Thomas
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August 29th, 2014 at 10:28:04 AM permalink
Playing double double bonus VP
If for example you are dealt AAA 2 7 in that order
You hold AAA and catch A 8 in that order
My question is;
If you made a poor decision
and held the 2,
would the A appear where the 8 appeared
AxiomOfChoice
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August 29th, 2014 at 10:49:25 AM permalink
Quote: Thomas

Playing double double bonus VP
If for example you are dealt AAA 2 7 in that order
You hold AAA and catch A 8 in that order
My question is;
If you made a poor decision
and held the 2,
would the A appear where the 8 appeared



I believe that if you hit the draw button at the exact same time, yes.

At least, that is what they assume when a button sticks or something, causing you to make a bad hold, and they rewind the hand and pay you for what you would have gotten. They assume that the cards would have come out in the same order, left-to-right.

In reality it doesn't really matter what would have happened.

If you want to hold the deuce you should play TDB :) It's way more fun.
Ibeatyouraces
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August 29th, 2014 at 10:50:21 AM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Thomas
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August 29th, 2014 at 10:54:22 AM permalink
So, in essence, you're saying that the second draw cards aren't set until you hit the draw button?
AxiomOfChoice
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August 29th, 2014 at 10:55:25 AM permalink
Quote: Thomas

So, in essence, you're saying that the second draw cards aren't set until you hit the draw button?



Yes. They are being continuously shuffled until you it the button. Then when you hit the button it stops shuffling and draws from the top.

So, the next time you miss a draw, it's your fault -- you pushed the button at the wrong time!
thecesspit
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August 29th, 2014 at 10:57:10 AM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Yes. They are being continuously shuffled until you it the button. Then when you hit the button it stops shuffling and draws from the top.

So, the next time you miss a draw, it's your fault -- you pushed the button at the wrong time!



Is that -actually- how it is coded, or is that the RNG is polled at the point of the press to go and grab a new card out of the available ones?
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
Thomas
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August 29th, 2014 at 10:58:08 AM permalink
I guess I was under the mistaken impression that once you touched the deal button,
all ten cards were set, those you are dealt, and the possible 5 cards you could draw.
That's not at all what you are telling me, correct?
Eaglesnest
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August 29th, 2014 at 10:59:51 AM permalink
There are basically two ways a VP RNG deals: in one version, the virtual deck is shuffled and ten cards are dealt in sequence. The first five form the initial hand; the remaining five are placed as potential (re-)drawn cards. In the other version, the stub of the deck (the remaining 47 cards after the initial deal) is reshuffled by the RNG and as many cards as are requested by the player are dealt.

The first version uses less processor power, so you'll see that method mostly in older machines. There's no practical difference between the two dealing methods in terms of results, though. To answer your specific question, yes, with many older machines, the fourth A would be the "next" (sixth) card no matter what. With newer machines, the potential drawn card changes about 250,000 times a second, so any change you make, even a very slight hesitation, will produce a different drawn card 46/47ths of the time.
DRich
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August 29th, 2014 at 11:00:45 AM permalink
Quote: Thomas

I guess I was under the mistaken impression that once you touched the deal button,
all ten cards were set, those you are dealt, and the possible 5 cards you could draw.
That's not at all what you are telling me, correct?



That used to be the case but it has changed to help prevent people from cheating by finding a way to examine the memory of the computer and seeing what cards are waiting to be given out.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Thomas
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August 29th, 2014 at 11:04:17 AM permalink
Aha,
Thank you
Thomas
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August 29th, 2014 at 11:12:35 AM permalink
How are winning percentages determined? Payouts specifically?
Can they be determined by a micro-chip placed within the machine
or are the payouts strictly determined by the skill of the player and
and the posted pay table?
thecesspit
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August 29th, 2014 at 11:28:09 AM permalink
Quote: Thomas

How are winning percentages determined? Payouts specifically?
Can they be determined by a micro-chip placed within the machine
or are the payouts strictly determined by the skill of the player and
and the posted pay table?



The pay table and perfect strategy results in the expected house edge (or return).

On type III machines which are to all intents the same as if used a deck of cards and played in person.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
Thomas
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August 29th, 2014 at 11:32:32 AM permalink
Returns are not posted in some of the casinos I have visited.
Could it be possible for some machines to have as low a return as 70%?
AxiomOfChoice
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August 29th, 2014 at 11:35:10 AM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

Is that -actually- how it is coded, or is that the RNG is polled at the point of the press to go and grab a new card out of the available ones?



What's the difference?

The random number picked is just an encoding of an ordering of the cards. As long as the RNG is constantly cycling through numbers there is no difference -- that's just an implementation detail.

The only important question is, will you get different cards if you push the button at a different time, and my understanding is that the answer is yes.
AxiomOfChoice
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August 29th, 2014 at 11:37:13 AM permalink
Quote: Thomas

How are winning percentages determined? Payouts specifically?
Can they be determined by a micro-chip placed within the machine
or are the payouts strictly determined by the skill of the player and
and the posted pay table?



Assuming that this is real video poker (and not pull-tabs or some bingo game or something) the return is determined by how well you play and what the payouts are. The max return is what you get with perfect play, and therefore is determined solely by the payouts.

Any video poker game that you see in Nevada is real video poker. In another state, check the local laws.
Thomas
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August 29th, 2014 at 11:45:20 AM permalink
I just have a difficult time believing Mississippi and Louisiana casinos
give the same return as Vegas casinos, ( same pay tables) as I have
played 1000's of hours in those venues, and Vegas casinos outshine
the others in all categories. I have hit numerous royals in Vegas, including
one in sequence on a quarter machine at the Golden Nugget a few years
back.
AxiomOfChoice
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August 29th, 2014 at 11:52:12 AM permalink
Quote: Thomas

I just have a difficult time believing Mississippi and Louisiana casinos
give the same return as Vegas casinos, ( same pay tables) as I have
played 1000's of hours in those venues, and Vegas casinos outshine
the others in all categories. I have hit numerous royals in Vegas, including
one in sequence on a quarter machine at the Golden Nugget a few years
back.



I have no ideas what the laws are there. Is that real VP?

You may just be running really well in Vegas. Back-to-back royals are very rare; much (much much) less than once-in-a-lifetime. If you played 1000 hands per hour for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, you are only going to see back-to-back royals once every 750-800 years or so.
DRich
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August 29th, 2014 at 12:01:16 PM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

I have no ideas what the laws are there. Is that real VP?

You may just be running really well in Vegas. Back-to-back royals are very rare; much (much much) less than once-in-a-lifetime. If you played 1000 hands per hour for 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, you are only going to see back-to-back royals once every 750-800 years or so.



Yes, both Mississippi and Louisiana have standard class III video poker in the casinos. It sounds to me like the OP has just been luckier in Las Vegas.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
Thomas
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August 29th, 2014 at 12:02:31 PM permalink
Never hit two in a row, but hit two on the same machine once all within a two hour span.
Aces w/kicker twice and numerous quads also, some common and some 2's 3's'& 4's
All on the same machine, it was smoking! Was that just coincidence, or was that machine cycling,
or was I just extremely lucky in my timing of pushing the buttons?
AxiomOfChoice
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August 29th, 2014 at 12:09:21 PM permalink
Quote: Thomas

Never hit two in a row, but hit two on the same machine once all within a two hour span.
Aces w/kicker twice and numerous quads also, some common and some 2's 3's'& 4's
All on the same machine, it was smoking! Was that just coincidence, or was that machine cycling,
or was I just extremely lucky in my timing of pushing the buttons?



You were lucky. It happens. I've gone on runs like that as well.
thecesspit
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August 29th, 2014 at 12:27:35 PM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

What's the difference?



Cos I am curious on the implementation, rather than the ultimate effect on the output. In this case.

Quote:

The random number picked is just an encoding of an ordering of the cards. As long as the RNG is constantly cycling through numbers there is no difference -- that's just an implementation detail.



Indeed. Seems a waste to be constantly shuffling an array, and I was curious is the developers did do that. And if so, why?

If I was coding it, I'd do the following:

deck = [ace_of_spades, ace_of_clubs, ...]
repeat(5){ i ->
card = deck.pop(random_number(deck.size()))
}
Display card[]
On redraw(card number):
card[card number] = deck.pop(random_number(deck.size()))

No need for a shuffle, and random_number(x) comes from whatever source you are using.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
Dieter
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August 29th, 2014 at 2:21:22 PM permalink
Quote: thecesspit


If I was coding it, I'd do the following:

No need for a shuffle, and random_number(x) comes from whatever source you are using.



I think at least one of the approval standards says that cards have to be drawn fairly from a randomly shuffled deck.

Not shuffling, not shrinking the deck, may be a (slightly) more complicated problem to solve with discards / redraws.
May the cards fall in your favor.
thecesspit
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August 29th, 2014 at 2:44:44 PM permalink
Quote: Dieter

I think at least one of the approval standards says that cards have to be drawn fairly from a randomly shuffled deck.

Not shuffling, not shrinking the deck, may be a (slightly) more complicated problem to solve with discards / redraws.



You can pop from a random location in the array (at least I can in my favoured language). Removes the need to do a shuffle on the list. Though you can if you so wish and pop for the top of the array each time. Then it's a pre-ordered list, so if you now take the 6th card, it's value is already decided before the 5th card was dealt. Unless you shuffle before that 6th card draw. But why bother, just take at random from some where between [0..46] in your array.

IF you trust your RNG is properly random.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
mickeycrimm
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August 29th, 2014 at 3:37:09 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

Yes, both Mississippi and Louisiana have standard class III video poker in the casinos. It sounds to me like the OP has just been luckier in Las Vegas.



Its been a few years back, and I can't remember who made the study. It may have been Paladin, a former member of vpFREE. But he studied the video poker regulations in all the jurisdictions in the country and determined that Louisiana had the strictest vp regs.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
AxiomOfChoice
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August 29th, 2014 at 3:42:59 PM permalink
Quote: mickeycrimm

Its been a few years back, and I can't remember who made the study. It may have been Paladin, a former member of vpFREE. But he studied the video poker regulations in all the jurisdictions in the country and determined that Louisiana had the strictest vp regs.



What was it that made it stricter than others? Were there paytable minimums or something?
Dieter
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August 29th, 2014 at 4:02:08 PM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

You can pop from a random location in the array (at least I can in my favoured language). Removes the need to do a shuffle on the list. Though you can if you so wish and pop for the top of the array each time. Then it's a pre-ordered list, so if you now take the 6th card, it's value is already decided before the 5th card was dealt. Unless you shuffle before that 6th card draw. But why bother, just take at random from some where between [0..46] in your array.

IF you trust your RNG is properly random.



I agree that they're functionally equivalent, I'm just not sure that the "simpler" method will meet with the approval of the regulators.

Dealing randomly from the middle of a new deck is not the same as dealing sequentially from a randomly ordered deck, even if the results are the same.

I think the shuffle is a regulatory, not a technical, requirement.
May the cards fall in your favor.
Dieter
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August 29th, 2014 at 4:09:38 PM permalink
Louisiana Video Draw Poker Devices Control Law (keep clicking "next section" in the upper left corner)

Quote:

C. Each video draw poker device shall offer the game of draw poker or such other card games as are approved by the division and have the following method of operation:

(1) The cards must be shuffled after each hand is dealt.

(2) The card games must utilize a deck of cards consisting of fifty-two standard playing cards, and up to two jokers may also be used. The deck must be shuffled by use of a random number generator to exchange each card in the deck with another randomly selected card.

(3) After shuffling, a required number of cards must be dealt from the top of the deck.

(4) Any discarded cards must be replaced by remaining cards in the deck, starting with the next subsequent card and using the cards in the order of the deck.



... And that's why I think you can't just go dealing from the center of the deck.
May the cards fall in your favor.
Eaglesnest
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August 29th, 2014 at 4:10:27 PM permalink
Quote: Dieter



Dealing randomly from the middle of a new deck is not the same as dealing sequentially from a randomly ordered deck, even if the results are the same.

I think the shuffle is a regulatory, not a technical, requirement.



Actually, it is exactly the same thing. If the card is truly randomly chosen, then when that choice takes place (during or after the initial deal) is irrelevant as long as the array from which the card is chosen (the remaining 47 cards after the first five are dealt, in this case) is the same.

The existing regulations don't mandate how the shuffle is executed, only that it be truly random (even though no one has yet invented a true RNG).
Dieter
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August 29th, 2014 at 4:15:57 PM permalink
Quote: Eaglesnest

Actually, it is exactly the same thing. If the card is truly randomly chosen, then when that choice takes place (during or after the initial deal) is irrelevant as long as the array from which the card is chosen (the remaining 47 cards after the first five are dealt, in this case) is the same.

The existing regulations don't mandate how the shuffle is executed, only that it be truly random (even though no one has yet invented a true RNG).



That's not how I read the regulation listed above. The reg would seem to require a Fisher-Yates type shuffle, and sequential dealing from the top (or bottom) of the deck.
May the cards fall in your favor.
AxiomOfChoice
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August 29th, 2014 at 4:21:12 PM permalink
Quote: Dieter

That's not how I read the regulation listed above. The reg would seem to require a Fisher-Yates type shuffle, and sequential dealing from the top (or bottom) of the deck.



But, define "shuffled". It says nothing about how they have to be stored. I can claim that a random number is simply an encoding of a shuffled deck. So I can just pick a random number and that is that. There is no requirement that the "cards" be stored in an array.
Dieter
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August 29th, 2014 at 4:35:36 PM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

But, define "shuffled". It says nothing about how they have to be stored.



Quote:

The deck must be shuffled by use of a random number generator to exchange each card in the deck with another randomly selected card.



I believe it's clear that their intention is that the deck is randomly ordered before the deal.
May the cards fall in your favor.
Hunterhill
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August 29th, 2014 at 5:33:31 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

That used to be the case but it has changed to help prevent people from cheating by finding a way to examine the memory of the computer and seeing what cards are waiting to be given out.


So is this also how it is in pick'em poker. Or do you get different cards depending on which card you pick. Assuming you push the button at the same time.
The mountain is tall but grass grows on top of the mountain.
RS
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August 29th, 2014 at 5:44:24 PM permalink
It was my understanding that VP machines can work in 2 ways. Although, perhaps I'm not correct.

1) When you click the draw button, 5 cards are randomly chosen. Card #1 goes into the first open slot. Card #2 goes into the second open slot. Etc.

2) When you click the draw button, 5 cards are randomly chosen. Card #1 will go into slot #1 if slot #1 is open. Card #2 will go into slot #2 if slot #2 is open. Etc.
tringlomane
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August 29th, 2014 at 8:01:41 PM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

What was it that made it stricter than others? Were there paytable minimums or something?



Well for one, Louisiana requires 99% confidence intervals for RNGs (a good number of other states do now too), but Nevada still only requires 95%. I assume most modern units easily make 99% confidence though. After that though, I'm not sure what's more impressive about their laws vs. Nevada's.
CrystalMath
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August 30th, 2014 at 3:25:47 AM permalink
Quote: RS

It was my understanding that VP machines can work in 2 ways. Although, perhaps I'm not correct.

1) When you click the draw button, 5 cards are randomly chosen. Card #1 goes into the first open slot. Card #2 goes into the second open slot. Etc.

2) When you click the draw button, 5 cards are randomly chosen. Card #1 will go into slot #1 if slot #1 is open. Card #2 will go into slot #2 if slot #2 is open. Etc.



Every video poker I've ever worked with used option 2, including IGT. Option 1 is just as valid, I've just never seen it implemented that way.
I heart Crystal Math.
mickeycrimm
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August 30th, 2014 at 10:12:28 AM permalink
Quote: AxiomOfChoice

What was it that made it stricter than others? Were there paytable minimums or something?



I really don't know, other than what Dieter and Tring put up. I'm going to try and contact Paladin and see if he will join WoV. He was an extremely interesting and highly knowledgeable video poker pro.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
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