Mao's Great Leap Forward
Quote: 1BB
I, for one, am happy to see her go, no matter the reason. I think all the nonsense has cheapened this site and made it look foolish.
Quote: RonCShe was cute. She cheated our host. She is gone.
Who really cares?
Quote: Sabretom2Enough.
Agree. Agree. Agree.
I think "embarrassing" is the best word I can use to describe what I feel and have been feeling, with maybe a touch of wonder at how women have not yet taken over the world. As JJ has shown, it really is that easy.
As I have so often lamented, we live in a world where Beiber's arrest is front page news the world over, while the Ukraine burns and isn't found until page nine, at best. Here, a random bird inspires tens of thousands of words of interest, while the Wiz compares the future of this site to the most atrocious and horrendous event in human history, one which made the Holocaust look like a bad weekend, and not a single person noticed.
Today's a new day. Make it better than the last.
Quote: petroglyphFace, can you help me with that phrase? I don't read all the threads or comments and they are vast so are you referring to Mao's eliminating the 60 million or what are you referencing that no one noticed? Are you referring to Stalin's 20-40 million?
Great Leap Forward Wikipedia entry.
Quote: WizardGreat Leap Forward Wikipedia entry.
Thanks for the link. I jumped over so much of the JJ saga I was afraid I missed something like this that was actually interesting.
Quote: MathExtremistRespectfully submitted,...
Hope that's not on my account. 1) you needn't qualify a post, as you're always respectful, and 2) I expect no different treatment just cuz my name's a funny color. In fact, I'd be bothered by it.
Quote: MathExtremistthe typical participant on an Internet forum devoted primarily to gambling is unlikely to want to discuss, or even think about, genocide. Still, I doubt very much that the Wizard intended the phrase to be used in precisely the same manner that Mao did.
This is true, which made it even more shocking to me that it didn't garner any attention.
Ah well. On with the show.
You uncovered a gap in my history knowledge; I had not heard that phrase before, but I was aware of the genocide of that period. Thanks for providing the link, Wizard.
Quote: beachbumbabsFace,
You uncovered a gap in my history knowledge; I had not heard that phrase before, but I was aware of the genocide of that period. Thanks for providing the link, Wizard.
The Great Leap Forward? Wiz posted it, not me. I was just referring to his post.
Fun fact - I had never even heard of the GLF nor was aware of it until a Pacomartin post here at WoV ;)
Quote: beachbumbabsFace,
You uncovered a gap in my history knowledge; I had not heard that phrase before, but I was aware of the genocide of that period.
You remember Mao, Hanoi Jane's personal hero.
Quote: EvenBobYou remember Mao, Hanoi Jane's personal hero.
Never viewed Babarella the same afterwards, even if her mother did commit suicide in a mental hospital when Jane was 12.
Her old man, Henry Fonda, married a 21 year old within months. Here Jane, say Hi to your new mommy !
Quote: FaceThe Great Leap Forward?
Fun fact - I had never even heard of the GLF nor was aware of it until a Pacomartin post here at WoV ;)
I remember that about 3 years ago too. Because of that post, I researched the GLF myself and read a book on it. Fascinating, but morbid stuff. Paco is one of our most informed and respected members here I think. How is he not a moderator by now?
In the '80s Barb was invited to China for work; Richard (his American name) was terrified to go because he was afraid he would be recognized and sent to a labor farm. He says they have long memories over there.
Quote: Faceto the most atrocious and horrendous event in human history, one which made the Holocaust look like a bad weekend, and not a single person noticed..
Might have to take into account populations of China, Germany, Russia. Killing within the border is likely easy than outside. Different agendas and different size targets, and ability for people to know or hide in advance, etc., Probably other variables as well.
http://amanpour.blogs.cnn.com/2014/02/18/malala-tells-cnn-world-risks-losing-generation-of-syrian-children/
The Great Leap Forward does not qualify as a genocide.
Can we invent a term for genocide by accident or made to look like an accident on urbandictionary?Quote: BuzzardThe dead thank you for that clarification.
Oopsiecide?
manslaughterocide?Quote: bbbbccccGiven that genocide requires specific intent, accidental genocide is an oxymoron.
guys. Mao was just a piss poor leader.
Quote: EvenBobStalin and Pol Pot and Hitler were the genocide
guys. Mao was just a piss poor leader.
The sad thing is that those three were only a few of the "genocide guys." Genocide has become distressingly common.
inevitable. The world will be better for it, probably.
The Chinese have a long view of the future,
we have a view that lasts to the next election.
We'll eventually all work together, but the
Chinese will be in charge. High IQ's and
an ironclad work ethic always wins in the
end. We're turning into a worthless welfare
state of lazy fat slobs who live with their
parents till their 35. The newest stat is almost
1/3 of people under 35 still live with mom and
dad.
Quote: EvenBob...The newest stat is almost
1/3 of people under 35 still live with mom and
dad.
I rather expect that 1/3 of people under 35 are under 12 ( or so). It seems reasonable for them to still be living with mom and dad.
Quote: DocI rather expect that 1/3 of people under 35 are under 12 ( or so). It seems reasonable for them to still be living with mom and dad.
It's the ones over 21 that in that demo that
are the concern.
Quote: EvenBobThe Chinese will rule the world some day, it's
inevitable....We'll eventually all work together, but the
Chinese will be in charge. High IQ's and
an ironclad work ethic always wins in the
end. We're turning into a worthless welfare
state of lazy fat slobs who live with their
parents till their 35.
We weren't always like that though. The Chinese will prolly be themselves in 70 years.
Quote: bbbbccccA genocide is the intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group. The Great Leap Forward was monstrously stupid policy, not a determined and systemic effort to destroy certain subgroups of the population.
The Great Leap Forward does not qualify as a genocide.
Rudolph Joseph Rummel (born October 21, 1932, Cleveland, Ohio) is professor emeritus of political science at the University of Hawaii. He has spent his career assembling data on collective violence and war with a view toward helping their resolution or elimination. Rummel coined the term democide for murder by government , and his research claims that six times as many people died of democide during the 20th century than in all that century's wars combined.
Quote: odiousgambitwow, things got a bit better in 1987? what happened in 1987?
Selective counting, and discounting of actual numbers.
Also, North Korea is widely believed to have become MORE brutal since 1987. Their catastrophic famine wasn't until the '90's, yet for some reason those numbers don't count?
JJ is probably a reference to the broad who was a model or "model" depending upon your definitions.
Mao? HIs Long Rout was turned into a Long March by propaganda. Many that he killed were by starvation and ineptitude.
But what pray tell is this automatic horror that you expect of us when the word "genocide" is used?
Each day we shower or bathe we virtually eliminate entire populations of bacteria. We define them as bad and ourselves as good.
We spray insecticide in a room to kill cockroaches because we are good and they are bad, dirty, disease carrying etc. If cockroaches could type their newspapers would be full of words like genocide and discrimination. Think back to when being a discriminating man was a complement, don't go with the flow and think in terms of propaganda.
Stalin killed millions ... but that didn't stop a seedbank team during WW Two from resolving to join those who were dying of cold and malnutrition rather than dip into even one seed packet because the seed bank was for a noble purpose of feeding later generations of humanity.
And many Germans were proud that trains carrying Jews had right of way while ammunition trains and troop trains were sidelined because the war was a Nationalistic goal but the extermination of Jews was a program of international humanitarianism equivalent to eliminating small pox, polio or the HIV virus. Don't try to impose YOUR definitions. In a town with an orphanage children used to arrive by bus then later by rail road cars. After the arrival, the chimney would issue smoke, even on warm days. You think the entire village was unnoticeable.
China invaded Tibet because China needed to build THEIR Cape Canaveral and Vandenberg rocket bases. Forced reloctions, forced marriages, forced name and language changes and a program of eradication of the Dali Lama' support base is simply the result. Its no big deal.
The USA exterminated dozens of species often for no other reason than fashion trends in the UK and Europe, we supported Piracy on the High Seas by supplying pirate vessels in the Indian Ocean and dealing directly with pirates in the American south.
Quote: odiousgambitwow, things got a bit better in 1987? what happened in 1987?
He made tenure. :D
Quote: tringlomaneHe made tenure. :D
Well played
Quote: tringlomaneHe made tenure. :D
Michael Jackson released the "BAD" album. Everyone was in the discotheque. Hard to murder and moonwalk simultaneously ;)
They all start out killing specific groups. Stalin killed the elderly, the military officers. PolPot killed mainly urban dwellers. Great Leap Forward policies killed unnecessary college graduates and covered up all the famine deaths to maintain the "iron ricebowl" image.Quote: EvenBobStalin and Pol Pot and Hitler were the genocide guys. Mao was just a piss poor leader.
Quote: odiousgambitwow, things got a bit better in 1987? what happened in 1987?
I suspect 1987 is artificially highlighted as that is when his initial report was completed. You would really have to look at the detailed table.
How do you determine numbers of deaths in far off warlord controlled areas without reliable census or tax rolls? If Israel attacks the World Trade Center using Islamic patsies in order to get US troops and the US economy entangled in a senseless, endless campaign to make the Middle East safer for Israel are the resultant dead and wounded attributed to Israel or to the US?Quote: pacomartinRudolph Joseph Rummel (born October 21, 1932, Cleveland, Ohio) is professor emeritus of political science at the University of Hawaii. He has spent his career assembling data on collective violence and war with a view toward helping their resolution or elimination. Rummel coined the term democide for murder by government , and his research claims that six times as many people died of democide during the 20th century than in all that century's wars combined.
JEWS DID 9/11Quote: FleaStiffHow do you determine numbers of deaths in far off warlord controlled areas without reliable census or tax rolls? If Israel attacks the World Trade Center using Islamic patsies in order to get US troops and the US economy entangled in a senseless, endless campaign to make the Middle East safer for Israel are the resultant dead and wounded attributed to Israel or to the US?Quote: pacomartinRudolph Joseph Rummel (born October 21, 1932, Cleveland, Ohio) is professor emeritus of political science at the University of Hawaii. He has spent his career assembling data on collective violence and war with a view toward helping their resolution or elimination. Rummel coined the term democide for murder by government , and his research claims that six times as many people died of democide during the 20th century than in all that century's wars combined.
Quote: teddysJEWS DID 9/11Quote: FleaStiffHow do you determine numbers of deaths in far off warlord controlled areas without reliable census or tax rolls? If Israel attacks the World Trade Center using Islamic patsies in order to get US troops and the US economy entangled in a senseless, endless campaign to make the Middle East safer for Israel are the resultant dead and wounded attributed to Israel or to the US?Quote: pacomartinRudolph Joseph Rummel (born October 21, 1932, Cleveland, Ohio) is professor emeritus of political science at the University of Hawaii. He has spent his career assembling data on collective violence and war with a view toward helping their resolution or elimination. Rummel coined the term democide for murder by government , and his research claims that six times as many people died of democide during the 20th century than in all that century's wars combined.
Quote: tringlomane^^^^ Excellent response, imo.
I don't know who you are complimenting.
Based on research that concluded in 1987, the term "democide" became popular to describe mass deaths like those that occurred under the "three bitter years" as a result of Mao's great leap forward.
The increase in death rate in urban areas was about half the increase in rural areas. Fuyang, a region in Anhui with a population of 8 million in 1958, had a death rate that rivaled Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge; more than 2.4 million people perished there over three years.
The "three bitter years" certainly surpassed by more than a dozen times the death toll of Western Europe in WWII.
The term "genocide" coined in 1944 does not seem appropriate. But the term "natural disaster" is also considered a cop out.
