beachbumbabs
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beachbumbabs
Joined: May 21, 2013
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December 11th, 2014 at 9:58:23 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

You misunderstand.

I did not take his comments out of context.

I snipped the quote in the interests of brevity, not to twist.

Whatever, the notion that "It would have been far more effective to take these people in, treat them well" is short-sighted and naive, in my opinion.

Turn them into informants?

Really?

"What happened here was that we asked the agency to go take steps and put in place programs that were designed to catch the bastards who killed 3,000 of us on 9/11 and make sure it never happened again, and that's exactly what they did. --- Dick Cheney





Brenner, current head of the CIA, and Dep Dir during 9/11, says these people (contractors brought in as interrogators) did many unsanctioned things, broke laws and directives (though he says they are unable to prosecute - which may indicate not a lack of evidence but necessary prosecution and defense materials being classified), and caused large amounts of internal problems between CIA case officers and interrogators both ethically and procedurally (paraphrasing Brenner's press conference today). He seems to be politically constrained but is being interpreted to point back to forced compliance with Cheney's WH directing the CIA to be involved despite their misgivings.

I agree that I may have misunderstood your intent in favor of brevity. However, perhaps you can agree that reading only what you quoted is a misrepresentation of what he said, and a person would have to realize that, scroll back and read the actual quote to get his context? Your edit makes it look like he was an ISIS/terrorist sympathizer, when he is nothing of the sort.

And neither am I. I can't set their ethical standards. If I had control of a drone or three, ISIS would have no unburned oil wells, and Syria would have no desert training camps. But I can and do as a citizen have expectations for how the United States conducts itself in war, and it must be above the level demonstrated by the interrogators during that period.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
MrV
MrV
Joined: Feb 13, 2010
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December 11th, 2014 at 10:04:48 PM permalink
Quote:

I can and do as a citizen have expectations for how the United States conducts itself in war, and it must be above the level demonstrated by the interrogators during that period.



We are not at war.

They're terrorists.

There is a difference.

Heck, they're beheading Americans.

Let's return the favor.

So far as I'm concerned, "anything goes."

No mercy.
"What, me worry?"
rxwine
rxwine
Joined: Feb 28, 2010
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December 11th, 2014 at 10:39:04 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

We are not at war.

They're terrorists.

There is a difference.

Heck, they're beheading Americans.

Let's return the favor.

So far as I'm concerned, "anything goes."

No mercy.



Well we could have gassed and buried Germans in mass graves at one time. Then we could each be watching each other's atrocity documentaries today.

(Couldn't help it, had to go there.)
Quasimodo? Does that name ring a bell?
beachbumbabs
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beachbumbabs
Joined: May 21, 2013
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December 11th, 2014 at 10:48:04 PM permalink
Quote: MrV

We are not at war.

They're terrorists.

There is a difference.

Heck, they're beheading Americans.

Let's return the favor.

So far as I'm concerned, "anything goes."

No mercy.



Well, that's the difference in our viewpoints, then. My understanding of both Bush and Obama's stances is that we are absolutely at war, with the terrorists and more recently with ISIS. We returned the favor, in our own way, to Bin Ladin, Hussein, Gaddafi, and a bunch of others, and rightly so. But there are POW rules we insist on for our people, so we must comply with them when we are the jailers.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
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December 11th, 2014 at 11:02:34 PM permalink
Good ol Nancy Pelosi. Says she knew nothing
about enhanced methods, yet other senators
are saying she was right there in 2002 at the
briefing that gave detailed accounts of water
boarding. The response from everyone there?
Why aren't we doing more.

She also has no idea who Gruber is, until video
was played with her speaking glowingly of him in
press conferences. What a piece of work she
truly is.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
Twirdman
Twirdman
Joined: Jun 5, 2013
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December 11th, 2014 at 11:19:07 PM permalink
Quote: Gandler

I strongly doubt it was a case of animistic vengeance. To get into the CIA let alone as a high level field agent you have to go through so many psychological tests and emotion tests. There is a reason so many seem so mechanical when you talk to them. I doubt they get any pleasure from waterboarding somebody, its probably just another task of the day like entering files into a computer.

But we don't know all of the details. We know in some cases they do work (and have worked, such as the attack that was prevented by the UK). But my opinion is if there is even a slight chance of it working it is worth it if other options are exhausted. I feel no sympathy for people who have killed countless people while planning to kill countless more, and not in pleasant ways. I can't feel sorry for somebody having water dumped on them or forced to stay awake for a few hours, when if the situation is reversed, they would be chopping the captive into pieces, except often purely for resolve not for information.

I find it sadly ironic that so much time is being debated about this handful of times this was used in the last decade (which I don't even view as an issue, its a plausible option in an already limited toolbox). When the people this is used on often kill more people a day then America has waterboarded in the last two decades... Its just politics, look at who opened the case. People want to make America look like the villian, and its an easy task when so many people in America love to jump on board.



You misunderstand I meant animalistic vengeance is a reason why some support it not why the CIA did it. Oh and are you talking about this UK plot that was foiled

The Senate report said identification of Issa came from a British investigation. It says Mohammed didn't provide the first reporting on him, nor is there evidence showing CIA interrogations led to Barot's arrest. After Barot was apprehended, the report said, CIA officers prepared a document for British authorities stating that while Mohammed tasked al-Hindi to go to the U.S. to study targets, he was unaware how far Barot's planning progressed, who Issa's co-conspirators were or that Issa's planning focused on Britain.

Here are some more cases where torture "saved lives" except not really http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2867354/Competing-claims-torture-effectiveness.html#ixzz3LfKn4AEg
Tanko
Tanko
Joined: Apr 22, 2013
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December 12th, 2014 at 2:41:11 AM permalink
Quote: Boz

And they seem to be ignoring the budget talks that have placed far left loons like Warren against more normal Dems who dont think Wall Street is out to get everyone.



Senator Warren and the TEA Party oppose a change to Dodd-Frank that gives the banks a larger Federal safety net in the event of another collapse.

The change shifts more derivatives units losses to the taxpayer when these investments fail.

When they win their bets, they keep the money.

When they lose, we have to cover their losses.

'Normal' Dems joined Republicans and passed this legislation.
terapined
terapined
Joined: Dec 1, 2012
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December 12th, 2014 at 4:19:46 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Good ol Nancy Pelosi. Says she knew nothing
about enhanced methods, yet other senators
are saying she was right there in 2002 at the
briefing that gave detailed accounts of water
boarding. .


Good Ol John McCain, he knows everything about torture due to experience.
This republican senator war hero is against torture.
"Everybody's bragging and drinking that wine, I can tell the Queen of Diamonds by the way she shines, Come to Daddy on an inside straight, I got no chance of losing this time" -Grateful Dead- "Loser"
Dicenor33
Dicenor33
Joined: Aug 28, 2013
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December 12th, 2014 at 6:32:02 AM permalink
The info obtained would probably be outdated since the perpetrator is in captivity already and accomplices would probably alter their plans accordingly. Besides, agents are trained to tolerate torture and they might purposely send investigators on a wrong path, wasting their time while terrorists have a better chance to succeed.
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
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December 12th, 2014 at 12:13:29 PM permalink
Quote: terapined


This republican senator war hero is against torture.



His stance is ridiculous. He says the tortured
person will say anything to make it stop. Yeah,
but a lot of that 'anything' is truthful info, it's
up to the interrogators to sort it out. Look at
McCain's viewpoint, he has to be against it,
he was tortured for 5 years. He can't be in favor
of something he hates.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal

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