AcesAndEights
AcesAndEights
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November 8th, 2013 at 11:04:51 AM permalink
Quote: Tomspur

Green Valley Ranch - Love the rooms and the courtyard/pool. Very nice property. Station casinos welcome counters btw. No heat as far as I can tell?


That's funny, I've heard the exact opposite, that they are one of the sweatiest chains in Vegas. Do you possibly happen to work for a Stations property?

Quote: Tomspr

To say casinos have been a large part of my life, both playing and working would be the understatement of the century.


Do you mind disclosing what your occupation is? Just curious, it helps understand the context of one's posts to know where one is coming from. Of course if you'd rather not say, that is fine too :)
"So drink gamble eat f***, because one day you will be dust." -ontariodealer
Tomspur
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November 10th, 2013 at 10:23:48 PM permalink
Quote: AcesAndEights

Quote: Tomspur

Green Valley Ranch - Love the rooms and the courtyard/pool. Very nice property. Station casinos welcome counters btw. No heat as far as I can tell?


That's funny, I've heard the exact opposite, that they are one of the sweatiest chains in Vegas. Do you possibly happen to work for a Stations property?


Do you mind disclosing what your occupation is? Just curious, it helps understand the context of one's posts to know where one is coming from. Of course if you'd rather not say, that is fine too :)



I have not now, nor any other time in the past worked for Station Casinos or any of their affiliates :). I have however counted down DD and 6 deck games at 3 of their properties and never gotten any heat off them. I don't gamble much, I don't do it for a living, I do it for research purposes and mostly because I enjoy having a little gamble every now and then. The properties I have been at (and counted down) has been GVR, Sunset and Red Rock.

My profession? I have been in the casino industry, mostly as a Casino Manager for about 18 years. I'm currently a Director of Surveillance. I have no affiliations with any casino in LV. My experience is mainly from international casinos such as in Europe, Africa and Asia. I do have a few years in LV casinos however.

I don't have anything to hide. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only casino professional on here. I know the dude from Fiesta is around (sorry I forget his name now, very rude I know :) ). There was also the marketing VP but he didn't seem to last too long.
Hope that answers your questions.
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
EvenBob
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November 10th, 2013 at 11:41:22 PM permalink
Quote: Tomspur



I don't have anything to hide. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only casino professional on here.
.



We have at least half a dozen who are currently suits
at casinos or have graduated to other jobs in the industry.
Face had your job until recently, not he's hunting bad
guys in the same casino.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Tomspur
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November 11th, 2013 at 12:19:07 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

We have at least half a dozen who are currently suits
at casinos or have graduated to other jobs in the industry.
Face had your job until recently, not he's hunting bad
guys in the same casino.



Sometimes I find it quite amuzing to read how people want to keep the industry and AP's or even just casino enthusiasts separate. I don't share that opinion. I feel that, if your casino does its job properly, has its rules set up correctly and gives superior service to all, you don't have to worry about AP's picking you dry. There are far too many casino bosses worrying about card counters where the real damage is being done by bad dealers on UTH and 3CP (amongst others).

I embrace my AP side and my casino side. I feel I can be of service to both sides without blurring the lines.......for now. May be a different story if I'm in a higher position on the strip and my job depends on my silence on forums......but as of now, I don't have that problem :)
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
EvenBob
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November 11th, 2013 at 8:28:07 AM permalink
Quote: Tomspur

Sometimes I find it quite amuzing to read how people want to keep the industry and AP's )



I should have clarified. Face hunts employees who are ripping
off the casino, not AP's.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Tomspur
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November 11th, 2013 at 1:59:34 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

I should have clarified. Face hunts employees who are ripping
off the casino, not AP's.



Well we watch the entire property as I'm sure Face did too (when he was still in Surveillance per se). Investigations is a little different but still falls under the same sphere.
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
Buzzard
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November 11th, 2013 at 2:12:36 PM permalink
Personnel in either surveillance or investigations are eligible to be nominated for the Barney Fife Trophy !
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
1BB
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November 11th, 2013 at 3:01:59 PM permalink
Quote: Tomspur

Well we watch the entire property as I'm sure Face did too (when he was still in Surveillance per se). Investigations is a little different but still falls under the same sphere.



How does your casino handle a person who finds a chip on the floor or credits in a machine?
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
Tomspur
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November 11th, 2013 at 5:20:43 PM permalink
Quote: 1BB

How does your casino handle a person who finds a chip on the floor or credits in a machine?



Very tough question to answer. The law is just a little ambiguous when it comes to "found money" and moreover what it deems to be "abandoned money".

It would have to be handled on a case by case manner. If deception was involved then obviously a crime is committed, easy. When money is found in a slot machine, Surveillance first needs to determine if it had been abandoned or whether a person has the "intent" to return to claim the funds......as you can see from a few words here, it isn't quite as cut and dried.

How do you prove "intent" or the lack thereof for that matter?

If you find a chip on the floor, I would suggest you take it to the Security podium and turn it in. If it is unclaimed after (I believe) two weeks the chip or more likely the value of the chip becomes yours.

If you find money in a slot machine, you better make very sure nobody is coming back to claim the money. I would just leave the money right there and let some other sap deal with the inevitable consequences.

Just my opinion of course, each casino will deal with this touchy issue in its own way.

Rather err on the side of caution!
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
beachbumbabs
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November 11th, 2013 at 8:14:31 PM permalink
Quote: Tomspur

Very tough question to answer. The law is just a little ambiguous when it comes to "found money" and moreover what it deems to be "abandoned money".

It would have to be handled on a case by case manner. If deception was involved then obviously a crime is committed, easy. When money is found in a slot machine, Surveillance first needs to determine if it had been abandoned or whether a person has the "intent" to return to claim the funds......as you can see from a few words here, it isn't quite as cut and dried.

How do you prove "intent" or the lack thereof for that matter?

If you find a chip on the floor, I would suggest you take it to the Security podium and turn it in. If it is unclaimed after (I believe) two weeks the chip or more likely the value of the chip becomes yours.

If you find money in a slot machine, you better make very sure nobody is coming back to claim the money. I would just leave the money right there and let some other sap deal with the inevitable consequences.

Just my opinion of course, each casino will deal with this touchy issue in its own way.

Rather err on the side of caution!



If the money's in a machine you want to play that's otherwise vacant, does it count to cash it out and put the ticket on the side for whoever might come back for it, or is a new player supposed to assume the last person's in the bathroom or someplace they're coming back from soon and have some right of return to the machine itself? Seems like there could be any number of reasons money might be in a machine, including someone leaving in a hurry and forgetting to cash it out. Curious about your perspective on this.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Tomspur
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November 11th, 2013 at 9:13:16 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

If the money's in a machine you want to play that's otherwise vacant, does it count to cash it out and put the ticket on the side for whoever might come back for it, or is a new player supposed to assume the last person's in the bathroom or someplace they're coming back from soon and have some right of return to the machine itself? Seems like there could be any number of reasons money might be in a machine, including someone leaving in a hurry and forgetting to cash it out. Curious about your perspective on this.



As I said Babs, it is going to depend on casino to casino. The rule is, and this is a very loose interpretation, that if a player leaves money in a machine and moves two banks (or two rows) away from the machine for a period exceeding 5 minutes then the money inside that machine can be reasonably thought of as being abandoned. HOWEVER, if a player has intent on returning, perhaps putting keys in the coin in area, perhaps placing the chair up against the machine or perhaps asking the player adjacent to the machine in question to "hold my spot" then the money is not abandoned and the person has to be given a fair amount of time to return and take up his or her position.
Again, each casino will have a different interpretation of this rule.

Here is an important aside.......Abandoned money is considered the property of the casino who has to pass the money on to the gaming commission if it isn't collected within a certain time frame. So, if you find a machine that has money in and you decide that you want to liberate said machine from its funds and the casino can PROVE that the money is abandoned then you are breaking the law and can so be charged.

Again, the casino may not want to go through all that effort to get you charged and also to prove that you had intent to steal "abandoned" money, so they will simply trespass you from their property or any other property in their chain. If you break the trespass then again, you are breaking the law and Metro will be called.

Babs, I guess I need to ask what you mean by "money int he machine that is otherwise vacant"? Is it because you have been watching the machine, want to play it but not sure if the player is coming back to it or not? So when you see the credits in the machine you want to know if you may remove the credits, place the TITO on the side of the game so that IF the player decides to come back they can take their money and move to a different machine?
IMO, I would call a slot attendant and let them make the call. You will in all probability still be able to play the machine but it may take some investigating from the casino side. Normally a simple phone call to Surveillance would do the trick. It is better to involve the casino to make the decision than take the matter into your own hands and perhaps get the outcoem wrong?

Again,just my humle opinion.
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
Perdition
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November 11th, 2013 at 9:40:30 PM permalink
If you pressed the cash out button, wrote the slot number or location down and turned the ticket into the cage, would they be happy with that or think you overstepped your bounds?
Tomspur
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November 11th, 2013 at 9:57:59 PM permalink
Quote: Perdition

If you pressed the cash out button, wrote the slot number or location down and turned the ticket into the cage, would they be happy with that or think you overstepped your bounds?



Again it is a very tough call to make because now you as the player has decided whether this slot and money was abandoned. You and you alone took action on a situation where you did not have enough information available to you.

Casinos may thank you, mark the ticket and take your details and leave it at that, probably most of them but what would happen if, 2 minutes into your play the player shows up, shows you her pack of smokes in the coin tray that you missed previously and chastises you for taking her machine that she has been playing for 7 hours already?

Think about making life easier for yourself not more difficult. If you want to play the machine that badly explain the situation to a slot attendant and let them help you out, otherwise find another machine.
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
EvenBob
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November 11th, 2013 at 10:00:01 PM permalink
I've played abandoned money in machines for 30 years and
never thought a thing about it. There's a whole subculture in
Vegas that does it for a meager living and has done it forever.
I saw it on 60 Minutes a few years ago.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Tomspur
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November 11th, 2013 at 10:19:56 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

I've played abandoned money in machines for 30 years and
never thought a thing about it. There's a whole subculture in
Vegas that does it for a meager living and has done it forever.
I saw it on 60 Minutes a few years ago.



Yes there absolutely is a whole group of people who do it on a daily basis. They have a name for them too. They are called "slot checkers". These are the people who walk from slot to slot and check to see if there is any money left inside. They will then either play the money but more likely cash out and head for the doors.

There is an even murkier side to this discussion. The law states that, in order for a crime to have taken place, there should be a victim? I don't know US laws that well so I won't be commenting on that, but let me ask you the question. Is there a victim if you play abandoned credits in a machine?

The answer in my opinion would be yes, the state is the victim. The money is supposed to be returned to them. I know there is a way they have to handle this type of money but I'm not sure exactly what happens to the funds.

Also remember another very important point. Surveillance cannot watch every one of the 2000 or so slot machines on the floor LIVE, they can only review actions randomly. If someone never claims that the money is missing, how would anybody know the money was gone?

This is a very testy subject and is also very subjective.
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
EvenBob
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November 11th, 2013 at 10:35:37 PM permalink
Quote: Tomspur



The answer in my opinion would be yes, the state is the victim. The money is supposed to be returned to them. .



Returned? It wasn't their's to begin with. What's the difference
who plays it, me or the original player. The machine or the
casino doesn't know the difference.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Tomspur
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November 11th, 2013 at 10:38:56 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Returned? It wasn't their's to begin with. What's the difference
who plays it, me or the original player. The machine or the
casino doesn't know the difference.


My apologies, I shouldn't have used the word "returned".

The law states that any abandoned monies should be kept by the casino for a period of time, thereafter it should be handed over the the state in order for them to redistribute the funds in such a way thatw ould benefit the tax payer......I have no ide what that may be.

I don't want to harp on a point I have mentioend already but it is very difficult to prove that money has been abandoned and currently is a grey area of note, in fact it is a downright headache.
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
EvenBob
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November 11th, 2013 at 10:43:02 PM permalink
Quote: Tomspur



I don't want to harp on a point I have mentioend already but it is very difficult to prove that money has been abandoned and currently is a grey area of note, in fact it is a downright headache.



Being in surv, ever busted anybody on this? Does the casino
really care to?
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Tomspur
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November 11th, 2013 at 10:53:15 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Being in surv, ever busted anybody on this? Does the casino
really care to?



Bob, again it is a situational issue. If someone complains about the money being gone, we investigate and try to find the transgressor. The casino will not prosecute unless the money involved is more than $200 in which case it becomes a felony charge. All they will do if they find you and can prove that the money belonged to someone else through Surveillance footage is they will trespass you from the property.

If you have been playing abandoned credits for 30 years then I understand. Just know that there are consequences for playing them if someone pipes up and claims those credits to be their own.

Casinos have bigger fish to fry but that doesn't mean they take claims lightly. If the evidence is there you are out the door.

We have busted many "slot checkers" yes. We trespass them and send them on their way. The next day they are back and doing the same thing. For the most part they are vagrants who need the money.......kinda hard to be too tough on them. Vegas is an incredibly hard town to live in for some.
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
speedycrap
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November 11th, 2013 at 10:53:27 PM permalink
I found money/chips at the casino all the time. Slot quarters/small vouchers. A lot of big shots players dont cash in 25C voucher.As long as it is small amount, no one will care.
Tomspur
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November 11th, 2013 at 10:59:48 PM permalink
Quote: speedycrap

I found money/chips at the casino all the time. Slot quarters/small vouchers. A lot of big shots players dont cash in 25C voucher.As long as it is small amount, no one will care.



I suspect you are right about the small amounts. however there is a difference if you find a chip on the floor, or cash for that matter.

These things don't just materialize out of thin air. They were either dropped there by another guest or perhaps fallen out of a cocktail waitresses tray or perhaps fallen out of a dealers chip rack.

I watched a player claim he dropped a $100 bill on the floor on a craps game and he saw an employee pick up the bill. When we reviewed we saw the employee pick up the bill and head to her station. At the time of picking up the bill she was about 20 feet away from the Security podium. She decided to keep the money on her until her next break before hadning it in (or so she said). She was fired on the spot for not handing the money in straight away.

Casinos have rules, some MICS and others imposed by the state. It is tough controlling every aspect of your business. Sometimes you rely on the actions of your guests to do the honorable thing....other times the guests get away with it.

Like I said, this is a very tough subject to understand and take action on.
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
EvenBob
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November 11th, 2013 at 11:14:48 PM permalink
Quote: Tomspur

She decided to keep the money on her until her next break before hadning it in (or so she said). She was fired on the spot for not handing the money in straight away.



For every employee you catch, there are a hundred that
get away with it, probably. Casino rules are fascinating,
I like reading about what dealers got away with in the 40's
and 50's. When Bugsy opened the Flamingo in 1947, he
got all Downtown dealers and they robbed him blind. So
badly was he robbed, that even though the casino was
crowded every day the first week, they made no profit.
Downtown resented the hell out of the Strip and wanted
it shut down.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Tomspur
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November 11th, 2013 at 11:24:52 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

For every employee you catch, there are a hundred that
get away with it, probably. Casino rules are fascinating,
I like reading about what dealers got away with in the 40's
and 50's. When Bugsy opened the Flamingo in 1947, he
got all Downtown dealers and they robbed him blind. So
badly was he robbed, that even though the casino was
crowded every day the first week, they made no profit.
Downtown resented the hell out of the Strip and wanted
it shut down.



Spot on. The amount of employee fraud far outweigh the amount of customer theft or similar crimes. Makes you have newfound respect for the body of work each Surveillance agent has to get through on a daily basis.

I have a good friend who was around in the mob run casinos. The stories he has told me have been absolutely fascinating. The stories you hear about and se on movies reinacted, multiply that by 100 and you get somewhere close tow hat really happened.
By all accounts Vegas was a mans town back then and as long as you keep your nose clean you would never get 86'ed. I'm sure you guys have heard that term before?? Know where it came from?

8 miles out.......

6 feet under...... :)
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
speedycrap
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November 11th, 2013 at 11:28:53 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

For every employee you catch, there are a hundred that
get away with it, probably. Casino rules are fascinating,
I like reading about what dealers got away with in the 40's
and 50's. When Bugsy opened the Flamingo in 1947, he
got all Downtown dealers and they robbed him blind. So
badly was he robbed, that even though the casino was
crowded every day the first week, they made no profit.
Downtown resented the hell out of the Strip and wanted
it shut down.


Dearlers did not rob him. HE robbed himself.
Ibeatyouraces
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November 11th, 2013 at 11:30:20 PM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Tomspur
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November 11th, 2013 at 11:45:39 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Don't be so certain...

http://www.gamblingandthelaw.com/index.php/columns/59-115slottraynickel

Edit: undercover security there at Motorcity still follow and harass slot players.



I know this next comment has no place on this thread but here goes anyway......

The jury system is the silliest thing I have ever come across in my life. Why should a jury of your "peers" (read people who, on many occasions don't have a clue about the law) be allowed to apply the law?

I would much rather trust a judge than 12 people who simply have to agree?

Just my opinion of course. I come from a country where a full bank of judges make the hard decisions, not a jury of your peers.
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
Ibeatyouraces
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November 11th, 2013 at 11:50:53 PM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
rainman
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November 11th, 2013 at 11:53:17 PM permalink
Quote: Tomspur

I know this next comment has no place on this thread but here goes anyway......

The jury system is the silliest thing I have ever come across in my life. Why should a jury of your "peers" (read people who, on many occasions don't have a clue about the law) be allowed to apply the law?

I would much rather trust a judge than 12 people who simply have to agree?

Just my opinion of course. I come from a country where a full bank of judges make the hard decisions, not a jury of your peers.



Actually the jury decides your guilt or innocence. After which a judge decides how much ass kicking (law applying) you need.
Tomspur
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November 11th, 2013 at 11:56:49 PM permalink
Quote: rainman

Actually the jury decides your guilt or innocence. After which a judge decides how much ass kicking you need.



I completely understand hence my extreme apprehention. I wouldn't want a jury to decide my guilt, I should have mentioned that above :)
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
speedycrap
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November 12th, 2013 at 12:01:01 AM permalink
Quote: Tomspur

I know this next comment has no place on this thread but here goes anyway......

The jury system is the silliest thing I have ever come across in my life. Why should a jury of your "peers" (read people who, on many occasions don't have a clue about the law) be allowed to apply the law?

I would much rather trust a judge than 12 people who simply have to agree?

Just my opinion of course. I come from a country where a full bank of judges make the hard decisions, not a jury of your peers.


There is no PERFECT system. Just like no perfect life. And it is the im-perfectness to make life interesting.
Say you play BJ and you are SURE you are going to win every hand. That will make the game completely no purpose. Right!!!???
Life is an adventure just like gambling.
Tomspur
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November 12th, 2013 at 12:05:32 AM permalink
Quote: speedycrap

There is no PERFECT system. Just like no perfect life. And it is the im-perfectness to make life interesting.
Say you play BJ and you are SURE you are going to win every hand. That will make the game completely no purpose. Right!!!???
Life is an adventure just like gambling.



But just like gambling, I like to give myself at least a fighting chance by playing games with a low -EV or perhaps, if I'm lucky eek out a slight advantage every now and again.

I don't play blackjack to stand on 5 against a dealer 10 simply because my buddy who has never played the game, "got a feeling" :)

I know I'm stretching a bit and I hear you about no perfect system but at least put the decision making ability in the hands of the professionals, not anybody with a Social Security card.
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
EvenBob
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November 12th, 2013 at 12:07:28 AM permalink
Quote: speedycrap

Dearlers did not rob him. HE robbed himself.



Not the first week he didn't. The fix was in, the old time
dealers had shills playing and they overpayed the hell
out of them. 1 for the casino, 3 for the shill. Bugsy
never knew what hit him. Downtown still hates the
Strip, in the late 40's it was the mob against the mob.
Bugsy lost.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
speedycrap
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November 12th, 2013 at 12:12:58 AM permalink
Good night EB and Tom. I just won a few hundred dollars online(poker) Omaha high. I hit or my opponent did not hit every hand. 0.5-1.0 buy in $80. cashing out $585. Hahahaaaaaaa...... all the way to the bank.....
Tomspur
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November 12th, 2013 at 12:28:18 AM permalink
Quote: speedycrap

Good night EB and Tom. I just won a few hundred dollars online(poker) Omaha high. I hit or my opponent did not hit every hand. 0.5-1.0 buy in $80. cashing out $585. Hahahaaaaaaa...... all the way to the bank.....



Good job bro, don't give it all back at the candy store!! :)
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
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