The Matchplay nightmare
Here was the issue. As most of you know most casinos have changed the way the handle matchplay in recent years going against the real intend of 'matching your play' and limiting it to even money. This comes into play on BJ's where the true intent of say a $200 Matchplay coupon was to match your play and payout, meaning you would be paid $300 for a BJ and that $300 matched by the casino. Instead they now pay $300 plus and extra $200 (even money).
Now the process of taking even money is really a short cut of going through the motions of putting up the additional insurance side bet. Under normal circumstances, it works out the same. If dealer has NO BJ, you win 1.5 times wager on BJ but lose .5 wager on side bet = Even Money and if dealer does have BJ, you push the main bet, but win 2 times the side bet for again a total win of the same as your original bet.
So when I stated that I wanted even money on my blackjack, the discussion was what to do with the additional match play. Because they were paying me off before they really knew if I had won the hand or not, which is of course the requirement of winning the matchplay. I fully expected the outcome would be that they would wait until after the dealer checked for BJ to pay the matchplay portion of my wager and if the dealer had BJ, the coupon would just carryover til next bet. I was thrilled when they were so confused about how to handle the issue that they just went ahead and paid me the extra $200 before the dealer checked for BJ. As it turned out the dealer didn't have BJ, so it wouldn't have mattered. But if the dealer did have a BJ, I would have already been paid the matchplay portion of my wager as if it were a win. I wonder if they would have asked for it back?
This was a new one for me too as I have encountered getting BJ's with matchplays many times, just never a Blackjack while the dealer had an Ace up.
Any thoughts?
Quote: kewljI recently played a $200 matchplay coupon where I was dealt a BJ vs the dealer Ace. Being that I had held off on playing the coupon until the TC was +4, I opted for even money. This set off a 5 minute delay (literally) and discussion among pit personnel on how this should be paid.
Here was the issue. As most of you know most casinos have changed the way the handle matchplay in recent years going against the real intend of 'matching your play' and limiting it to even money. This comes into play on BJ's where the true intent of say a $200 Matchplay coupon was to match your play and payout, meaning you would be paid $300 for a BJ and that $300 matched by the casino. Instead they now pay $300 plus and extra $200 (even money).
Now the process of taking even money is really a short cut of going through the motions of putting up the additional insurance side bet. Under normal circumstances, it works out the same. If dealer has NO BJ, you win 1.5 times wager on BJ but lose .5 wager on side bet = Even Money and if dealer does have BJ, you push the main bet, but win 2 times the side bet for again a total win of the same as your original bet.
So when I stated that I wanted even money on my blackjack, the discussion was what to do with the additional match play. Because they were paying me off before they really knew if I had won the hand or not, which is of course the requirement of winning the matchplay. I fully expected the outcome would be that they would wait until after the dealer checked for BJ to pay the matchplay portion of my wager and if the dealer had BJ, the coupon would just carryover til next bet. I was thrilled when they were so confused about how to handle the issue that they just went ahead and paid me the extra $200 before the dealer checked for BJ. As it turned out the dealer didn't have BJ, so it wouldn't have mattered. But if the dealer did have a BJ, I would have already been paid the matchplay portion of my wager as if it were a win. I wonder if they would have asked for it back?
This was a new one for me too as I have encountered getting BJ's with matchplays many times, just never a Blackjack while the dealer had an Ace up.
Any thoughts?
My thought is how stupid they are to quibble about it and slow down the game. They should have paid you even money on the entire amount and congratulated you for the nice win. So many morons in this world.
ZCore13
Matchplay coupons are generally only for even money bets, so what's the issue? Pay even money and let's get onto the next hand.
I wonder if they would've had the same kind of discussion if it was a $5 matchplay coupon.
Quote: kewljI recently played a $200 matchplay coupon where I was dealt a BJ vs the dealer Ace. Being that I had held off on playing the coupon until the TC was +4, I opted for even money. This set off a 5 minute delay (literally) and discussion among pit personnel on how this should be paid.
Here was the issue. As most of you know most casinos have changed the way the handle matchplay in recent years going against the real intend of 'matching your play' and limiting it to even money. This comes into play on BJ's where the true intent of say a $200 Matchplay coupon was to match your play and payout, meaning you would be paid $300 for a BJ and that $300 matched by the casino. Instead they now pay $300 plus and extra $200 (even money).
Now the process of taking even money is really a short cut of going through the motions of putting up the additional insurance side bet. Under normal circumstances, it works out the same. If dealer has NO BJ, you win 1.5 times wager on BJ but lose .5 wager on side bet = Even Money and if dealer does have BJ, you push the main bet, but win 2 times the side bet for again a total win of the same as your original bet.
So when I stated that I wanted even money on my blackjack, the discussion was what to do with the additional match play. Because they were paying me off before they really knew if I had won the hand or not, which is of course the requirement of winning the matchplay. I fully expected the outcome would be that they would wait until after the dealer checked for BJ to pay the matchplay portion of my wager and if the dealer had BJ, the coupon would just carryover til next bet. I was thrilled when they were so confused about how to handle the issue that they just went ahead and paid me the extra $200 before the dealer checked for BJ. As it turned out the dealer didn't have BJ, so it wouldn't have mattered. But if the dealer did have a BJ, I would have already been paid the matchplay portion of my wager as if it were a win. I wonder if they would have asked for it back?
This was a new one for me too as I have encountered getting BJ's with matchplays many times, just never a Blackjack while the dealer had an Ace up.
Any thoughts?
As you say, Kewlj, even money is just a short cut to the ritual of insuring your blackjack. But it doesn't work in a 6/5 game, and there's a good argument that the $200 matchplay shouldn't pay the even money you might have expected in your circumstances.
If you go through the ritual of insurance you would put up $100. If the dealer has a 10-value card under then your $100 insurance bet pays $200 and your blackjack is a push--and your matchplay rides again. You can't insure your matchplay since it's not your initial wager.
If the dealer doesn't have a 10-value card under, as happened to you, then you lose the $100 insurance wager but your blackjack pays $300 and your matchplay pays $200.
So you win $200, and your coupon rides again if the dealer has a blackjack, and you win $400 ($500 less the $100 insurance wager) and forfeit the coupon if the dealer doesn't.
Matchplay coupons match your "play", or your wager, they don't match your outcome. If you were allowed to wager $10 and a matchplay coupon on a field bet at craps the casino would pay you 2:1 on your $10 wager if the shooter rolls a 2, but they would only pay you $10, matching your wager, on your matchplay. To avoid the debate that this and similar scenarios would create, most all casinos won't allow a matchplay coupon to be used where outcomes pay more than even money. This seems fair to me.
You made a bet with an even money matchplay, you took even money (making your hand an instant winner), and you got paid. This is what I would expect if I found myself in this situation. How could they even tell you they have to check the dealers hand if they're going to pay your actual wagered part of the hand? The moment you take even money the hand is resolved, and over for you.
Quote: RomesForgive me, but I don't understand why you wouldn't be paid instantly. When you choose to take even money you are making your hand an instant winner. Thus, you don't have to see if the dealer has BJ, your hand is an instant winner at a 1-1 rate (the whole point of 'even money'). You're right that even money should simplify any disputes over your matchplay, since it can only be paid in even money... so I don't see the confusion at all here.
You made a bet with an even money matchplay, you took even money (making your hand an instant winner), and you got paid. This is what I would expect if I found myself in this situation. How could they even tell you they have to check the dealers hand if they're going to pay your actual wagered part of the hand? The moment you take even money the hand is resolved, and over for you.
Even money isn't "really" an option--it's not a rule, but a short cut to insurance. If the casino requires that you take insurance when you declare even money, then the insurance outcome will not include the matchplay.
The matchplay coupon has no value when the wager is placed, only a possible future value once the initial bet is determined. And when the dealer's up-card is an ace that determination occurs after the Insurance option has concluded.
Quote: vendman1Most casinos I've played in will accept an insurance bet for less than half the original wager. Any smart casino would ...insurance is a big money maker for them with ploppies.
Depends. I think last time we discussed it, it was decided that the partial insurance was more +EV than full insurance (which is intuitive). So if saying no to partial insurance means they'll go for the 3:2, then you want to allow the partial insurance. But if saying no means they'll take the even money, that's better for the house.
Misleading title
Sounds like it turned out perfectly.
Quote: AxelWolfThe Matchplay nightmare?
Misleading title
Sounds like it turned out perfectly.
I agree. Christmas came early.
Quote: AxelWolfThe Matchplay nightmare?
Misleading title
Sounds like it turned out perfectly.
Yeah, it worked out ok. Did draw a lot of attention and I go out of my way to draw as little attention as possible, so that wasn't good.
The thing that struck me though was that these pit guys seemed to have no clue, how to handle this payout. I will admit, this scenario of drawing BJ vs dealer Ace and taking even money with a matchplay coupon up was a new one to me. But I would have thought THEY would have seen it before and knew how to handle it. And really the way they handled it was wrong. I am pretty sure after I was paid, if the dealer did indeed have blackjack, it would have then dawned on one of them that this was incorrect. But again, it all worked out. :)
Ever try doubling down on one? I remember back when stations and a few other places were sending out mass $50 Match plays and free Aces.Quote: kewlj
The thing that struck me though was that these pit guys seemed to have no clue, how to handle this payout.
They would make you (a good thing) Add the vale of the match play to the double down basically making you double down for more and they would also pay you for the match play. If you wanted to split they would try to do the same thing but you could argue that, if it was a bad situation.
Quote: AxelWolfEver try doubling down on one? I remember back when stations and a few other places were sending out mass $50 Match plays and free Aces.
They would make you (a good thing) Add the vale of the match play to the double down basically making you double down for more and they would also pay you for the match play. If you wanted to split they would try to do the same thing but you could argue that, if it was a bad situation.
I don't understand the scenario. Could you take me through the hand?
Quote: AxelWolfEver try doubling down on one? I remember back when stations and a few other places were sending out mass $50 Match plays and free Aces.
They would make you (a good thing) Add the vale of the match play to the double down basically making you double down for more and they would also pay you for the match play. If you wanted to split they would try to do the same thing but you could argue that, if it was a bad situation.
I've had places do the double down both different ways. Some require (allow) you to double for the whole total including Matchplay, others only let you double for the chip part of wager. I've never had a free ace coupon. I think they must have been popular before my time here. :(
Quote: GreasyjohnI don't understand the scenario. Could you take me through the hand?
Yes, GJ. Here's the scenario. I wagered $200, plus a $200 matchplay coupon. I was dealt Blackjack, while the dealer had Ace up. I asked for even money. After 5 minutes of conferring, they paid me, $400. My blackjack even money win, plus another $200 for the matchplay. Because I asked for even money, this payment was made BEFORE the dealer checked for blackjack (as even money normally is).
BUT, if the dealer did have blackjack, I should have only been paid $200 (my blackjack @ even money). The matchplay should not have been paid off in that situation as my hand was not a winning wager...it was a push (both blackjacks). In that case the matchplay coupon should have just carried over to the next hand. So despite the 5 minute conference, they got it wrong, IMO. It didn't matter because the dealer ended up not having blackjack, but if he did, I think they might have then realized the mistake and I wonder if they would have wanted the money back?
Quote: AxelWolf
They would make you (a good thing) Add the vale of the match play to the double down basically making you double down for more and they would also pay you for the match play. If you wanted to split they would try to do the same thing but you could argue that, if it was a bad situation.
During my most recent trip, I had the opportunity to double down on two Match Plays being used on Blackjack (which is interesting, because I only used three on Blackjack, total) and on both occasions, they allowed me to double for the amount of the $$$ bet + Match play.
Quote: kewljI've had places do the double down both different ways. Some require (allow) you to double for the whole total including Matchplay, others only let you double for the chip part of wager. I've never had a free ace coupon. I think they must have been popular before my time here. :(
Yes, GJ. Here's the scenario. I wagered $200, plus a $200 matchplay coupon. I was dealt Blackjack, while the dealer had Ace up. I asked for even money. After 5 minutes of conferring, they paid me, $400. My blackjack even money win, plus another $200 for the matchplay. Because I asked for even money, this payment was made BEFORE the dealer checked for blackjack (as even money normally is).
BUT, if the dealer did have blackjack, I should have only been paid $200 (my blackjack @ even money). The matchplay should not have been paid off in that situation as my hand was not a winning wager...it was a push (both blackjacks). In that case the matchplay coupon should have just carried over to the next hand. So despite the 5 minute conference, they got it wrong, IMO. It didn't matter because the dealer ended up not having blackjack, but if he did, I think they might have then realized the mistake and I wonder if they would have wanted the money back?
Kewlj, you're explaining your original post, which I responded to. My question was to AxelWolf and the coupon doubling down scenario. If you understood how that works I would like to know.
Quote: GreasyjohnKewlj, you're explaining your original post, which I responded to. My question was at AxelWolf and the coupon doubling down scenario. If you understood how that works I would like to know.
You are correct....my bad.
Place match play and $50 down get dealt 11 vs dealers 6. Go to double down and add $50 dealers say you also have to add another 50 for the match play. Now you have $150 bet. Dealer busts and pays you $200. $150 for the double down and $50 for the match play.Quote: GreasyjohnI don't understand the scenario. Could you take me through the hand?
Quote: AxelWolfPlace match play and $50 down get dealt 11 vs dealers 6. Go to double down and add $50 dealers say you also have to add another 50 for the match play. Now you have $150 bet. Dealer busts and pays you $200. $150 for the double down and $50 for the match play.
I haven't had the opportunity to play that many matchplays, but I'm surprised that a store would require you to double on one like that. I would have thought you'd just double your $50 wager as usual, and if you won you'd get $100 + $50 for the matchplay. In the scenario above they're allowing you to get even more money onto the table in a favorable situation.
Match Plays always pay their face value, never any sort of odds.
Match Plays have no cash value. Therefore, any double downs and splits are done with disregard for the Match Play. To that end, you may play a Match Play underneath a max bet.
Even though Even Money is correctly defined as a shortcut for insurance, in a blackjack-versus-ace even money scenario, the even money payout is treated as a discounted win, not an insurance shortcut. To that end, the Match Play is paid its even money payout before the dealer checks. I understand why that's technically the wrong way to do it, but doing it the right way is more time-consuming, more confusing and prone to dealer mistakes, and more ticky-tack from the player's perspective. It's worth the loss in house EV to concede this point to avoid any unpleasantness.
Quote: AxelWolfYes they used to give them out like candy. I have about 10 $25 match plays, just to lazy to go play them. Saving them for a rainy day, I didn't notice an expiration. Could probably get off 4 or 5 since they are good on most games.
I have a blackjack pays 2:1 coupon for the Pioneer Club in Laughlin without an expiration date or dollar amount. Years ago I called and ask them and they said you could play it for any amount, so that should mean up to a table limit.
Imagine playing $500 a hand waiting for your blackjack (I'm just guessing that that's their table limit). Too rich for me. That's just the right time to get a bad run of luck.
I've played blackjack with what was essentially a blackjack pays 3:1 coupon at Stratosphere some years ago. Played for an hour single-o at $25 a hand. Lost $1,000 and never got a blackjack. Left with the coupon. (If you bet $17 a hand they would pay you $25.50 and then double your win up to $25 thereby giving you another $25). That's technically a blackjack pays 2.97:1... but you get the idea. I used to bet $ 17 with that coupon when they had a $10 min DD game open and the count was negative. Then I decided that a $17 wager just stuck out too much and made $20 my min. About 5 years ago or so they got rid of the coupons.) On a side note, they used to have $10 matchplays there too. Me and a friend put $10 on the pass line with our coupons neatly underneath, waiting for our exciting ride. Next roll, "12 craps pay the field."
