SanchoPanza
SanchoPanza
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December 12th, 2014 at 1:45:35 PM permalink
Quote: Dicenor33

The info obtained would probably be outdated since the perpetrator is in captivity already and accomplices would probably alter their plans accordingly.

Even "outdated" intelligence proved highly useful in finding bin Laden. After all, bin Laden was relying on his longtime courier and driver for much of his contact with his minions. As three directors of the C.I.A., along with their deputies, have clearly confirmed for one and all who care, the intelligence gleaned from enhanced interrogation proved highly useful in tracking terrorist enemies of the United States as well as preventing and pre-empting attacks. Feinstein and Pelosi are dissembling for nothing more than crass political points.
Quote: Dicenor33

Besides, agents are trained to tolerate torture and they might purposely send investigators on a wrong path . . .

Jihadi fighters are not "agents" in the normal sense. No real "agent" would expect 73 virgins awaiting him.
SanchoPanza
SanchoPanza
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December 12th, 2014 at 1:56:48 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Brenner, current head of the CIA, and Dep Dir during 9/11, says these people (contractors brought in as interrogators) did many unsanctioned things, broke laws and directives (though he says they are unable to prosecute - which may indicate not a lack of evidence but necessary prosecution and defense materials being classified), and caused large amounts of internal problems between CIA case officers and interrogators both ethically and procedurally (paraphrasing Brenner's press conference today). He seems to be politically constrained but is being interpreted to point back to forced compliance with Cheney's WH directing the CIA to be involved despite their misgivings.

That is nothing more than pure speculation and conjecture, all without any basis in fact or documentation. The history of John Owen Brennan in the C.I.A. and related activities is pretty much well known and is on the easily available public record. Although Brennan was left out of the enhanced interrogation program, he stated in the Congressional hearing this week that it had definitely provided useful and actionable intelligence to help defend the United States against the growing threat of terrorism.

Gandler
Gandler
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December 12th, 2014 at 2:22:25 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Well we could have gassed and buried Germans in mass graves at one time. Then we could each be watching each other's atrocity documentaries today.

(Couldn't help it, had to go there.)



We did kill Nazi SS Officers without a trial. There were Nazi Hunting Squads from America and the UK (though I'm sure the Russians participated). They track down established Nazis (after the war mind you), take them into the wilderness, shoot them in the head and bury them. Christopher Lee, the old guy who plays the Evil Wizard in Lord of the Rings, used to do this with the British Special Forces.


And I am willing to bet you have no issue with SS officers being killed without a trial? Its because they are established and the military knows who they are and what they do (and of course in the case of SS officers it was well documented). How is it any different to know somebody is a long established terrorist?



Quote: beachbumbabs

Well, that's the difference in our viewpoints, then. My understanding of both Bush and Obama's stances is that we are absolutely at war, with the terrorists and more recently with ISIS. We returned the favor, in our own way, to Bin Ladin, Hussein, Gaddafi, and a bunch of others, and rightly so. But there are POW rules we insist on for our people, so we must comply with them when we are the jailers.



We are also at "war" with Ebola and poverty, but that does not mean they are conventional wars.
"Whatever is my right as a man is also the right of another; and it becomes my duty to guarantee as well as to possess. -Thomas Paine
rxwine
rxwine
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December 12th, 2014 at 3:11:42 PM permalink
Quote: Gandler

We did kill Nazi SS Officers without a trial. There were Nazi Hunting Squads from America and the UK (though I'm sure the Russians participated). They track down established Nazis (after the war mind you), take them into the wilderness, shoot them in the head and bury them. Christopher Lee, the old guy who plays the Evil Wizard in Lord of the Rings, used to do this with the British Special Forces.


And I am willing to bet you have no issue with SS officers being killed without a trial? Its because they are established and the military knows who they are and what they do (and of course in the case of SS officers it was well documented). How is it any different to know somebody is a long established terrorist?



Well you're willing to lose a bet then.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_trials
One person's freedom is another person's annoying crap.
Gandler
Gandler
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December 12th, 2014 at 3:17:17 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

Well you're willing to lose a bet then.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_trials



I'm not talking about Nuremberg. I'm talking about the tracking and execution squads for Nazi SS Officers who did not turn themselves in.
"Whatever is my right as a man is also the right of another; and it becomes my duty to guarantee as well as to possess. -Thomas Paine
rxwine
rxwine
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December 12th, 2014 at 3:29:14 PM permalink
Quote: Gandler

I'm not talking about Nuremberg. I'm talking about the tracking and execution squads for Nazi SS Officers who did not turn themselves in.



I'd have to do a roll call, but sure some of the 200 on trial in Nuremberg didn't turn themselves in. Someone could have shot them without going to trial, but I don't know why you think I'd approve of summary execution.
One person's freedom is another person's annoying crap.
Gandler
Gandler
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December 12th, 2014 at 3:39:16 PM permalink
Quote: rxwine

I'd have to do a roll call, but sure some of the 200 on trial in Nuremberg didn't turn themselves in. Someone could have shot them without going to trial, but I don't know why you think I'd approve of summary execution.



I think you are missing my point. Even if some resisted arrest initially, so to speak, they were still captured.

The SS Officers who were executed with no intention of arresting them were officers who ran off and were a known threat and hiding their identity. It was not just an American thing, many countries participated. Israel was still executing SS officers in the 1960s, tracking down the ones trying to hold out in South America.

I'm sorry it was wrong of me to assume that you would be in favor, but most people I ask seem to have no problem killing SS even people against waterboarding so its usually a safe assumption.

But my point is most people are totally OK with the execution of SS without trial, yet when known terrorists who have done worst things than the majority of the average SS Officer have done, and are held and treated a little bit harshly people act like America is going crazy.
"Whatever is my right as a man is also the right of another; and it becomes my duty to guarantee as well as to possess. -Thomas Paine
terapined
terapined
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December 12th, 2014 at 3:42:26 PM permalink
Quote: Gandler

I'm not talking about Nuremberg. I'm talking about the tracking and execution squads for Nazi SS Officers who did not turn themselves in.



Below is a quote from Christopher Lee's Wiki page

Here, he was tasked with helping to track down Nazi war criminals.[66] Of his time with the organisation, Lee has said: "We were given dossiers of what they'd done and told to find them, interrogate them as much as we could and hand them over to the appropriate authority ... We saw these concentration camps. Some had been cleaned up. Some had not."[66] Lee then retired from the RAF in 1946 with the rank of flight lieutenant

Execution squads???
He was in the Royal Air Force.
Source please?
"Everybody's bragging and drinking that wine, I can tell the Queen of Diamonds by the way she shines, Come to Daddy on an inside straight, I got no chance of losing this time" -Grateful Dead- "Loser"
Gandler
Gandler
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December 12th, 2014 at 3:49:50 PM permalink
Quote: terapined

Below is a quote from Christopher Lee's Wiki page

Here, he was tasked with helping to track down Nazi war criminals.[66] Of his time with the organisation, Lee has said: "We were given dossiers of what they'd done and told to find them, interrogate them as much as we could and hand them over to the appropriate authority ... We saw these concentration camps. Some had been cleaned up. Some had not."[66] Lee then retired from the RAF in 1946 with the rank of flight lieutenant

Execution squads???
He was in the Royal Air Force.
Source please?



Return of the King making of Documentary they discussed it (when talking about what sounds to make when somebody gets stabbed in the back, because his character dies by a backstabbing from Wormtoungue).

Hang on I'll see if I can find it online.

He was in several things. He was in the Finnish Army to fight the Russians at one point. He did quite a lot during WWII.
"Whatever is my right as a man is also the right of another; and it becomes my duty to guarantee as well as to possess. -Thomas Paine
EvenBob
EvenBob
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December 12th, 2014 at 3:51:55 PM permalink
Quote: terapined

told to find them, interrogate them as much as we could



Oops, sorry, another dies during questioning.
What do you think, Lee is going to admit to
such a thing?
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal

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