What on earth could possibly be the catch to this game?

Hello, nice to meet you all. First time on this forums. I've been reading the wizard of odds site for gambling information for a few months now, and learned a lot from it. I heard there are many experts of gambling experts on this forums, so I'm giving it a try as I encountered a very puzzling situation.

I recently started playing on an online casino called "Lincoln Casino". LC uses a very rare software provider called "Wager Gaming Technology" As I tried to find my information with google, I realized the game in question is unique to the WGT software. And does not exist elsewhere.

The name of the game is called "10 high hold'em" It's a table game played against the dealer. First, I will summarize the rules for you, and then I will post the complete rules from the game help file.

The game has 1 main bet and 2 side bets. I'm not interested in side bets since Wizard said all side bets are sucker bets. For the main bet, you are dealt 2 cards and so does the dealer. And then 5 card is dealt as the community. Whoever has the higher hand, choosing the best 5 from 7 wins. Bets push if tie.

The bet is placed before any card is dealt. It's pretty much equivalent to forcing 2 players to constantly go all in preflop in real poker. Therefore THERE IS NO INPUT HENCE NO SKILL.

The actual rules are as follows:





I may not be the best at math, but, this basically just screams 0% house edge? Players and dealers are doing the exact same thing, which is 2 hole cards + 5 community cards. Tie bets push. This should be text book coin flip shouldn't it?

But that's not supposed to be true for any casino game. The house is ALWAYS supposed to have an edge, so what could possible be the catch here? My first suspicion was due to how much it resembles pai gow poker (player and dealer do roughly the same things), tie bets are won by dealer or commission taken for winning. But neither is true, and I've observed more than 300 hands and noticed that all dealer wins are genuine legitimate wins, aka would win if this were real poker.

My second thought was the game may be rigged. But Lincoln Casino displays a "Certified Fair Gaming" seal on their page that claims they are audited by Charles Mousseau, B.Sc. every month. But yet, Casinomeister refuses to accredit another casino that uses WGT due to "unfamiliar with the software" and left it at the reservation. Given that the game seems to have a 0% house edge, there would be more reason to suspect rigged software.

Basically am I missing something here? To all my knowledge and analysis ability this seems like a 0% house edge game. If that is true, the "deal" button might as well be written as "Press for free comp points" button.

Here's a video I found on youtube of someone playing the game https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLsJHgYLv-M

If you would like to test the game yourself that would be much appreciated. I tested it for over 300 hands and saw nothing suspicious. Unfortunately, you'll probably need to register an account to play for fun, this isn't Bovada :/

So I'm left with the question,

Since it is highly unusual for a no-skill casino game to be 0% House Edge, what on earth could possible be the catch?

Thanks to all gambling math experts in advance.

Player has to use one of his hole cards always, dealer can use community only. For instance, royal flush on board, you lose. Not sure what the house edge is but I bet it's significant.

The catch is, while the dealer's hand can be built from any 5 of his 7 cards, you have to use one of your hole cards in your hand. This makes it slightly more likely for the dealer to win.

I was wrong

The house edge is that the dealer can use just the community cards.

I was wrong, thank you guys for noticing where the house edge comes from.

So, the next thing I'd be very curious to know is how large is the house edge then? To not use any of your hole cards, the board has to be either a straight + (excluding 4 of a kind) or 2 pair + kicker higher than both yours/dealer's cards.

Feels like that would be extremely rare. 1 in 100 hands maybe? Definitely less than how often dealer wins pushes in pai gow. So, I'd estimate 0.5% house edge max?

The rules clearly say dealer does not have to use his cards. If it was a push then there is something wrong with the software. Also they may be willing to put up a low house edge game knowing that people will play the side bets.

Quote: BatMann

So, the next thing I'd be very curious to know is how large is the house edge then? To not use any of your hole cards, the board has to be either a straight + (excluding 4 of a kind) or 2 pair + kicker higher than both yours/dealer's cards.

No, that is not true. There doesn't even need to be a pair on the board.

If the board is AKQJ9 and neither you nor the dealer has a card above 8, the board plays and the dealer wins, despite the board being just ace-high.

You push 3.2542% of the time. Of that, remove times you held the same ranks and suits didn't matter. My estimate is over a percent but less than two.

Quote: BatMann

I was wrong, thank you guys for noticing where the house edge comes from.

So, the next thing I'd be very curious to know is how large is the house edge then? To not use any of your hole cards, the board has to be either a straight + (excluding 4 of a kind) or 2 pair + kicker higher than both yours/dealer's cards.

Feels like that would be extremely rare. 1 in 100 hands maybe? Definitely less than how often dealer wins pushes in pai gow. So, I'd estimate 0.5% house edge max?

Cumulative probability of the board straight or better is 0.76% you have to subtract here the ones that does not make the dealer win, such as having a straight card in your hand despite the board is straight.

So I estimate probably at most half that. 0.38%

And then add the rare situations of what axiom said, around 0.5% now

Quote: Neutrino

Cumulative probability of the board straight or better is 0.76% you have to subtract here the ones that does not make the dealer win, such as having a straight card in your hand despite the board is straight.

So I estimate probably at most half that. 0.38%

And then add the rare situations of what axiom said, around 0.5% now

don't forget to divide by 2 since you lost a push bet instead of a winning bet.

so ~0.25% house edge now

2 pair + high kicker is not rare, though. Not that those are all pushes, but most are.

1 pair + 3 high cards is less common, but it still happens.

On the other hand, I would guess that most flushes on board are not board-plays pushes.

Also, I have no idea why you are dividing by 2. That makes no sense at all. Turning a push into a loss costs you a whole bet, not half a bet.

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

Also, I have no idea why you are dividing by 2. That makes no sense at all. Turning a push into a loss costs you a whole bet, not half a bet.

Opps

The house edge is approximately 1.325%.

Quote: JB

The house edge is approximately 1.325%.

Since the tie probability in poker is 3.2542%, that means 40.7% of all chops are completely board.

Hmm... interesting

Too bad this was just fake money.

Click for larger picture.
Edit to add:
Here the board plays and I lose.

Coming soon: house edge on the side bets.

Quote: miplet

Too bad this was just fake money.

Click for larger picture.
Edit to add:
Here the board plays and I lose.

Coming soon: house edge on the side bets.

Omg 10k lol!

Management will not be obligated to provide a reason for refusing any withdrawal request or be liable for its decision
Management reserves the right to alter the Terms and Conditions of its promotions at any time

Quote: AxelWolf

Management will not be obligated to provide a reason for refusing any withdrawal request or be liable for its decision
Management reserves the right to alter the Terms and Conditions of its promotions at any time

Does this T&C make house edge 100.00% ?

Quote: 4ofaKind

Does this T&C make house edge 100.00% ?

Absolutely not. I have played with worst T&C and online casinos with bad reputations and have been payed properly. I would just be wary and do a bit more research(so many options online). I have found that casinos who word T&C like this are far more likely to stiff you for any technicality they can think of.

Thanks for all the answers everyone. This cleared things up

Quote: AxelWolf

Absolutely not. I have played with worst T&C and online casinos with bad reputations and have been payed properly. I would just be wary and do a bit more research(so many options online). I have found that casinos who word T&C like this are far more likely to stiff you for any technicality they can think of.

Just curious what sources do you use for your research of online casinos?

I regularly check all the sites that handle player complaints. To my knowledge there are 4 major ones. Casinomeister, The pogg, Gambling Grumbles, and Ask Gamblers. I also noticed wizard has a blacklist but since he basically said "It's industry standard to confiscate AP money, therefore that is not a criteria to be on my blacklist" the blacklist is obviously not going to hold much value.

But generally speaking there are problems with all of them and I wish there was one clean, non corrupt site that has solid information.


Casinomeister is accurate and conclusive when it comes to negative casinos (Rogue list), however, he is quite corrupt when comes to accredited casinos. The way he defends iNetbet (very sketchy/predatory casino) is insane, including closing threads, banning members, and just general power abuse as admin when it comes to any iNetbet complaint thread (And there's plenty of those threads due to iNetbet constantly confiscating players). As I've seen, such corruption also applies to lesser extents to Deck media, Club world, Fortune Lounge etc. Overall, I use casinomeister to gain information on which casinos are bad, not which ones are good.

The Pogg is probably my favorite and most used site. Its weakness is that its blacklist is very badly maintained. However, here I can generally find solid unbiased information that I couldn't find on casinomeister. It shows quite well which casinos are good and backs it up with sufficient evidence. It has another weakness in that it does not hold that much power to the casinos. Casinomeister holds most power to the casinos, and the Pogg is second. Casinos may often time ignore the Pogg's ruling whereas they don't usually dare to do that to casinomeister.

Gambling grumbles is even weaker than the Pogg in terms of power over the casino, and is constantly seen having their ruling and decisions ignored by the casinos. However they do have a fairly decent blacklist and hall of shame and less biased than casinomeister. They are probably truly "player advocates", while the pogg is more "mediation", and CM/AG are just basically affiliate sites.

Ask Gamblers has literally no power whatsoever. All he does is let the player and casino take turns talking to each other in public. The casinos can get away with making "publicly acceptable statements" like a politician and still screw the player over. All ask gambler does then is mark the complaint as either complete or incomplete. I think using the site for dispute resolution is just silly, but it is a very valuable information site for seeing how other players are treated by certain casinos.


The above is my experience and research method. Can you teach me yours?

Quote: BatMann

Casinomeister is accurate and conclusive when it comes to negative casinos (Rogue list), however, he is quite corrupt when comes to accredited casinos. The way he defends iNetbet (very sketchy/predatory casino) is insane, including closing threads, banning members, and just general power abuse as admin when it comes to any iNetbet complaint thread (And there's plenty of those threads due to iNetbet constantly confiscating players). As I've seen, such corruption also applies to lesser extents to Deck media, Club world, Fortune Lounge etc. Overall, I use casinomeister to gain information on which casinos are bad, not which ones are good.

I too have noticed casinomeister's "corruption" with iNetbet. I'm glad I'm not the only one that noticed it. I believe I know his motivation. Don't forget he's an affiliate after all.

Inetbet has "negative carryover" for their affiliates despite the vast majority of online casinos does not. This makes it extremely harmful to the affiliate if the people he referred are winning (APs especially) and significantly benefits the affiliate if the casino can successfully confiscate the player's money. Inetbet's manager and customer support are extremely hypocritical and manipulative as seen in forum discussions on casinomeister, I wouldn't be surprised if they negotiated like a 70% affiliate cut for casinomeister.

What makes present unregulated online casinos special is the opportunity online players have to get multiple gambles all crunched into every bet they make.

1) Has the game being played online ever been tampered with after approval and launch? If not, prove it…

2) If a player wins and has the balls to cash out, will that withdrawal be denied for any one of hundreds of tricky bait and switch T&C’s?

3) If the withdrawal is approved, will the player ever receive it?

4) If it’s a large amount with a weekly max cash-out the player even gets to sleep on egg shells gambling that the next weekly payment will continue which could take several months to complete the pay off.

5) If the player is getting screwed they get to gamble on the self appointed regulator, “Casinomeister” who with his kangaroo colluded court get to decide on your outcome. Don’t be alarmed that the casino you’re up against pays his salary. He’s a very honest and righteous man. Just look and compare how many decisions go against any casinos on his accredited list, and how many go against the casinos not on that payola list. Of course when an accredited casino goes full blown rogue over night he has no options, but I believe that’s the only time you’ll see decisions against his employers.

Now, what land based seriously regulated casino can give you that kind of action for your buck?

Here is the 10+ Paytable converted to TO 1. 19.6% . Way too top heavy if you ask me.

HAND	COMBINATIONS	PAYS	PROBABILITY	RETURN
Quad 10's	311328	999	0.0001108135562	0.1107027426
10's Full of ?	4071600	249	0.001449238345	0.3608603478
? Full of 10's	3031776	99	0.001079125167	0.1068333916
Trip 10's	7603200	9	0.002706270012	0.02435643011
Pair of 10's	109980288	4	0.03914619573	0.1565847829
Loser	2684477568	-1	0.9555083572	-0.9555083572
Total	2809475760		1	-0.1961706621

Quote: miplet

Here is the 10+ Paytable converted to TO 1. 19.6% . Way too top heavy if you ask me.

HAND	COMBINATIONS	PAYS	PROBABILITY	RETURN
Quad 10's	311328	999	0.0001108135562	0.1107027426
10's Full of ?	4071600	249	0.001449238345	0.3608603478
? Full of 10's	3031776	99	0.001079125167	0.1068333916
Trip 10's	7603200	9	0.002706270012	0.02435643011
Pair of 10's	109980288	4	0.03914619573	0.1565847829
Loser	2684477568	-1	0.9555083572	-0.9555083572
Total	2809475760		1	-0.1961706621

damn, 20% house edge. top heavy means high variance, sigh, I hate high variance + high house edge bets.

I remember you posted on my Bovada thread a few months ago. I just re-read it and I was very shocked at what you said about my then-unfamiliar RTG software.

So you're saying the "3 slot RTP on RTG slots" rumor is false? Damn, then if that is the case someone please stand up and stop those people from saying it.

I read a thread on casinomeister before on whether a rogue operator running a well established software like microgaming or RTG can rogue the game. Everybody said no.

Also don't all the major sites go through regular audits to stop them from rigging the games?

And does having back end access mean they can "tighten" the slots/rig the games for a customer they don't like? (especially an AP)

I am paranoid about online casinos for sure, probably not as paranoid as you are but I am pretty cautious. My profits per month seems to be mostly consistent with the expected EV of my plays. So I guess the chance of the games I played being rigged is kinda small.


P.S. I am disgusted by the way casinomeister treats bovada. Clear anti-US bias there.

I was trusted with several back-end screen shots of RTG’s software with explanations of what could be done with this access only accessible for certain and selected owners that were given some type of personal digital key. I was also told that these selected owners that had these keys were all previous employees of the RTG software company, and that their were 7 or 8 of them that went on to own RTG casinos.

I couldn’t believe what I was being told and shown and immediately stopped gambling online and refused to keep my mouth shut.

I trusted casinomeister with several of these screen shots (several years ago) with what I was told they exposed. He said he would send them to RTG for an explanation and he certainly did, since I was contacted within days from my source who couldn’t believe I sent them to him, since RTG obviously contacted the owner of the RTG casino they came from.

Weeks go by and no communication from casinomeister. No e-mails or pm’s through the forum at all. Meanwhile, I’m catching all kinds of hell endlessly from my source that trusted me with this information, and at times will admit felt threatened.

Suddenly, after about a month he responds on the forum in the thread where this was being discussed, that RTG explained that one of the screen shots were nothing more then some type of format they use to figure out how to create bonuses. What????? Are you fn kidding me???

He starts trashing me and said he was on holiday a day after I send him these screen shots and tried communicating with me several times but I never responded. Complete lie since every day several times a day I was checking my e-mails waiting to hear from him. I even sent him several more e-mails requesting to know what was going on never getting a response once. One of the major software brands he sponsors accused with proof of fraud and he goes on vacation for a month the whole time this is being looked into.

Conclusion after month of silence: Screen shots prove nothing. The RTG casino the screen shots came from is suddenly closed down within days after casinomeister announces they mean nothing. I’m awarded the tin-hat conspiracy ass-hole award at casinomeister. Shortly after award and still raising hell I’m banned.

This really got me interested in what type of regulation is actually in place for online gaming and I began endless research. Obviously, like everyone should know by now there is absolutely no regulation enforcement after launch, never was and still isn’t.

Quote: Neutrino

So you're saying the "3 slot RTP on RTG slots" rumor is false? Damn, then if that is the case someone please stand up and stop those people from saying it.

Who told you that RTG only had 3 possible different rtp settings? Casinomeister or some internal connection he has that won't come forward? May I suggest you contact RTG directly and request a formal confirmation of that fact. If that doesn't work out contact the regulating body that issued the RTG casino you play at their license. They surely should be able to direct you to the regulations that require casinos to only have 3 certain required rtp options.

If the regulations authorize casinos to operate at any rtp they want as long as it's above 78% and not lower, find out why RTG only has 3 rtp settings and all happen to be in the 90's?