down from the website.

But once book sales dwindle I'm wondering if he will add them back?

Quote: beachbumbabs

My copy has been shipped, supposedly to arrive Friday. I'll give you an honest review. So that's one.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Your first book on casino game design was invaluable, so I'm confident this book will be useful as well.

Honestly I don't think you can be completely objective.

Also Since you are in the table games business, I can't imagine you ever giving criticism to someone like Elliot.

Quote: AxelWolf

I was all to happy to hear information was taken down from the website.

But once book sales dwindle I'm wondering if he will add them back?

Then teliot can pull a Toby Crabel and create a cult following on the book then that price is going to sky rocket. Stay tuned to a hilarious ebay auction from EvenBob.

Quote: mcallister3200

Eliot, even though I have most of the material I would want from the book, I ordered it mainly because it will be nice to have organized for easier reference, and the information is a bit easier to digest than CAA. I will write a review if you like or will refrain if you prefer, I'm sure I will rate it at 3-4 stars. The math is correct and there's lots of good information and a fair share of original work. My criticisms would be very scant coverage of UTH and bj hc for a reference on advanced advantage play for either side of the table, and potential vulnerabilities stated as either 100% information or often $100 max sidebets, both conditions of which are pretty rare.

Hi, yes, I would appreciate your review. I don't care about the stars (well, I do), I just want honest reviews. You will see on Amazon that some AP who didn't read the book took a shot at me. That's the only thing I don't want.

As far as what you said above, I agree with all of your feedback. I just didn't get to UTH -- and I didn't want to put a chapter in just quoting Grosjean. The $100 bet on side bets is not reasonable at most US casinos, but internationally, side bet limits get quite a bit higher. This book is not meant for just a US market. As for BJ HC, I never covered that on my blog and never considered it part of the material, but I see now how it might be so.

Thanks.

Quote: AxelWolf

Honestly I don't think you can be completely objective.

You are right. She may not like that I have a chapter on hole-carding her game, OFTM. Certainly this alone means she is not just some random buyer of the book.

Quote: AxelWolf

I was all to happy to hear information was taken down from the website.

But once book sales dwindle I'm wondering if he will add them back?

No. I will not be putting it back. I can't imagine doing that in any universe. Things have just moved on.

Quote: sodawater

I hope you consider changing the blog back to how it was and simply adding a purchase link to your book on the top of every page.

I considered this idea and Bill Zender and I discussed all options at length. Zender told me that he removed the articles from his website that he put into his CasinoOlogy books and encouraged me to do the same. Then any new articles I write will drive sales.

As you showed, you can find the information at archive sites if you really want it. In the mean time, I think the book is MUCH easier to use than the blog. But, you would need a copy of the book to see this.

I am seeing it for $40.16 now on Amazon.

Quote: DRich

I am seeing it for $40.16 now on Amazon.

I see the same price -- that's a pretty hefty discount, almost 20% below list price.

To be honest, our team able to create better and easier card counting system for most of the games that available in his book ! We prefer RC instead of TC. However, most of the games have become obsolete.

Quote: EvenBob

How much of it is info that we don't already
know. 95% of the content of books like this
is usually stuff that we've known for years.

We've known 96.66% of it for years.

Quote: ssho88

BJT

Really, is that you Blackjack Traveler?! If so, that explains a lot about the questions you ask and the comments you make!

For those who may not know:

http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/TravelerInterview.htm

Quote: teliot

Really, is that you Blackjack Traveler?! If so, that explains a lot about the questions you ask and the comments you make!

For those who may not know:

http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/TravelerInterview.htm

For an example, TOTAL SHOT BONUS, RC counting system : 1,1,1,0,0,0,0,-1,-5,1,1,1,1(A to King), bet when RC>=33. Easier to count, no errors and most importantly ev/shoe is 100% as good as ev/shoe of TC counting system. I think you can verify it easily, don't you ?

Quote: ssho88

For an example, TOTAL SHOT BONUS, RC counting system : 1,1,1,0,0,0,0,-1,-5,1,1,1,1(A to King), bet when RC>=33. Easier to count, no errors and most importantly ev/shoe is 100% as good as ev/shoe of TC counting system. I think you can verify it easily, don't you ?

Do you admit you are Blackjack Traveler?

Yes, obviously, RC counts can be developed that are as good (or better) than TC counts. I even say so in my book. You AP's should write a book and publish it, so *everyone* can buy a copy who wants one.

Exhibit CAA Beyond Counting is a good example but unfortunately it's NOT for *everyone* :-)

Teliot: I received my copy today and have spent a few hours reading through parts of it. I am a recently joined member of this WOV forum and I have never read your blog, i.e., I claim objectivity - but I am a long-time analyst of gaming mathematics. I am very impressed with your book! Congratulations! Here is the review I have posted on Amazon.com:

"Advantage Average Play is one of the best and most comprehensive books ever on analysis of strategies for beating casino table games. Don’t expect many personal accounts of the author’s colorful history of beating the casinos, or of exploits by other gamblers – instead this book is filled with mathematical analyses of what works and what doesn’t. It begins with introductory material on card counting, edge sorting, collusion, and hole carding and ends with similar analyses of strategies for utilizing casino promotions, match play coupons and loss rebates to reduce or eliminate the house edge. Approximately half of this massive book is on analysis of techniques and systems for beating blackjack, baccarat and the many side-bets for those two games that have been offered. Additional material includes analyses of Mississippi Stud, Carribean Stud, 3 Card Poker, Let it Ride and an assortment of other games and side bets.

Some of the material is a bit dated – a number of the side bets and rules variations are no longer offered by U.S. casinos. But the net effect of all this material is to certainly expand the reader’s mind to the “advantage gamblers” world and the many possibilities for attempting to make money at casino gambling.

There are lots and lots of numbers in the book –but the tables of numbers are attractively and clearly formatted, and relatively easy to apply. Still, having a basic understanding of mathematics and probability analysis is helpful in absorbing this material.

A note on the author, Eliot Richardson (edit: corrected to Jacobson). He is well known in the internet world of gambling analysts and has been employed by casinos to provide information to safeguard their games from expert gamblers. Thus, there are individuals who may have a personal grudge or a special interest in suppressing the information in this book (because it reveals a technique that they use.) I advise you to look at the Table of Contents for this book, with its 133 chapter titles, and use that as a context when interpreting any unusually harsh review."

Quote: gordonm888

Teliot: I received my copy today and have spent a few hours reading through parts of it. I am a recently joined member of this WOV forum and I have never read your blog, i.e., I claim objectivity - but I am a long-time analyst of gaming mathematics. I am very impressed with your book! Congratulations! Here is the review I have posted on Amazon.com:

"Advantage Average Play is one of the best and most comprehensive books ever on analysis of strategies for beating casino table games. Don’t expect many personal accounts of the author’s colorful history of beating the casinos, or of exploits by other gamblers – instead this book is filled with mathematical analyses of what works and what doesn’t. It begins with introductory material on card counting, edge sorting, collusion, and hole carding and ends with similar analyses of strategies for utilizing casino promotions, match play coupons and loss rebates to reduce or eliminate the house edge. Approximately half of this massive book is on analysis of techniques and systems for beating blackjack, baccarat and the many side-bets for those two games that have been offered. Additional material includes analyses of Mississippi Stud, Carribean Stud, 3 Card Poker, Ultimate Texas Hold’em, Let it Ride and an assortment of other games and side bets.

Some of the material is a bit dated – a number of the side bets and rules variations are no longer offered by U.S. casinos. But the net effect of all this material is to certainly expand the reader’s mind to the “advantage gamblers” world and the many possibilities for attempting to make money at casino gambling.

There are lots and lots of numbers in the book –but the tables of numbers are attractively and clearly formatted, and relatively easy to apply. Still, having a basic understanding of mathematics and probability analysis is helpful in absorbing this material.

A note on the author, Eliot Richardson. He is well known in the internet world of gambling analysts and has been employed by casinos to provide information to safeguard their games from expert gamblers. Thus, there are individuals who may have a personal grudge or a special interest in suppressing the information in this book (because it reveals a technique that they use.) I advise you to look at the Table of Contents for this book, with its 133 chapter titles, and use that as a context when interpreting any unusually harsh review."

Wow, thanks for the great and thorough review! I am glad you appreciate AAP for what it is. That will be very helpful for people who are considering buying the book.

If you can still fix it, I'd correct "Eliot Richardson," though he sounds like a pretty interesting guy. 8-)

Quote: teliot

Wow, thanks for the great and thorough review! I am glad you appreciate AAP for what it is. That will be very helpful for people who are considering buying the book.

If you can still fix it, I'd correct "Eliot Richardson," though he sounds like a pretty interesting guy. 8-)

I was able to edit the review and I corrected your name (and an error in the list of games you discuss). Elliot Richardson was an attorney general under Richard Nixon. Sorry for the brain fart.

For the record, Stanford Wong, who's opinion I value a great deal, posted a very positive review of 'Advanced Advantage Play', today on his BJ21 site.

I had been undecided about purchasing and reading Eliot's book. Not so much the money, but knowing that much of the information had previously been posted on Eliot's site, which I had read. There also was that linger dislike for Eliot whom I do not personally know.....the whole "traitor" thing that has gone through the blackjack community. :/ But in no small part due to Stanford's positive review, I am going to purchase Advanced Advantage Play.

Worse case scenario: If I am disappointed I will have a more valid reason for disliking Eliot. :)

Quote: kewlj

For the record, Stanford Wong, who's opinion I value a great deal, posted a very positive review of 'Advanced Advantage Play', today on his BJ21 site.

I had been undecided about purchasing and reading Eliot's book. Not so much the money, but knowing that much of the information had previously been posted on Eliot's site, which I had read. There also was that linger dislike for Eliot whom I do not personally know.....the whole "traitor" thing that has gone through the blackjack community. :/ But in no small part due to Stanford's positive review, I am going to purchase Advanced Advantage Play.

Worse case scenario: If I am disappointed I will have a more valid reason for disliking Eliot. :)

I appreciate your levelheadedness. I have great respect for Stanford and his opinion means a lot to me. I hope you will buy the book from bj21.com even though it is marginally cheaper at Amazon.

I gave it 5 stars and wrote the following, just published (which was credited by Amazon as making another sale on the book, FWIW):


Exceptional, Practical Casino Gaming Reference
April 13, 2015
Verified Purchase
I found this book to be a welcome addition to my table gaming library, both as a stand-alone read and as a reference for other works. (Disclaimer: I am a neophyte game designer and mentioned in the book.) The math behind most table games can be counter-intuitive or non-obvious, but it is essential to any intelligent play or selection of a game in a casino. I would recommend this book to players, casino operators, and especially to game designers, because it details, in very accessible language, the facts behind the curtain on games, how to beat them, and how to protect them. The math is, well, the math, and it's slightly heavy going in this book, but broken out into small and digestible parts directly relevant to the game or technique described.

For recreational players wanting a better gaming experience, this book provides the opportunity to sharply improve their play and their chances of winning. For casino operators and employees, especially those in surveillance and game protection, it details many of the reasons behind seemingly random practices and provides guidance on protection practices and procedures. For gaming designers, it's absolutely invaluable, helping them to avoid introducing or perpetuating flaws from past games into their own designs. For Advantage Players, it provides both a check on what the industry focuses on in their play, and possibly some indication of what they don't. Yet.

Dr. Jacobson starts with a series of essays that discuss gaming design, protection, and flaws in general, many of which have cost the casinos large amounts of money before they discovered inherent weaknesses or unintended applications. He gives specific examples of legal and illegal occurrences, making the book anecdotally enjoyable as well as informative; a retrospective of object lessons.

But that's just the first 7 chapters out of 135; essentially a gaming primer to familiarize the reader with the concepts. The real meat (and value) of the book is in the rest, drilling down and examining specific aspects and vulnerabilities of nearly every game played in casinos today, followed by examinations of casino practices and promotion. The chapters are well organized under larger topic headings, allowing the reader to concentrate on one particular game if that is their interest, or to use the chapter headings to find particular techniques that cross game divisions as common vulnerabilities.

Even games that are no longer being offered (some of them pulled from casinos just because of those vulnerabilities) are covered, as new games are often developed from the bones of previous creations, and the industry itself learns from those experiences. Each gaming chapter is short and specific to one aspect of one game, accompanied by tables, graphs, and strategy charts, and often including links to Dr. Jacobson's gaming website for even more detailed compilations on that particular vulnerability.

The later chapters on casino marketing and promotions cover much of what is taught in expensive seminars at gaming conventions, and probably should be required reading for all casino marketing departments. They are well beyond a one-hour course in protection, though, with the facts and the math provided to back up their assertions.

This is the book Advantage Players did not want published. There are many techniques here that are still in use by intelligent and professional gamblers to make their best run at the casinos and their vulnerabilities, and those techniques often depend on casino employees not knowing what they're looking at. Whether in the game designs themselves, exploitable marketing promotions, flawed dealing procedures, or a number of other areas, the light Dr. Jacobson shines on the industry is useful and fascinating.

Wow, thanks for your very kind words and thorough review!

Quote: MrV

You seem to be a standup guy, but I'd still wonder, if only in the abstract.

Apparently, you don't know his history!

If you win $5 from these people they chase you down the highway, you win twice and your gambling career is over. Casinos are designed for people with very low IQ level. Mostly, anytime I visit the place, I look at all type of cretins, the same when people go to a zoo and check diffe species which populate the earth.

Quote: Dicenor33

If you win $5 from these people they chase you down the highway, you win twice and your gambling career is over. Casinos are designed for people with very low IQ level. Mostly, anytime I visit the place, I look at all type of cretins, the same when people go to a zoo and check diffe species which populate the earth.

Yup, in my experience, once you're a self-proclaimed AP, you're trapped in the "only I know, and every one is lying" mind-set. Whereas a "ploppie", at least most of them, will soon see the bigger picture: Zero personal growth, zero real accomplishment, and zero long-term personal interaction. Has any professed gambler on any gambling forum ever really solved any significant problem, math or other? Mentioned doing quality stuff with the wife and kids, community, or a public agency? Or a steady raise in pay, or great experience instead of the "bum's rush" or other comparable incident? No, but the "ploppie" eventually comes around to asking, am I going to work 120 hours a week, and quietly hand it over to the casinos in the name of Mr. Monkey?

I think that Dr. Jacobson ought to write a formula for the natural attrition rate of the card counters. As with 1 in 335 players ending up with some gain after so many hands of basic strategy blackjack over a year, there will be so many counters who, for one reason or another, just didn't get 86-ed or eerily backed off. The stuff of simplistic self-deceptions like "decrease your starting wager if the cards go bad, instead of merely raising it when the cards are better". I suspect that, statistically speaking, the number of remaining AP's at any given time is too small to draw any telling conclusions. A handful of perennial strangers who make extremely vague and evasive claims about hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in winnings, and expect others (who have never been to a casino) to believe it. The mind-set thing, again.

"No one wins at the casinos," right? So the ones who do (for a while with chips in pockets) stand out like flashing neon signs. I wonder, how many counters are thrown out before beginning to pull ahead of the games? How many are lulled into playing until they lose their winnings, and then asked to leave? And, what would the casinos pay the unwitting lifer "shills" to attract legitimate players to otherwise empty tables, were it a matter of an equivalent legal amount in wages?

To my knowledge, there aren't even any experts, impartial or otherwise, who have weighed in on the AP thing in general. Lots of academic game theory, and psychology of addiction/deception, but, understandably, so very little to do with "pointing fingers".

Quote: EvenBob

... I asked how much of this book is new material and am being ignored, so I guess that's my answer.

Yes, that's okay, EB.

But, what would be a tad unethical, the submission of "testimonials" by forum members in mass - as a group with teliot as esteemed member in general - without disclaimers there to note, eg, a link to this thread. Like "stuffing the ballot box" with people who will never try to apply the material in the spirit which it is written. Over at Alan's forum, Frank Sclobette, it appears, has offered some freebies in a (discussion) thread of his latest book. Questionable also.

I will neither "bow down nor draw my sword" on this issue either, but a member endorser's noting a disclaimer or two would be the appropriate thing to do there.

Quote: Kerkebet

Yes, that's okay, EB.

But, what would be a tad unethical, the submission of "testimonials" by forum members in mass - as a group with teliot as esteemed member in general - without disclaimers there to note, eg, a link to this thread. Like "stuffing the ballot box" with people who will never try to apply the material in the spirit which it is written. Over at Alan's forum, Frank Sclobette, it appears, has offered some freebies in a (discussion) thread of his latest book. Questionable also.

I will neither "bow down nor draw my sword" on this issue either, but a member endorser's noting a disclaimer or two would be the appropriate thing to do there.

I agree with much of what you said, which is why I didn't post before I bought, received, and read the book, and the disclaimer in my post is the same in my review. I honestly think the book is a great reference, and while a lot of it is drawn from the last several years' blogs, there is a fair amount of new material, and re-evaluation (it appears) and revision of some of the blog entries with time and more information. It's also much easier to navigate than the blogs, which are chronological, and correlates a lot of the information in a useful way under sub-headings. So I think it's a worthwhile purchase.

Quote: Kerkebet

But, what would be a tad unethical, the submission of "testimonials" by forum members in mass - as a group with teliot as esteemed member in general - without disclaimers there to note, eg, a link to this thread. Like "stuffing the ballot box" with people who will never try to apply the material in the spirit which it is written.

I said early on that I don't care what the comments are, I just want those who review to have actually held the book in their hands and to have read at least part of it (it is very long). It makes no difference to me, I just want honesty. I said this same comment earlier in this thread, so forgive me for repeating myself. If you want to see stuffing, look at the very first review that was posted on Amazon.

Quote: Kerkebet

But, what would be a tad unethical, the submission of "testimonials" by forum members in mass - as a group with teliot as esteemed member in general - without disclaimers there to note, eg, a link to this thread. Like "stuffing the ballot box" with people who will never try to apply the material in the spirit which it is written.

This is pure nonsense. The book has good content and I reviewed it well because of that. I have never met teliot and I am not part of any coordinated effort to "stuff the ballot box."

I understand your personal animosity towards Mr Jacobson, but you are crossing over the line into being a bad loser who is insulting multiple forum members and accusing them of motives and actions of which they are innocent. Knock it off.

Quote: gordonm888

I understand your personal animosity towards Mr Jacobson, but you are crossing over the line into being a bad loser who is insulting multiple forum members and accusing them of motives and actions of which they are innocent.

The last time I checked, "The only person who can harm you (in that manner) on the internet forums is you," ie, given your own perceptions and intentions. (Another somewhat factual statement from me about the situation at hand?)

In other words, I would be more than happy to answer to something concrete which you may want to also quickly interject at this time. Perhaps you're right! But, I'm not going to waste the effort on what you perceive and want to believe.

I'll lead off. For what I clearly perceived to be an awkwardly cloaked or easily-confused racial remark, perhaps it was best to "put the shoe on the other foot" for a moment. The movie "Scrooge" comes to mind. An "out of body experience" could be a useful lesson for many how ever it turns out. The guy thought he meant well enough, but things didn't turn out that way. Beyond many other defenses, I could have already provided a couple examples of crystal-clear - even aggravated - administrator's precedence for the non-actionable nature of misquotation in the forum. In my estimation, that would amount to "drawing the sword". And, invariably somehow lead to the usual undesirable consequences for both "sides", if you will. Do you want this? Why?

As for teliot, of what did I accuse him (as a multiple forum member) by association and a pre-supposed animosity of mine on your part? Writing that something is a "tad unethical" or "questionable" doesn't imply such. You inferred such. I was intentionally careful to not implicate and then accuse anyone. I didn't even go look at the "testimonials" wherever. Furthermore, you have to allow for my own opinions.

In any event, there can be no fruitful debate and resolution without, well... .



Add on: See, I didn't rush to judgment with words like accusation (by and against you). Tell me specifically, what's bothering you? I contend that I have no personal investment here. The whimsical variety of topics are a stimulating exercise in connectivity for someone who focuses thought on one thing, even when the one thing inherently involves so many things.

Quote: Kerkebet

The last time I checked, "The only person who can harm you (in that manner) on the internet forums is you," ie, given your own perceptions and intentions. (Another somewhat factual statement from me about the situation at hand?)

In other words, I would be more than happy to answer to something concrete which you may want to also quickly interject at this time. Perhaps you're right! But, I'm not going to waste the effort on what you perceive and want to believe.

I'll lead off. For what I clearly perceived to be an awkwardly cloaked or easily-confused racial remark, perhaps it was best to "put the shoe on the other foot" for a moment. The movie "Scrooge" comes to mind. An "out of body experience" could be a useful lesson for many how ever it turns out. The guy thought he meant well enough, but things didn't turn out that way. Beyond many other defenses, I could have already provided a couple examples of crystal-clear - even aggravated - administrator's precedence for the non-actionable nature of misquotation in the forum. In my estimation, that would amount to "drawing the sword". And, invariably somehow lead to the usual undesirable consequences for both "sides", if you will. Do you want this? Why?

As for teliot, of what did I accuse him (as a multiple forum member) by association and a pre-supposed animosity of mine on your part? Writing that something is a "tad unethical" or "questionable" doesn't imply such. You inferred such. I was intentionally careful to not implicate and then accuse anyone. I didn't even go look at the "testimonials" wherever. Furthermore, you have to allow for my own opinions.

In any event, there can be no fruitful debate and resolution without, well... .



Add on: See, I didn't rush to judgment with words like accusation (by and against you). Tell me specifically, what's bothering you? I contend that I have no personal investment here. The whimsical variety of topics are a stimulating exercise in connectivity for someone who focuses thought on one thing, even when the one thing inherently involves so many things.

In your previous post you said that reviewers were stuffing the ballot box, and I replied that I gave an objective review and that your comment was out of line. I never claimed you were "harming" me.

In my opinion, your latest post lurches in one direction, then another, while making no obvious progress or sense. It is the semantic equivalent of a drunken sailor staggering down the street. Your references to Scrooge and "out of body experiences" are bizarre and seem unconnected to the rest of your post or to anything said by me or anyone else on this thread. I'll need to check that I'm up to date on my tetanus shots before reading another post from you.

Quote: gordonm888

In your previous post you said that reviewers were stuffing the ballot box, and I replied that I gave an objective review and that your comment was out of line.

Only if I accused you of something. And then, only if you and the mods have the same relations to all the other gambling forums and their author participants. Which I doubt in either case.

Quote: gordonm888

I understand your personal animosity towards Mr Jacobson, but you are crossing over the line into being a bad loser who is insulting multiple forum members and accusing them of motives and actions of which they are innocent. Knock it off.

Wow, you did write also that! Perhaps, the reason I responded to that part of your first diversion.

Quote: gordonm888

I'll need to check that I'm up to date on my tetanus shots before reading another post from you.

I'll reiterate, "The only person who can harm you (in that manner) on the internet forums is you." Don't bring me into it, your own drunken sailor rant.

Humor and Socratic quotes are a poor excuse for a proper response, or just saying you haven't any.

Certainly, telling me that I'm "crossing over the line into being a bad loser" isn't the a way in which I would want to defend myself, let alone other persons. I offered you the opportunity to make a specific case for yourself, but you chose to continue the, in my opinion, attack.

I guess there are a lot of double standards around here; and, that no one wants to talk about them. Fair enough if that's the way it is. It's the internet after all.

You guys are seriously hijacking a thread mr Jacobsen asked you not to. I read my copy of the book, haven't reviewed it yet, but my honest assessment is it's pretty marginal, even if there aren't many comparable works. It skims and gives just enough information on subjects for management to jump to conclusions and shoot before they aim when they can't quite understand what's going on in my opinion. If used correctly the information could cause them to look deeper into the possibility in certain issues and get further analysis, but often casinos feel they need to make snap decisions before a full evaluation when they think someone may be getting the best of them, I feel like this could make that sort of situation even worse for some casinos who jump the gun and back off losing players with not enough information.

Quote: mcallister3200

You guys are seriously hijacking a thread mr Jacobsen asked you not to. I read my copy of the book, haven't reviewed it yet, but my honest assessment is it's pretty marginal, even if there aren't many comparable works. It skims and gives just enough information on subjects for management to jump to conclusions and shoot before they aim when they can't quite understand what's going on in my opinion. If used correctly the information could cause them to look deeper into the possibility in certain issues and get further analysis, but often casinos feel they need to make snap decisions before a full evaluation when they think someone may be getting the best of them, I feel like this could make that sort of situation even worse for some casinos who jump the gun and back off losing players with not enough information.

Thank you for commenting about the hijacking. Thank you also for your thoughtful comments on my book. I hope you post that on Amazon.

Quote: mcallister3200

You guys are seriously hijacking a thread mr Jacobsen asked you not to. I read my copy of the book, haven't reviewed it yet, but my honest assessment is it's pretty marginal, even if there aren't many comparable works. It skims and gives just enough information on subjects for management to jump to conclusions and shoot before they aim when they can't quite understand what's going on in my opinion. If used correctly the information could cause them to look deeper into the possibility in certain issues and get further analysis, but often casinos feel they need to make snap decisions before a full evaluation when they think someone may be getting the best of them, I feel like this could make that sort of situation even worse for some casinos who jump the gun and back off losing players with not enough information.

To me your concern is wasted. Why waste time worrying about things that may or may not happen and have minimal affect on you. I am "Management" and take all information in and decide how I want to use it after comparing it to other information and real live situations at my casino.

Casinos don't have decision making capability. It's just a building. Gaming Directors and/or Table Games Directors make the decisions. I know of very few directors that make snap decisions. Some may make a decision people don't understand (to appease upper management or to increase hold on a table or to fix an internal issue) and some may make decisions that are not the best decisions given all the facts, but they generally do not make snap decisions.

Customers/players definitely do not have all the information when decisions are made. Pulling Three Card Poker would seem like lunacy to many customers, especially the ones that play the game. But there are reasons to do so even though players may spread the word that the Table Games Director is an idiot for removing it.

Elliot's book provides great information. It's up to the reader what they do with it.




ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

Casinos don't have decision making capability. It's just a building. Gaming Directors and/or Table Games Directors make the decisions. I know of very few directors that make snap decisions. Some may make a decision people don't understand (to appease upper management or to increase hold on a table or to fix an internal issue) and some may make decisions that are not the best decisions given all the facts, but they generally do not make snap decisions.

You hit one of my pet peeves about APs on the head with this comment. That casinos are run by people -- there is no such thing as "casinos think" or "casinos do". People who work in table games have varying degrees of skill and background. Many (not all) are intelligent, thoughtful and curious.

Although there are former APs who now work for table games and surveillance, I know of no case where a DTG has left the industry to become an AP. For this reason, the AP community makes conjectures about who people are and how things work that are often way off base or just plain wrong.

Zcore, the way you present yourself here and the thought process you display are completely reasonable and not congruent with what I have experienced from my limited interactions with those in comparable positions. In another thread a while back I made the mistake of grouping you in with my experiences with others, I apolologize for that. Moving back on topic, I would/will rate it three stars. It is ok. If I have to make an example of my criticism, in the section on holecarding 101, he mentions two games as the most vulnerable, one without a page of analysis in the book and I couldn't find another mention of the game in the book. Similar limited information on collusion. I wouldn't be concerned about a casino taking out a game because of things like this, I would be concerned about sweat the money type casinos jumping to conclusions about simply lucky players, who would potentially be desirable long term players for the casino. Again, the book should be useful if used properly and there isn't a whole lot of comparable material.

Quote: mcallister3200

Zcore, the way you present yourself here and the thought process you display are completely reasonable and not congruent with what I have experienced from my limited interactions with those in comparable positions. In another thread a while back I made the mistake of grouping you in with my experiences with others, I apolologize for that. Moving back on topic, I would/will rate it three stars. It is ok. If I have to make an example of my criticism, in the section on holecarding 101, he mentions two games as the most vulnerable, one without a page of analysis in the book and I couldn't find another mention of the game in the book. Similar limited information on collusion. I wouldn't be concerned about a casino taking out a game because of things like this, I would be concerned about sweat the money type casinos jumping to conclusions about simply lucky players, who would potentially be desirable long term players for the casino. Again, the book should be useful if used properly and there isn't a whole lot of comparable material.

Thank you for the compliment. I have no horse in the race with this book, I just think calling it marginal after seeing how much information is in it was a bit over the top. Had he not had his website and all of us here (which is probably 1/10th of 1% of people interested in this type of book) had seen a lot of the information, this book would be getting probably be getting even more rave reviews. We here are a very small group.

The work he put into all the games is amazing. Your criticism of the two points you mentioned may well be valid and I have no problem, as I'm sure Elliot doesn't, with your opinion and/or criticism on that.

I agree on the sweat joint issue also, although I think they are becoming more scarce as a younger generation takes over Director positions. It has been my experience that if I focus on my side of the table, proper training, quality staff, attentive supervisors, solid game protection procedures, the numbers do what they should do and there is nothing to worry about. When everything on my side of the table is working as it should and staff is doing what they are supposed to, the very rare customer who is either spreading a large amount or trying to cheat in some way sticks out like a sore thumb.


ZCore13

Quote: Kerkebet

Yup, in my experience, once you're a self-proclaimed AP, you're trapped in the "only I know, and every one is lying" mind-set. Whereas a "ploppie", at least most of them, will soon see the bigger picture: Zero personal growth, zero real accomplishment, and zero long-term personal interaction. Has any professed gambler on any gambling forum ever really solved any significant problem, math or other? Mentioned doing quality stuff with the wife and kids, community, or a public agency? Or a steady raise in pay, or great experience instead of the "bum's rush" or other comparable incident? No, but the "ploppie" eventually comes around to asking, am I going to work 120 hours a week, and quietly hand it over to the casinos in the name of Mr. Monkey?

Cruel, and not 100% accurate, but has a kernel of truth to it . . .

BBB, I'm glad I was able to read your opinions about flatware as well. I myself am a fan of Anchor Hocking's "Zone 2" 18/0 set. Bought two for my mom.