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EvenBob
EvenBob
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October 9th, 2013 at 2:35:54 PM permalink
In another thread Dicenor33 said:

"I think it's wrong to change the outcome of the game in favor of a player by using an advantage play."

The Wiz opined thusly:

"If the casino allows it, then do it."

Is it really any simpler than that? What does ethics or
fairness have to do with it. If the casino allows it, if
there are no rules against it, why not do it if you can.
How is it wrong? If the casino wants games that AP's
can't touch, then just offer those games. But they don't,
they'd rather whine and cry like babies and spend $2.00
to stop an AP from getting $1.50. It makes no sense.
It's like a bank leaving an open basket full of money next
to their ATM every night, and then complaining how the
basket was always empty the next day. Well, duh..

In 1995, MI introduced aluminum can recycling machines.
Insert a can, get your 10 cent deposit back. The problem
was, the bar code on an out of state can looked the same
to the machine as a MI can did. There was even an episode
on Seinfeld about this.

This spawned a whole cottage industry of people bringing in
cans from neighboring states, mostly IN. Some would collect
cans for a few weeks and rent a big truck and take back
thousands of cans at dozens of stores. They were making a
living at it, and it wasn't illegal. They weren't even hurting
the industry because millions of cans are thrown away by
consumers, they don't take them back for the refund.

Was this unethical to bring in out of state cans if nobody was
being hurt by it? It wasn't against the law. It was a form of
AP. If caught be the cops, their cans would be
confiscated, but that's all. That changed in 1998 when they
passed a law against it and getting caught at a store with
cans or bottles over a certain amount was a low grade felony.
But in those 3 years a lot of people made a lot of money because
of a loophole in the law.

If casinos don't want AP's, close the loopholes. Or shut up about
it.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
tringlomane
tringlomane
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October 9th, 2013 at 2:47:41 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob



Was this unethical to bring in out of state cans if nobody was
being hurt by it? It wasn't against the law. It was a form of
AP. If caught be the cops, their cans would be
confiscated, but that's all. That changed in 1998 when they
passed a law against it and getting caught at a store with
cans or bottles over a certain amount was a low grade felony.
But in those 3 years a lot of people made a lot of money because
of a loophole in the law.

If casinos don't want AP's, close the loopholes. Or shut up about
it.



So the state of Michigan didn't get hurt by these people...?
Mosca
Mosca
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October 9th, 2013 at 2:48:30 PM permalink
When I was 18, we used to take my big ol' '64 LeSabre station wagon behind grocery stores, load it up with bottles and bring them back around to the front and re-collect the deposit on them.

I'm pretty sure that was illegal though.

Anyhow, you can get back to your discussion now.
A falling knife has no handle.
beachbumbabs
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October 9th, 2013 at 2:56:55 PM permalink
Quote: Mosca

When I was 18, we used to take my big ol' '64 LeSabre station wagon behind grocery stores, load it up with bottles and bring them back around to the front and re-collect the deposit on them.

I'm pretty sure that was illegal though.

Anyhow, you can get back to your discussion now.



That's a great one, Mosca! Nothing but admiration for your creativity on that maneuver.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
RaleighCraps
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October 9th, 2013 at 2:59:48 PM permalink
I think the question of whether or not it is ethical is because of the potential negative impact on other players.

You have discovered an advantage throw, but the downside is you throw very few 6s and 8s.

But since I am not aware you have this throw, is it ethical for you to use the throw, which puts me at a severe disadvantage on my Place 6 and 8?

Now back to this thread.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back ! Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
beachbumbabs
beachbumbabs
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October 9th, 2013 at 3:11:08 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

In another thread Dicenor33 said:

"I think it's wrong to change the outcome of the game in favor of a player by using an advantage play."

The Wiz opined thusly:

"If the casino allows it, then do it."

Is it really any simpler than that? What does ethics or
fairness have to do with it. If the casino allows it, if
there are no rules against it, why not do it if you can.
How is it wrong? If the casino wants games that AP's
can't touch, then just offer those games. But they don't,
they'd rather whine and cry like babies and spend $2.00
to stop an AP from getting $1.50. It makes no sense.
It's like a bank leaving an open basket full of money next
to their ATM every night, and then complaining how the
basket was always empty the next day. Well, duh..

In 1995, MI introduced aluminum can recycling machines.
Insert a can, get your 10 cent deposit back. The problem
was, the bar code on an out of state can looked the same
to the machine as a MI can did. There was even an episode
on Seinfeld about this.

This spawned a whole cottage industry of people bringing in
cans from neighboring states, mostly IN. Some would collect
cans for a few weeks and rent a big truck and take back
thousands of cans at dozens of stores. They were making a
living at it, and it wasn't illegal. They weren't even hurting
the industry because millions of cans are thrown away by
consumers, they don't take them back for the refund.

Was this unethical to bring in out of state cans if nobody was
being hurt by it? It wasn't against the law. It was a form of
AP. If caught be the cops, their cans would be
confiscated, but that's all. That changed in 1998 when they
passed a law against it and getting caught at a store with
cans or bottles over a certain amount was a low grade felony.
But in those 3 years a lot of people made a lot of money because
of a loophole in the law.

If casinos don't want AP's, close the loopholes. Or shut up about
it.



I agree fully with what EB's saying here, with one caveat; the casino has the right to refuse service to anyone. They're getting more and more aggressive about applying that right, and there's a huge amount of unhappiness being expressed in many threads on this board from those either practicing or perceived to be practicing AP techniques whom the casinos have turned away. I don't think you can have it both ways. I think AP play that exploits weaknesses in math, calculated variance or volitility, dealer or casino procedures, programming errors, or just a detectable change in EV from - to +, is perfectly ethical; let the casino do their jobs and protect their games. And in return, if a casino wants to back off or ban a player, they really don't even need to justify it; if they don't want his/her play, an AP really has no reasonable recourse.

In the can return scenario, yes, I think that was unethical, because the program was intended to be a zero-sum program, where the deposit was paid when purchasing the product, and then returned in full when the container was returned. Illegal, apparently not, but it cost the state of Michigan some amount of money (millions, maybe, over 3 years?) they had not budgeted for by people who had not paid the state taxes or the deposit amount. Comes under the heading of "No good deed goes unpunished" I think.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
mickeycrimm
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October 9th, 2013 at 3:27:03 PM permalink
Quote: Mosca

When I was 18, we used to take my big ol' '64 LeSabre station wagon behind grocery stores, load it up with bottles and bring them back around to the front and re-collect the deposit on them. I'm pretty sure that was illegal though. Anyhow, you can get back to your discussion now.



LOL! I did this trick when I was 13. Lamendola's Supermarket in Gonzalez, Louisiana. That was in the days of the old wooden cases. The bottles were 3 cents a piece. I think the case was 50 cents or something. So I would grab a case out back and walk it around through the front door. Pocket change for the pool hall. You had to pay 20 cents if you lost the 8 ball game.

I knew an AP who hauled cans to Michigan. The same thing was going on in Las Vegas. There was a family downtown who bought cans for a higher price that what the recyclers were offering. Then they hauled the cans to California.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
EvenBob
EvenBob
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October 9th, 2013 at 3:53:43 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Illegal, apparently not, but it cost the state of Michigan some amount of money



I made that point in my OP. There were millions
of cans in MI that had a deposit paid on them and
were thrown away and not returned. The beverage
companies were getting an untaxed windfall from
all the money they collected in deposits that was
not given back in refunds. The bringing in of out of
state cans cut severely into this profit to the point
they finally got a law passed.

Lots of people in deposit states just can't be bothered
with returning cans and bottles, they'd rather take
the loss. If you get a can of coke for lunch, for instance,
it's much easier to just toss it in the trash than to carry
it around the rest of the day.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
EvenBob
EvenBob
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October 9th, 2013 at 4:01:11 PM permalink
Remember the Seinfeld bottle deposit episode?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1blsZxXDCU
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Tomspur
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October 11th, 2013 at 1:14:11 AM permalink
Here is my take and I think it is quite simple really.

Is it honest? If the law says it isn't dishonest then, well, there you go.
Is it fair? It is only unfair to the people who are not able to reasonably practice the art of AP.

I'm a casino guy but I simply, for the life of me cannot understand the balls deep crusade against AP's.

If I feel there is a +EV game on the floor I would do something about it..................

Keep on doing what you are doing guys, and if I am lucky enough to run a property someday, you are more than welcome to come try and beat us :)
“There is something about the outside of a horse that is good for the inside of a man.” - Winston Churchill
petroglyph
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October 11th, 2013 at 1:34:23 AM permalink
In the seventy's Washington had a deposit, I think it was a nickel and Oregon didn't. Crossing a lot of remote two lane in both state's it was visually obvious that people returned drink containers for the refund. [not all] But you'd see people picking them up, not so much if there wasn't any value other than weight.

I get tired of people nagging about recycle this or that, rinse em out, separate. What a bunch of crap. It takes a nickel's worth of water here in Az, to rinse one out and recycling plastics is a zero sum deal. Make them worth a dime and when you are done with it, just throw it somewhere that a picker can get to it and most of them will get returned.

I saved those stupid aluminum cans years ago for about a year, smashed them up bagged them up used up storage space, dealt with the whole stupid deal. When I took in two almost three giant black garbage bags of them I think I got 7 bucks. I ain't doin that again.

Pay the garbage man extra, puhlease. If plastic was worth anything they would pay you to return it, it's not like it's copper or something. People all worried about me recycling my aqua fina bottles, sheesh if it's so important use your own permanent drinking cup.

Oops, I almost got carried away there I must of thought I was on the bitch/complain thread.
AZDuffman
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October 11th, 2013 at 3:57:02 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob



In 1995, MI introduced aluminum can recycling machines.
Insert a can, get your 10 cent deposit back. The problem
was, the bar code on an out of state can looked the same
to the machine as a MI can did. There was even an episode
on Seinfeld about this.

All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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October 11th, 2013 at 4:02:51 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob



In 1995, MI introduced aluminum can recycling machines.
Insert a can, get your 10 cent deposit back. The problem
was, the bar code on an out of state can looked the same
to the machine as a MI can did. There was even an episode
on Seinfeld about this.



Do you mean perhaps 1985? I used to visit relatives in MI back then and they had the deposit at that time. I also remember the cans had to have the "MI 10c Deposit" for the store to take them because we collected cans for scrap as kids and it was a big deal to find one with the stamp. We actually saved the very few we found and took them down.

In the late 1990s I would buy pepsi on PA if it was on sale and take it back sometimes for the savings and no deposit. The bar codes were different and it didn't work. My buddy's wife tried the same thing when she was in college by the early 1990s and said it didn't work then, either.

I find it hard to believe the deposit-AP could last more than a super-short time, if at all. Too many people would see it coming.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
wroberson
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October 11th, 2013 at 6:11:17 AM permalink
Some advantage plays are questionable. Like going out of your way to see the dealers down card.
Buffering...
mickeycrimm
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October 14th, 2013 at 8:10:56 PM permalink
At ten cents a can the dumpster divers do pretty good in Michigan.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
Ibeatyouraces
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October 14th, 2013 at 8:15:35 PM permalink
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
Ibeatyouraces
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October 14th, 2013 at 8:16:27 PM permalink
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Zcore13
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October 14th, 2013 at 9:22:21 PM permalink
I'm behind the ropes every day and I agree with the Wiz any anyone else that says if it's not illegal/against the rules it's ok. I have no rules posted about trying to see a hole card. If you can do it, it's the Dealer's fault, not yours. If a roulette Dealer was to somehow spin the wheel exactly the same all the time and dis-proportionately end up with numbers in the same quadrant and you notice it and only bet those numbers, that's not your problem.

I have no problem with attempted AP. As a matter of fact, I enjoy it and it keeps me always trying to be better.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
Ahigh
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October 14th, 2013 at 9:26:33 PM permalink
Quote: Zcore13

I have no problem with attempted AP. As a matter of fact, I enjoy it and it keeps me always trying to be better.



Good thing you don't have a craps table.
aahigh.com
98Clubs
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October 14th, 2013 at 10:25:45 PM permalink
IS AP Legal and Fair? Only those AP's that are Legal are permitted. To hell with fair sez I, ARRRrrrr
Some people need to reimagine their thinking.
kewlj
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October 14th, 2013 at 10:57:57 PM permalink
Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Nothing questionable about it. 100% legal.



For me, there are two separate thoughts here. Legal and ethical. Someone else is going to decide what is legal or not. But each individual decides what is ethical according to his/her own beliefs.

Now hole-carding is an interesting case. It is legal. No question about it. As Zcore13 stated, it is the dealers and casinos responsibility to protect the game.

Now in my own case, I got into some hole-carding shortly after I moved to Vegas, a few years back for several months. It got to the point that not only was I scouting and seeking out 'sloppy' dealers, but at one point, I had one guys schedule down, and would schedule my play accordingly. And then one day, I decided, this was not the way I wanted to win. So I stopped scouting and seeking out weak dealers. Now during the natural course of play, I will run across a weak dealer occasionally. I am not going to pretend I didn't see his down card and will play accordingly, but I don't seek out those situation and that includes slouching down low in your chair for a better veiwing angle.

I really enjoy winning, with the information I am 'supposed to have', and I feel that I do this. The hardcore guys will argue that counting cards gives you information you are not intended to have. I don't buy that. Thinking, and forming a strategy based on cards seen is part of the game, just the same as in the card games of hearts or bridge. No one will ever convince me that thinking is illegal, against the rules, unethical or dishonest. :-)
beachbumbabs
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October 14th, 2013 at 11:16:57 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj

For me, there are two desperate thoughts here. Legal and ethical. Someone else is going to decide what is legal or not. But each individual decides what is ethical according to his/her own beliefs.

Now hole-carding is an interesting case. It is legal. No question about it. As Zcore13 stated, it is the dealers and casinos responsibility to protect the game.

Now in my own case, I got into some hole-carding shortly after I moved to Vegas, a few years back for several months. It got to the point that not only was I scouting and seeking out 'sloppy' dealers, but at one point, I had one guys schedule down, and would schedule my play accordingly. And then one day, I decided, this was not the way I wanted to win. So I stopped scouting and seeking out weak dealers. Now during the natural course of play, I will run across a weak dealer occasionally. I am not going to pretend I didn't see his down card and will play accordingly, but I don't seek out those situation and that includes slouching down low in your chair for a better veiwing angle.

I really enjoy winning, with the information I am 'supposed to have', and I feel that I do this. The hardcore guys will argue that counting cards gives you information you are not intended to have. I don't buy that. Thinking, and forming a strategy based on cards seen is part of the game, just the same as in the card games of hearts or bridge. No one will ever convince me that thinking is illegal, against the rules, unethical or dishonest. :-)



kewlj,

You and I are in exactly the same place on this, thanks for the post: you said it very well. (Disparate, by the way, though "desperate" is pretty funny).
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Ibeatyouraces
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October 14th, 2013 at 11:17:21 PM permalink
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DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
EvenBob
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October 14th, 2013 at 11:26:32 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj

No one will ever convince me that thinking is illegal, against the rules, unethical or dishonest. :-)



There is something creepy about hole carding, like cheating at
a board game so you can beat your little sister when you were
a kid. It's not the same as just using your brain to win.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Ibeatyouraces
Ibeatyouraces
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October 14th, 2013 at 11:48:30 PM permalink
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kewlj
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October 15th, 2013 at 1:02:31 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

kewlj,

You and I are in exactly the same place on this, thanks for the post: you said it very well. (Disparate, by the way, though "desperate" is pretty funny).



Actually, I meant separate. My lame tablet computer has a way of changing a lot of words, thinking that it is helping me. I didn't catch that one, but now have fixed it. Lol
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