Debating Roommating (Split from BJ:friends as teammates)

Quote: kewlj

A solo player for most of my blackjack career, I have partnered with my friend and one of my housemates for two years now. At the beginning of this year we took in our third housemate, a poker player, who had expressed a desire to join our ‘team’. I thought I had posted about some of the issues involved with training him earlier this year and now that this second partner and teammate has decided that blackjack play is not for him, I wanted to update, but can’t find the thread. It’s possible maybe I didn’t post those experiences on this site as I had thought, but I am still going to post this update as I think this experience, even though it didn’t work out, of working with friends as teammates, might benefit others.

So end of last year, my third housemate, who is a pretty unsuccessful poker player (sounds mean but true) expressed a desire to join our team. The one stipulation that I insisted on was no poker while he was a member of our team. I couldn’t have him having access to team funds and still playing his weak poker game on the side for obvious reasons. He not only agreed, but indicated he was done with poker and ready to move on. I reluctantly agreed.

So we began training in December at home. Being a non-BJ player, I was starting from scratch, basic strategy and all. In January we hit the tables, with him playing half my stakes. Well, same minimum but only half my regular top wager (smaller spread). I worked with him a great deal, watching his sessions more than playing my own. At first he was slow to pick up some things and I was concerned. But I take responsibility for that as I am surely not the best teacher. I have trained one other player, my current partner, but he knew the game and knew counting fundamental. It was just a matter of getting him to do things my way. With, this second attempt it really was starting from scratch. So I think maybe it wasn’t as much as he was slow to catch on to some things as it was my expectations were too high.

But anyway after a couple months he really came around. Things seemed to be clicking and he made great progress. I moved him up to full stakes and he was doing quite well. His one issue was that he was not very strong dividing fractions, so some of his true count conversions involving fractions were not as precise as mine are.

But despite that his game was growing stronger and his results were good, actually above EV, while mine lagged below EV, he has decided that playing blackjack for a living is not his calling and wants to return to playing poker. So, we have broke our bank and I paid him his share of winnings for this partial year and he is off to resume his poker career. I can’t tell you that I am not greatly disappointed in this development. Nor can I tell you that I am not a little hurt and a little angry. I put a lot of time and effort into working with him, especially the first couple months of this year. Time and effort, that as a direct result of, my amount of play and subsequently EV suffered from. In other words, there was a personal financial cost.

I do feel a little bit used right now. As it turned out, he just got a little payday about 17 grand for 3 and a half months, (which incidentally I think is more than he has made in his poker career) and went running back to what he was doing. But, I guess, I can’t really be mad that Blackjack is not his passion as it is mine, nor can I be mad that poker is his passion, (unfortunately for him, I don’t think he’s very good at it).

So even though I am disappointed and hurt at the moment, I tend to get over things and move on quickly, so I hope it will not effect our friendship too much going forward. That is the real danger of getting involved in a team situation with friends. The benefit is that hopefully, you have less trust issues with a close friend, but if it goes bad, it can cost you a friendship. Luckily I don’t think that is the case here.

So the bottom line is I am back to my 2 man partnership with my other house mate and dear friend, which has been working real well for a couple years. He handles all our machine play activities and plays a limited amount of blackjack and I log the majority of the amount of our blackjack play by about a 3-1 ratio. In a way even though a partnership, since the majority of play comes from me, it is almost like I am still a solo player, which I do believe is my strength.

So what I take forward from this experience is do be careful when working with friends. This blackjack stuff is tricky business. Friends as teammates, has the potential to end badly (worse than my situation) and cost you a friend as well as teammate.

I don't mean this is in a bad way, and if it's none of my business, please just ignore it. But I have a question. If a member of your team, including yourself, is making in the vicinity of 40-80K per year, why do you have roommates? Does housemate imply a different relationship?

Quote: Sonuvabish

I don't mean this is in a bad way, and if it's none of my business, please just ignore it. But I have a question. If a member of your team, including yourself, is making in the vicinity of 40-80K per year, why do you have roommates? Does housemate imply a different relationship?

I have made six figures each of the last two years, but I don't really understand the question. You are implying that anyone who makes a decent living must live alone?

I don't think members are that interested in reading about my living arrangements, but I did discuss it some in the interview that Mission did on this site last year. I am gay and my one housemate is my best friend and partner. We lived together back in Philadelphia and when I relocated to Vegas, he initially didn't want to move but decided to follow a year later, so we now live together again (different bedrooms, I like my own space). My second roommate is guy I met just after I moved here (vegas). A poker player. He was living out of his car, with occasional comped rooms when I met him, and I started letting him crash on the sofa of my condo just off the strip and I have provided a place for him to live ever since. When I moved into my house last year, I made sure he would have a bedroom. He is just a friend...no implied other relationship.

Quote: kewlj

I have made six figures each of the last two years, but I don't really understand the question. You are implying that anyone who makes a decent living must live alone?

I don't think members are that interested in reading about my living arrangements, but I did discuss it some in the interview that Mission did on this site last year. I am gay and my one housemate is my best friend and partner. We lived together back in Philadelphia and when I relocated to Vegas, he initially didn't want to move but decided to follow a year latter, so we now live together again (different bedrooms, I like my own space). My second roommate is guy I met just after I moved here (vegas). A poker player. He was living out of his car, with occasional comped rooms when I met him, and I started letting him crash at my condo just off the strip and I have provided a place for him to live ever since. When I moved into my house last year, I made sure he would have a bedroom. He is just a friend...no implied other relationship.

I am saying that anyone who has ever had roommates, or known of someone who has had roommates, knows that roommates are undesirable. I am saying that it is generally preferable to live in a cheaper place than to take on a roommate.

Your explanation clears things up.

Quote: Sonuvabish

I am saying that anyone who has ever had roommates, or known of someone who has had roommates, knows that roommates are undesirable. I am saying that it is generally preferable to live in a cheaper place than to take on a roommate.

Your explanation clears things up.

I feel it depends on the neighborhood. I would much rather have a room mate in a good neighborhood rather than live by myself in a bad one.

Quote: Sonuvabish

I am saying that anyone who has ever had roommates, or known of someone who has had roommates, knows that roommates are undesirable. I am saying that it is generally preferable to live in a cheaper place than to take on a roommate.

I have never heard your view that everyone knows roommates are undesirable. lol Yes, young people starting out often have a roommate to share expenses, but there are many other situations than that. Do you know most of the US sentators have roommates in Washington DC. Like sen Schumer (NY) and sen Durbin (Ill), both married, who share an apartment in Washington. These men have both been US senators for decades and surely can afford to live alone. Many professional poker players, and I mean REAL professional poker players that make a good living share condos at Panarama on Dean Martin Drive, when they could all afford to live alone somewhere else. There are many reasons people have roommates.

Quote: kewlj

I have never heard your view that everyone knows roommates are undesirable. lol Yes, young people starting out often have a roommate to share expenses, but there are many other situations that that. Do you know most of the US sentators have roommates in Washington DC. Like sen Schumer (NY) and sen Durbin (Ill) who share an apartment in Washington. These men have both been US senators for decades and surely can afford to live alone. Many professional poker players, and I mean REAL professional poker players that make a good living share condos at Panarama on Dean Martin Drive, when they could all afford to live alone somewhere else. There are many reasons people have roommates.

Congressmen spend very little time at 'home', and their family doesn't 'live' with them. As Lemieux points out, there are obviously some exceptions. If you want to take the position that roommates are desirable, be my guest. I know I hated having roommates, the only benefit was to save on costs. I know I heard of the pitfalls of having roommates from people who never had any. I know that my grandma sold her house and moved into a condo; she could have got a roommate instead. I know that my parents don't have roommates. Maybe they all wanted roommates, failed to get them, and I'm making unwarranted assumptions, who knows. But I don't want roommates.

Quote: Sonuvabish

Congressmen spend very little time at 'home', and their family doesn't 'live' with them. As Lemieux points out, there are obviously some exceptions. If you want to take the position that roommates are desirable, be my guest. I know I hated having roommates, the only benefit was to save on costs. I know I heard of the pitfalls of having roommates from people who never had any. I know that my grandma sold her house and moved into a condo; she could have got a roommate instead. I know that my parents don't have roommates. Maybe they all wanted roommates, failed to get them, and I'm making unwarranted assumptions, who knows. But I don't want roommates.

If you don't want roommates....don't have roommates. lol. Personally, I enjoy sharing a residence with a couple close friends. But, I am not really here to debate living arrangements.

Quote: kewlj

If you don't want roommates....don't have roommates. lol. Personally, I enjoy sharing a residence with a couple close friends. But, I am not really here to debate living arrangements.

Not exactly roommates. I would enjoy sharing my residence with a lonely high school drop out with daddy issues, bleached blonde hair, and suicidal tendencies. Did I mention anorexic? God I hate bulimics.

I'm trying to think of the profile of the perfect roommate. If you get some random off Craig's list, you have a fear of this person potentially killing or robbing you. If it's a buddy, they might try to take advantage of you with rent lateness and possibly being a slob. Family can be the same way as a friend but to an extreme degree. It's tough.

Quote: Lemieux66

It's tough.

Many things in life are. In Seattle whenever my wrist watch "went missing" I blamed it on my roommates. If I came home and there was a breakfast dish in the sink, well... once again it was the fault of one of my roommates. In fact there were no roommates at all.

Now as to Blackjack Agreements, I think this 'straight or gay' stuff is nonsense. The cards don't care if the players are gay or straight when you are in the casino and when you are home tallying up the proceeds and dividing them equitably the cards still don't know or care. Since various issues are sure to arise eventually, the best thing is to have a written agreement and stick to it. A blackjack team is a business relationship, so keep it business-like at all times, whether they be friends. lovers or strangers or whatever.

Sharing quarters? Alot of gamblers have "de facto" time shares in Vegas and just deal with occasional overlaps. Many poker players just keep a basic wardrobe and toiletries kit in some Vegas pad they use solely to shower and sleep. They don't have to worry about comped rooms, the time others spend dealing with hosts, they spend winning hands and getting free drinks.

Quote: Sonuvabish

I am saying that anyone who has ever had roommates, or known of someone who has had roommates, knows that roommates are undesirable. I am saying that it is generally preferable to live in a cheaper place than to take on a roommate.

I agree with you completely (I love living alone and have done so ever since I could afford it) but I know lots of people who disagree. I know people who make several hundred thousand dollars per year and have roomates because they prefer not to live alone.

Quote: FleaStiff

Many things in life are. In Seattle whenever my wrist watch "went missing" I blamed it on my roommates. If I came home and there was a breakfast dish in the sink, well... once again it was the fault of one of my roommates. In fact there were no roommates at all.
.

Wait...you blamed things on imaginary roommates?

Probably more AP's have roommates/housemates then any other profession. So much easier to work as a team and get the work of >2 people if someone is living in the same house and knows what you are doing.

+ I wouldn't want to explain why I am mad during a downswing or a bad run on a civilian. They would just think I'm an idiot for gambling.

Quote: djatc

Probably more AP's have roommates/housemates then any other profession. So much easier to work as a team and get the work of >2 people if someone is living in the same house and knows what you are doing.

+ I wouldn't want to explain why I am mad during a downswing or a bad run on a civilian. They would just think I'm an idiot for gambling.

As far as the traditional roommate situation, excluding these obscure frat house congress scenarios, I think it is rare that any professional in any field would have a roommate, other than 'professional student.' The American Dream is to own your own home, not share a transient locale. The goal of a professional is to be successful. Your wife is not a roommate, nor are kids. So I mean...I don't know. I just asked a question. His explanation was satisfactory in quelling my curiousity, making sense to me. I don't picture him with roommates. The quasi-roommate/charity case, gets on his nerves, as would anyone remotely resembling a roommate. How did we get here? A roommate once asked me to borrow $400 in a round-about way. I didn't even know his last name. Fortunately, I am adamant about hating roommates, so I had no problem pretending he didn't ask. Which was a round-about way of saying, you have my permission to beg, and I promise I will give you an explicit no.

(First paragraph retained with BJ:Friends as Teammates discussion - BBB)

As far as the roommate thing.... As soon as I could afford not to have one, I didn't. But I can clearly understand how for some people it would be a positive. I would not call your lover a roommate in that sense. The heterosexual guy I would call a roommate. I think in the long run everything will work out for you!