Twirdman
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December 14th, 2014 at 9:54:56 PM permalink
Quote: Sabretom2

Define torture.



Are we honestly going to argue that what was done to detainees wasn't torture? Plenty of international law spells out many of the things we did as torture including United Nations Convention against Torture as well as previous laws upheld by the US in regard to things like waterboarding. What happened was clearly torture and as been seen as such by multiple courts and anyone trying to argue otherwise really has no leg to stand on.
petroglyph
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December 14th, 2014 at 10:13:09 PM permalink
Nice infographic on derivative [insurance] exposure.

http://demonocracy.info/infographics/usa/derivatives/bank_exposure.html

From wikepedia:Size of market[edit]
<To give an idea of the size of the derivative market, The Economist magazine has reported that as of June 2011, the over-the-counter (OTC) derivatives market amounted to approximately $700 trillion, and the size of the market traded on exchanges totaled an additional $83 trillion.>

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-12/kohler-controlling-derivatives/5515666

<And last week the Bank for International Settlements revealed that the amount of over-the-counter (OTC) derivatives outstanding reached $US710 trillion at the end of 2013, a 12 per cent increase on the year before.>

JPM's exposure was Bear Stearns before it went under.

Chemtrails?
petroglyph
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December 14th, 2014 at 10:23:19 PM permalink
Quote: Sabretom2

Define torture.

The UN definition of torture:http://www.irct.org/what-is-torture/defining-torture.aspx

Torture is when an enemy does it.

Enhanced interrogation is when we do it.
jetermacaw
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December 15th, 2014 at 7:27:28 AM permalink
For my libtard friends out there.

If you think water boarding is too inhumane.... don't be a terrorist.
beachbumbabs
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December 15th, 2014 at 8:03:01 AM permalink
Quote: jetermacaw

For my libtard friends out there.

If you think water boarding is too inhumane.... don't be a terrorist.



jeter,

Find a different word than "libtard". Very insulting. We can have a vigorous discussion from all points of view without that kind of rudeness towards those posting. Thanks.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
speedycrap
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December 15th, 2014 at 8:51:05 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

jeter,

Find a different word than "libtard". Very insulting. We can have a vigorous discussion from all points of view without that kind of rudeness towards those posting. Thanks.

libtard". Yes, find something else please. Discussion is welcome but "libtard" is not.
SanchoPanza
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December 15th, 2014 at 9:37:55 AM permalink
Quote: jetermacaw

If you think water boarding is too inhumane.... don't be a terrorist.

And halt the practice of administering it to our very own troops.
rxwine
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December 15th, 2014 at 10:31:52 AM permalink
Quote: SanchoPanza

And halt the practice of administering it to our very own troops.



You mean volunteers, who sign up for harsh training.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
Gandler
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December 15th, 2014 at 11:08:34 AM permalink
Quote: petroglyph



How do you get from here to thinking I don't understand Neoconservatism?


You constantly misrepresent it and label people as NeoCons who are anything but.

Quote:

You still won't tell me who or how all this foreign conflicts will be payed for, I am still waiting.


What "all of these wars" am I pushing for?
I have not pushed for one war all thread, only defended some of the ones we were involved with (which are now over and will be fully over in the next 2 years). And, defended some actions which are now also in the past.


Quote:

You say neocon started off [or you] being liberal, how does a liberal want foreign conflicts?



I was never liberal in the modern sense (I have been a registered Republican since my 18th Birthday). Perhaps Classical liberal, which is essentially what NeoCon is socially. But NeoCons believe in the Free Market. And in National Strength. But the main feature is we believe in encouraging Western Values in the developing world, which is certainly a good thing not just for us, but even more so for the residents in these countries who have been oppressed for centuries.

But we (NeoCons) never "want" a war. But we want to defend social freedom, which means we should overturn oppressive dictatorships. And, spread western values with soft power and hard power if need be. This does not mean war (unless emergency) but encourage countries to modernize and reform with education programs and sanctions and blockades to punish out of line countries. War should only be a last resort in emergency or to assist a close ally in distress.
petroglyph
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December 15th, 2014 at 12:55:39 PM permalink
Quote: Gandler

Quote:

You constantly misrepresent it and label people as NeoCons who are anything but.

You sir are a difficult case.:) OK, I will type it slowly.

These are your words:< That is pretty accurate summary (as far as foreign policy) though I am less pessimistic than you.>I according to you, can at least cut and paste a close proximity to what you think of as "neocon". Other than yourself you can only name one true believer and he is British. Thanks for acknowledging my pessimism, but I think that has just been by experience. I more like to think of myself as cynical. :)

Quote:

What "all of these wars" am I pushing for?

We have beat this up so much I don't know anymore. Are we talking only "declared" wars, which were few or apparent wars which to those on the bitter end have been many? I don't believe I used the term "All these wars", I believe I used "all these conflicts". What do you want to call all of the actions where our guys are armed, world policing? Pick some term that works for everybody, kinetic diplomacy comes to mind.

I did use this upthread < In all these disputes that you want us to get into, where the hell is the money suppose to come from?>There I used the term dispute, I've used conflict often. Now I am using "kinetic diplomacy", we could use a fresh new term. I notice the presstitutes do the same thing, dance around with semantics and argue the difference in assigned values to the meanings of the terms. If a bomb lands on your house in your country and you and your family are only trying to avoid the "kinetic action" for you and your family, the term that will be used in the press to describe what happened will mean very little.

Quote:

I have not pushed for one war all thread, only defended some of the ones we were involved with (which are now over and will be fully over in the next 2 years)

What will be over in two years? If you are speaking of our armed and engaged presence in Afghanistan or Iraq or elsewhere in MENA, it will never be over, not as long as there is wealth to extract by the parasites.

Quote:

I was never liberal in the modern sense (I have been a registered Republican since my 18th Birthday). Perhaps Classical liberal, which is essentially what NeoCon is socially. But NeoCons believe in the Free Market. And in National Strength. But the main feature is we believe

[Who is this we? You are the only one of your kind in the US, and one in the UK] in encouraging Western Values in the developing world, [at the end of a gun] which is certainly a good thing not just for us, but even more so for the residents in these countries who have been oppressed for centuries. That to me is just bizarre, we didn't even speak out while 2 million Rwandan's were hacked to death, [oddly enough while HRC was talking about gun control/confiscation] while the UN was present.

Who gets to choose our friends and how? There was nothing to extract from the Rwandans for the bankers so they didn't need democracy, simple. Unless, you were Hutu or Tutsi. It makes me think there is no oil under Rwanda? Check out Jackson Browne;http://youtu.be/VPFdbKLUmQk, for your listening pleasure. Education by art. :)

Quote:

But we (NeoCons) never "want" a war. "War" is just diplomacy [wealth extraction] by other means.

But we want to defend social freedom, which means we should overturn oppressive dictatorships.[/q[

Try to imagine being an innocent, Iraqi, Libyan, Afghan, Paki, or native indian American in the 1700's. Look at it from someone else's eyes. You say you are an Atheist, then religion shouldn't matter. Who do you think they see as the oppressor? The Shah of Iran [an American puppet] which admittedly our cia installed, murdered a million Iranians. This is public knowledge. Just because it is an inconvenient truth does not make it a "conspiracy".

edit; "Lives in the Balance" full album http://youtu.be/d0YjNUSosms
petroglyph
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December 15th, 2014 at 1:18:52 PM permalink
A Mark Twain quote:

"Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you gain at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his own tail. It won't fatten the dog"

We can't bomb people into agreeing with our western philosophy.

Is it time for a martyr joke yet? I think so.

So, these two older Muslims are talking to each other. The first one pulls out a photo of his son, and he says; this is my son, he is a martyr. He was 19.

The second one looks and pulls out a picture of his son and says; this is my son, he is a martyr also. He was 16.

The first one says to the second one; "they blow up so fast don't they"?

That is why not only with puppies but with warriors it is most effective to get hold of them while they are still young. Their hearts and minds are still malleable. There is a reason why tptb don't try to teach old guys like me anything. However, when people have nothing left to lose, the only thing left is vengeance. I have said before we are creating a legion of martyrs who think the west has deprived them of their entire belief, religion, culture and family. What would you do if you were certain your life as you knew it is over until you die?
Gandler
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December 15th, 2014 at 1:27:16 PM permalink
Quote: petroglyph

You sir are a difficult case.:) OK, I will type it slowly.

These are your words:< That is pretty accurate summary (as far as foreign policy) though I am less pessimistic than you.>I according to you, can at least cut and paste a close proximity to what you think of as "neocon". Other than yourself you can only name one true believer and he is British. Thanks for acknowledging my pessimism, but I think that has just been by experience. I more like to think of myself as cynical. :)



I don't think any reasonable person would say that I am the one being difficult. I made my views and definition very clear.

Yes in that statement in which your quote was a reply from you were fairly correct.

However, you in later posts described all sorts of people as NeoCons who are not only not Neocons but who have nothing in common with NeoCons. And at one point said increasing the debt and printing money was part of the NeoCon agenda which is not only untrue, is almost he polar opposite, so my statement that you did not fully grasp the concept was fair to say.

And, yes there are very very few of us. And even fewer public figures. Douglas Murray is the one public figure I name who is a "True Belivier" (your term not mine), as he is constiant, socially, militarily, and on foreign policy. So he is one of the only people I can say who can fairly be called a NeoCon by a strict definition on all issues.

Trust me I also wish I could name more, the world would be better if there were than just a handful of us.

Quote:

We have beat this up so much I don't know anymore. Are we talking only "declared" wars, which were few or apparent wars which to those on the bitter end have been many? I don't believe I used the term "All these wars", I believe I used "all these conflicts". What do you want to call all of the actions where our guys are armed, world policing? Pick some term that works for everybody, kinetic diplomacy comes to mind.

I did use this upthread < In all these disputes that you want us to get into, where the hell is the money suppose to come from?>There I used the term dispute, I've used conflict often. Now I am using "kinetic diplomacy", we could use a fresh new term. I notice the presstitutes do the same thing, dance around with semantics and argue the difference in assigned values to the meanings of the terms. If a bomb lands on your house in your country and you and your family are only trying to avoid the "kinetic action" for you and your family, the term that will be used in the press to describe what happened will mean very little.



Fair enough. No point arguing over perceived semantics.

Quote:

What will be over in two years? If you are speaking of our armed and engaged presence in Afghanistan or Iraq or elsewhere in MENA, it will never be over, not as long as there is wealth to extract by the parasites.



Afghanistan will be fully withdrawn in 2 years, Iraq is done. We will always have a presence at some bases in the Middle East most likely, but that is for security and to respond to emergency not for an active role.

Though yes ISIS needs to be eliminated. But I hope Iraq and the Kurds can take care of that with outside assistance I don't want to get back into Iraq in a ground war.



Quote:

Who gets to choose our friends and how? There was nothing to extract from the Rwandans for the bankers so they didn't need democracy, simple. Unless, you were Hutu or Tutsi. It makes me think there is no oil under Rwanda? Check out Jackson Browne;http://youtu.be/VPFdbKLUmQk, for your listening pleasure. Education by art. :)



We as American voters and are elected politicians do.

And, I agree 100% it is pathetic we did nothing to stop that genocide. But I was a small child at the time so I surely cannot be blamed for not pushing for it or being an active demonstrator.

I think we need to be much more active in the development of certain countries in Africa.

It is also a great example of why many times America needs to act without U.N. approval since the U.N. majorly failed on that.

Quote:

Try to imagine being an innocent, Iraqi, Libyan, Afghan, Paki, or native indian American in the 1700's. Look at it from someone else's eyes. You say you are an Atheist, then religion shouldn't matter. Who do you think they see as the oppressor? The Shah of Iran [an American puppet] which admittedly our cia installed, murdered a million Iranians. This is public knowledge. Just because it is an inconvenient truth does not make it a "conspiracy".



As I have said before, yes, we and Europe, and many other countries, have made many mistakes.
However, you are ignoring the point that drone attacks (which I am sure is what you are referring to in innocents being killed in those countries) are more precise than ground forces and local police storming through the villages looking for the suspect.

I am an atheist. But religion does matter. Because religion (wrongfully as per my view and the true NeoCon philosophy) has too much influence on politics. And religion certainly has an influence on suicide bombers. There are some religions where being a terrorists is permissible.

I hate to go back into this territory but its a great example of the differences in religion. Look at the Isreali alleged "occupation". Their are many Palestinians who are Christians, and Druids, and Secularists (to a lesser extent but there are some). How many of the Palestinian terrorists committing attacks are Christian or Druid Palestinians, or Secularists? They are all suffering the same laws and same alleged mistreatment. Yet the terrorists and attackers in Palestine are exclusively one religion, I am not going to name that religion for fear of being labeled a bigot, but you can evaluate the statistics yourself.

Not all religions are the same. Religions are essentially a philosophy so yes which one you follow (or don't follow) influences you a lot, more so than regular philopshies because if you believe you are following the whims of an unlimited powerful deity you feel that you are always the right one regardless of the effects you have on others.
SanchoPanza
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December 15th, 2014 at 1:31:40 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

You mean volunteers, who sign up for harsh training.

How quickly people forget the draft. We must wonder about registration percentages. Draftees undergo being gassed and facing live fire.

At any rate, those three who were waterboarded are more than just "volunteers." They are strategists and leaders of global terrorist operations. Quite a difference there. One that does not seem to be duly appreciated.
petroglyph
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December 15th, 2014 at 2:35:35 PM permalink
Gandler, I blame you for nothing.

I admire that you have put yourself on the line for what you believe. There is no animosity here, just opinions, ok? I want you and everyone around you when you come home to be unscathed.

I don't think anyone on this forum would think you a biggot if you said it is the Muslims who are the terrorists, or suicide martyrs. Me, I'm an infidel, and proud to be. I just don't want us to be the world police. If I had my way we would kick the UN out of this country, and move it to Africa to one of the poorest nations to help their economy? They are a subversive bunch of spies anyway. They can gtfo.

I chose the Rwandan example partly because of that snippet I added about Hillary. She [well before your time, and no implied culpability] was tasked by Bill to formulate a national health care plan. It was a disaster. I actually had a copy of the presidential notes which had within as part of her "health care plan", gun confiscation. She disgusts me, on so may levels. Not the least of which was her non-retribution for Vince Foster, she had the power and the means. I realize that should she be a national candidate again, my hope for my concept of America is pretty much doomed.

It already is anyway. With over 100 trillion in unfunded liabilities and interest on the National debt alone IIRC around 45% of what the .gov receives in taxes [payed to bankers who are sitting on billions of fresh fiat money collecting interest also], something big will change. Sorry my generation couldn't hand it off to yours in better shape.

As an aside, which has nothing to do with you, I found this interesting. From Reuters;In other words US taxpayers are now paying for military missions, in which US taxpayer paid-for warplans and missiles are used to blow up other US taxpayer paid-for tanks, artillery, MRAPs, and various other weapons of death.

Here is a closer look at the method behind the Keynesian madness from Reuters:<U.S. warplanes are flying sorties, at a cost somewhere between $22,000 to 30,000 per hour for the F-16s, to drop bombs that cost at least $20,000 each, to destroy this captured equipment.

That means if an F-16 were to take off from Incirclik Air Force Base in Turkey and fly two hours to Erbil, Iraq, and successfully drop both of its bombs on one target each, it costs the United States somewhere between $84,000 to $104,000 for the sortie and destroys a minimum of $1 million and a maximum of $12 million in U.S.-made equipment.> That is all borrowed money, [with interest], the money isn't there.

I don't recall the author but they quipped "things that can't be paid won't be". It is that simple. The promises we have made to our citizens cannot mathematically cannot be paid.

Who said about the definition of insanity [Einstein?] doing something the same way and expecting different results, we need a new plan. We cannot afford this one.
rxwine
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December 15th, 2014 at 2:48:24 PM permalink
Quote: SanchoPanza

Quote: rxwine

You mean volunteers, who sign up for harsh training.

How quickly people forget the draft. We must wonder about registration percentages. Draftees undergo being gassed and facing live fire.



What do you think is the difference between torture and not-torture?

A man pacing himself by running behind a vehicle versus a man chained to a vehicle forced to run. There is an important factor of intensity and duration. But that's about it.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
Face
Administrator
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December 15th, 2014 at 3:22:18 PM permalink
Quote: petroglyph

...my hope for my concept of America is pretty much doomed.



My generation is just coming of age. 5 more years and we will begin taking over and taking control of this nation.

Doomed? You ain't seen nothing yet.
The opinions of this moderator are for entertainment purposes only.
rxwine
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December 15th, 2014 at 3:26:49 PM permalink
Quote: Face

My generation is just coming of age. 5 more years and we will begin taking over and taking control of this nation.

Doomed? You ain't seen nothing yet.



Just got a mental pic of Simpson's Mr. Burns rubbing hands together.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
petroglyph
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December 15th, 2014 at 4:01:23 PM permalink
Quote: Face

My generation is just coming of age. 5 more years and we will begin taking over and taking control of this nation.

Doomed? You ain't seen nothing yet.



Attributed to Jefferson, Quotation: "If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered...I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies... The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs."

The Federal Reserve isn't federal, it is a privately held corporation, and it is difficult to find the owners. The current currency in the US [fiat] is not constitutional money and has lost over 97% of it's value since 1913.
Gandler
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December 15th, 2014 at 4:04:20 PM permalink
Quote: petroglyph

Gandler, I blame you for nothing.

I admire that you have put yourself on the line for what you believe. There is no animosity here, just opinions, ok? I want you and everyone around you when you come home to be unscathed.



Thanks, I never thought you did or were, I can tell you believe what you say, I like when people are honest and stand for what they think even if I disagree (which is why I still like Ron Paul even if I disagree) but I am a passionate person, so that often carries into debates, I frequently offend people in college and life when debating people (which is not hard when surrounded by liberals). I'm not a hateful person (though where I am it is currently 3AM, so if my posts seem concise or rude it is probably more so a case of hasty typing while working late than the intent to offend, I work nights so that is why I often post at weird hours, well weird for me, I guess it still afternoonish depending where you live in the States)

Quote:

I don't think anyone on this forum would think you a biggot if you said it is the Muslims who are the terrorists, or suicide martyrs. Me, I'm an infidel, and proud to be. I just don't want us to be the world police. If I had my way we would kick the UN out of this country, and move it to Africa to one of the poorest nations to help their economy? They are a subversive bunch of spies anyway. They can gtfo.



People frequently do (not on this forum per say, though some people have come close), but in life. Its hard to have a rational debate when you make a statistical point and the instant response is "Racist" (as frequently happens with crime issues) or "Islamaophobe" (as frequently happens with this issue). Again not aimed at anyone here, but these are generic responses people give anytime somebody brings up a valid point about Religious Views.

I know this is a cheap point, but I would be willing to bet I probably personally know far more Muslims, not just in America but in the Middle East, from a combination of college, travel, and the military than the large majority of posters here, certainly more than the "Politically Correct Progressives" who frequently try to speak for people who they know nothing about.

But you may be surprised how many Muslims and Arabs or all religions agree with my views, far more than many Americans I personally know.

Social Progressives in the Middle East want change more than anyone.



Quote:

It already is anyway. With over 100 trillion in unfunded liabilities and interest on the National debt alone IIRC around 45% of what the .gov receives in taxes [payed to bankers who are sitting on billions of fresh fiat money collecting interest also], something big will change. Sorry my generation couldn't hand it off to yours in better shape.


This point is pushing an open door, no argument from me.


Quote:

As an aside, which has nothing to do with you, I found this interesting. From Reuters;In other words US taxpayers are now paying for military missions, in which US taxpayer paid-for warplans and missiles are used to blow up other US taxpayer paid-for tanks, artillery, MRAPs, and various other weapons of death.

Here is a closer look at the method behind the Keynesian madness from Reuters:<U.S. warplanes are flying sorties, at a cost somewhere between $22,000 to 30,000 per hour for the F-16s, to drop bombs that cost at least $20,000 each, to destroy this captured equipment.

That means if an F-16 were to take off from Incirclik Air Force Base in Turkey and fly two hours to Erbil, Iraq, and successfully drop both of its bombs on one target each, it costs the United States somewhere between $84,000 to $104,000 for the sortie and destroys a minimum of $1 million and a maximum of $12 million in U.S.-made equipment.> That is all borrowed money, [with interest], the money isn't there.



I agree undoubtedly a result of a mix of of lobbying by certain corporations and bad withdrawal and equipment handoff policies.

But I don't buy that it is a massive conspiracy, just a mix of bad politicans and bad money management. And people responsible for buying gear that have no clue what it is used for.

Quote:

I don't recall the author but they quipped "things that can't be paid won't be". It is that simple. The promises we have made to our citizens cannot mathematically cannot be paid.


I agree, much that needs to be restructured. I think there should be a federal law requiring the balance of budgets before signing a budget (like most reasonable states have).

Quote:

Who said about the definition of insanity [Einstein?] doing something the same way and expecting different results, we need a new plan. We cannot afford this one.



I also agree (and yes that is who said that, another person I enjoy reading).

But NeoCons cannot be blamed for the plan we have now (or have ever had). Since no true NeoCon has been in power in the last 50 years probably longer, maybe if I did enough research on some Presidents in the 1800s I could label one or two as likely NeoCons (even though the term was not around yet), but that is so long in history its almost irrelevant to modern politics other than historical interest and philopshy comparison.



Quote: petroglyph

A Mark Twain quote:

"Every time you stop a school, you will have to build a jail. What you gain at one end you lose at the other. It's like feeding a dog on his own tail. It won't fatten the dog"


I agree 100%. Great Quote. I love Mark Twain.

But doesn't this go against your view of getting rid of formalized education?

Quote:

We can't bomb people into agreeing with our western philosophy.



I also agree with this. But we have to bomb people who are causing problems in allied countries especially if the local government wants us to.

Quote:

That is why not only with puppies but with warriors it is most effective to get hold of them while they are still young. Their hearts and minds are still malleable. There is a reason why tptb don't try to teach old guys like me anything. However, when people have nothing left to lose, the only thing left is vengeance. I have said before we are creating a legion of martyrs who think the west has deprived them of their entire belief, religion, culture and family. What would you do if you were certain your life as you knew it is over until you die?



Nobody wants to make martyrs or kill innocents (well except for some terrorists organization who thrive on it).

But I don't agree that people who lose their culture should go for vengeance. Most of the terrorists who despise the West don't like the West not for bombing, not even for Isreal, but for our ending of certain terrors we did. Al Queda's original beef for the west and one of the main (according to them) reasons for the attacks was our stopping of the Muslim genocide in Indonesia.
-The point is people will always find ways to make matrys even with no logical rationale. But its far easier when you are the follower of a religion who says your actions are right, and that's not a direct shot at Islam (though it is a valid point of critique in many cases involving terrorists who claim to be Muslims), but I say the same about Christian organizations who push laws persecuting homosexuals etc...


NeoConservatives (true ones) would agree with many of your points (except for the conspiracy aspects), but the main disagreement is the way to solve them. Sometimes we do need to Police the World especially when as the valid points you made about Rwanda, if we don't who will? Obviously not the U.N.... And the French Army did nothing other than help the local French citizens.

For better or for worst America has evolved into one of the only countries in the Modern World who can fill that role.
Because despite critiiscm which claims to the contrary (wrongfully), America is one of the few Superpowers who can liberate countries without colonizing them.
What would happen if China removed Saddam? They certainly would not be an indepenant country right now.
EvenBob
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December 15th, 2014 at 4:15:40 PM permalink
Quote: petroglyph


The Federal Reserve isn't federal, it is a privately held corporation, and it is difficult to find the owners. .



It was started in 1913 by the Morgans, Astors, DuPonts,
Guggenheims, Vanderbilts and Rockefellers. They wanted
to control the worlds banks and they still do. The Four
Horsemen of banking, Bank of America, JP Morgan Chase,
Citigroup and Wells Fargo, which are always among the
top ten stockholders in most of the Fortune 500 companies.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
petroglyph
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December 15th, 2014 at 4:34:07 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

It was started in 1913 by the Morgans, Astors, DuPonts,
Guggenheims, Vanderbilts and Rockefellers. They wanted
to control the worlds banks and they still do. The Four
Horsemen of banking, Bank of America, JP Morgan Chase,
Citigroup and Wells Fargo, which are always among the
top ten stockholders in most of the Fortune 500 companies.



It's funny, when lists are compiled of the who's who, or on the Forbes list of the richest. Those names are not on there.

Have you perhaps read the book, "The creature from Jeckyll Island"?

Another [among many] resources was F.O.E.M., or even Martin Armstrongs story.

I guess Gandler isn't going to let me slide out from some "conspiracist" title, so maybe you can answer a question for me. You seem knowledgeable.

Two things, both involving your personal checks, or any check I have looked at. The easy one is why is the name in the upper left always in all Capitols?

The second even more conspiratorial is this. Take a look at the signature line on your check, under a good magnifying lense or magnify it until you can see what it is, it is not a line. What honest reason can there be for what you find there??
EvenBob
EvenBob
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December 15th, 2014 at 4:49:26 PM permalink
Quote: petroglyph

What honest reason can there be for what you find there??



It's a security measure, if you make a
photocopy of a blank check it can't
copy the small print that is the sig
line.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
petroglyph
petroglyph
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December 15th, 2014 at 4:59:55 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

It's a security measure, if you make a
photocopy of a blank check it can't
copy the small print that is the sig
line.



Who would know? Nobody I have talked with yet knew it wasn't a line.
EvenBob
EvenBob
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December 15th, 2014 at 5:02:01 PM permalink
You're not supposed to know, that's how
they catch people.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
petroglyph
petroglyph
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December 15th, 2014 at 5:07:05 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

You're not supposed to know, that's how
they catch people.



Your "signature" doesn't even have to be your name. Cheques are kited all the time. I have asked bankers and it's the first they heard of it.

Back to why is the name in the upper left, all caps?
EvenBob
EvenBob
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December 15th, 2014 at 5:50:57 PM permalink
Quote: petroglyph


Back to why is the name in the upper left, all caps?



Your name is in caps on your documents, DL, SS, mortgage,
checks, credit cards. If it's not all caps it's not legal.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
bw
bw
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December 15th, 2014 at 8:05:14 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Your name is in caps on your documents, DL, SS, mortgage,
checks, credit cards. If it's not all caps it's not legal.



LOL
petroglyph
petroglyph
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December 16th, 2014 at 3:38:50 PM permalink
Vice President Biden gives his condolences for killed American in Yemen, Somers.

http://youtu.be/Aoj4xG0iDZA

We can count on Joe to do whats right, especially considering his son went to work in Ukraine as CEO of the energy company.

Son Hunter fails coke test, but runs Ukrainian oil conglomerate, go figure.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/bidens-son-hunter-discharged-from-navy-reserve-after-failing-cocaine-test-1413499657
Zcore13
Zcore13
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December 16th, 2014 at 5:55:23 PM permalink
UPDATE:

141 students were massacred by the Taliban yesterday. If we captured one of them I would torture the guy until the cows come home if it has a chance to give information to stop the group from doing it again. Hell, I'd stream it on the internet and tell them if you do this type of thing again, every one of you will get this treatment, even if we catch you all at the same time.

The problem is they don't mind dying for their (delusional) cause. But I guarantee you they don't want to be tortured.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
Gandler
Gandler
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December 16th, 2014 at 6:08:02 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

UPDATE:

141 students were massacred by the Taliban yesterday. If we captured one of them I would torture the guy until the cows come home if it has a chance to give information to stop the group from doing it again. Hell, I'd stream it on the internet and tell them if you do this type of thing again, every one of you will get this treatment, even if we catch you all at the same time.

The problem is they don't mind dying for their (delusional) cause. But I guarantee you they don't want to be tortured.


ZCore13



The sad part is the people who constantly speak out against Drone Attacks and information gathering techniques don't realize the horrible things that happen when they are not used.

There is a reason a lot of countries not only don't mind but like us operating drones and other methods in their countries. Not only does it save their police and military time and money, it saves their lives. Nobody hates and despises terrorists and religious loons more than people who have to live with them, especially if they are developing countries without the organization or resources to deal with it.
rxwine
rxwine
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December 16th, 2014 at 6:21:49 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

. Hell, I'd stream it on the internet and tell them if you do this type of thing again, every one of you will get this treatment, even if we catch you all at the same time.



That's actually a different use of torture, then just to gain information..

I was going to agree it is effective, but upon second thought, every single ISIS member probably knows what will happen if Assad's forces capture one of them alive. That hasn't stopped them from fighting him.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
beachbumbabs
beachbumbabs
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December 16th, 2014 at 8:24:37 PM permalink
Quote: petroglyph

It's funny, when lists are compiled of the who's who, or on the Forbes list of the richest. Those names are not on there.

Quote: EB

It was started in 1913 by the Morgans, Astors, DuPonts,
Guggenheims, Vanderbilts and Rockefellers.






As it happens, half of them are:

The 25 Richest People of All Time:
◾#1 Mansa Musa I – Net Worth $400 Billion
◾#2 The Rothschild Family – $350 Billion
◾#3 John D. Rockefeller – Net Worth $340 Billion
◾#4 Andrew Carnegie – Net Worth $310 Billion
◾#5 Nikolai Alexandrovich Romanov – Net Worth $300 Billion
◾#6 Mir Osman Ali Khan – Net Worth $230 billion
◾#7 William The Conqueror – Net Worth $229.5 Billion
◾#8 Muammar Gaddafi – Net Worth $200 Billion
◾#9 Henry Ford – Net Worth $199 Billion
◾#10 Cornelius Vanderbilt – Net Worth $185 Billion
◾#11 Alan Rufus – $178.65 billion
◾#12 Bill Gates – Net Worth $136 Billion
◾#13 William de Warenne – Net Worth $147.13 Billion
◾#14 John Jacob Astor – Net Worth $121 Billion
◾#15 Richard Fitzalan 10th Earl of Arundel – Net Worth $118.6 Billion
◾#16 John of Gaunt – Net Worth $110 Billion
◾#17 Stephen Girard – Net Worth $105 Billion
◾#18 A.T. Stewart – Net Wort $90 Billion
◾#19 Henry Duke of Lancaster – Net Worth $85.1 Billion
◾#20 Friedrich Weyerhauser – Net Worth $80 Billion
◾#21 Jay Gould – Net Worth $71 Billion
◾#22 Carlos Slim Helu – Net Worth $68 Billion
◾#22 Stephen Van Rensselaer – Net Worth $68 Billion
◾#23 Marshall Field – Net Worth $66 Billion
◾#24 Sam Walton – Net Worth $65 Billion
◾#25 Warren Buffett – Net Worth $64 Billion

source: celebritynetworth.com
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
petroglyph
petroglyph
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December 16th, 2014 at 9:29:09 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

As it happens, half of them are:

The 25 Richest People of All Time:
◾#1 Mansa Musa I – Net Worth $400 Billion
◾#2 The Rothschild Family – $350 Billion
◾#3 John D. Rockefeller – Net Worth $340 Billion
◾#4 Andrew Carnegie – Net Worth $310 Billion
◾#5 Nikolai Alexandrovich Romanov – Net Worth $300 Billion
◾#6 Mir Osman Ali Khan – Net Worth $230 billion
◾#7 William The Conqueror – Net Worth $229.5 Billion
◾#8 Muammar Gaddafi – Net Worth $200 Billion
◾#9 Henry Ford – Net Worth $199 Billion
◾#10 Cornelius Vanderbilt – Net Worth $185 Billion
◾#11 Alan Rufus – $178.65 billion
◾#12 Bill Gates – Net Worth $136 Billion
◾#13 William de Warenne – Net Worth $147.13 Billion
◾#14 John Jacob Astor – Net Worth $121 Billion
◾#15 Richard Fitzalan 10th Earl of Arundel – Net Worth $118.6 Billion
◾#16 John of Gaunt – Net Worth $110 Billion
◾#17 Stephen Girard – Net Worth $105 Billion
◾#18 A.T. Stewart – Net Wort $90 Billion
◾#19 Henry Duke of Lancaster – Net Worth $85.1 Billion
◾#20 Friedrich Weyerhauser – Net Worth $80 Billion
◾#21 Jay Gould – Net Worth $71 Billion
◾#22 Carlos Slim Helu – Net Worth $68 Billion
◾#22 Stephen Van Rensselaer – Net Worth $68 Billion
◾#23 Marshall Field – Net Worth $66 Billion
◾#24 Sam Walton – Net Worth $65 Billion
◾#25 Warren Buffett – Net Worth $64 Billion

source: celebritynetworth.com



Heck of a list when Sam Walton is at the bottom. It's almost funny Buffett is in last place, with a mere 64 billion.
petroglyph
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December 16th, 2014 at 10:18:38 PM permalink
U.S. TV PROVIDES AMPLE PLATFORM FOR AMERICAN TORTURERS, BUT NONE TO THEIR VICTIMS, Somebody had to say it.

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/12/16/u-s-tv-media-gives-ample-platform-american-torturers-victims/


"What this glaring omission in coverage does more than anything else is conclusively expose the utter fraud of the U.S. media’s claims to “objectivity” and “neutrality.”
Gandler
Gandler
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December 16th, 2014 at 11:17:02 PM permalink
Quote: petroglyph

U.S. TV PROVIDES AMPLE PLATFORM FOR AMERICAN TORTURERS, BUT NONE TO THEIR VICTIMS, Somebody had to say it.

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/12/16/u-s-tv-media-gives-ample-platform-american-torturers-victims/


"What this glaring omission in coverage does more than anything else is conclusively expose the utter fraud of the U.S. media’s claims to “objectivity” and “neutrality.”



I am not sure that TV is to blame. Is the media suppose to force them to come on air? As the article says they are being represented by their appropriate lawyers, so it's very likely they have legal advise saying what they should and should do (particularly regarding the media and publicity). I don't think anyone is stopping them from doing an interview.
SanchoPanza
SanchoPanza
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December 17th, 2014 at 6:47:17 AM permalink
Quote: Gandler

I don't think anyone is stopping them from doing an interview.

Their reluctance is entirely understandable, considering their remarkably high recidivism rate.
terapined
terapined
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June 11th, 2015 at 6:45:12 AM permalink
Quote: terapined

Going off topic here but what long thread doesn't from time to time.

Christopher Lee is a total badass, in a good way.
Most actors are all about pretend.
Christopher Lee is the real deal. He walked the walk.
Thanks, love him in the Rings and other movies.
Never knew this about him.
Wow, I am impressed.
Thanks Gandler.



RIP Christopher Lee
Will miss Saruman, Count Dooku and Dracula
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