Thread Rating:

EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
  • Threads: 425
  • Posts: 24291
October 9th, 2013 at 2:35:54 PM permalink
In another thread Dicenor33 said:

"I think it's wrong to change the outcome of the game in favor of a player by using an advantage play."

The Wiz opined thusly:

"If the casino allows it, then do it."

Is it really any simpler than that? What does ethics or
fairness have to do with it. If the casino allows it, if
there are no rules against it, why not do it if you can.
How is it wrong? If the casino wants games that AP's
can't touch, then just offer those games. But they don't,
they'd rather whine and cry like babies and spend $2.00
to stop an AP from getting $1.50. It makes no sense.
It's like a bank leaving an open basket full of money next
to their ATM every night, and then complaining how the
basket was always empty the next day. Well, duh..

In 1995, MI introduced aluminum can recycling machines.
Insert a can, get your 10 cent deposit back. The problem
was, the bar code on an out of state can looked the same
to the machine as a MI can did. There was even an episode
on Seinfeld about this.

This spawned a whole cottage industry of people bringing in
cans from neighboring states, mostly IN. Some would collect
cans for a few weeks and rent a big truck and take back
thousands of cans at dozens of stores. They were making a
living at it, and it wasn't illegal. They weren't even hurting
the industry because millions of cans are thrown away by
consumers, they don't take them back for the refund.

Was this unethical to bring in out of state cans if nobody was
being hurt by it? It wasn't against the law. It was a form of
AP. If caught be the cops, their cans would be
confiscated, but that's all. That changed in 1998 when they
passed a law against it and getting caught at a store with
cans or bottles over a certain amount was a low grade felony.
But in those 3 years a lot of people made a lot of money because
of a loophole in the law.

If casinos don't want AP's, close the loopholes. Or shut up about
it.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
tringlomane
tringlomane
Joined: Aug 25, 2012
  • Threads: 8
  • Posts: 6267
October 9th, 2013 at 2:47:41 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob



Was this unethical to bring in out of state cans if nobody was
being hurt by it? It wasn't against the law. It was a form of
AP. If caught be the cops, their cans would be
confiscated, but that's all. That changed in 1998 when they
passed a law against it and getting caught at a store with
cans or bottles over a certain amount was a low grade felony.
But in those 3 years a lot of people made a lot of money because
of a loophole in the law.

If casinos don't want AP's, close the loopholes. Or shut up about
it.



So the state of Michigan didn't get hurt by these people...?
Mosca
Mosca
Joined: Dec 14, 2009
  • Threads: 178
  • Posts: 3804
October 9th, 2013 at 2:48:30 PM permalink
When I was 18, we used to take my big ol' '64 LeSabre station wagon behind grocery stores, load it up with bottles and bring them back around to the front and re-collect the deposit on them.

I'm pretty sure that was illegal though.

Anyhow, you can get back to your discussion now.
NO KILL I
beachbumbabs
Administrator
beachbumbabs
Joined: May 21, 2013
  • Threads: 99
  • Posts: 14230
October 9th, 2013 at 2:56:55 PM permalink
Quote: Mosca

When I was 18, we used to take my big ol' '64 LeSabre station wagon behind grocery stores, load it up with bottles and bring them back around to the front and re-collect the deposit on them.

I'm pretty sure that was illegal though.

Anyhow, you can get back to your discussion now.



That's a great one, Mosca! Nothing but admiration for your creativity on that maneuver.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
RaleighCraps
RaleighCraps
Joined: Feb 20, 2010
  • Threads: 79
  • Posts: 2501
October 9th, 2013 at 2:59:48 PM permalink
I think the question of whether or not it is ethical is because of the potential negative impact on other players.

You have discovered an advantage throw, but the downside is you throw very few 6s and 8s.

But since I am not aware you have this throw, is it ethical for you to use the throw, which puts me at a severe disadvantage on my Place 6 and 8?

Now back to this thread.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
beachbumbabs
Administrator
beachbumbabs
Joined: May 21, 2013
  • Threads: 99
  • Posts: 14230
October 9th, 2013 at 3:11:08 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

In another thread Dicenor33 said:

"I think it's wrong to change the outcome of the game in favor of a player by using an advantage play."

The Wiz opined thusly:

"If the casino allows it, then do it."

Is it really any simpler than that? What does ethics or
fairness have to do with it. If the casino allows it, if
there are no rules against it, why not do it if you can.
How is it wrong? If the casino wants games that AP's
can't touch, then just offer those games. But they don't,
they'd rather whine and cry like babies and spend $2.00
to stop an AP from getting $1.50. It makes no sense.
It's like a bank leaving an open basket full of money next
to their ATM every night, and then complaining how the
basket was always empty the next day. Well, duh..

In 1995, MI introduced aluminum can recycling machines.
Insert a can, get your 10 cent deposit back. The problem
was, the bar code on an out of state can looked the same
to the machine as a MI can did. There was even an episode
on Seinfeld about this.

This spawned a whole cottage industry of people bringing in
cans from neighboring states, mostly IN. Some would collect
cans for a few weeks and rent a big truck and take back
thousands of cans at dozens of stores. They were making a
living at it, and it wasn't illegal. They weren't even hurting
the industry because millions of cans are thrown away by
consumers, they don't take them back for the refund.

Was this unethical to bring in out of state cans if nobody was
being hurt by it? It wasn't against the law. It was a form of
AP. If caught be the cops, their cans would be
confiscated, but that's all. That changed in 1998 when they
passed a law against it and getting caught at a store with
cans or bottles over a certain amount was a low grade felony.
But in those 3 years a lot of people made a lot of money because
of a loophole in the law.

If casinos don't want AP's, close the loopholes. Or shut up about
it.



I agree fully with what EB's saying here, with one caveat; the casino has the right to refuse service to anyone. They're getting more and more aggressive about applying that right, and there's a huge amount of unhappiness being expressed in many threads on this board from those either practicing or perceived to be practicing AP techniques whom the casinos have turned away. I don't think you can have it both ways. I think AP play that exploits weaknesses in math, calculated variance or volitility, dealer or casino procedures, programming errors, or just a detectable change in EV from - to +, is perfectly ethical; let the casino do their jobs and protect their games. And in return, if a casino wants to back off or ban a player, they really don't even need to justify it; if they don't want his/her play, an AP really has no reasonable recourse.

In the can return scenario, yes, I think that was unethical, because the program was intended to be a zero-sum program, where the deposit was paid when purchasing the product, and then returned in full when the container was returned. Illegal, apparently not, but it cost the state of Michigan some amount of money (millions, maybe, over 3 years?) they had not budgeted for by people who had not paid the state taxes or the deposit amount. Comes under the heading of "No good deed goes unpunished" I think.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
mickeycrimm
mickeycrimm
Joined: Jul 13, 2013
  • Threads: 62
  • Posts: 2299
October 9th, 2013 at 3:27:03 PM permalink
Quote: Mosca

When I was 18, we used to take my big ol' '64 LeSabre station wagon behind grocery stores, load it up with bottles and bring them back around to the front and re-collect the deposit on them. I'm pretty sure that was illegal though. Anyhow, you can get back to your discussion now.



LOL! I did this trick when I was 13. Lamendola's Supermarket in Gonzalez, Louisiana. That was in the days of the old wooden cases. The bottles were 3 cents a piece. I think the case was 50 cents or something. So I would grab a case out back and walk it around through the front door. Pocket change for the pool hall. You had to pay 20 cents if you lost the 8 ball game.

I knew an AP who hauled cans to Michigan. The same thing was going on in Las Vegas. There was a family downtown who bought cans for a higher price that what the recyclers were offering. Then they hauled the cans to California.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
  • Threads: 425
  • Posts: 24291
October 9th, 2013 at 3:53:43 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Illegal, apparently not, but it cost the state of Michigan some amount of money



I made that point in my OP. There were millions
of cans in MI that had a deposit paid on them and
were thrown away and not returned. The beverage
companies were getting an untaxed windfall from
all the money they collected in deposits that was
not given back in refunds. The bringing in of out of
state cans cut severely into this profit to the point
they finally got a law passed.

Lots of people in deposit states just can't be bothered
with returning cans and bottles, they'd rather take
the loss. If you get a can of coke for lunch, for instance,
it's much easier to just toss it in the trash than to carry
it around the rest of the day.
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
EvenBob
EvenBob
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
  • Threads: 425
  • Posts: 24291
October 9th, 2013 at 4:01:11 PM permalink
Remember the Seinfeld bottle deposit episode?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1blsZxXDCU
"It's not enough to succeed, your friends must fail." Gore Vidal
Tomspur
Tomspur
Joined: Jul 12, 2013
  • Threads: 28
  • Posts: 2019
October 11th, 2013 at 1:14:11 AM permalink
Here is my take and I think it is quite simple really.

Is it honest? If the law says it isn't dishonest then, well, there you go.
Is it fair? It is only unfair to the people who are not able to reasonably practice the art of AP.

I'm a casino guy but I simply, for the life of me cannot understand the balls deep crusade against AP's.

If I feel there is a +EV game on the floor I would do something about it..................

Keep on doing what you are doing guys, and if I am lucky enough to run a property someday, you are more than welcome to come try and beat us :)
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill

  • Jump to: