Phil Ivey sued for edge sorting at Borgata!
Quote:The Borgata Hotel Casino & Spa is suing a World Series of Poker champ who it says cheated the house for $9.6 million, according to a report from New Jersey Law Journal.
The lawsuit alleges that poker pro Phillip "Phil" Ivey Jr. allegedly cheated while playing several sessions at a Baccarat table in 2012, the report said.
While playing, Ivey allegedly cheated by fixating on pattern flaws on the back of the cards, a technique commonly known as "edge sorting," according to the lawsuit.
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Maybe Borgata should focus on preventing cheating in its poker tournaments before it goes after Ivey for legal advantage play.
I don't like Borgata's chances in this one. Ivey is always very careful "anymore or period" should replace > "to not do anything illegal." < so don't make any bets you can't afford to lose on your statement.Quote: sodawaterI don't like Borgata's chances in this one. Ivey is always very careful to not do anything illegal.
Maybe Borgata should focus on preventing cheating in its poker tournaments before it goes after Ivey for legal advantage play.
Now that is brilliant cover. Play the main big-table bacc game at a low house edge, get huge variance, then on shuffle breaks go play minibacc at a tremendous advantage by convincing ignorant table games staff to edge sort for you. Then at the end of the day the variance of the big-table game covers up your steady wins at the minibacc game.
Ivey is brilliant and I hope he countersues Borgata for this ridiculous lawsuit. How can a casino claim a player was cheating when he never touched a single card?
At least Borgata paid Ivey his winnings. Between the poker tournament fiasco and this, it's been a bad year for Borgata public relations.
Can someone quote the New Jersey statute that makes edge sorting illegal?
I doubt there's a specific statute and it's open to interpretation.Quote: mickeycrimmSo Ivey made the Main Event final table 9 times, huh? No one has ever made the final table 9 times. I only recall him making it once. And another time he came damn close. But Moneymaker sucked out on him and knocked him out 10th.
Can someone quote the New Jersey statute that makes edge sorting illegal?
Quote: AxelWolfI doubt there's a specific statute and it's open to interpretation.
Well, we have some pretty good minds on WOV. Is edge sorting cheating, anyone? Isn't it the responsibility of Borgata to protect it's games, not Ivey's responsibility?
Quote: mickeycrimmWell, we have some pretty good minds on WOV. Is edge sorting cheating, anyone? Isn't it the responsibility of Borgata to protect it's games, not Ivey's responsibility?
I don't have a very good mind but I'm answering anyway. This is all on the Borgata.
Quote: mickeycrimmWell, we have some pretty good minds on WOV. Is edge sorting cheating, anyone? Isn't it the responsibility of Borgata to protect it's games, not Ivey's responsibility?
Is the Casino cheating by having games in their favor? Is it cheating if they let you know beforehand they have an advantage?
I don't think what you asked is a good question because no game we play in the casino is a fair game to begin with...
I'd say all is fair in love and going to war against the casino. This is definitely AP.
More power to him.
Quote: mickeycrimmCan someone quote the New Jersey statute that makes edge sorting illegal?
How about this one?
Quote: 5:12-113 Swindling and cheating; penalties.
113. Swindling and Cheating; Penalties.
a.A person is guilty of swindling and cheating if the person purposely or knowingly by any trick or sleight of hand performance or by a fraud or fraudulent scheme, cards, dice or device, for himself or herself or for another, wins or attempts to win money or property or a representative of either or reduces a losing wager or attempts to reduce a losing wager in connection to casino gaming.
Quote: MathExtremistHow about this one?
What about it??
Quote: MathExtremistHow about this one?
Well counting cards is a mental trick ,yet we know that is not cheating.
I don`t think Borgata has a chance.
Quote: HunterhillWell counting cards is a mental trick ,yet we know that is not cheating.
I don`t think Borgata has a chance.
Mental and physical are two different levels of acceptance to most people I would think.
And beat me to the punch ME, that's the only law that looks applicable here looking through the database. Ivey will probably have some good lawyers on his side to twist the hell out of that law though.
Merriam-Webster says:
fraud: the crime of using dishonest methods to take something valuable from another person
Is ordering the dealer to turn the cards a certain way fulfill the above definition? Meh.
Considering what Phil Ivey did with Full Tilt though, makes me sick people want him to win this lawsuit. Phil Ivey is scum.
What about Statutes of Repose and the doctrine of laches?
Quote: FleaStiffSo who is Madame Cheng that she leads poor Phil Ivey around by a nose-ring and gives orders to casino personnel as to how to orient the valuable cards?
What about Statutes of Repose and the doctrine of laches?
I didn't know that Madame Cheng was the greatest pirate the world as ever known
Quote: FleaStiffSo who is Madame Cheng that she leads poor Phil Ivey around by a nose-ring and gives orders to casino personnel as to how to orient the valuable cards?
What about Statutes of Repose and the doctrine of laches?
Bankroll rep for a consortium? Rainwoman? Arm candy? No idea.
It's the casino's job to police its own games. If they don't want their dealers to accommodate superstitious players, they should instruct them not to. Is turning 8s and 9s any different from turning dice that land on craps before returning them to the shooter? Well, we know that the former can be exploited by advantage play, but it's up to the casino to decide whether to do it or not.
Ivey never touched a card and this suit is frivolous. Ivey should countersue for defamation.
Quote: beachbumbabsNot sure I see the upside on trying to recover less than a week's take, or whatever their earnings are, when the publicity's going to be so bad.
This is a good point. Borgata is the only thing worth talking about in AC. And unfortunately, the average person forgets/is unaware of how Phil Ivey played a major role in screwing over millions of online poker players at Full Tilt, so Borgata will look like the bad guy in the press I would think.
Quote: sodawaterHere's the problem for the Borgata -- even if they could convince a jury that asking the casino's own table games staff to accommodate a superstition was somehow cheating, they still can't prove that Ivey used any extra information when betting. There's no evidence (other than inside Ivey's head) that he used his knowledge of the cards' edge patterns to change the odds of the game. He can just say he was betting on hunches, got lucky, and there's absolutely no evidence to prove otherwise.
It's the casino's job to police its own games. If they don't want their dealers to accommodate superstitious players, they should instruct them not to. Is turning 8s and 9s any different from turning dice that land on craps before returning them to the shooter? Well, we know that the former can be exploited by advantage play, but it's up to the casino to decide whether to do it or not.
Ivey never touched a card and this suit is frivolous. Ivey should countersue for defamation.
Time to move on......sodawater nailed it....
Quote: beachbumbabsBankroll rep for a consortium? Rainwoman? Arm candy? No idea.
doesn't look like arm candy...
http://www.pokernews.com/live-reporting/2012-pokerstars-com-ept-barcelona/50-000-super-high-roller/chips.39533.htm
"Missouri-based card manufacturer Gemaco Inc. is also named in the suit, which features charges of breach of contract, fraud, conversion, unjust enrichment, civil conspiracy and racketeering."
http://calvinayre.com/2014/04/11/casino/borgata-accuses-phil-ivey-edge-sorting-at-baccarat-tables/
Why is this a thing?
Quote: tringlomaneMental and physical are two different levels of acceptance to most people I would think.
And beat me to the punch ME, that's the only law that looks applicable here looking through the database. Ivey will probably have some good lawyers on his side to twist the hell out of that law though.
Merriam-Webster says:
fraud: the crime of using dishonest methods to take something valuable from another person
Is ordering the dealer to turn the cards a certain way fulfill the above definition? Meh.
Considering what Phil Ivey did with Full Tilt though, makes me sick people want him to win this lawsuit. Phil Ivey is scum.
It`s not that I want Ivey to win it`s that I don`t want the casino to win. I f they win this then what about shuffle tracking and then cutting the high cards to the front of the shoe? Now that is mental and physical.
Quote: tringlomaneThis is a good point. Borgata is the only thing worth talking about in AC. And unfortunately, the average person forgets/is unaware of how Phil Ivey played a major role in screwing over millions of online poker players at Full Tilt, so Borgata will look like the bad guy in the press I would think.
Ivey didn't screw anyone over at FTP. In fact, he didn't play the WSOP that year out of solidarity with the unpaid players. FTP was horribly mismanaged but I don't think Ivey ran any day-to-day operations over there before black friday.
Quote: zippyboyForgive me, I'm just a poker player who doesn't play bacc, but I'm confused. The money goes down before the cards are dealt, then there's no more decisions to be made by the player until the hand is over, right? It's not like Ivey sees a pattern on the back of the card in the shoe and decides to take it or decline it like in blackjack, right? Am I missing something?
Why is this a thing?
Some cards have patterns on the edges that differ slightly depending on the way they are oriented. If the dealer turns all the 8s and 9s one way and leaves the rest of the cards the other way, the next time those cards are shuffled, you will be able to tell whether the first card in the shoe is an 8 or a 9.
If you see the first card in the shoe is an 8 or 9, you'd have a massive advantage by betting player. If it isn't an 8 or 9, you gain an advantage by betting banker. (The first card of the hand goes to the player. "Player" is just a name of a hand in bacc, as you can bet on either of the two hands.)
In minibacc, cards are re-used. In big table bacc, they are not.
Quote: teliot"The Borgata suit claims that Ivey insisted on bringing his own deck of cards because he was superstitious. "
"Missouri-based card manufacturer Gemaco Inc. is also named in the suit, which features charges of breach of contract, fraud, conversion, unjust enrichment, civil conspiracy and racketeering."
http://calvinayre.com/2014/04/11/casino/borgata-accuses-phil-ivey-edge-sorting-at-baccarat-tables/
I would think that would be against the gaming commission rules.You would think the casino must provide the equipment/cards.
Quote: sodawaterIvey didn't screw anyone over at FTP. In fact, he didn't play the WSOP that year out of solidarity with the unpaid players. FTP was horribly mismanaged but I don't think Ivey ran any day-to-day operations over there before black friday.
So borrowing money from FTP that you don't timely pay back doesn't screw others over? This article linked below says Ivey owed FTP $4M. Thank God I had 99% of my money in PokerStars, and they were generous enough to bail FTP out for no real good reason other than to use the software I guess. I stick by my "scum" statement.
http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-news/12741-poker-pros-ivey-lindgren-benyamine-and-flack-owe-full-tilt-millions
Quote: tringlomaneSo borrowing money from FTP that you don't timely pay back doesn't screw others over? This article linked below says Ivey owed FTP $4M. Thank God I had 99% of my money in PokerStars, and they were generous enough to bail FTP out for no real good reason other than to use the software I guess. I stick by my "scum" statement.
http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-news/12741-poker-pros-ivey-lindgren-benyamine-and-flack-owe-full-tilt-millions
If part of Ivey's agreement to represent FTP included the site fronting his buy-ins, that's on FTP, not Ivey. I don't think FTP anticipated its cash cow would come to a halt suddenly or they would have been more proactive about collecting.
You think that's the real reason he didn't play the WSOP that year? I'm sorry but I have to laugh at that. He was probably in fear for his life and he was to busy edge sorting anyways. It was a pure PR move. He absolutely did not do it our of solidarity. His plan worked I see, he pulled the wool over your eyes.Quote: sodawaterIvey didn't screw anyone over at FTP. In fact, he didn't play the WSOP that year out of solidarity with the unpaid players. FTP was horribly mismanaged but I don't think Ivey ran any day-to-day operations over there before black friday.
Quote: AxelWolfYou think that's the real reason he didn't play the WSOP that year? I'm sorry but I have to laugh at that. He was probably in fear for his life and he was to busy edge sorting anyways. It was a pure PR move. He absolutely did not do it our of solidarity. His plan worked I see, he pulled the wool over your eyes.
I had no skin in the game since I never played online poker. But it seemed to me like a nice gesture at the time.
Quote: HunterhillI would think that would be against the gaming commission rules.You would think the casino must provide the equipment/cards.
I just read the complaint, Iit says he requested specific cards but not that he used or brought his own cards.
By the way, requesting a specific brand of cards is not unprecedented at Borgata. The high-limit poker players requested Kem cards when the Borgata made the switch to the lesser quality Gemaco cards in the main room. They accommodated the high-limit players because they pay more for their seat rentals than the players in the main room.
LOL.....Did anyone really think he brought his own cards? Seriously really think about that. then picture that scenario in your head.Quote: HunterhillI just read the complaint, Iit says he requested specific cards but not that he used or brought his own cards.
Quote: WizardI'm on Ivey's side 100%. It would set an awful precedent if casinos could successfully sue winnings players just for outsmarting them at their own rules.
I'm not. I am on his side about 90% right now.
The casino agreeing to his terms and now bitching about it, is just stupid. Not a leg to stand on IMO.
Edge sorting in itself, while not something I would be comfortable with, I don't see how it is illegal. It is the Casino's responsibility. If they have a vender providing faulty materials, they need to take it up with them. From a legal standpoint, I would think....not a leg to stand on.
But there is one little area, that as I read it, I think could be a problem. That is where the dealer turned certain cards in a certain manner so that when they went into the machine, that 'readable' edge would be exposed, but turned other cards in a different manner, so that edge would not be the edge that was exposed. If this is true, this implies collusion between Ivey and the dealer. This could be a problem. I will leave it to any legal experts to figure it out though.
