Face
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February 20th, 2014 at 5:48:04 AM permalink
Quote: 1BB


I, for one, am happy to see her go, no matter the reason. I think all the nonsense has cheapened this site and made it look foolish.



Quote: RonC

She was cute. She cheated our host. She is gone.

Who really cares?



Quote: Sabretom2

Enough.



Agree. Agree. Agree.

I think "embarrassing" is the best word I can use to describe what I feel and have been feeling, with maybe a touch of wonder at how women have not yet taken over the world. As JJ has shown, it really is that easy.

As I have so often lamented, we live in a world where Beiber's arrest is front page news the world over, while the Ukraine burns and isn't found until page nine, at best. Here, a random bird inspires tens of thousands of words of interest, while the Wiz compares the future of this site to the most atrocious and horrendous event in human history, one which made the Holocaust look like a bad weekend, and not a single person noticed.

Today's a new day. Make it better than the last.
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Wizard
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February 20th, 2014 at 8:45:56 AM permalink
Quote: petroglyph

Face, can you help me with that phrase? I don't read all the threads or comments and they are vast so are you referring to Mao's eliminating the 60 million or what are you referencing that no one noticed? Are you referring to Stalin's 20-40 million?



Great Leap Forward Wikipedia entry.
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petroglyph
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February 20th, 2014 at 9:07:24 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Great Leap Forward Wikipedia entry.



Thanks for the link. I jumped over so much of the JJ saga I was afraid I missed something like this that was actually interesting.
Face
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February 20th, 2014 at 9:11:41 AM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Respectfully submitted,...



Hope that's not on my account. 1) you needn't qualify a post, as you're always respectful, and 2) I expect no different treatment just cuz my name's a funny color. In fact, I'd be bothered by it.

Quote: MathExtremist

the typical participant on an Internet forum devoted primarily to gambling is unlikely to want to discuss, or even think about, genocide. Still, I doubt very much that the Wizard intended the phrase to be used in precisely the same manner that Mao did.



This is true, which made it even more shocking to me that it didn't garner any attention.

Ah well. On with the show.
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beachbumbabs
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February 20th, 2014 at 9:24:01 AM permalink
Face,

You uncovered a gap in my history knowledge; I had not heard that phrase before, but I was aware of the genocide of that period. Thanks for providing the link, Wizard.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Face
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February 20th, 2014 at 9:58:52 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Face,

You uncovered a gap in my history knowledge; I had not heard that phrase before, but I was aware of the genocide of that period. Thanks for providing the link, Wizard.



The Great Leap Forward? Wiz posted it, not me. I was just referring to his post.

Fun fact - I had never even heard of the GLF nor was aware of it until a Pacomartin post here at WoV ;)
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EvenBob
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February 20th, 2014 at 11:49:57 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Face,

You uncovered a gap in my history knowledge; I had not heard that phrase before, but I was aware of the genocide of that period.



You remember Mao, Hanoi Jane's personal hero.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Buzzard
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February 20th, 2014 at 5:06:43 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

You remember Mao, Hanoi Jane's personal hero.



Never viewed Babarella the same afterwards, even if her mother did commit suicide in a mental hospital when Jane was 12.
Her old man, Henry Fonda, married a 21 year old within months. Here Jane, say Hi to your new mommy !
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
zippyboy
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February 20th, 2014 at 5:45:19 PM permalink
Quote: Face

The Great Leap Forward?

Fun fact - I had never even heard of the GLF nor was aware of it until a Pacomartin post here at WoV ;)


I remember that about 3 years ago too. Because of that post, I researched the GLF myself and read a book on it. Fascinating, but morbid stuff. Paco is one of our most informed and respected members here I think. How is he not a moderator by now?
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onenickelmiracle
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February 20th, 2014 at 6:47:09 PM permalink
Great leap forward is too generic for anyone to make a big deal about. Who would know and once you do, it doesn't make sense to let a guy from China control you decades later. I'm more likely to associate the phrase with walking on the moon anyways.
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Mosca
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February 20th, 2014 at 6:52:54 PM permalink
My sister was married to a Chinese national whose parents were both imprisoned and forced into farm labor during The Great Leap Forward. They escaped, and the family made it to the US and gained political asylum.

In the '80s Barb was invited to China for work; Richard (his American name) was terrified to go because he was afraid he would be recognized and sent to a labor farm. He says they have long memories over there.
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teddys
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February 20th, 2014 at 7:16:04 PM permalink
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
rxwine
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February 20th, 2014 at 7:29:33 PM permalink
Quote: Face

to the most atrocious and horrendous event in human history, one which made the Holocaust look like a bad weekend, and not a single person noticed..



Might have to take into account populations of China, Germany, Russia. Killing within the border is likely easy than outside. Different agendas and different size targets, and ability for people to know or hide in advance, etc., Probably other variables as well.
There's no secret. Just know what you're talking about before you open your mouth.
Buzzard
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February 20th, 2014 at 8:29:08 PM permalink
I don't pay a hell of a lot of attention to past genocides. Have enough trouble digesting current ones.

http://amanpour.blogs.cnn.com/2014/02/18/malala-tells-cnn-world-risks-losing-generation-of-syrian-children/
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
bbbbcccc
bbbbcccc
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February 20th, 2014 at 9:02:50 PM permalink
A genocide is the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group. The Great Leap Forward was monstrously stupid policy, not a determined and systemic effort to destroy certain subgroups of the population.

The Great Leap Forward does not qualify as a genocide.
Buzzard
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February 20th, 2014 at 9:08:55 PM permalink
The dead thank you for that clarification.
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
onenickelmiracle
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February 20th, 2014 at 9:18:39 PM permalink
Quote: Buzzard

The dead thank you for that clarification.

Can we invent a term for genocide by accident or made to look like an accident on urbandictionary?

Oopsiecide?
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bbbbcccc
bbbbcccc
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February 20th, 2014 at 9:22:38 PM permalink
Given that genocide requires specific intent, accidental genocide is an oxymoron.
onenickelmiracle
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February 20th, 2014 at 9:28:10 PM permalink
Quote: bbbbcccc

Given that genocide requires specific intent, accidental genocide is an oxymoron.

manslaughterocide?
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EvenBob
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February 20th, 2014 at 9:29:36 PM permalink
Stalin and Pol Pot and Hitler were the genocide
guys. Mao was just a piss poor leader.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
bbbbcccc
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February 20th, 2014 at 9:30:57 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Stalin and Pol Pot and Hitler were the genocide
guys. Mao was just a piss poor leader.



The sad thing is that those three were only a few of the "genocide guys." Genocide has become distressingly common.
EvenBob
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February 20th, 2014 at 9:42:49 PM permalink
The Chinese will rule the world some day, it's
inevitable. The world will be better for it, probably.
The Chinese have a long view of the future,
we have a view that lasts to the next election.
We'll eventually all work together, but the
Chinese will be in charge. High IQ's and
an ironclad work ethic always wins in the
end. We're turning into a worthless welfare
state of lazy fat slobs who live with their
parents till their 35. The newest stat is almost
1/3 of people under 35 still live with mom and
dad.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Doc
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February 20th, 2014 at 10:07:35 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

...The newest stat is almost
1/3 of people under 35 still live with mom and
dad.


I rather expect that 1/3 of people under 35 are under 12 ( or so). It seems reasonable for them to still be living with mom and dad.
EvenBob
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February 20th, 2014 at 10:17:14 PM permalink
Quote: Doc

I rather expect that 1/3 of people under 35 are under 12 ( or so). It seems reasonable for them to still be living with mom and dad.



It's the ones over 21 that in that demo that
are the concern.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
zippyboy
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February 21st, 2014 at 5:57:09 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

The Chinese will rule the world some day, it's
inevitable....We'll eventually all work together, but the
Chinese will be in charge. High IQ's and
an ironclad work ethic always wins in the
end. We're turning into a worthless welfare
state of lazy fat slobs who live with their
parents till their 35.


We weren't always like that though. The Chinese will prolly be themselves in 70 years.
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pacomartin
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February 21st, 2014 at 11:10:30 AM permalink
Quote: bbbbcccc

A genocide is the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group. The Great Leap Forward was monstrously stupid policy, not a determined and systemic effort to destroy certain subgroups of the population.

The Great Leap Forward does not qualify as a genocide.



Rudolph Joseph Rummel (born October 21, 1932, Cleveland, Ohio) is professor emeritus of political science at the University of Hawaii. He has spent his career assembling data on collective violence and war with a view toward helping their resolution or elimination. Rummel coined the term democide for murder by government , and his research claims that six times as many people died of democide during the 20th century than in all that century's wars combined.

odiousgambit
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February 21st, 2014 at 11:44:50 AM permalink
wow, things got a bit better in 1987? what happened in 1987?
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!”   She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
bbbbcccc
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February 21st, 2014 at 11:47:39 AM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

wow, things got a bit better in 1987? what happened in 1987?



Selective counting, and discounting of actual numbers.
bbbbcccc
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February 21st, 2014 at 11:53:03 AM permalink
There are a lot of things not on that list that should be. In addition, there are a lot of questionable things on that list. 20 mil attributed to Nazi Germany? By whose count? And if you are going to count Genocide, where are the rest? No Guatemala, East Timor, Rwanda, etc.?

Also, North Korea is widely believed to have become MORE brutal since 1987. Their catastrophic famine wasn't until the '90's, yet for some reason those numbers don't count?
FleaStiff
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February 21st, 2014 at 12:56:56 PM permalink
Can't quite figure out whats going on here from this first post.

JJ is probably a reference to the broad who was a model or "model" depending upon your definitions.

Mao? HIs Long Rout was turned into a Long March by propaganda. Many that he killed were by starvation and ineptitude.

But what pray tell is this automatic horror that you expect of us when the word "genocide" is used?

Each day we shower or bathe we virtually eliminate entire populations of bacteria. We define them as bad and ourselves as good.

We spray insecticide in a room to kill cockroaches because we are good and they are bad, dirty, disease carrying etc. If cockroaches could type their newspapers would be full of words like genocide and discrimination. Think back to when being a discriminating man was a complement, don't go with the flow and think in terms of propaganda.

Stalin killed millions ... but that didn't stop a seedbank team during WW Two from resolving to join those who were dying of cold and malnutrition rather than dip into even one seed packet because the seed bank was for a noble purpose of feeding later generations of humanity.

And many Germans were proud that trains carrying Jews had right of way while ammunition trains and troop trains were sidelined because the war was a Nationalistic goal but the extermination of Jews was a program of international humanitarianism equivalent to eliminating small pox, polio or the HIV virus. Don't try to impose YOUR definitions. In a town with an orphanage children used to arrive by bus then later by rail road cars. After the arrival, the chimney would issue smoke, even on warm days. You think the entire village was unnoticeable.

China invaded Tibet because China needed to build THEIR Cape Canaveral and Vandenberg rocket bases. Forced reloctions, forced marriages, forced name and language changes and a program of eradication of the Dali Lama' support base is simply the result. Its no big deal.

The USA exterminated dozens of species often for no other reason than fashion trends in the UK and Europe, we supported Piracy on the High Seas by supplying pirate vessels in the Indian Ocean and dealing directly with pirates in the American south.
tringlomane
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February 21st, 2014 at 1:40:02 PM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

wow, things got a bit better in 1987? what happened in 1987?



He made tenure. :D
bbbbcccc
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February 21st, 2014 at 2:01:49 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

He made tenure. :D



Well played
Face
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February 21st, 2014 at 2:26:22 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

He made tenure. :D



Michael Jackson released the "BAD" album. Everyone was in the discotheque. Hard to murder and moonwalk simultaneously ;)
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FleaStiff
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February 21st, 2014 at 3:42:27 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Stalin and Pol Pot and Hitler were the genocide guys. Mao was just a piss poor leader.

They all start out killing specific groups. Stalin killed the elderly, the military officers. PolPot killed mainly urban dwellers. Great Leap Forward policies killed unnecessary college graduates and covered up all the famine deaths to maintain the "iron ricebowl" image.
pacomartin
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February 22nd, 2014 at 2:31:56 AM permalink
Quote: odiousgambit

wow, things got a bit better in 1987? what happened in 1987?



I suspect 1987 is artificially highlighted as that is when his initial report was completed. You would really have to look at the detailed table.

Dicenor33
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February 22nd, 2014 at 5:10:29 AM permalink
Chinese language has never gained popularity. The pronounceution is difficult, and writing is almost impossible. English is a versatile and can be learned relatively fast, plus American democracy offers better individual rights. China has a long way to go to become world's leader as far as popularity is concerned.
Dicenor33
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February 22nd, 2014 at 5:21:21 AM permalink
European genocide took place during the scientific break through. Who will own a nuclear bomb has been on a mind of every politician. Hitler and Stalin were just a bunch of poppets. It's been a big gamble. But it paid off, as America came out as a huge winner and guaranteed it's place in history for years to come.
FleaStiff
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February 22nd, 2014 at 6:36:17 AM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

Rudolph Joseph Rummel (born October 21, 1932, Cleveland, Ohio) is professor emeritus of political science at the University of Hawaii. He has spent his career assembling data on collective violence and war with a view toward helping their resolution or elimination. Rummel coined the term democide for murder by government , and his research claims that six times as many people died of democide during the 20th century than in all that century's wars combined.

How do you determine numbers of deaths in far off warlord controlled areas without reliable census or tax rolls? If Israel attacks the World Trade Center using Islamic patsies in order to get US troops and the US economy entangled in a senseless, endless campaign to make the Middle East safer for Israel are the resultant dead and wounded attributed to Israel or to the US?
teddys
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February 22nd, 2014 at 7:09:04 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

Quote: pacomartin

Rudolph Joseph Rummel (born October 21, 1932, Cleveland, Ohio) is professor emeritus of political science at the University of Hawaii. He has spent his career assembling data on collective violence and war with a view toward helping their resolution or elimination. Rummel coined the term democide for murder by government , and his research claims that six times as many people died of democide during the 20th century than in all that century's wars combined.

How do you determine numbers of deaths in far off warlord controlled areas without reliable census or tax rolls? If Israel attacks the World Trade Center using Islamic patsies in order to get US troops and the US economy entangled in a senseless, endless campaign to make the Middle East safer for Israel are the resultant dead and wounded attributed to Israel or to the US?

JEWS DID 9/11
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
AcesAndEights
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February 23rd, 2014 at 3:32:30 PM permalink
Quote: teddys

Quote: FleaStiff

Quote: pacomartin

Rudolph Joseph Rummel (born October 21, 1932, Cleveland, Ohio) is professor emeritus of political science at the University of Hawaii. He has spent his career assembling data on collective violence and war with a view toward helping their resolution or elimination. Rummel coined the term democide for murder by government , and his research claims that six times as many people died of democide during the 20th century than in all that century's wars combined.

How do you determine numbers of deaths in far off warlord controlled areas without reliable census or tax rolls? If Israel attacks the World Trade Center using Islamic patsies in order to get US troops and the US economy entangled in a senseless, endless campaign to make the Middle East safer for Israel are the resultant dead and wounded attributed to Israel or to the US?

JEWS DID 9/11


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tringlomane
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February 23rd, 2014 at 3:39:07 PM permalink
^^^^ Excellent response, imo.
pacomartin
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February 23rd, 2014 at 5:30:31 PM permalink
Quote: tringlomane

^^^^ Excellent response, imo.



I don't know who you are complimenting.

Based on research that concluded in 1987, the term "democide" became popular to describe mass deaths like those that occurred under the "three bitter years" as a result of Mao's great leap forward.

The increase in death rate in urban areas was about half the increase in rural areas. Fuyang, a region in Anhui with a population of 8 million in 1958, had a death rate that rivaled Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge; more than 2.4 million people perished there over three years.

The "three bitter years" certainly surpassed by more than a dozen times the death toll of Western Europe in WWII.

The term "genocide" coined in 1944 does not seem appropriate. But the term "natural disaster" is also considered a cop out.
JimRockford
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November 13th, 2015 at 7:39:33 PM permalink
Bill Walton just described the Texas Washington NCAA game being played in China as the next "Great Leap Forward". Twice
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