The Welch, isn't Tom Jones
The term immediately conjures memories of some jerk that makes a bet, loses said bet and then decides not to pay the winner. Maybe his welch was of the first degree in nature, premeditated, and he had no intentions of paying for his loss anyway. Or maybe she lost a bet that she couldn't afford to satisfy once resolved. The term itself is used ubiquitously even when circumstances aren't always cut and dried.
Can a welch ever be mitigated based on circumstances? What conditions and consideration must be met before a bet is established as a bet? Can the terms reneg and welch be used interchangeably?
Quote: MaxSwelleCan a welch ever be mitigated based on circumstances? What conditions and consideration must be met before a bet is established as a bet? Can the terms reneg and welch be used interchangeably?
A debt holder could choose to forgive the debt for whatever reasons they deem appropriate - this is their privilege. In my opinion, a debtor does not have the privilege to choose not to satisfy the debt.
If the parties involved clearly stated and agreed to the terms, it's a bet. If the terms weren't clearly stated (a hustler move), then maybe it's not a bet.
Reneg is not interchangeable with welch. I consider welching to be a subset of renegging - welching is renegging, but not all renegging is welching.
Around here, a case of beer is a pretty common bet on the outcome of a sporting event. A welch that one individual pulled was to pay with a case of 12 ounce beers, instead of the agreed on brand of 16 ounce beers. If memory served, after considerable social pressure (nobody took his action anymore), he did satisfy the difference with additional 12 ounce beers, and after some grousing by the debt holder (something about extra trips to the fridge, in an interesting tangent on fungibility).
Somewhat unrelated: it's common to expect the payout on these wagers ("betcha a 12 pack") to be the nastiest beer available (even if it's at additional expense to the debtor) when a particular variety/size isn't specified. That's not a welch. (It's also often served right back to the payer if they come over to watch the next game, although it's usually usable for cooking.)
Quote: MaxSwelleCan a welch ever be mitigated based on circumstances?
A better question is: are private gambling debts legally enforceable?
My understanding is that private gambling debts are not legally collectible in many/most state courts, as they are deemed illegal or a violation of public policy.
If that is so, then no money is owed.
Period.
Quote: MrVA better question is: are private gambling debts legally enforceable?
My understanding is that private gambling debts are not legally collectible in many/most state courts, as they are deemed illegal or a violation of public policy.
If that is so, then no money is owed.
Period.
That is correct. By virtue of agreeing to perform an illegal act, any attempt to enforce the collection of monies created by the illegal act should be voided. That would be a chicken shite way of handling things. I'd consider this explanation as a white collar welch.
Quote: MrVA better question is: are private gambling debts legally enforceable?
My understanding is that private gambling debts are not legally collectible in many/most state courts, as they are deemed illegal or a violation of public policy.
If that is so, then no money is owed.
Period.
Is welch even a legal term?
If it is not than collection on a welched bet belongs in the netherworld where pain is still a strong deterrent.
That's just the sort of thing welchers say to rationalize welching.Quote: MrVA better question is: are private gambling debts legally enforceable?
My understanding is that private gambling debts are not legally collectible in many/most state courts, as they are deemed illegal or a violation of public policy.
If that is so, then no money is owed.
Period.
Quote: onenickelmiracleThey're looking for the term weaseled. Sometimes it's only used because one side thinks there is an agreement when things still aren't complete.
Determining ones intent acts as a great arbitrator when deciding how to handle most disputes. If a person(s) is honest about their intent, then resolution can be easily achieved. That method efficiently solves problem within small circles of friends/family/associates. People on the periphery, who easily find themselves agitated, are best left alone; I learned that the hard way recently.
Quote: petroglyph...where pain is still a strong deterrent.
The death penalty isn't a murder deterrent, therefore I doubt pain deters welching. Pride, perhaps?
Quote: MaxSwelleThe death penalty isn't a murder deterrent, therefore I doubt pain deters welching. Pride, perhaps?
Debt [$] isn't usually the motivation behind murder. This is getting too serious for my tastes, thanks.
If you don't think pain is a deterrent ask any junkie to welched on his dealer after the dealer made it clear how they feel about making good on their debt.
Ask a hooker with two black eyes and a habit how they feel about not paying what was agreed.
All debts aren't white collar.
Sun Tzu would probably say something like "dead people can't pay"? However the IRS still isn't convinced
Quote: petroglyphDebt [$] isn't usually the motivation behind murder. This is getting too serious for my tastes, thanks.
If you don't think pain is a deterrent ask any junkie to welched on his dealer after the dealer made it clear how they feel about making good on their debt.
Ask a hooker with two black eyes and a habit how they feel about not paying what was agreed.
All debts aren't white collar.
Sun Tzu would probably say something like "dead people can't pay"? However the IRS still isn't convinced
Maintaining a relationship with the bookie is what probably keeps most gamblers current. A degenerate gambler is more worried about getting his fix than he is about a few busted ribs. Maybe. Hell, I live in Vegas; I've never met a bookie. (that I know of)
Quote: MaxSwelleThe death penalty isn't a murder deterrent, therefore I doubt pain deters welching. Pride, perhaps?
It has deterred 100% of those executed from murdering again.
Quote: RonCIt has deterred 100% of those executed from murdering again.
I can't argue with that logic. Well said.
Quote: MaxSwelleThat is correct. By virtue of agreeing to perform an illegal act, any attempt to enforce the collection of monies created by the illegal act
It's like those people who call 911 when they
get ripped off in a drug deal.
Quote: MaxSwelleThe death penalty isn't a murder deterrent, therefore I doubt pain deters welching. Pride, perhaps?
When I was collecting for Bookies in Baltimore, fear of pain deterred welching in almost all situations.
Quote: BuzzardWhen I was collecting for Bookies in Baltimore, fear of pain deterred welching in almost all situations.
In Get Shorty, Travolta is a Mob collection guy.
He's asked what happens if a guy doesn't pay.
Travolta says he doesn't know, they always pay.
Always. He leaves out the details of why they
pay, which makes it ominous.
Quote: JimRockfordThat's just the sort of thing welchers say to rationalize welching.
No, it's the kind of thing a lawyer says to the client who asks "Can a welch ever be mitigated based on circumstances?"
But hey, you and all the others on this board are free to make all the legally unenforcible bets you want, and to castigate those who don't pay that which is not legally owed.
Quote: MrVNo, it's the kind of thing a lawyer says to the client who asks "Can a welch ever be mitigated based on circumstances?"
But hey, you and all the others on this board are free to make all the legally unenforcible bets you want, and to castigate those who don't pay that which is not legally owed.
Funny but those guys who welch, never have a problem when they win. As far as I am concerned an illegal pay may be collected by illegal means. Julius "The Lord" Salisbury always said he could not buy his wife a new Cadillac with somebody's broken leg. Actually the best threat was to ensure the welcher could not get action anywhere else.
But when some smart ass pulled the old illegal bet bullshit, that's when Tony Baldoni would come down from Pa. Tony lasted 1 minute and 41 seconds against Sugar Ray Robinson. It was Tony's last of 42 fights. ( 30-11-1tie ) The welcher would be walking down a crowded street weeks after not paying, and suddenly he would collapse on the sidewalk . Passerbys never ever saw the punch that broke his jaw.
Quote: BuzzardDick gets a postponement. And if arm doesn't heal, the option to call off the bet. DUH!
Why do you always have to respond like a smart ass? It's my understanding that you're an older feller-I'd appreciate a little more civility from you. I'll do the same. So, please answer my question-would Dick's broken arm qualify as a mitigating circumstance?
Quote: MaxSwelleWhy do you always have to respond like a smart ass? It's my understanding that you're an older feller-I'd appreciate a little more civility from you. I'll do the same. So, please answer my question-would Dick's broken arm qualify as a mitigating circumstance?
It seems perception is everything? I'm not getting smart ass out of Buzzards comments at all, it seems like he is just telling it like it is.
wtf maybe I'm weird, idk
isn't pressure. Playing a private game for $500 when
you have 10 bucks in your pocket is pressure.
Quote: EvenBobWasn't it Lee Trevino who said playing in a tourney
isn't pressure. Playing a private game for $500 when
you have 10 bucks in your pocket is pressure.
"Nobody but you and your caddie care what you do out there, and if your caddie is betting against you, he doesn't care either." Classic Trevino.
