Edge Sorting
Quote: SonuvabishCan you just walk into a casino and start sorting Mississippi stud or 3-card? Or is this more complicated than it sounds? Very little info about it. If I went to a dead casino, that changes card once every 2 hours switching between two decks every hand--what is the problem? I have read that 99.9% of cards have no visible asymmetry; I have also read that most cards have visible asymmetry--so that info is useless. I know the cards I have are asymmetrical, which I did not buy at a casino. I have never examined a casino card. Obviously there is a problem, because nobody is doing it. Of course, I rarely see counters, and I know that works and is easy to do, so not seeing anyone is conclusive evidence that most people are bad players, nothing more. AP comments?
Sure you could. I have no idea how long it would take to get the target cards aligned before the information became usable, but it's all obviously worthless if the dealer turns a portion of the deck before putting them into the machine.
Quote: SonuvabishCan you just walk into a casino and start sorting Mississippi stud or 3-card? Or is this more complicated than it sounds? Very little info about it. If I went to a dead casino, that changes card once every 2 hours switching between two decks every hand--what is the problem? I have read that 99.9% of cards have no visible asymmetry; I have also read that most cards have visible asymmetry--so that info is useless. I know the cards I have are asymmetrical, which I did not buy at a casino. I have never examined a casino card. Obviously there is a problem, because nobody is doing it. Of course, I rarely see counters, and I know that works and is easy to do, so not seeing anyone is conclusive evidence that most people are bad players, nothing more. AP comments?
It is harder than it sounds.
First, before you try sorting anything:
1. Can you notice imperfections in the cut of the cards with a quick glance? You need to immediately be able to tell one edge from the other.
2. Have you found a casino dumb enough to not turn the cards before the shuffle?
These things are both easy to determine by walking by the table and watching a hand or two. If the answer to either of these questions is no, you can turn the cards all you want but it's not going to help.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceIt is harder than it sounds.
First, before you try sorting anything:
1. Can you notice imperfections in the cut of the cards with a quick glance? You need to immediately be able to tell one edge from the other.
2. Have you found a casino dumb enough to not turn the cards before the shuffle?
These things are both easy to determine by walking by the table and watching a hand or two. If the answer to either of these questions is no, you can turn the cards all you want but it's not going to help.
1) I can on my own cards. Never examined a casino's cards.
2) I have never examined their procedure, although from memory it seems like they just grab them and put them in the shuffler.
I am just attempting to find out whether this is worth further investigation, at the casino. With the lack of interesting blackjack strategy-related threads lately, it seemed like a good time to post. IBYA's concern about errors doesn't worry me, because this a more appealing idea to me than shuffle-tracking.
I think you should walk by ever game in every casino to see if there's something you can beat.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceSure, it's worth further investigation, because the investigation takes 2 minutes. You look at the cards and you watch the shuffle procedure.
I think you should walk by ever game in every casino to see if there's something you can beat.
Bring your walking shoes! It's tougher on you than you think!
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceSure, it's worth further investigation, because the investigation takes 2 minutes. You look at the cards and you watch the shuffle procedure.
I think you should walk by ever game in every casino to see if there's something you can beat.
I meant serious investigation. What are the chances of finding a beatable game? The chances of finding a beatable blackjack game are close to 100% per casino. If the chances are close to 0%, I would immediately abandon the idea. One poster has commented "of course you can just walk in", but you have stated it is not so simple.
Then you need to have these differences be visible to you at a time it will aid in your betting
But edges are likely to be useless unless you've been able to 'sort' the cards during play so that the shoe shows either a good edge or a bad edge.
Casinos often turn cards during the shuffle, if so edge sorting is defeated.
Chances are few casinos are vulnerable which is why that poker player had to ask that it be done 'for luck'.... so try getting a stupid employee in a casino that wants your high level action.
Quote: SonuvabishI meant serious investigation. What are the chances of finding a beatable game? The chances of finding a beatable blackjack game are close to 100% per casino. If the chances are close to 0%, I would immediately abandon the idea. One poster has commented "of course you can just walk in", but you have stated it is not so simple.
I just think that if you are already in a casino you should walk by and see. 99% of the time you don't need any further investigation to rule it out.
Quote: SonuvabishI meant serious investigation. What are the chances of finding a beatable game? The chances of finding a beatable blackjack game are close to 100% per casino. If the chances are close to 0%, I would immediately abandon the idea. One poster has commented "of course you can just walk in", but you have stated it is not so simple.
I was being somewhat sarcastic with my comment. I mean, sure you can walk in and try to align edges by key value cards, but it's worthless if the cards are symmetric, and even if asymmetric, they need to be to a degree that you can notice the asymmetry from a little distance. And then there is the turn that dealers should be making before the shuffle. Just because you haven't noticed it, doesn't mean it isn't happening.
Finally, suppose you find the perfect conditions, it takes a long while working alone to align the cards you need when dealing with two decks and only touching 2-3 cards per round. You will need help to speed this up and more importantly to keep others from joining the game and messing up the edges.
Like Axiom, I'm not discouraging you from looking from opportunities, but these are the challenges. I watch for opportunities but haven't come across one yet that I'd feel comfortable spending time and risking money on. Good luck!
Quote: MidwestAP
Finally, suppose you find the perfect conditions, it takes a long while working alone to align the cards you need when dealing with two decks and only touching 2-3 cards per round. You will need help to speed this up and more importantly to keep others from joining the game and messing up the edges.
And hope the dealer doesn't pick up your cards differently once or twice. I sometimes flip a player's cards horizontally, sometimes vertically, and it has nothing to do with game protection. Sometimes, one is more comfortable than the other.
Quote: DeucekiesAnd hope the dealer doesn't pick up your cards differently once or twice. I sometimes flip a player's cards horizontally, sometimes vertically, and it has nothing to do with game protection. Sometimes, one is more comfortable than the other.
I toyed around with the idea of edge sorting a local hand-dealt double deck game. But even without a turn, when they pitch the cards to you, they are flying through the air and rotating. So, kind of makes it more difficult.
Quote: AcesAndEightsI toyed around with the idea of edge sorting a local hand-dealt double deck game. But even without a turn, when they pitch the cards to you, they are flying through the air and rotating. So, kind of makes it more difficult.
That's ok; you can look at those cards :)
You would need both a hole carding opportunity and an edge sorting opportunity to make the game a very productive one for an AP.
If you are thinking about edge sorting this game then you should get a team together and inf weak games. I haver to say that after Ivey's exploits you will be hard pressed to find any game that doesn't have a turn.
Good luck though!
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceThat's ok; you can look at those cards :)
Exactly, it is the dealers hole card you are worried about :)
IANAL
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceThat's ok; you can look at those cards :)
Yes, but it would take multiple runs through the deck to get enough cards sorted to get an advantage. And if all the cards being dealt to the players are getting re-randomized, it would negatively impact your attempts at getting everything oriented.
Quote: AcesAndEightsYes, but it would take multiple runs through the deck to get enough cards sorted to get an advantage. And if all the cards being dealt to the players are getting re-randomized, it would negatively impact your attempts at getting everything oriented.
Oh, yeah, you need to be alone at the table or with a team. You can't do this with civilians at the table.
Still, if that's the only thing that's stopping you... how hard is it to get your own table at 4am?
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceOh, yeah, you need to be alone at the table or with a team. You can't do this with civilians at the table.
Still, if that's the only thing that's stopping you... how hard is it to get your own table at 4am?
I think said casino has incorporated a turn into their shuffle these days, with all of the news. Also, indolence :p.
Quote: Mission146There is a question of intent, there, I think. I think that the dealer could potentially be guilty of fraud if he knew why it was being done and cooperating, otherwise, I think he would be in the clear. I don't believe the player would be guilty of anything, either way, can't see how.
IANAL
What if 1) there is no protocol that says he has to pick them up any certain way and 2) I told him I can't tell you WHY because that would expose you to liability. Therefore, just know that I want you to do this, and I am going to pay you $X.
Quote: Sonuvabish
What if 1) there is no protocol that says he has to pick them up any certain way and 2) I told him I can't tell you WHY because that would expose you to liability. Therefore, just know that I want you to do this, and I am going to pay you $X.
The intelligent thing to do would be just to deny any a priori arrangement, how could it be proven?
Quote: Mission146The intelligent thing to do would be just to deny any a priori arrangement, how could it be proven?
The intelligent thing to do would be to stay far, far away from anything that could possibly be interpreted as an a priori arrangement. There are enough games that can be beaten in ways that are clearly legal; do you really want to walk this line?
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceThe intelligent thing to do would be to stay far, far away from anything that could possibly be interpreted as an a priori arrangement. There are enough games that can be beaten in ways that are clearly legal; do you really want to walk this line?
Personally, I don't, just stating my opinion that it would be difficult to prove. My visual acuity is too inferior for me to edge sort well, anyway.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceThe intelligent thing to do would be to stay far, far away from anything that could possibly be interpreted as an a priori arrangement. There are enough games that can be beaten in ways that are clearly legal; do you really want to walk this line?
Yes, if it is legal, for a 30-50% advantage. What is that like $10,000 per day? No I wouldn't walk the line. I'd jump up and down on it and dare someone to push me off...what would I do for $100,000 a day? I would temporarily change sexual orientation! I'm a total sell out.
with the deck sorted and knowing the next card if big or small every decision will be the correct one.
with a team and the deck totally sorted the game will be crushed,and with the deck sorted now playing only 3 persons (to kill variance) with 3 slots-a-time for every of the two double decks are (3*2=6 + 3 cards hitted = 9 for round . 52cards/9= 6 rounds per double deck(with 50% penetration),there are two DD sorted,so will be available 12 rounds with sorted cards to place high bets. 12 rounds betting high is not a small thing...
i found a deck in a casino with imperfection i easily recognize.
they use automatic shuffler 'deckmate', the only doubt is if the deckmate do the shuffle and rotate cards by 180 degrees or not..(in this case the sorting will be lost),i think it should shuffle it in line...someone knows something more?
do you think this method could work?
Quote: thecure1979the bj DD edge sorting seems very interesting. with a 8 person team will be necessary 20 rounds to sort 2 DD (4 decks) in high card (9 10 ace) and low cards (2 to 8), even if with a 50% penetration,obviously betting small and never hitting a new card (because dealer giving it face up it is impossible to touch and sort it). Now with all nearly 104 cards sorted up and down is possible to start betting high, doubling 9 10 11 when next card is high, hitting with 12 to 16 when next card is small for example, splitting eights or nines when next card is high,also hitting with 4 to 6 when next is small.
with the deck sorted and knowing the next card if big or small every decision will be the correct one.
with a team and the deck totally sorted the game will be crushed,and with the deck sorted now playing only 3 persons (to kill variance) with 3 slots-a-time for every of the two double decks are (3*2=6 + 3 cards hitted = 9 for round . 52cards/9= 6 rounds per double deck(with 50% penetration),there are two DD sorted,so will be available 12 rounds with sorted cards to place high bets. 12 rounds betting high is not a small thing...
i found a deck in a casino with imperfection i easily recognize.
they use automatic shuffler 'deckmate', the only doubt is if the deckmate do the shuffle and rotate cards by 180 degrees or not..(in this case the sorting will be lost),i think it should shuffle it in line...someone knows something more?
do you think this method could work?
Everywhere I've played since the Phil Ivey incident, they have added a cut and rotate 1/2 the deck(s) to the shuffle for all games. I don't know what, if anything, is being done with CSM's; haven't played with those. I don't think they would do it manually if the machine could do it.
Quote: beachbumbabsEverywhere I've played since the Phil Ivey incident, they have added a cut and rotate 1/2 the deck(s) to the shuffle for all games. I don't know what, if anything, is being done with CSM's; haven't played with those. I don't think they would do it manually if the machine could do it.
This is interesting - doing a "deck return rotate" on a CSM:
Dealer can re-insert on discarded cards with a right-hand "over" to left hand, to insert the returns to machine half of the time, then do a right hand "under pass" to left hand on return to machine on alternate returns, - without it being obvious to players or floor, except to AP players.
This will rotate alternating discard returns to the CSM.
Quote: thecure1979they use automatic shuffler 'deckmate', the only doubt is if the deckmate do the shuffle and rotate cards by 180 degrees or not..
I don't believe that the deckmate does a turn internally.
All the places I've seen, there's a turn incorporated into the slug, when loading the deck into the shuffler. Once the cut card comes out and the hands are swept away, the dealer sets the deck on the felt, takes the top half of them and puts them on top of the discards, takes the discard stack, turns it, puts it on top of the remaining deck, loads it into the shuffler.
I'm assuming it's a pitch game (dealt from hand, not a shoe, face down), otherwise you can't turn the cards. All the cards dealt to players will get their edges scrambled every round, too.
Good luck, but I think you'll find that the basic game security may thwart your efforts.
you said.."..All the cards dealt to players will get their edges scrambled every round,".. yes it's true,but it's not a problem ,me and other team players can sort the card for a second an further times by the way we players can touch the cards...
With this system every dealt card (excepet the 2 dealer's cards)will be re-sorted and stay that way in the deck.after 20 rounds with 8 players and minimum bet and hitting no card (max hitting 1-2 for round to push any suspects away)we get nearly 90% of the deck sorted , after that the 20 sorting rounds players will remain just 4 and bets turns into high bets,(sorting effects will stay for 12 rounds, and betting more for 12 rounds could let earn a lot...), but we know the next card in advance!
i found a casino in eastern europe close to where i live with the deck with visible and repeated imperfection on the back,they put the deck in shuffling machine "deckmate" (the one used at poker tables,which is not continous shuffling,i post it at bottom post),after the shuffling they take the deck from the machine in the same way they inserted in and let the player do the cut then they start dealing without rotating the deck before...
At the moment i've never observed any turn (because they think it's enough the machine for a correct shuffle),i'll check better this sunday and i'll try to identify some turn on procedure..
obviously is important doing the procedure (which is based on 30 rounds) only one time in a casino and max once in a month...
if there is no half deck turn as i think i discovered a mine...
what do you think about? could it work fine?
deckmate:
Quote: beachbumbabsEverywhere I've played since the Phil Ivey incident, they have added a cut and rotate 1/2 the deck(s) to the shuffle for all games. I don't know what, if anything, is being done with CSM's; haven't played with those. I don't think they would do it manually if the machine could do it.
Any place going this on games where players do not handle the cards is stupid.
