Another bovada issue? Pai gow
June 17th, 2014 at 7:21:57 PM
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May not be an issue Becuase I cannot find the rules on the site anywhere but in 20 years of pai gow never have seen a house play this way is there an error here with the joker?
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June 17th, 2014 at 7:40:05 PM
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sorry i updated the pic
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June 17th, 2014 at 7:40:09 PM
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http://i.imgur.com/1jvqc9Z.jpg
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June 17th, 2014 at 7:50:33 PM
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I can't speak for Bovada at all. However, I have seen house way like this before, because the AK acts like a pair for the house (in that it takes a pair to beat it, with the house winning ties). The pair/AK hold could, in a HW ensuring the strongest possible top, be stronger than the flush w/ 94 top. So, while it's possible it's a glitch, I think it's more likely their house way.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
June 17th, 2014 at 8:53:46 PM
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I'm certainly no paragon of maximum EV, but that hand feels right to me.
Intuitively, I'd imagine online PGP to have a few hands that look wonky to one who typically plays PGP at a B&M casino. After all, casino's house way is made to give a good return while also minimizing dealer mistakes. This easier to remember house way isn't maximized as a result.
Online, there is no need to do so. The server (should) know perfect house way and be able to make a decision immediately. Could that difference be what we're seeing?
Intuitively, I'd imagine online PGP to have a few hands that look wonky to one who typically plays PGP at a B&M casino. After all, casino's house way is made to give a good return while also minimizing dealer mistakes. This easier to remember house way isn't maximized as a result.
Online, there is no need to do so. The server (should) know perfect house way and be able to make a decision immediately. Could that difference be what we're seeing?
The opinions of this moderator are for entertainment purposes only.
June 17th, 2014 at 9:12:30 PM
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deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
June 17th, 2014 at 9:17:04 PM
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Most online casinos including five dimes only play the pair if it's tens or higher I've never seen this way and there have been programming errors with the software and the joker issue before in other casinos- just trying to find out what house rules theybuse
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June 17th, 2014 at 10:29:53 PM
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Wow. That's an incredibly aggressive play for a house way.
Casinos are not your friends, they want your money. But so does Disneyland.
And there is no chance in hell that you will go to Disneyland and come back with more money than you went with.
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June 18th, 2014 at 6:16:35 AM
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I emailed bovada and I got a response with this answer - how would you interpret it because they say they use standard Paigow rules yet not a single casino I've ever seen sets this rule Thanks for contacting Bovada Casino Customer Service.
We understand you're inquiring about how our Casino set hands in Pai Gow Poker. Rest assured we'll provide useful information to help you out.
Our Casino uses the same rule as what the traditional Pai Gow Poker uses. After you set your hand, you'd need to select two cards that will be compared to the dealer, to determine the winner. The dealer will turn over his cards and divide his hand in the same manner.
To further enhance your experience we wish to recommend a great site for you that will help you when gaming:
https://wizardofodds.com/games/pai-gow-poker/
We understand you're inquiring about how our Casino set hands in Pai Gow Poker. Rest assured we'll provide useful information to help you out.
Our Casino uses the same rule as what the traditional Pai Gow Poker uses. After you set your hand, you'd need to select two cards that will be compared to the dealer, to determine the winner. The dealer will turn over his cards and divide his hand in the same manner.
To further enhance your experience we wish to recommend a great site for you that will help you when gaming:
https://wizardofodds.com/games/pai-gow-poker/
The bet will not be paid- not now not ever
June 18th, 2014 at 8:22:41 AM
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does anyone have a link to their house way?
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June 18th, 2014 at 8:35:52 AM
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Obviously, the person who responded doesn't understand PGP and/or doesn't doesn't understand what "house way" refers to.
But we need to get a reply from Dan or JB. Both have worked strategy pretty thoroughly. JB said that his is horribly complex and only shaves a hair off his simple strategy. But for a computer, there's no reason that the house way can't be complex and have hundreds of exceptions.
Frankly, since this hand would have pushed either way, I'd say it's probably an acceptable way/exception.
But we need to get a reply from Dan or JB. Both have worked strategy pretty thoroughly. JB said that his is horribly complex and only shaves a hair off his simple strategy. But for a computer, there's no reason that the house way can't be complex and have hundreds of exceptions.
Frankly, since this hand would have pushed either way, I'd say it's probably an acceptable way/exception.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
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June 18th, 2014 at 9:31:50 AM
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JB is best to answer, but I would assuredly play the hand the way the house did IF I WAS BANKING. The AK as the bank essentially makes the hand equivalent to 9's and 2's. I would always play them split over a flush with a dismal 9-4. My casino's house way would be the flush and 9-4,; if it were 10's they would play the 10's and the AK.
The most interesting question is this..... If the player has no access to the house ways, he essentially is playing a game with hidden rules....
Should a player have full access to the house ways? I think so....
The most interesting question is this..... If the player has no access to the house ways, he essentially is playing a game with hidden rules....
Should a player have full access to the house ways? I think so....
June 18th, 2014 at 9:50:30 AM
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100 percent correct, im basically getting zero answers from bovada other then the rules there is no where on the site that list the house way and im dumbfounded support and bovada support on here keep answering my emails and pm but they do not understand what im asking, withouth knowing houseway its a major issue and the software could literally change at any time, what an extreme disadvatage
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June 18th, 2014 at 9:53:48 AM
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still need to know the rules one way or the other, im getting beyond frustated this is not the first time this has happened at a casino online i found a glitch on five dimes back in the day when aj345 with 22 as the top hand was only recognized as a pair of aces and not the straight therefore creating a push when it was a starigh on the bottom- they pulled the game down for 3 weeks to fix it but it took me literally 30-40 emails of explaining, most people that work there and even the software comapny didnt have the first clue about the rules
The bet will not be paid- not now not ever
June 18th, 2014 at 10:46:01 AM
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Quote: strictlyAPI emailed bovada and I got a response with this answer - how would you interpret it because they say they use standard Paigow rules yet not a single casino I've ever seen sets this rule Thanks for contacting Bovada Casino Customer Service.
We understand you're inquiring about how our Casino set hands in Pai Gow Poker. Rest assured we'll provide useful information to help you out.
Our Casino uses the same rule as what the traditional Pai Gow Poker uses. After you set your hand, you'd need to select two cards that will be compared to the dealer, to determine the winner. The dealer will turn over his cards and divide his hand in the same manner.
To further enhance your experience we wish to recommend a great site for you that will help you when gaming:
https://wizardofodds.com/games/pai-gow-poker/
This is a form letter. The person who wrote this does not understand your question and probably does not understand English.
The "We understand that you're inquiring about _________. Rest assured we'll provide useful information to help you out." part is the form. They fill in the blank. Then they copy and paste something from their rules that doesn't answer your question.
Horrible customer service.
June 18th, 2014 at 10:53:45 AM
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Agreed unfortunately this has been going in two days now
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June 18th, 2014 at 11:47:56 AM
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The way this particular hand was set is the best way to set it (regardless of who is banking):
Flush/94 is worth 0.025097 (0.025387 if banking)
Pair/AK is worth 0.156681 (0.225148 if banking)
Since Bovada runs customized RTG software, their PGP game most likely uses the RTG house way, which can be found here.
There is a rule for "Flush > Flush and Pair > Any other One Pair, Joker" which says "The two cards will be the Joker and the highest singleton not from the flush." However, in this case, both the Joker and the King were from the Flush, which there is no specific rule for. So lacking a rule for this specific case, I think the next-best rule applies, the One Pair rule, which says to play the highest two singletons in the low hand.
Flush/94 is worth 0.025097 (0.025387 if banking)
Pair/AK is worth 0.156681 (0.225148 if banking)
Since Bovada runs customized RTG software, their PGP game most likely uses the RTG house way, which can be found here.
There is a rule for "Flush > Flush and Pair > Any other One Pair, Joker" which says "The two cards will be the Joker and the highest singleton not from the flush." However, in this case, both the Joker and the King were from the Flush, which there is no specific rule for. So lacking a rule for this specific case, I think the next-best rule applies, the One Pair rule, which says to play the highest two singletons in the low hand.
June 18th, 2014 at 11:53:32 AM
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Ty so much jb- just wish they would publish this somewhere otherwise it leads to these issues
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June 20th, 2014 at 6:18:05 PM
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All this discussion about pai gow poker on Bovada, I decided to play a little.
I am a total low roller at bovada, just poker. 2 cent 5 cent cash game and 2 dollar tournaments. The rakes are the standard percentage so its all cool.
I feel I am getting good value.
I decide to buy in for 10 bucks in chips just to test the waters for pai gow poker
Pai gow min bet is a buck so I play.
After winning and losing and pushing I suddenly notice the rake/commission and have a WTF moment.
25 per cent. WTF. my god.
I only lost 2 bucks lol. still, 25 cent commission off a buck win. ridiculous.
Bovada can cater to low roller poker players but not pai gow? Why not a percentage? I read the rules, 5 per cent commission, minimum 25 cents.
I pay pennies in poker rakes, why a quarter min for pai gow? Its software, not labor.
Oh well, I'll save my pai gow play for a real casino, there I feel real cards, live dealer, friendly conservations, drinks off set commission.
I am a total low roller at bovada, just poker. 2 cent 5 cent cash game and 2 dollar tournaments. The rakes are the standard percentage so its all cool.
I feel I am getting good value.
I decide to buy in for 10 bucks in chips just to test the waters for pai gow poker
Pai gow min bet is a buck so I play.
After winning and losing and pushing I suddenly notice the rake/commission and have a WTF moment.
25 per cent. WTF. my god.
I only lost 2 bucks lol. still, 25 cent commission off a buck win. ridiculous.
Bovada can cater to low roller poker players but not pai gow? Why not a percentage? I read the rules, 5 per cent commission, minimum 25 cents.
I pay pennies in poker rakes, why a quarter min for pai gow? Its software, not labor.
Oh well, I'll save my pai gow play for a real casino, there I feel real cards, live dealer, friendly conservations, drinks off set commission.
Its just a forum. Nothing here to get obsessed about.
June 21st, 2014 at 11:07:09 PM
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no nickel odds at bovada? Not good in my book, thats "forcing" a $5 minimum so to speak.
edit: looked at pix, yup, 9's/AK... IIRC they would do this with 8's and just maybe 7's/AK. the later borderline/close.
One can glean this from the Wiz's page listing the 2 and 5 card ranks.
edit: looked at pix, yup, 9's/AK... IIRC they would do this with 8's and just maybe 7's/AK. the later borderline/close.
One can glean this from the Wiz's page listing the 2 and 5 card ranks.
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
