RESOLVED - Bovada Trying To Rip Off My Winning Bet, Help?
Quote: MoscaRule #1: DO NOT GAMBLE ON LINE.
Thank you!
Quote: Zcore13Here's what it comes down to. If THEIR system accepted the bet and gave conformation, the bet should be paid. Do they have to do this under their TOS? No. But should they? Yes. It's their system. It's their issue. It's them that does not have proper documentation or processes to prove the bet was not valid. So many companies, not just online casinos, lose business because they do not see the big picture. If the system is broke, fix it! Don't blame the customer.
ZCore13
Quote: thecesspitI agree with this as well. To have a system which may show an accepted bet then turn it around is not acceptable, and should fail any quality standards they have in place.
Zcore - I couldn't agree with you more. No joke, had they paid my winning wager, I would have kept betting THAT DAY, and I most certainly would be betting again this coming Sunday. I have bet EVERY Sunday of this football season. Now, I'm never putting another dime through their system again so long as it doesn't get resolved.
thecesspit - From my experience, Bovada doesn't care about quality, or their customers... clearly.
Quote: RomesZcore - I couldn't agree with you more. No joke, had they paid my winning wager, I would have kept betting THAT DAY, and I most certainly would be betting again this coming Sunday. I have bet EVERY Sunday of this football season. Now, I'm never putting another dime through their system again so long as it doesn't get resolved.
thecesspit - From my experience, Bovada doesn't care about quality, or their customers... clearly.
Was Zuga or the Wiz able to help out?
I saw they both responded in this thread.
Is the situation still open with them or were they not able to help and the situation is closed concerning help from Zuga or the Wiz?
Quote: MoscaAll this does for me is verify Rule #1: DO NOT GAMBLE ON LINE.
Apologies to those who do place bets online, and to you, Zuga, you make your livelihood from online gambling. But this just proves that if the house decides to not pay, you aren't getting paid.
I can't say Bovada or anyone "lost" my action, since this was already Rule #1. But it added cement to the foundation. Rule #1 isn't changing.
Well I don't know about that, some online casinos if regulated are ok. But I won't trust online casinos that are not regulated by a state agency.
If your online casino is monitored by a state and there is a contact to press complaints to, you are very unlikely to get scammed (they will not risk losing their online license over 50 dollars). However, I would not trust some random unregulated casino. Even with the "Seal of Approval", I doubt that means much in disputes, the Wizard has no legal backing to claim money that by state law would be his, the casino ultimately has the ultimate say without any chance of recourse.
I was out of town at a client and went to the MNF game. I had my phone and saw there was 'live betting'.
So I decided to entertain myself at the game. Placed a few wagers won some and lost some. Then noticed that after the play was over, the bet was still up. There was the satellite delay of up 10 seconds from live at the game action to when it was settled.
There were times when the lines were being posted and the play was being snapped.
Yes, I was post betting as I knew the result. I also did not get greedy. I would win some and intentionally lose some to ensure I would not get flagged. This happened a few times over a year where I was able to make about $400 a night. Too much would be too obvious.
Then, I made a poor decision when I was out of town in another city attending a baseball game.
Instead of selecting base hit for lower odds, I selected 'double'. It won and paid huge, a couple of thousand. A few moments later, my bet was cancelled and I was prevented from live betting.
In my opinion, you may or may not have been post betting, however the hundreds of dollars on a wager at Bovada is a huge red flag on live betting. They just might have been looking for an excuse to shut you down.
Quote: terapinedWas Zuga or the Wiz able to help out?
I saw they both responded in this thread.
Is the situation still open with them or were they not able to help and the situation is closed concerning help from Zuga or the Wiz?
I will be contacting the Rep shortly.
Quote: terapinedWas Zuga or the Wiz able to help out?
I saw they both responded in this thread.
Is the situation still open with them or were they not able to help and the situation is closed concerning help from Zuga or the Wiz?
Zuga has been helpful and said he's contacting the Rep soon. So I guess we'll see. The situation (without Zuga/the Rep) is considered closed with me vs Bovada. 3 e-mails and about 3-4 hours of phone conversations later the supervisor flat out told me "terms of service we're choosing not to pay this bet."
Quote: TaxmanCPAI had this happen to me about 4-5 years ago.
I was out of town at a client and went to the MNF game. I had my phone and saw there was 'live betting'.
So I decided to entertain myself at the game. Placed a few wagers won some and lost some. Then noticed that after the play was over, the bet was still up. There was the satellite delay of up 10 seconds from live at the game action to when it was settled.
There were times when the lines were being posted and the play was being snapped.
Yes, I was post betting as I knew the result. I also did not get greedy. I would win some and intentionally lose some to ensure I would not get flagged. This happened a few times over a year where I was able to make about $400 a night. Too much would be too obvious.
Then, I made a poor decision when I was out of town in another city attending a baseball game.
Instead of selecting base hit for lower odds, I selected 'double'. It won and paid huge, a couple of thousand. A few moments later, my bet was cancelled and I was prevented from live betting.
In my opinion, you may or may not have been post betting, however the hundreds of dollars on a wager at Bovada is a huge red flag on live betting. They just might have been looking for an excuse to shut you down.
I wasn't at the game, I was watching it on TV. With their definition of past posting and your story I now understand what exactly they're afraid of, but canceling all the bets regardless if they any were actually past post because the Bovada Lines guy snoozed for 2 seconds and just had the lines open (again not that anyone bet them late even) is still BS in my opinion. The rep told me regardless of action, if their guy see's he accidentally left the line up for a couple seconds too long they just cancel any/all bets associated with the line. Again, I still don't understand why they don't just close the lines a few seconds earlier. If 20% of the plays in a game are miss (as in you can't bet on them), that's when you say "oh well, it's live betting"... not when you're screwing someone out of a placed, accepted, and WON wager.
Assuming everything Romes said was accurate and honest and went down as described but they refuse to pay.
Will this site continue to give Mikes and your stamp of approval?
Then go back and defend lem66 he paid everybody and never welched on anyone but the guy who he had problems with.Quote: FinsRuleI'm going to defend Bovada. Except for the live wager issue I had, they have paid out every single winning wager I was entitled to. I wouldn't bet live with them, but there is no issue with regular bets.
1. How are these live lines generated?
2. How much does the job of watching the game and closing the betting window before the snap/pitch pay? Would get very boring after a while.
Quote: FinsRuleI'm going to defend Bovada. Except for the live wager issue I had, they have paid out every single winning wager I was entitled to. I wouldn't bet live with them, but there is no issue with regular bets.
And had they paid my fair, accepted, winning wager I would defend them too... Say you place a large wager tomorrow, and you win that wager, then they don't pay you the money for it... and when you call up they say "Terms of Service we can decided how we want to handle every bet, and we're simply not paying you." That's it, no reasoning, evidence of anything, other than you placed a bet, the bet won, and they chose not to pay you. Now how do you feel? Welcome to where I am.
Quote: AxelWolfQuestion for the new owners.
Assuming everything Romes said was accurate and honest and went down as described but they refuse to pay.
Will this site continue to give Mikes and your stamp of approval?
I will put my rep, and anything else up that I can to state very openly that everything I've posted is absolutely true. I'd love to also hear the answer to this, after Zuga's rep comes back with the result of their efforts (and I do very much appreciate their efforts).
Quote: NokTangVery curious...in regards to live betting...
1. How are these live lines generated?
2. How much does the job of watching the game and closing the betting window before the snap/pitch pay? Would get very boring after a while.
1) They literally told me their process, which I posted. They have a guy watching the game on tv "live." He essentially has a program where he can select which predefined set of lines to offer. He clicks "show lines" or "hide lines." How hard is it, if you're worried about the lines being up too long, to click hide lines a few seconds earlier. Again, as I stated before, one would think as a business you'd rather miss 10-20% of the plays than have legit plays/bets that you refuse to pay, infuriating customers and destroying your reputation. Just my opinion on the business though =p.
2) Every job becomes boring after a while of doing the same thing over and over... but I don't think it's the players fault for a board employee making a mistake (which they admitted their employee made the mistake).
Quote: RomesAnd had they paid my fair, accepted, winning wager I would defend them too... Say you place a large wager tomorrow, and you win that wager, then they don't pay you the money for it... and when you call up they say "Terms of Service we can decided how we want to handle every bet, and we're simply not paying you." That's it, no reasoning, evidence of anything, other than you placed a bet, the bet won, and they chose not to pay you. Now how do you feel? Welcome to where I am.
I will put my rep, and anything else up that I can to state very openly that everything I've posted is absolutely true. I'd love to also hear the answer to this, after Zuga's rep comes back with the result of their efforts (and I do very much appreciate their efforts).
1) They literally told me their process, which I posted. They have a guy watching the game on tv "live." He essentially has a program where he can select which predefined set of lines to offer. He clicks "show lines" or "hide lines." How hard is it, if you're worried about the lines being up too long, to click hide lines a few seconds earlier. Again, as I stated before, one would think as a business you'd rather miss 10-20% of the plays than have legit plays/bets that you refuse to pay, infuriating customers and destroying your reputation. Just my opinion on the business though =p.
2) Every job becomes boring after a while of doing the same thing over and over... but I don't think it's the players fault for a board employee making a mistake (which they admitted their employee made the mistake).
I don't do sports betting so i am curious.if this were a real casino and your brought this to the state of Nevada commission who would they say was at fault?
Quote: Romes
1) They literally told me their process, which I posted. They have a guy watching the game on tv "live." He essentially has a program where he can select which predefined set of lines to offer.
Something has to determine what is a "good" line to select. That was my question.
The other member mentioned baseball. I assume it refers to the next pitch? Very short time span.
One can imagine picking a home run on the next pitch would be a very high line. He said he bet on a double.
Or is it per inning, per team at bat? I don't want to distract from your topic but you seem to know how it all works.....
In the case of a rushing play or a passing play, still a matter of seconds to have said wagers available.
Their policy seems to be when a past post occurs they void all the wagers of said play/event. I don't see why you think they would have a choice in real time to check each wager's time stamp. However, customer service would dictate the ability to do it later, another person doing the audit, and adjusting players accounts accordingly, in a somewhat reasonable amount of time. The fact that it was a large wager based on your average wager might trigger said audit as well, I simply don't know. Thanks for the discussion and allowing others to comment without the need for childlike name calling.
You have to assume in live betting that it just can't be 100% perfect.
With live football betting, the bet is supposed to be cutoff the second they break the huddle, if they are two seconds late, they need to cancel any wagers.
I understand why you'd be upset and not use them again. But I read some comments that said that they would never use Bovada, and I just think that's sort of unfair. If you don't use live betting, they are perfectly fine.
I thought he made the bet prior to the play?Quote: FinsRuleMy whole point in saying I defend Bovada is that I generally am an untrusting person of online gambling. They have paid me on time for all of my non-live bets.
You have to assume in live betting that it just can't be 100% perfect.
With live football betting, the bet is supposed to be cutoff the second they break the huddle, if they are two seconds late, they need to cancel any wagers.
I understand why you'd be upset and not use them again. But I read some comments that said that they would never use Bovada, and I just think that's sort of unfair. If you don't use live betting, they are perfectly fine.
They could just use this excuse every time and say they "accidentally left some bets open to long.
They might have gotten hit on this bet hard even with legitimate non past posted bets.
The shouldn't penalize everybody who got the bet in on time. Do they refund the losers whose bets lose in situations like this?
Quote:Hi Nik,
The players were taking advantage of stale lines in our live product, the outcome of the play had already occurred and they took advantage of the fact knowing the outcome already.
The rules deemed by the book manager can be found here: http://www.bovada.lv/help/rules-common-all-sports
Players agree to the rules under our terms of service and accept that in situations like this the book managers decision is final.
We are not in the business to cheat players, if this was a legitimate win, we would have paid it out, in this case since the outcome of the event was already public knowledge, even if the players in this situation didn't know themselves the outcome, they still have to consider that they did since it is now public knowledge, had this been the inverse we would have done the same.
Quote: NokTangSomething has to determine what is a "good" line to select. That was my question.
I'm guessing it's calculated based on current down, yards to go, current ball position, and maybe a few other criteria and there's nothing to do other than click post/remove lines.
Romes, I don't remember anybody else asking - did you ask them if they voided all the losing wagers as well?
Quote: ZugaQuoting below the reply I received from Bovada Rep
Quote:Hi Nik,
The players were taking advantage of stale lines in our live product, the outcome of the play had already occurred and they took advantage of the fact knowing the outcome already.
The rules deemed by the book manager can be found here: http://www.bovada.lv/help/rules-common-all-sports
Players agree to the rules under our terms of service and accept that in situations like this the book managers decision is final.
We are not in the business to cheat players, if this was a legitimate win, we would have paid it out, in this case since the outcome of the event was already public knowledge, even if the players in this situation didn't know themselves the outcome, they still have to consider that they did since it is now public knowledge, had this been the inverse we would have done the same.
This is the same things they told me over and over, when in fact I know it wasn't. So I asked for proof/evidence of when the play began, and when my bet was placed. That's when I repeatedly got told from Bovada reps that they didn't have the information of when the play started (telling me that inherently they couldn't define my bet as past post). Everyone agreed they didn't know when the play started, then said "well with our terms of service we still reserve the right to review any bet and take any action we deep necessary, sorry."
Is there anything still going on, or is this considered closed even by your Rep then Zuga?
Quote: wudged...Romes, I don't remember anybody else asking - did you ask them if they voided all the losing wagers as well?
Here's another fun fact. They told me this is, of course, fairly common with live betting... as it's "so fast paced that sometimes mistakes happen and this happens to everyone." Well, I've been live betting for years and have never had this issue... So I asked "How do I know over the last few years I've been live betting that you didn't have a past post play where you canceled all the winning bets, and took my losing bets? I've never had any other bets canceled..."
more thoughts:
*that's really low-tech crap
*if such happens more than extremely rarely, then Bovada is going to be pissing off customers constantly, as almost no one reads those agreements before clicking 'OK'
*can Bovada prove that losing bets were also cancelled, or was it just the winning ones like anyone might suspect?
Quote: Romes
This is the same things they told me over and over, when in fact I know it wasn't. So I asked for proof/evidence of when the play began, and when my bet was placed.
Romes, how is it that you know in fact it wasn't after the play started? I'm not saying you are wrong, I would just be interested in the process and forensics you used to determine the bet was placed prior to the action. We all know that television and internet have many delays. It is not uncommon for television to be 15 seconds behind the live action.
Quote: DRichRomes, how is it that you know in fact it wasn't after the play started?.
I'm simply saying I know I did not place the bet after seeing the play started. Perhaps I was on a delay? Yes, that's possible... but not apparent to me. Their whole deal they're feeding me is if the lines are up too long and past posting is even 'possible' (not that any of their users even did it, or perhaps weren't even aware they did it) then they'll out right cancel the line.
and its standard procedure just like with horse racing, if you bet past post now its voided
just with horse racing they time stamp it, ive had races that lost voided and races that won
if i bet at 1.13 and three seconds and the race goes off at 1.13 and 53 seconds its voided over 50 seconds
like wise if i bet at 1.53 and 59 seconds and the race goes at 1.54 and zero seconds its not
Quote: strictlyAP...like wise if i bet at 1.53 and 59 seconds and the race goes at 1.54 and zero seconds its not
And my question to them was... Okay, when did the play start? They said they don't have, and can't get, that information. Thus, they can't define my bet past post because they don't even know when the play started. It comes down to they 'think' the guy left the line open too long, so they're screwing anyone who bet on that line, with a regular or past post bet.
Quote: aladyat42Pay most, screw a few, and the most will say " I always got paid "
n
did anyone expect a different result, approved or not ? ? ?
Quote: aladyat42did anyone expect a different result, approved or not ? ? ?
Um, yes? If I place a legal accepted wager, and that wager wins, then I expect to be paid. Same for anyone else in the same situation...
Quote: RomesUm, yes? If I place a legal accepted wager, and that wager wins, then I expect to be paid. Same for anyone else in the same situation...
You bet online and actually expected to be paid just because you won ?
I never cease to be amazed, unlike P. T. Barnum !
but it does look a little strange most people do not go from betting 1 dollar to 400 - ill tell you what I do have access to some info you are looking for time stamp wise and what not-
how bout you pm me or post a screen shot of your other wagers on live wagering - more then just a couple and Ill get you some definitive proof of what time plays went off from very well credited sources
Quote: strictlyAPI was all over this thread- no offense to anybody but the 1 to 400 is a dead giveaway
and its standard procedure just like with horse racing, if you bet past post now its voided
He didnt bey 400. He bet 100 to win 330.
Bovada should make a public log/list of lines that had the potential for past posting and thus were voided. So it is clear that they are not taking losing bets and simply not paying the winners.
Quote: strictlyAPromes, like I said nothing agaisnt you at all -
but it does look a little strange most people do not go from betting 1 dollar to 400 - ill tell you what I do have access to some info you are looking for time stamp wise and what not-
You are getting 2 posters mixed up.
There are 2 on here that did not get paid.
The guy that went from 1 to 400 is not Romes.
Scottimus1 went from 1 to 400, not Romes.
Quote: strictlyAPromes, like I said nothing agaisnt you at all -
but it does look a little strange most people do not go from betting 1 dollar to 400 - ill tell you what I do have access to some info you are looking for time stamp wise and what not-
how bout you pm me or post a screen shot of your other wagers on live wagering - more then just a couple and Ill get you some definitive proof of what time plays went off from very well credited sources
As others have been stating, you're getting me confused with someone else. I never bet 400. The biggest bet I placed was $100. ALSO, in my OP the screenshot I posted for MY bet(s) I show multiple $100 wagers. If everyone wants to see more I can post more bets. Some were $20, some $50, I won a few, lost a few.
ZCore13
hope you got kissed cause you sure gotF*****
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Quote: mickeycrimmBovada has a problem. And people who live bet with them have a problem. I'm supposed to take the word of an offshore unregulated bookie? Get real. The whole thing stinks of anti trust. Its to easy for them to scam the situation. If you live bet with them after you know what you know now then you deserve to get scammed.
But Mickey, Bovada is an Approved Casino........ You must be mistaken or inebriated.
Quote: aladyat42But Mickey, Bovada is an Approved Casino........ You must be mistaken or inebriated.
It's a wicked world.
Quote: aladyat42But Mickey, Bovada is an Approved Casino........ You must be mistaken or inebriated.
Ok, who the heck is this guy? He made a couple posts in March 2011, and then nothing until two days ago.
Quote: DeucekiesOk, who the heck is this guy? He made a couple posts in March 2011, and then nothing until two days ago.
1st 3 posts by this person are pretty bizarre 3 1/2 years ago. Not sure if "guy" is the correct term to refer to this poster.
Quote: aladyat42Dear Nareed
This will have to be short Heading out door Amazed Wiz has such a great forum I took early retirement at age 42. Became instant couch potato. Criticize wife's lack of organizing and housekeeping skills in general. Accepted her dare to trade place ads as that fateful day arrived the stakes had esculated due to my refusal to back dowm. ( short man complex am only 5'3 ) after 3 days of falling in high heels laundry overflowing burnt meals etc I wanted to scream. But determined to finish out the agreed to week. Then my sister gfound out OMG
Long story short. I am now a full time stay at home housewife. my email is aladyat422yahoo.com If reply will secong recent pix have been Chatty Cathy 7 years now.
Will post on forums tomorrow hopefully Have to go. Judy honking horn in driveway.
2nd post, Hotblond put up a poll, female or male, aladyat42 answered yes,
Next post - maybe.
Hotblond asked if transgender, no response and no posts till a couple days ago.
