What happens when you miss a payment
August 11th, 2013 at 9:28:18 PM
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Quote: boymimboif Terry Watanabe takes out a loan for 100M and loses 100M, the casino records the 100 million as revenue when the money is lost,
They can record it as blue bubble gum if they like,
they lost nothing. They have to record it for collection
purposes. It doesn't change the fact they are out
zero real dollars for the 100mil gamble.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
August 11th, 2013 at 9:29:28 PM
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Quote: EvenBobYou get to keep whats left after the marker is paid.
And that's not a risk?
The reason I'm going to "what ifs" is that you're insisting on considering only the situation where the chance elements are already fixed as very favorable to the casino (you've lost $10,000) so that when you introduce a human element that negates the position of this localized scenario on the bell curve you can make a loss look like a push. It's like someone who wins the lottery and refuses to believe the ticket was an unsound purchase, because they won.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
August 11th, 2013 at 9:31:34 PM
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Quote: EvenBobAnd I believed in the Easter Bunny at one time.
I love how you say this even after hearing it from the horse's mouth.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
August 11th, 2013 at 9:47:39 PM
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Quote: 24Bingo
The reason I'm going to "what ifs" is that you're insisting on considering only
Blahty blah blah blah. Anything to get out of answering
the question of how much cash the casino is out on an
unpaid $10K marker when zero cash or real property
changed hands.
I was out $68 in real money for a $500 tab. I couldn't claim
the $432 profit I lost because I made no real money profit.
How much hard cash real money is the casino out on its
$10K marker.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
August 11th, 2013 at 9:55:31 PM
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I have answered you: having won $10K, and only by virtue of having won $10K, there was no net loss. That does not mean nothing was taken, only that they won the money to cover the hit. If you incur a debt - say there was damage to your hotel room - and have a hot streak that gives you the amount of the debt, does either cease to have existed?
And did you not deduct the $432 from your profits? If not, that's your problem.
And did you not deduct the $432 from your profits? If not, that's your problem.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
August 12th, 2013 at 12:41:17 AM
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you walk up to the craps table and ask for a 10k marker. The casino brings you over 10k in cash and you throw it on the table and the boxman counts it and gives you chips,. If you lose and dont pay it back, the casino is out 10k.'
Oh wait...the casino steamlines the process and makes it more simplified and cuts out the middle step of bringing you cash,,,and just counts out the chips for you?
and if you lose and dont pay it back...the casino is out nothing?
actually we are too focused on winning or losing. If you get a marker for 10k, and win, and sneak away from the table, cash it out and dont pay it back....th casino is still out 10k
the debt is the same whether you win or lose
the debt is the same whether the casino initially gives you a stack of cash which you buy chips with, or initially gives you chips.
some casinos have check writing services where ou can write a check at the cashoer cage. So instead of the marker system, you write a check for 500. They give you 500 dollars . You buy 500 in chips and lose it all. You put a stop on the check...the casino is out 500.
Or you bet the 500 and win 760 dollars....you still put a stop on the check...and the casino is out 500 dollars.
what is so hard to see.
Oh wait...the casino steamlines the process and makes it more simplified and cuts out the middle step of bringing you cash,,,and just counts out the chips for you?
and if you lose and dont pay it back...the casino is out nothing?
actually we are too focused on winning or losing. If you get a marker for 10k, and win, and sneak away from the table, cash it out and dont pay it back....th casino is still out 10k
the debt is the same whether you win or lose
the debt is the same whether the casino initially gives you a stack of cash which you buy chips with, or initially gives you chips.
some casinos have check writing services where ou can write a check at the cashoer cage. So instead of the marker system, you write a check for 500. They give you 500 dollars . You buy 500 in chips and lose it all. You put a stop on the check...the casino is out 500.
Or you bet the 500 and win 760 dollars....you still put a stop on the check...and the casino is out 500 dollars.
what is so hard to see.
August 12th, 2013 at 2:14:54 AM
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Oh for the days of that casino in Reno that had a "Play with what you bring" policy and had no credit department at all. No markers, no collections, no dummy entities, etc.
August 12th, 2013 at 5:02:00 AM
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Quote: EvenBobBlahty blah blah blah. Anything to get out of answering
the question of how much cash the casino is out on an
unpaid $10K marker when zero cash or real property
changed hands.
I was out $68 in real money for a $500 tab. I couldn't claim
the $432 profit I lost because I made no real money profit.
How much hard cash real money is the casino out on its
$10K marker.
You record the $500 as revenue, $68 as Cost of Goods Sold, decrease Inventory by $68, and record a bad debt expense by $500. That's the transaction. Now, you could have gone to a collection agency and paid them 1/2 of your receivables to collect. You could have limited credit to $100 to reduce your exposure. The point is that despite the low cost to you, you still lost money, and if every customer did that to you, you'd be out of business. So you get reasonable and decide that you are only going to give tabs to repeat customers and people you know. You are consciously making a credit decision on every patron who walks through your door.
Casinos do have plenty of patrons who take out markers and leave with more than what they came with, so of course, there is a risk to a casino. It's an opportunity cost, first off. Watanabe only gambled at CZR properties and CZR spent quite a bit of real cash in comps to lure him him. Employees have a real cost in spending time making him happy. Casinos have no interest in lending money to people who won't pay, as they recognize that a customer who doesn't pay has a player advantage of about 48% on blackjack and 47% in roulette. Casinos remove their risk by making their patrons exchange their chips for marker when they leave and therefore leave with a balance owing or cash.
I guess my point is is that NO REAL MONEY is out when someone takes out a marker and loses. But the casino loses plenty of real money when someone takes out a marker and WINS. That's why casinos actually do have a credit department who grant you credit based on your past play and your credit worthiness -- they need to know that they have a more than reasonable chance at collecting without having to put you in jail -- because you won't be gambling if you're in jail.
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You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
August 12th, 2013 at 9:42:50 AM
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I think EvenBob has a major flaw in his premise. Casinos WILL give you cash for a marker if they believe you are going to gamble. Slot players have got cash for markers for as long as I can remember. If the casino has TITO they will try to encourage you to take a ticket, but they will give you cash if you insist.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
August 12th, 2013 at 10:31:36 AM
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I read somewhere where a a poster posted that he had used his markers at several LV casinos to give himself a short-term interest free loan (under 30 days?). He said he didn't gamble at all, just left the casinos with the cash. When do markers have to be paid back by?
August 12th, 2013 at 10:47:26 AM
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How can there be a loss if no money left the casino? A guy signs a 1,000,000 dollar marker and loses it all then tells the casino to pound sand... he's not going to pay the marker ......the casino doesn't lose a penny. Is this really hard to figure out?
Each day is better than the next
August 12th, 2013 at 11:02:46 AM
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As far as real money goes, there is a cost to the casino to keep the doors open. (Someone else mentioned this, but I'm going to bring it up)
That cost has to be expressable in dollars/hour/player, though I don't know that casinos do it that way.
The cost of keeping the doors open includes (and I'm keeping this short):
Capital investment of property
Improvements/refurbishment
Utilities
Salaries, including but not limited to, Dealers, Pit Supes, Slot techs, Cust service, food or beverage servers, cleaners, admin, HR, security, other personnel
Salaries includes wage, benefits for all above; bene's typically add 30% cost to wages
Licensing of games
Equipment purchases and maintenance/upgrades/replacement
Taxes, fees, licensing
Theft losses/property damage
Stockholder dividends if any
In addition to the above, a player individually can cost:
comp beverages
comp food
comp room
comp cigs/other stuff
so, the 10K marker costs (assuming EB's main argument is valid) whatever the cost of providing the entire operation is expressed in d/h/p, times however many hours the player used the facility, plus whatever they individually consumed. The dollar value depends on providing figures for the items above, but certainly it's not 0.
That cost has to be expressable in dollars/hour/player, though I don't know that casinos do it that way.
The cost of keeping the doors open includes (and I'm keeping this short):
Capital investment of property
Improvements/refurbishment
Utilities
Salaries, including but not limited to, Dealers, Pit Supes, Slot techs, Cust service, food or beverage servers, cleaners, admin, HR, security, other personnel
Salaries includes wage, benefits for all above; bene's typically add 30% cost to wages
Licensing of games
Equipment purchases and maintenance/upgrades/replacement
Taxes, fees, licensing
Theft losses/property damage
Stockholder dividends if any
In addition to the above, a player individually can cost:
comp beverages
comp food
comp room
comp cigs/other stuff
so, the 10K marker costs (assuming EB's main argument is valid) whatever the cost of providing the entire operation is expressed in d/h/p, times however many hours the player used the facility, plus whatever they individually consumed. The dollar value depends on providing figures for the items above, but certainly it's not 0.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
August 12th, 2013 at 11:14:25 AM
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Markers in Nevada are easily convertible to criminal charges. so the collection agency is the County Prosecutor. Easy to collect those debts. Benny Binion had the best record with markers because he had the best reputation in giving them and every man was proud when Benny Binion called him by name, of course a man would make every effort he could to pony up when the time came. A mans marker meant something in those days.
Now its still the same thing... look what happens when you take out a marker and make a huge bet that wins and leave a really hefty tip for all the boys and girls. The casino pays their employees toke box right away .... but you leave and return home for a few days of "float" and sometimes a few weeks of "float". It may only be after a few weeks that a call will be made but the casinos do get worried sometimes. They don't want to lose a good customer.
Of course two brothers once ran a scheme at Baccarat... always taking markers, paying them the day after they got back home and getting higher credit limits the next time. Eventually, they took out markers in two casinos and two different shifts each and then cashed the chips and left town never to be seen again. When the casino sent collection agents they found those two brothers in the local graveyard, dead for seventy five years. All those markers and all those comps... to two con artists.
Now its still the same thing... look what happens when you take out a marker and make a huge bet that wins and leave a really hefty tip for all the boys and girls. The casino pays their employees toke box right away .... but you leave and return home for a few days of "float" and sometimes a few weeks of "float". It may only be after a few weeks that a call will be made but the casinos do get worried sometimes. They don't want to lose a good customer.
Of course two brothers once ran a scheme at Baccarat... always taking markers, paying them the day after they got back home and getting higher credit limits the next time. Eventually, they took out markers in two casinos and two different shifts each and then cashed the chips and left town never to be seen again. When the casino sent collection agents they found those two brothers in the local graveyard, dead for seventy five years. All those markers and all those comps... to two con artists.
August 12th, 2013 at 11:15:44 AM
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Quote: treetopbuddyHow can there be a loss if no money left the casino? A guy signs a 1,000,000 dollar marker and loses it all then tells the casino to pound sand... he's not going to pay the marker ......the casino doesn't lose a penny. Is this really hard to figure out?
A restaurant owner loans a guy $100 on a "marker." The guy orders and consumes a meal with his "date." He pays the tab with the $100 and tells the restaurant owner to pound sand...he's not going to pay the marker. No money has left the restaurant in that scenario either, so I guess from your perspective the restaurant owner didn't lose anything.
Another perspective is that the restaurant owner paid a bunch of money for things involved in operating his business and for which he expected to derive revenue from his customers. He extended a loan to one of them so that the particular customer might participate (if he chose to) and leave some/all of the $100 as revenue for the restaurant. Whether the customer orders/eats the meal or not, he still owes the restaurant owner $100.
August 12th, 2013 at 11:28:44 AM
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Quote: FleaStiff
Of course two brothers once ran a scheme at Baccarat... always taking markers, paying them the day after they got back home and getting higher credit limits the next time. Eventually, they took out markers in two casinos and two different shifts each and then cashed the chips and left town never to be seen again. When the casino sent collection agents they found those two brothers in the local graveyard, dead for seventy five years. All those markers and all those comps... to two con artists.
Great story.....time to get a fake ID
Each day is better than the next
August 12th, 2013 at 11:36:25 AM
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Quote: DocA restaurant owner loans a guy $100 on a "marker." The guy orders and consumes a meal with his "date." He pays the tab with the $100 and tells the restaurant owner to pound sand...he's not going to pay the marker. No money has left the restaurant in that scenario either, so I guess from your perspective the restaurant owner didn't lose anything.
Another perspective is that the restaurant owner paid a bunch of money for things involved in operating his business and for which he expected to derive revenue from his customers. He extended a loan to one of them so that the particular customer might participate (if he chose to) and leave some/all of the $100 as revenue for the restaurant. Whether the customer orders/eats the meal or not, he still owes the restaurant owner $100.
Same can occur is a pure service industry. If my company offers a use now, pay later trial for its system at $1000 per customer, and 7 customers don't pay, the company is out $7000 in revnue (it will sit in the account receivable column, one expects). Unpaid debts have closed many a small software firm. I guess they didn't lose a penny and were stupid to go under over it as they never really lost any money.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
August 12th, 2013 at 11:44:08 AM
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I had a dog and cat boarding business. Occasionally I'd get a bad check. Getting stiffed didn't cost me a penny. My costs were the same whether the dog was there or not......I was still owed the money and would make a call or two in an attempt to collect the debt but didn't lose any sleep over it......I was out no money.
Each day is better than the next
August 12th, 2013 at 11:55:05 AM
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"Had." Past tense. Wonder why.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
August 12th, 2013 at 12:00:53 PM
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Quote: 24Bingo"Had." Past tense. Wonder why.
Unlike you, my time was too valuable to run down a 50 dollar bad check. The business was and continues to be wildly successful. YFD
Each day is better than the next
August 12th, 2013 at 12:04:14 PM
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Quote: treetopbuddyI had a dog and cat boarding business. Occasionally I'd get a bad check. Getting stiffed didn't cost me a penny. My costs were the same whether the dog was there or not......I was still owed the money and would make a call or two in an attempt to collect the debt but didn't lose any sleep over it......I was out no money.
Your costs were the same? Jeez. Do the owners know that you didn't give their dogs food or water while you boarded them??
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
August 12th, 2013 at 12:12:37 PM
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Quote: rdw4potusYour costs were the same? Jeez. Do the owners know that you didn't give their dogs food or water while you boarded them??
Well Maurice Clarett, owners were required to bring their pets food in as to keep them on the same diet. Unique to pet boarding industry. As for the water.....really?
Each day is better than the next
August 12th, 2013 at 12:16:52 PM
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Quote: treetopbuddyHow can there be a loss if no money left the casino? A guy signs a 1,000,000 dollar marker and loses it all then tells the casino to pound sand... he's not going to pay the marker ......the casino doesn't lose a penny. Is this really hard to figure out?
Open a casino and start making those offers. Are you telling me you aren't going to bother chasing million dollar markers?
I may lose, or I may win more, but either way since I won't pay if I lose, it's a free shot at YOUR money.
Quote:Is this really hard to figure out?
No.
Sanitized for Your Protection
August 12th, 2013 at 12:24:30 PM
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Quote: rxwineOpen a casino and start making those offers. Are you telling me you aren't going to bother chasing million dollar markers?
I may lose, or I may win more, but either way since I won't pay if I lose, it's a free shot at YOUR money.
No.
We all know providing markers has added to the bottom lines of casinos.....let them have a free shot with the script.
Each day is better than the next
August 12th, 2013 at 12:30:31 PM
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Quote: treetopbuddyWell Maurice Clarett, owners were required to bring their pets food in as to keep them on the same diet. Unique to pet boarding industry. As for the water.....really?
I guess I haven't been to many boarders, but the ones I've visited were more than happy to sell a wide variety of bagged food at a ridiculous markup.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
August 12th, 2013 at 12:33:01 PM
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Quote: rdw4potusI guess I haven't been to many boarders, but the ones I've visited were more than happy to sell a wide variety of bagged food at a ridiculous markup.
#1 rule.......never up sell the customer......looks bad and will end up biting you in the ass.
Each day is better than the next
August 12th, 2013 at 12:33:14 PM
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If it was widely known that people could use your service once and bounce a check with no consequence it's likely that you would be out of business, especially if there are a number of competitors.
Of course there is a cost for you to operate a business. You paid for the capital to buy your equipment. You pay for the staff to look after the animals. You have to pay yourself. If 10% of your customers don't pay you, you're making 10% less. Instead of making $50K, you make $45K.
And in a casino environment where profit margins are increasingly thinner, the ability to collect on its markers is imperative for a casino's success.
If your bad debts are 1%, then it's no big deal. Casinos run a bad debt of something close to 15% of its recievables, about 3% of its total markers, and about 0.6% of its total revenue.
But to say that you're out no cash is a bunch of manure.
Of course there is a cost for you to operate a business. You paid for the capital to buy your equipment. You pay for the staff to look after the animals. You have to pay yourself. If 10% of your customers don't pay you, you're making 10% less. Instead of making $50K, you make $45K.
And in a casino environment where profit margins are increasingly thinner, the ability to collect on its markers is imperative for a casino's success.
If your bad debts are 1%, then it's no big deal. Casinos run a bad debt of something close to 15% of its recievables, about 3% of its total markers, and about 0.6% of its total revenue.
But to say that you're out no cash is a bunch of manure.
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You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
August 12th, 2013 at 12:43:02 PM
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Quote: boymimbo
But to say that you're out no cash is a bunch of manure.
You should have replaced the word manure with dog shit.....context.
Each day is better than the next
August 12th, 2013 at 12:52:50 PM
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>time to get a fake ID
Yeah, its tempting. What happened was one man was always betting really big while unknown to the Bacarat crew either two or three of the players at the other end of the table were making equal and opposite bets. So all night long, the team of 3 0R 4 members at one end of the table and Big Bettor at the other end of the table were never getting ahead and never losing... but the casino always noticed the really big action from ONE player at the other end of the table. The casino started him out at RFB and then started giving him markers which he always paid three days after getting home. Ideal customer for the casino. They gave him free rooms free dinners free cigars free booze and higher and higher credit limits. Until ....
Yeah, its tempting. What happened was one man was always betting really big while unknown to the Bacarat crew either two or three of the players at the other end of the table were making equal and opposite bets. So all night long, the team of 3 0R 4 members at one end of the table and Big Bettor at the other end of the table were never getting ahead and never losing... but the casino always noticed the really big action from ONE player at the other end of the table. The casino started him out at RFB and then started giving him markers which he always paid three days after getting home. Ideal customer for the casino. They gave him free rooms free dinners free cigars free booze and higher and higher credit limits. Until ....
August 12th, 2013 at 1:06:27 PM
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Quote: FleaStiff>time to get a fake ID
Yeah, its tempting. What happened was one man was always betting really big while unknown to the Bacarat crew either two or three of the players at the other end of the table were making equal and opposite bets. So all night long, the team of 3 0R 4 members at one end of the table and Big Bettor at the other end of the table were never getting ahead and never losing... but the casino always noticed the really big action from ONE player at the other end of the table. The casino started him out at RFB and then started giving him markers which he always paid three days after getting home. Ideal customer for the casino. They gave him free rooms free dinners free cigars free booze and higher and higher credit limits. Until ....
Did you forget the ladies? Free ladies?......Anyway, ladies or not you've got to love those guys. Nothing better than beating the casino however it's done.
Each day is better than the next
August 12th, 2013 at 1:23:34 PM
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Quote: EvenBobOK, I'll ask it again. I take a loan of $10K and lose it
and don't pay it back. How much cash is the casino
out?
Please be specific.
You have the wrong perspective. The casino lose to the player whenever he wins.
August 12th, 2013 at 1:30:06 PM
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Quote: MangoJYou have the wrong perspective. The casino lose to the player whenever he wins.
Well, that, and it'd depend on where the casino got the money. I'd imagine that they usually back-to-back these transactions, so if they actually pay the $10k to the ultimate guarantor to protect their own credit, then they're actually out $10k in cash.
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
August 12th, 2013 at 5:02:25 PM
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Quote: treetopbuddy.I was still owed the money and would make a call or two in an attempt to collect the debt but didn't lose any sleep over it......I was out no money.
Its a hard concept for people to understand. Thats why
for years in Nevada you couldn't legally go after dead
beat marker stiffs. The casino wasn't out any money,
so they could show no financial injury. Time to send
Biff and Elmer with the hammers and bats to collect
the money.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
August 13th, 2013 at 8:12:15 PM
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well I'm not gonna read this whole thread (even though I'm the OP LOL)......But I would like to propose a hypothetical to Bob since he seems to think stiffing a casino on a marker is not a "real loss" and only a "paper loss"...SO here is my hypothetical.....
OK Bob lets assume you are putting on a poker tourney.....You go out and rent 10 poker tables....pay to employ ten dealers...rent a banquet room to have the tourney....invite 100 players to play...you give each player a $100 marker....at the end of the night all the players stiff you on the marker.....was that night a "real financial loss" to you or only a "paper loss"?
OK Bob lets assume you are putting on a poker tourney.....You go out and rent 10 poker tables....pay to employ ten dealers...rent a banquet room to have the tourney....invite 100 players to play...you give each player a $100 marker....at the end of the night all the players stiff you on the marker.....was that night a "real financial loss" to you or only a "paper loss"?
August 13th, 2013 at 10:56:29 PM
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what do you mean the casino isnt out any money? No one knows if the person slipped a couple thousand in their pocket, quietly cashed out and kept some money. There is no garauntee that the person is going to lose it all back. Conceivably someone could get a marker at one table,. lose a little there, move to another table, lose a little there, and get lost in the hustle and bustle of the casino life. Cash out a couple thousand and walk away with casinos cash.
If someone doesnt pay back a marker do you think the casino goes back and looks at film to see if they lost the entire marker back or if they cashed out any money? They are still going to collect it all....whether the person lost it all back or walked out with the entire marker in chips or cash.A person can walk out with chips and cash out another time.
And what if a person loses a little at craps and then goes and buys into a poker game and loses the money to someone other than the casino.
an unpaid marker is a loss.
Spike said it exactly right ...for a person like him it IS a hard concept to understand
for others its rather evident.
And even if they lost it all....the casino pays alot of expense to keep a craps table going for your pleasure....and all they ask is that you put your money up at risk. Thats it. They pay wages and benefits for workers, they pay for waitreses and drinks, they pay energy costs, they pay for the tables and equipment ..they pay for it all...and all you have to do is walk up to the table and put your moeny at risk in order to partake of their service. They dont open their doors and pay all the expenses so the general public can put the casinos money at risk(through unpaid markers)....nope..they open their doors of the multibillion dollar casinos and give you all the comforts visually pleasant experiences.....and competant delaers........with the expectation that you will put your moeny at risk.
people who may never have been to a casino may not realize this
but thats reality.
I never took out a marker, but Have seen people sign for one....I am guessing that in small print of what they sign is an iron clad legal document for the casino to use as a collection tool in a courst of law. Oh you say the print is too small, and you dont know what you are signing>?????YEAH right...stand there and read it then....no one is stoping you.
If someone doesnt pay back a marker do you think the casino goes back and looks at film to see if they lost the entire marker back or if they cashed out any money? They are still going to collect it all....whether the person lost it all back or walked out with the entire marker in chips or cash.A person can walk out with chips and cash out another time.
And what if a person loses a little at craps and then goes and buys into a poker game and loses the money to someone other than the casino.
an unpaid marker is a loss.
Spike said it exactly right ...for a person like him it IS a hard concept to understand
for others its rather evident.
And even if they lost it all....the casino pays alot of expense to keep a craps table going for your pleasure....and all they ask is that you put your money up at risk. Thats it. They pay wages and benefits for workers, they pay for waitreses and drinks, they pay energy costs, they pay for the tables and equipment ..they pay for it all...and all you have to do is walk up to the table and put your moeny at risk in order to partake of their service. They dont open their doors and pay all the expenses so the general public can put the casinos money at risk(through unpaid markers)....nope..they open their doors of the multibillion dollar casinos and give you all the comforts visually pleasant experiences.....and competant delaers........with the expectation that you will put your moeny at risk.
people who may never have been to a casino may not realize this
but thats reality.
I never took out a marker, but Have seen people sign for one....I am guessing that in small print of what they sign is an iron clad legal document for the casino to use as a collection tool in a courst of law. Oh you say the print is too small, and you dont know what you are signing>?????YEAH right...stand there and read it then....no one is stoping you.
August 13th, 2013 at 10:58:44 PM
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Evenbob hook me up with a marker for $100k I'm good for it
"Man Babes" #AxelFabulous
August 14th, 2013 at 12:13:56 AM
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Its funny, everyone has a convoluted 'what if' scenario, but
nobody has said what a $10k marker costs the casino if
I put it all on one bet or ten bets, lose, and don't pay them
back. That's because we all know it cost them nothing.
All money is an idea, its a concept, it doesn't exist except in
in our minds. If they forget about it and tear the marker up,
how much cash are they out. Zero.
nobody has said what a $10k marker costs the casino if
I put it all on one bet or ten bets, lose, and don't pay them
back. That's because we all know it cost them nothing.
All money is an idea, its a concept, it doesn't exist except in
in our minds. If they forget about it and tear the marker up,
how much cash are they out. Zero.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
August 14th, 2013 at 3:04:28 AM
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I liked the article. I like many of the arguments. What I really liked about the article is the fact it's rare a good player can't get ahead in blackjack. I recall it happening to me maybe 2-3 times out of 100. There's video to prove this. It's rare...
However, the constants I noticed are
1. The markers are being called loans by the members when the article called them checks.
2. No members ever mentioned that they couldn't hit you up with a wage garnishment.
3. No one mentions that it is a felony to pass bad checks. So, the person taking a maker is ricking jail time for failure to pay.
As for is it a loss to the casino. We're reading the public side of this. The "what we know about it" side.
In "what if land" anything is possible.
Example: It might be a 3 sided coin here. You know about the casino, you know about the player, but you don't know if someone else is the true backer.
For all we know The Invisible Man is backing these markers is willing to pay the casino for it's loss if the player wins.
It's a loss for the player and the casino is at risk of losing money.
I like the idea of a 30 day interest free loan.
However, the constants I noticed are
1. The markers are being called loans by the members when the article called them checks.
2. No members ever mentioned that they couldn't hit you up with a wage garnishment.
3. No one mentions that it is a felony to pass bad checks. So, the person taking a maker is ricking jail time for failure to pay.
As for is it a loss to the casino. We're reading the public side of this. The "what we know about it" side.
In "what if land" anything is possible.
Example: It might be a 3 sided coin here. You know about the casino, you know about the player, but you don't know if someone else is the true backer.
For all we know The Invisible Man is backing these markers is willing to pay the casino for it's loss if the player wins.
It's a loss for the player and the casino is at risk of losing money.
I like the idea of a 30 day interest free loan.
Buffering...
August 14th, 2013 at 5:49:56 AM
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Quote: EvenBobIts funny, everyone has a convoluted 'what if' scenario, but
nobody has said what a $10k marker costs the casino if
I put it all on one bet or ten bets, lose, and don't pay them
back. That's because we all know it cost them nothing.
All money is an idea, its a concept, it doesn't exist except in
in our minds. If they forget about it and tear the marker up,
how much cash are they out. Zero.
There was a hint at something not very convoluted, what if the stiff loses it in the poker room?
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
August 14th, 2013 at 6:48:20 AM
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Quote: Mission146There was a hint at something not very convoluted, what if the stiff loses it in the poker room?
The Blues are playing the Coyotes. There was only $1000 bet on the game, $500 on the Blues at -110, $500 on the Coyotes -110. But then right before the puck drops two people take 10K markers out. One bets on the Blues, one bets on the Coyotes. Blues win! Coyote doesn't pay back the marker. Both leave town.
OR
Empty craps table. 2 guys show up with 2 10K markers. One bets pass, one don't pass. Yo is rolled. Don't pass doesn't pay marker. Both leave town.
August 14th, 2013 at 6:55:12 AM
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Quote: EvenBobIts funny, everyone has a convoluted 'what if' scenario, but
nobody has said what a $10k marker costs the casino if
I put it all on one bet or ten bets, lose, and don't pay them
back.
I'll answer. In your scenario, the casino has two separate events. They are minus $10,000 for the loan they made which is going to be never paid back. They are plus $10,000 for the money you lost gambling.
So.... if every single player who took a marker lost the entire amount of the marker, and didn't repay the marker, yes, the casino would be even (minus the costs of doing business.. salaries, electricity, etc).
But we know some people who take markers win. Some of the deadbeats might just not even gamble and use the money for rent. Who knows...
I think the correct way to look at it, and I'm sure this is how the casinos DO look at it, is that the cost to the casino for the small percentage of players that do not repay their markers is lower than the value to the casino of the majority of players that do repay their markers after losing. As a business decision, I am sure the overall effect for markers is quite positive for casinos, or else they wouldn't have them!
On a personal level, think about how you feel if you make a bet with a 'friend'. You bet $1000 on a weight loss challenge. The friend succeeds and I choose not to pay up. I should say... 'well, you never had the money so it is really no loss to you', so its no big deal that I didn't pay you?
August 14th, 2013 at 7:06:20 AM
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I'll bet there is no "I'm sorry, I was wrong" in any of those soon to be 12,000 posts. At any rate I'm not holding my breath!
When a rock is thrown into a pack of dogs, the one that yells the loudest is the one who got hit.
August 14th, 2013 at 7:36:30 AM
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I love how even the simplest things can go on forever here =)
Does this really take 10 pages lol? I mosey on up to Fallsview, take out $10k, plunk on red and lose, go home without paying. Casino doesn't lose anything. EB is right.
Ah, but that's also the same line of thinking that drives pattern and system bettors. Gaming isn't about me, it's about a collective. If I was the only one in the history of gaming to stiff, no loss. But it isn't just me, there are many people who stiff, some of which who win.
Single event - no loss
Grand scheme - loss.
It's not rocket surgery ;)
Does this really take 10 pages lol? I mosey on up to Fallsview, take out $10k, plunk on red and lose, go home without paying. Casino doesn't lose anything. EB is right.
Ah, but that's also the same line of thinking that drives pattern and system bettors. Gaming isn't about me, it's about a collective. If I was the only one in the history of gaming to stiff, no loss. But it isn't just me, there are many people who stiff, some of which who win.
Single event - no loss
Grand scheme - loss.
It's not rocket surgery ;)
The opinions of this moderator are for entertainment purposes only.
August 14th, 2013 at 12:42:25 PM
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Quote: SOOPOO
I think the correct way to look at it, and I'm sure this is how the casinos DO look at it, is that the cost to the casino for the small percentage of players that do not repay their markers
Because they're dealing in loaning Monopoly money,
in company script, in 'markers', the cost to them is
zero. Ever borrow money from somebody in a Monopoly
game? If he doesn't pay you back how much real money
are you out. Zero. The casino CANNOT loan you real
money, thats called loan sharking. But they can extend
you credit in the form of a marker. And up until recently
no law said you had to pay them back because all they
really loaned you was air.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
August 14th, 2013 at 12:49:47 PM
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Quote: EvenBob
All money is an idea, its a concept, it doesn't exist except in
in our minds. If they forget about it and tear the marker up,
how much cash are they out. Zero.
I thought this post would put this thread to bed.....but no......
Each day is better than the next
August 14th, 2013 at 12:55:44 PM
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Quote: EvenBobBecause they're dealing in loaning Monopoly money,
in company script, in 'markers', the cost to them is
zero. Ever borrow money from somebody in a Monopoly
game? If he doesn't pay you back how much real money
are you out. Zero. The casino CANNOT loan you real
money, thats called loan sharking. But they can extend
you credit in the form of a marker. And up until recently
no law said you had to pay them back because all they
really loaned you was air.
That still doesn't address the player losing the money at poker, other players win the majority of that, not the casino.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
August 14th, 2013 at 4:05:00 PM
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I'm sure it may vary amongst different companies and even different jurisdictions, but I have witnessed casino credit transactions only in the areas within my region. (MO, IL, IN, OH)
Although not a "marker player", I make it a habit to be observant.
Several times, I have witnessed individuals "getting markers".
Although not as frequent, I have also been present at tables where a player requests information detailing the process of setting up a line of credit.
The "markers" I am used to seeing are actual checks/bank drafts printed out by the casino and drawn from the person's bank. The player signs it just as if he/she were writing a check for a car payment, groceries, or anything else.
The "marker" was printed out like a check; the player's banking institution was at the top, the amount made payable to the casino, and the individual signing at the bottom right.
The few times I have seen people go through the process of establishing credit, it was always done through the cage. A cage supervisior would come to the table and bring an application. Along with the application, the player had to also provide a blank check from their bank.
Nobody ever received credit the same day as applying. At one casino, the cage supervisor informed the player she would contact him within 7 business days.
Whether the casino is "out" money or not, I know I cannot write bad checks in any of these states without legal repercussion.
Although not a "marker player", I make it a habit to be observant.
Several times, I have witnessed individuals "getting markers".
Although not as frequent, I have also been present at tables where a player requests information detailing the process of setting up a line of credit.
The "markers" I am used to seeing are actual checks/bank drafts printed out by the casino and drawn from the person's bank. The player signs it just as if he/she were writing a check for a car payment, groceries, or anything else.
The "marker" was printed out like a check; the player's banking institution was at the top, the amount made payable to the casino, and the individual signing at the bottom right.
The few times I have seen people go through the process of establishing credit, it was always done through the cage. A cage supervisior would come to the table and bring an application. Along with the application, the player had to also provide a blank check from their bank.
Nobody ever received credit the same day as applying. At one casino, the cage supervisor informed the player she would contact him within 7 business days.
Whether the casino is "out" money or not, I know I cannot write bad checks in any of these states without legal repercussion.
August 14th, 2013 at 5:34:48 PM
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Or the player who draws $1,000 or so, plays a while and cashes out $900+.Quote: Mission146That still doesn't address the player losing the money at poker, other players win the majority of that, not the casino.
August 14th, 2013 at 5:49:11 PM
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Quote: Mission146That still doesn't address the player losing the money at poker, other players win the majority of that, not the casino.
Thats because most (all?) casinos won't let you draw
a marker for poker. Look it up, I did. If you have a
line of credit tied to something like a credit card they
will, but thats because they get the money back
immediately.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
August 14th, 2013 at 6:38:20 PM
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If you know that every gambler is going to lose all his money in the casino you loan him for play, your idea works fine.
But since you can't to know the outcome of every individual player UNLESS YOU'RE CLAIMING THAT AS WELL, there is no way the casino does not absorb losses when players win, or even keep more than the house edge for the game they are playing.
But since you can't to know the outcome of every individual player UNLESS YOU'RE CLAIMING THAT AS WELL, there is no way the casino does not absorb losses when players win, or even keep more than the house edge for the game they are playing.
Sanitized for Your Protection
August 14th, 2013 at 7:03:29 PM
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Quote: EvenBobThats because most (all?) casinos won't let you draw
a marker for poker. Look it up, I did. If you have a
line of credit tied to something like a credit card they
will, but thats because they get the money back
immediately.
I know they've got a pin machine at the cage, and I'm not sure why else it would be there, or who would keep me from carrying my chips downstairs. But that's beside the point. Those chips, once they enter the rack - where do they go? How often does the casino keep 100% of the chips players have sat down with? Someone else has got some of those chips, more than likely, and that someone is going to cash out. It's true that, unlike the poker table, the take could well exceed the theoretical take, just like it could miss it badly, but that's not likely to happen beyond a certain threshold. The casino has lost money it had won, and therefore, has paid out its losses in full while being underpaid on its wins.
I mean, no money "exists," not really, not even gold, whose few uses that give it intrinsic value don't nearly justify the value placed on it, but is just a placeholder by someone's authority.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
