Ferguson cop
Al Gore, of course :-)Quote: thecesspitWhere do you think the internet came from?
Quote: rudeboyoiIm hearing there was no knife on the ground at the time of shooting. Then it appeared later.
Well the police were called because he assaulted some body on the street with a knife...
Quote: GreasyjohnIf Darren Wilson were shot and killed by a protester would Obama send representatives to his funeral?
He would probably pardon the protestor.
Quote: GandlerHe would probably pardon the protestor.
Using the "Black Rage" excuse.
Quote: terapinedThe Yakuza.
In the 1500's? That's when Japan crucified
even petty thieves.
Rockin' it
*note: it's about seven years old; the more things change, the more they stay the same*
Here is the segment from Joe Rogan's Podcast with Sam Harris on Police "Violence" and Fergunson. The basic premise is don't resist, even if you feel that you are being wrongfully arrested, just go and sue them later.
Fighting a group of people who are armed and have the power to arrest you is never a good idea even if you feel they are wrong. Be civilized and use the court system and file a complaint at the department.
Quote: MrVChris Rock weighs in on the subject.
Rockin' it
*note: it's about seven years old; the more things change, the more they stay the same*
File this under funny because so true. My employer had a case, guy might have drove off on a DUI but his sister of all things comes out of the car yelling at the cops. And don't forget that guy from "Blow" who's woman ratted him on a traffic stop.
Quote: rudeboyoiProtesters are going to stage a diein in philly after the eagles game.
What does that even mean?
Quote: GandlerWhat does that even mean?
Lay down like youre dead. They do it for 4.5mins in homage to michael browns body being left in the road for 4.5hrs. Some make chalk outlines of their body too.
Quote: rudeboyoiLay down like youre dead. They do it for 4.5mins in homage to michael browns body being left in the road for 4.5hrs. Some make chalk outlines of their body too.
You mean the time the body was "left" there so inspectors could evaluate it and make sure the scene was properly investigated?
I would bet if the body "disappeared" in 2mins you would be up in arms for them either hiding evidence or not allowing detectives to investigate.
Quote: GandlerYou mean the time the body was "left" there so inspectors could evaluate it and make sure the scene was properly investigated?
I would bet if the body "disappeared" in 2mins you would be up in arms for them either hiding evidence or not allowing detectives to investigate.
Umm... investigating yourselves is never going to be a proper investigation.
https://mobile.twitter.com/declarationphl
I havent found a stream yet but found this twitter page where info should pop up. Apparently some sports fans threatened to run over protesters.
Quote: rudeboyoiLay down like youre dead. They do it for 4.5mins in homage to michael browns body being left in the road for 4.5hrs. Some make chalk outlines of their body too.
Hands Down, Get a F****** Job.
They are trying to raise awareness for a cause, all it really accomplishes is to piss off the people (traffic) you are disrupting and turn them against their cause. They think they are raising awareness and that people should be upset about the issue. Should and is aren't the same thing. They don't get pissed off about the issue. They get pissed off at you. The majority of people are either indifferent or turn somewhat against your cause because the protestors disrupted them, not the issue they are protesting about.
it sets them back 20 years. It makes us
realize why profiling exists and should
continue to exist.
Quote: GandlerYou mean the time the body was "left" there so inspectors could evaluate it and make sure the scene was properly investigated?
I would bet if the body "disappeared" in 2mins you would be up in arms for them either hiding evidence or not allowing detectives to investigate.
I can't claim to know the details of the Crime Scene Evaluation. But I would bet the county and state were there to provide oversight.
But even with the Federal Fist of Eric Holder giving in to Mob Rule and demands by lynch mobs, even his federal DOJ investigation found nothing, so its pretty clear Wilson was the honorable one.
Quote: mcallister3200I am not surprised they threatened to run over protestors, they should get a clue that they aren't accomplishing anything. I don't know what peaceful protestors (i.e. not looters) think they are accomplishing. Because it worked 50 years ago they keep doing it, and it just doesn't work anymore.
They are upset that the civil rights era and want to recreate it. Just like I might go to a Rat Pack review in Vegas because I wish I lived it. Of course after I go to some sort of job.
Quote: AZDuffmanThey are upset that the civil rights era and want to recreate it. Just like I might go to a Rat Pack review in Vegas because I wish I lived it. Of course after I go to some sort of job.
Exactly. I think this generation (which I am sadly a part of) is full of phony upper-middle class want to be "revolutionaries" who want to feel like they were a part of some historical movement. Most of these people don't want to get a real job and go home to their parents house at night, while boasting about how they are changing the world before they start working....
I love all of these protestors demanding a "Communist Revolution in America". None of these people would last a day in a communist country, the first day they skipped work would be their last. No free handouts in North Korea...
Quote: FaceBack in my day, protests meant something.
Now that brings back memories Face. I didn't think you were old enough to have memories of Vietnam.
Quote: kenarman
Now that brings back memories Face.
Sorry. I didn't think of that before posting =/
Quote: kenarmanI didn't think you were old enough to have memories of Vietnam.
I'm not. Some of it was me being a goofball. But I did have a point.
I'm all for public displays of dissension. Of course things reach a point where a statement must be made. Sometimes it's civil disobedience, like many in NY are doing by refusing the register firearms. Sometimes the cause is more immediate and more volatile, like the unrest in Vietnam.
But there's a sweet spot, a perfect mix of disobedience and demonstrations to fit each cause. The actions must meet the offense.
This one missed the sweet spot, and by a long walk. You have what appears to be a justified shooting of a criminal during an assault on a police officer, and the response was to burn and loot the place where all the people you purport to be defending live. Even if it were a completely grotesque case of a cop executing a man simply because he was black, the response still wouldn't fit.
Protests mean something. Just as the burning monk brought back memories for you, just as the shopper in Tiananmen square meant so much to so many, every display has the potential to change the world. The people of Ferguson sure changed it, but I think
they pushed it further from the side of good.
Quote: GandlerExactly. I think this generation (which I am sadly a part of) is full of phony upper-middle class want to be "revolutionaries" who want to feel like they were a part of some historical movement. Most of these people don't want to get a real job and go home to their parents house at night, while boasting about how they are changing the world before they start working....
I love all of these protestors demanding a "Communist Revolution in America". None of these people would last a day in a communist country, the first day they skipped work would be their last. No free handouts in North Korea...
Yes, they grew up so fulfilled they need to find some "battle" to fight. Same kind of folks who "live homeless" for a day to "feel what it feels like to be homeless" and when they do the real homeless laugh at them. Or they do a "rolling hunger strike" where one skips lunch and another dinner.
It is scary how many of them think communism is a good idea. I would like to try an experiment where you take the communist wannabees and show them what life under communism is like. Take away most of their personal possessions starting with their smart phone. Then limit the food they can buy to barely the basics. Throw them in a small apartment with a family of strangers. Take away their cars, etc. Then make them live like that six months, see how they like it.
I doubt they would make it two weeks. After one week of eating octopus they would crack.
LAPD wont let family ID the body. Their reason was he had no face so was unidentifiable.
There is quite a bit more to this case, notably about the person's actions and its effects on others, if one is really interested in pathology:Quote: rudeboyoiGuy who cops killed in hollywood a couple days ago theyre saying had a fake knife. He was a street performer who dressed up as the SCREAM villian.
"Danny Howe, who sings on Hollywood for tips, said he saw the man three or four days in the past week working as the “Scream” character for photo tips.
“He scares people for a living,” he said. “It kind of makes you wonder that if you scare people for a living, the cops are going to come.”
Howe and other street entertainers said sometimes the man would sneak up on people with a plastic knife or gun to surprise them.
“I was a in the middle of my show and tries to stick a knife on somebody trying to be scary,” said Tray Cherry, a drummer on Hollywood Boulevard.
Police said someone called 911 Friday to report they had been cut by a man wielding a knife. Capt. Peter Zarcone of LAPD’s Hollywood division said police never found those alleged victims.
“We didn’t find anybody that was cut,” Zarcone said. “We did have witness say he was swinging a knife and people were backing away from him.” 89.3KPCC
Quote: rudeboyoiGuy who cops killed in hollywood a couple days ago theyre saying had a fake knife. He was a street performer who dressed up as the SCREAM villian.
I think I'll leave this one untouched. Of course, I know of many instances where someone was killed by 5-0 and found to have a fake weapon. However, LA and Vegas are weird. Here, having a "fake weapon" isn't something you'd likely assume. There, there's a bunch of strange street performances where that might be more likely. I dunno how likely, so I'll bow out.
But I wonder, and maybe SOOPOO is here and can chime in, how many doctors make a decision that causes loss of life. I don't mean instances where they just couldn't save someone, I mean instances where a patient died as the direct result of a doctor's choice. Maybe he slipped in surgery, maybe he misread a chart, maybe he misdiagnosed, maybe he left a sponge inside someone.
How many died because they are human and make mistakes?
Quote: GandlerExactly. I think this generation (which I am sadly a part of) is full of phony upper-middle class want to be "revolutionaries" who want to feel like they were a part of some historical movement. Most of these people don't want to get a real job and go home to their parents house at night, while boasting about how they are changing the world before they start working....
Says it all.
Quote: FaceI think I'll leave this one untouched. Of course, I know of many instances where someone was killed by 5-0 and found to have a fake weapon. However, LA and Vegas are weird. Here, having a "fake weapon" isn't something you'd likely assume. There, there's a bunch of strange street performances where that might be more likely. I dunno how likely, so I'll bow out.
But I wonder, and maybe SOOPOO is here and can chime in, how many doctors make a decision that causes loss of life. I don't mean instances where they just couldn't save someone, I mean instances where a patient died as the direct result of a doctor's choice. Maybe he slipped in surgery, maybe he misread a chart, maybe he misdiagnosed, maybe he left a sponge inside someone.
How many died because they are human and make mistakes?
Those instances are consensual though. You agreed to letting the doctor perform surgery or whatever on you. Interactions with the police on the other hand are non-consensual. Obey us or we will hurt you.
Quote: rudeboyoiGuy who cops killed in hollywood a couple days ago theyre saying had a fake knife. He was a street performer who dressed up as the SCREAM villian.
LAPD wont let family ID the body. Their reason was he had no face so was unidentifiable.
If he was white we won't hear any more about. To the black racists and self-hating white leftists only "Black Lives Matter".
Quote: rudeboyoiThose instances are consensual though. You agreed to letting the doctor perform surgery or whatever on you.
Some are. Maybe even most are. But I know I've been tooling around in my car, or playing in a barn, or out on the field of sports, and suddenly woke up in a hospital. I know I didn't consent, and my parents weren't there, but I was still subject to procedures. I imagine many or even most of the people SOOPOO works on are done so without consent. It's the nature of the job.
Quote: rudeboyoiInteractions with the police on the other hand are non-consensual. Obey us or we will hurt you.
I suppose I could start splitting hairs and make some argument that by being a party of society, blah, blah, blah, but I'll spare you.
What I still fail to understand is how your way would improve the situation. Sure, there may not be a "group" of folks who "violate your humanity", as you state the police do. But surely you must see that there would be something, right?
I know terapined often laments the cult of Scientology in his home town. Surely without law, it'd be easy for the citizens to unite and drive them out under the threat of death. What about Westboro Baptists? Surely without threat of punishment, many would have already had them drawn and quartered.
How does your way fix it? The police have power. Sometimes it gets abused. It doesn't get abused because "they're the police", it gets abused because men abuse power. This should be completely obvious to anyone. Can you fill in the blanks for me?
Very few things that are illegal are actual crimes. Those actual crimes can be defended with violence. If you dont want to defend yourself and you cant depend on your neighbors to defend you, you can pay for private security. The problem with police is they have a monopoly on violence so they have no obligation to protect you. In the free market you would have private security forces competiting with eachother. Those who fail to protect their customers would likely lose their customers so they would have an obligation to protect you in order to stay in business.
Quote: rudeboyoiYou shouldnt be obligated to pay for services rendered by the hospital if you were unable to give your consent. Whether you choose to pay or not to pay after the fact should be up to you.
So if you get hit by a car and become unresponsive you want the EMTs to leave you in the street since you can't consent?
Quote:Very few things that are illegal are actual crimes. Those actual crimes can be defended with violence. If you dont want to defend yourself and you cant depend on your neighbors to defend you, you can pay for private security. The problem with police is they have a monopoly on violence so they have no obligation to protect you. In the free market you would have private security forces competiting with eachother. Those who fail to protect their customers would likely lose their customers so they would have an obligation to protect you in order to stay in business.
But this comment I find particularly interesting. You say crime (which is actually defined by an act which violates the law of a society) can be defended with violence.
You are concerned about the investigations of crimes. If somebody killed your wife, how would you ensure to get an investigator who is not unbiased (after all he would be working for you)? And how would you obtain justice?
You say want to live in a world where private security forces are vying for power? I suggest looking into some African and other Third world countries...
And if justice (as determined by you) as to be performed on somebody who is protected by a different security company, do you just go to war with that company?
And what is defined by right? If a Christian Church wanted to buy out a security company and go around murdering homosexuals, that would be right by their standard, since their law would be what they make it?
Or if the KKK wanted to go around murdering minorities? Who would anyone be to say to stop them? After all its right by their standard. And in their view minorities are already criminals presented on earth so in their view justice is on their side.
Heres a good video on how security would work.
Thats the risks EMTs take. Those that dont take in unresponsive persons prob wont get much business.
My definition of a crime is something that has a victim.
Please refrain from saying anything about moving to another country. Because by the same logic I can say if you like government so much why dont you move to north korea?
Quote: rudeboyoiYou shouldnt be obligated to pay for services rendered by the hospital if you were unable to give your consent. Whether you choose to pay or not to pay after the fact should be up to you.
Perhaps not, and I understand your belief. However, it seems like we have a choice. One is we subject ourselves to this "service without consent". Going this route ensures you will get service, but you may have financial complaints down the road. The other is we do not serve without consent. Going this route increases the chances you die.
I'd surely rather bitch about a bill than be dead. And I think that idea is a majority consensus, which is why things are the way they are. And again, I'm sure SOOPOO could demonstrate what happens if doctors where subject to your version of law. It wouldn't be good.
Quote: rudeboyoiVery few things that are illegal are actual crimes. Those actual crimes can be defended with violence. If you dont want to defend yourself and you cant depend on your neighbors to defend you, you can pay for private security. The problem with police is they have a monopoly on violence so they have no obligation to protect you. In the free market you would have private security forces competiting with eachother. Those who fail to protect their customers would likely lose their customers so they would have an obligation to protect you in order to stay in business.
This I understand, too. I just think it completely idealistic and unrealistic.
I'm a gunner. I have many weapons. Whether you're one person or 20 people, whether you're stark naked or in full armor, whether you're a 100lb woman or a 400lb lineman, I've got the solution for you. I'm in gunner circles; I could, with complete certainty, create a "protective group" and handle any issue that I may face in my life. I could handle my problems, my neighbor's problems, and I'm mostly sure I and my kind could defend all 2,900 in my town from anything short of National military occupation.
There's a term for this. It's called a "militia". And this militia would make it their purpose to do just as you said, to protect the interests of the people. This is called "policing".
How does this change anything? Me with all my guns and all my training and all my sense of community would be a powerful man in this self-policed environment. Coupled with my age and my enthusiasm, they might even name me General. Now I'm The Man. Assuming our ideas of "what's best" differ, and they most assuredly do, how is this any bit different than what you're lamenting?
Quote: rudeboyoiLaw without Government: Conflict Resolution in a …: http://youtu.be/8kPyrq6SEL0
Heres a good video on how security would work.
So "dawn defense" has a right to take action based on its investigations? What if "Gandler Defense" does no investigation and promises direct action against anyone to its wealthy clients? And your video acts like the defense companies would cooperate, yea that's a pipedream. What if a poor-middle class accuses a billionaire of harassment, do you really think the defense contractor will risk losing the billionaire for a poor client?
Quote:Thats the risks EMTs take. Those that dont take in unresponsive persons prob wont get much business.
So you think unresponsive people should be left in the street? And in most cities I have been in EMTs have been run by the local city and hence have no profit motives.
Quote:My definition of a crime is something that has a victim.
Well the dictionary would disagree with you.
Quote:Please refrain from saying anything about moving to another country. Because by the same logic I can say if you like government so much why dont you move to north korea?
Another strawman attempt. I never told anyone to move anywhere. I said "look at these countries for comparison". I love my country and its system so I have no desire to leave or change any major aspects of it. The government changes with the people, that's why I love it, I may not care for this President (or much of congress), but I will respect that he won legally.
You make a lot of equations to North Korea, North Korea keeps people in the country, America is extremely easy to leave. But to play your game since you were eager for me to give in and be cliche, if you despise America so much, why are you here? You seem to despise the whole system we have. Nothing is stopping you from leaving? Surely there is better country than America in the world?
But I will ask again can your provide a single instance anywhere in history where this system worked successfully? Without being able to provide evidence of success or repeatability there does not seem to be a lot to go on...
Well, if you are going to froth its best to be frothing at the mouth!Quote: EvenBobI really love it. Certain segments of the country, especially Obama's pal Sharpton, are frothing at the mouth for some legit police case to further their agenda. And they just can't find them.
Now Sharpton et al. may have found his case in Staten Island with this 'sell a cigarette on the street for two cents and wind up making "I can't breathe" the last thing that you say and "Not Guilty" the last thing the Grand Jury says.
We do have problems in this country. Particularly discrimination. The Law of Large Numbers seems to discriminate against me the most. Everybody else has winning sessions at the craps table but I feel like the poor guy in the illegal choke hold. Its against the law and he knows it but he can't do anything about it. Just about like Fleastiff at the point where he realizes his bankroll has ebbed, the waitress won't grab me with careless abandon and drag me under the craps table and the casino won't give me my money back. Its sort of like the Grand Jury... they ain't gonna return a true bill of indictment any more than the casino will return my money to me.
Its not the fault of the casino that they hold these rather strange views but it is indeed the fault of the Grand Jurors who often don't know that they are supposed to be more than a rubber stamp indicting ham sandwiches right and left at the prosecutor's whim. After all, the Prosecutor ain't gonna tell them that.
When have you ever heard even petty jurors instructed to say "We the jury demand the bailiff provide drinking water" instead of some juror asking for drinking water as if he were in his ordinary day to day job? Judges and prosecutors WANT dumb pliable jurors rather than runaway grand jurors who will exercise their right to meet secretly and to interrogate the prosecutor closely.
School yard bullies with poor parents grow up to be cops. School yard bullies with richer parents grow up to be prosecutors and judges. And you expect the school yard bullies to allow an empowered Grand Jury rather than a rubber stamp?
If everyone is given the oppurtunity to arm themselves, everyone can keep everyone else in check.
I dont want to leave here. This is where my family and friends are. New zealand is a better country than america but its still a country. It still has a state.
The native americans were doing just fine living without government. Then government was enforced upon them by the white man.
Quote: rudeboyoiSaving someones life that is unresponsive should have no strings attached. Its okay to ask them for money but its up to them on whether or not they decide to pay you. You could start a volunteer ambulance service so there will be no profit motive. We already have volunteer fire departments. So its not that farfetched an idea.
What if I start an ambulance company and enforce payments with my private security force? And if they don't pay they will be taken to my "forced work house" until their debt as determined by me is payed?
Quote:If everyone is given the oppurtunity to arm themselves, everyone can keep everyone else in check.
I agree. But by this logic the shopkeeper would have had the right to shoot Brown for stealing his stuff.
Quote:I dont want to leave here. This is where my family and friends are. New zealand is a better country than america but its still a country. It still has a state.
If you are against government regulation I'm not sure NZ is the example you want to use... But lets not get into an argument between U.S and NZ regulations.
Quote:The native americans were doing just fine living without government. Then government was enforced upon them by the white man.
And which group was more technologically and academically superior? There is a reason for that...
Quote: rudeboyoi
The native americans were doing just fine living without government. Then government was enforced upon them by the white man.
The Natives totally had a gov. Look up "Iroquois Confederacy". It wasn't a "gov" in the sense that it was wide reaching and all encompassing, rather it was more a matter of local consensus. But it was still "government", and many aspects of their gov were used in the creation of that of the United States'.
Granted, the Iroquois were one of the largest cultures of Natives pre-America, so perhaps other smaller tribes had no need for a gov. I'm admittedly not too familiar with the past cultures of Natives outside the Great Lakes region, so you may be partially right. But your statement which I quoted is not true.
Quote: rudeboyoiThe native americans were doing just fine living without government. Then government was enforced upon them by the white man.
Really?
The Iroquois confederacy had the great law of peace.
The Coastal Salish peoples had hereditary nobility, they own laws and leaders.
The Inuit had their own verbal laws, and shaman who enforced them.
Just to pick up a few...
To his credit, he manned up and tried it. In one case, the guy got "shot" and in another, he "shot" a guy in a situation much the same as in Ferguson. (for those in Rio Linda, the quotes are because it was a simulated exercise.)
Good for both sides here. Too bad the guy is going to have to find a new circle of friends as many haters are not going to talk to him again.
Quote: AZDuffman(for those in Rio Linda, the quotes are because it was a simulated exercise.)
WOW this really took me back. I used to read my grandfather's copies of the Limbaugh Letter when I was a kid. And his copies of Rush's first 2 books, where if I remember correctly Rio Linda was listed in the glossary.
work. Sometimes justice does prevail.
"Federal investigators interviewed more than 200 people and analyzed cellphone audio and video, the law enforcement officials said. Officer Wilson’s gun, clothing and other evidence were analyzed at the F.B.I.’s laboratory in Quantico, Va. Though the local authorities and Mr. Brown’s family conducted autopsies, Mr. Holder ordered a separate autopsy, which was conducted by pathologists from the Armed Forces Medical Examiner’s office at Dover Air Force Base in Delaware, the officials said."
And they came up with bupkis. Perfect.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/22/us/justice-department-ferguson-civil-rights-darren-wilson.html?_r=0
