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EvenBob
EvenBob
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August 3rd, 2013 at 1:00:19 PM permalink
"Gambler's conceit is the fallacy.. where a gambler believes they will be able to stop a risky behavior while still engaging in it. This belief frequently operates during games of chance, such as casino games. The gambler believes they will be a net winner at the game, and thus able to avoid going broke by exerting the self-control necessary to stop playing while still ahead in winnings. This is often expressed as I'll quit when I'm ahead." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler%27s_conceit

An interesting subject, its what the 'gambling is entertainment'
myth is built on. The fallacy that if you continue to play you will
somehow get ahead and stay ahead of the casino. The vast
majority of non professional gamblers really believe this. If they
could just get lucky, just have that streak, just win that big jackpot,
they would stay ahead. And the casino does all it can to embellish
this myth, never hinting at the truth in any way.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
FleaStiff
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August 3rd, 2013 at 1:47:12 PM permalink
Gamblers quit when they run out of money or when a spouse makes things so bad that they might as well be out of money.

Gamblers always feel some innate skill at detecting a trend and making the right decision to ride the trend.

Free drinks are provided to erode the gamblers liklihood of walking with the casino's money in their pocket.

"Its entertainment" is a myth.
EvenBob
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August 3rd, 2013 at 2:05:49 PM permalink
I've told the story here of an older friend
who actively fostered the myth. He always
told his wife he won at the slots and even
had himself convinced he was ahead. He
said he loved going, yet every time I went
with him he was always agitated and visibly
upset the whole time we were there.

It took his wife going over his credit card invoices
for the last year to point out to him that in just
that year alone he'd made $60,000 in cash
withdrawals on his cards while in the casino.
God knows what he'd done in years past. It was
his wake up call, he stopped going entirely, no
more casino 'entertainment' for him.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
treetopbuddy
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August 3rd, 2013 at 2:25:02 PM permalink
I've been gambling for 30 plus years. My losses are around 500k, probably more if I were completely honest with myself. I consider the 15K per year in losses a nightmare not entertainment. Lost big playing blackjack, craps, roulette and finally Bac. I hang in there betting horses. I'm determined to get back every f***ing penny back. But how?
Each day is better than the next
1BB
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August 3rd, 2013 at 2:31:56 PM permalink
I think I may have mentioned this before but I know people who have put themselves on a casino's exclusion list. This is serious and exclusions can be one year, five years or lifetime perhaps depending on the jurisdiction. I also know some who have taken a casino job so they wouldn't be able to gamble. Now that casinos are abundant that may not be as effective as it once was.

I imagine this is highly personal but does anyone have any first hand experience with this?
Many people, especially ignorant people, want to punish you for speaking the truth. - Mahatma Ghandi
gr8player
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August 3rd, 2013 at 2:32:25 PM permalink
Well now, let's discuss this just a bit further, shall we?

Evenbob's quote just above is cut short before the second paragraph, which speaks alot more about "quitting while ahead". It "assumes" that we, collectively, as "gamblers", are not able to distinguish for themselves as to the most opportune time to terminate a session because we're "in the throes of a wining streak".

A rather broad stroke of assumption, IMHO.

What might be said of those "gamblers" that have much better control of their Baccarat game than what this "Gambler's Conceit" theory would actuallly give them credit for?

Possible? Yes? No?

And FleaStiff, as to your "riding of trends" comment.....

Nothing wrong with seeking out trends. And nothing wrong with betting for them as you see fit (read: as the shoe's results are unfolding).

The "wrong" part comes in the "chasing of invisible trends", or, just as troubling, the "chasing of one's money". In other words, faulty bet selection and just-as-faulty money management.

But I "ride trends" for a bet. One. Possible loss in that manner: One. Possible win in that manner: As many units as that continuous trend lasts for.

I also adjust my bets (yes, it's a progression) as my results are recorded.

Then, and only then, might I have a pretty good chance at success. Of "quitting a winner". Maybe. Maybe not. It's still gambling on a "turn-of-a-card". I do the best I can under the circumstances (read: house edge and limited casino access).

But that "Gambler's Conceit" theory sure seems to paint us all with the same brush, and that appears as a mistake to a person such as myself.
Doc
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August 3rd, 2013 at 2:33:29 PM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

"Its entertainment" is a myth.


I disagree.

I play in casinos as frequently as I have a convenient opportunity. I always play negative expectation games. I expect to come out ahead some of the time and behind some of the time but behind the casino overall. I have records of my gaming sessions for the last several years, and the results are very much as a rational mind would expect. I would prefer to win more money than I lose, but I am not quite looney enough to expect that to happen on a consistent basis. Whether I'm winning or losing in a particular session, I toke the dealers unless they have been pissing me off.

Yes, I lose money (and give some away) at the casinos. And while parting with this money, I have a hell of a lot of fun in the process. I consider that whole experience to be a form of entertainment.

BTW, I also go to a pretty fair number of plays, concerts, and sports events -- even an occasional movie -- but I have never been to a single one for which I departed the "session" with more money than I arrived. The possibility (not expectation) of that happening in a casino is one part of the entertainment value I get there. There are others.

Perhaps I should note that I am a low roller and not nearly so reckless as the joker that EvenBob wrote about. Also, I realize that there are many people who play the same games I do and some how "expect" to win money, even though they do not have any sort of real advantage. I think they are delusional, but that's their business. I suspect that quite a few people who consider themselves "Advantage Players" are also delusional. Maybe not, but either way that's their business, too. I'm not into that myself.
wroberson
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August 3rd, 2013 at 2:51:03 PM permalink
I'm sorry. Gambling is not fun.

I needed to clean this up. And I need to know this information.
115 days in the casino. 90 wins 25 losses for a net gain of +$15,000.00
I bet I have the stats in an email. I know the casinos have it.
I also know I'm an all or nothing kind of guy. All means to double up.
I've only been in a casino with $1000+ 18 times and won 13 of those.
All other trips were for loose change. 20-400 bucks and I know of 49 wins.
All other wins and losses were disbursed. With a few winning streaks that ended with 1 loss.
Buffering...
treetopbuddy
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August 3rd, 2013 at 3:39:20 PM permalink
delete
Each day is better than the next
24Bingo
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August 3rd, 2013 at 4:45:10 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

An interesting subject, its what the 'gambling is entertainment'
myth is built on. The fallacy that if you continue to play you will
somehow get ahead and stay ahead of the casino.



Is it? Because isn't the point of what you call "gambling is entertainment" that the casino is being paid for something?

Quote: EvenBob

The vast
majority of non professional gamblers really believe this. If they
could just get lucky, just have that streak, just win that big jackpot,
they would stay ahead. And the casino does all it can to embellish
this myth, never hinting at the truth in any way.



That is the truth. Hit that streak and you'll get ahead. You won't stay ahead, but you'll be no more likely to lose massively than before you hit. It's only when you act like an AP - grinding out days, weeks, years - at a losing game that you're certain to lose. Of course, what's more likely is that you'll never hit that streak, or even that you'll hit a massive streak against you.

And have you noticed that the people (like gr8player) who are convinced the "house edge" thing doesn't apply to them talk about it being the "casino line"? What a coincidence that the people who don't believe the obvious also think it's the casino that's lying...

Quote: treetopbuddy

I've been gambling for 30 plus years. My losses are around 500k, probably more if I were completely honest with myself. I consider the 15K per year in losses a nightmare not entertainment. Lost big playing blackjack, craps, roulette and finally Bac. I hang in there betting horses. I'm determined to get back every f***ing penny back. But how?



You won't. Accept you're not going to and move on. If you're gambling in the hope of doing so, quit gambling.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
treetopbuddy
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August 3rd, 2013 at 4:58:12 PM permalink
Quote: 24Bingo





You won't. Accept you're not going to and move on. If you're gambling in the hope of doing so, quit gambling.



Brilliant, why didn't I think of that.....I'm no longer going to gamble. Thanks 24 Bingo!
Each day is better than the next
EvenBob
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August 3rd, 2013 at 5:04:44 PM permalink
Quote: treetopbuddy

I've been gambling for 30 plus years. My losses are around 500k, probably more if I were completely honest with myself. I consider the 15K per year in losses a nightmare not entertainment. Lost big playing blackjack, craps, roulette and finally Bac. I hang in there betting horses. I'm determined to get back every f***ing penny back. But how?



You're living the casinos dream and the gamblers
nightmare. You'll never get it back in the casino
but they would never tell you that. With risk compounding
you're already doomed in a negative expectation game.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
onenickelmiracle
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August 3rd, 2013 at 5:42:53 PM permalink
Quote: treetopbuddy

Brilliant, why didn't I think of that.....I'm no longer going to gamble. Thanks 24 Bingo!


No, time for the martingale. Bet $500,000 on even money, then $1,000,000, then give up.
I am a robot.
mickeycrimm
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August 3rd, 2013 at 6:01:21 PM permalink
Quote: wroberson

Gambling is not fun.



You are on the right track. I would extend the statement to "Gambling is not fun if you are doing it right." Playing well within the means of my bankroll is extremely boring to me but it is the only way I do it. I never violate the rule. I have to live by the rule because I have no other income. I force myself to play machines in order to pay the bills and maintain the requisite bankroll. It's not fun at all the way I do it. But I always grind out the earn.

On the other hand, over betting your bankroll is very exciting because you stand the real risk of going broke. But for the great majority the excitement didn't last long....because they went broke. Consistently over betting your bankroll is a guaranteed way to go broke, even when you have an edge. And for compulsive gamblers no win is big enough. On any kind of a winning streak they will just keep gambling higher until they are broke.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
24Bingo
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August 3rd, 2013 at 6:12:42 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

You're living the casinos dream and the gamblers
nightmare. You'll never get it back in the casino
but they would never tell you that. With risk compounding
you're already doomed in a negative expectation game.



Or rather, they tell you that constantly. Some people just choose not to listen, some out of compulsion, some to craft a narrative.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
gpac1377
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August 3rd, 2013 at 7:01:42 PM permalink
I'm pretty sure I have no idea what you guys are talking about, but ...

Quote: mickeycrimm

... over betting your bankroll is very exciting because you stand the real risk of going broke.


You call it exciting, I call it nauseating. Win or lose, I never enjoy betting at levels that are potentially painful. I've done it occasionally when a lucrative promotion demanded it, but it's not my idea of a good time.

I enjoy gambling when the stakes are comfortable, and the odds are solidly in my favor, although often the enjoyment is neutralized by environmental annoyances.
"Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 feet per second, is a cow that has been dropped out of a helicopter."
EvenBob
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August 3rd, 2013 at 7:07:54 PM permalink
Quote: mickeycrimm

You are on the right track. I would extend the statement to "Gambling is not fun if you are doing it right." .



Good one, and very true. The less you know about
what you're involved in the better chance there is
of having 'fun'.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
MathExtremist
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August 3rd, 2013 at 7:42:20 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

its what the 'gambling is entertainment' myth is built on.


Gambling actually is entertainment for a majority of people. I know you're not one of them but you fall into one of the three categories of exceptions:
1) People who think they can beat the house but actually can't. They try to play the game for a profit. Maybe they lose, maybe they win, but they always worry about the edge. Worry and entertainment don't go together.
2) People who think they can beat the house and actually can. These folks are working. Work is not entertainment.
3) Problem gamblers. There is admittedly some overlap between this category and categories #1 and #2, but not all problem gamblers think they can beat the house. Some just keep playing because they are compelled to despite knowing they have the worst of it. Problem gambling is not entertainment, regardless of whether you have the edge over the house.

Of course, it's easy to see where you're coming from: you've admitted spending over 10,000 hours in casinos playing roulette despite overtly hating casinos and the gambling industry. I'd suggest that you're not really the right person to talk about how normal, healthy gamblers behave.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
EvenBob
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August 3rd, 2013 at 7:45:52 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist



Of course, it's easy to see where you're coming from: you've admitted spending over 10,000 hours in casinos playing roulette



LOL, you wish I'd said that. The 10,000 hours was
work OUTSIDE the casino, not in it. Nice try though.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
ahiromu
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August 3rd, 2013 at 8:48:07 PM permalink
I spend my whole life avoiding variance (steady job & index funds), gambling is my opportunity to live on the wild side. With enough of a bankroll, I'm able to not over bet while still being able to get off on the occasional big win.

Do I go in thinking I'm going to win? Of course. Do I walk away accepting that I lost? Yes. I'm a net loser and I my frame of mind hasn't changed over the years.
Its - Possessive; It's - "It is" / "It has"; There - Location; Their - Possessive; They're - "They are"
MathExtremist
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August 3rd, 2013 at 10:33:06 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

The 10,000 hours was work OUTSIDE the casino, not in it.


Exactly my point. If you've spent 10,000 hours thinking about roulette despite hating casinos, you're a very anomalous gambler. The thought of spending 10,000 hours contemplating a casino game would never even cross the mind of anyone in the vast majority of recreational gamblers, but you've done exactly that. As a result, you would seem a poor choice to opine on the motivations of that vast majority. Gambling can be fun if done responsibly and in moderation, but 10,000 hours is not moderation. It's the equivalent of five years' full-time work.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
EvenBob
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August 3rd, 2013 at 11:53:34 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

you're a very anomalous gambler.



Yup. Thanks..
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
michael99000
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August 4th, 2013 at 12:31:41 AM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Exactly my point. If you've spent 10,000 hours thinking about roulette despite hating casinos, you're a very anomalous gambler. The thought of spending 10,000 hours contemplating a casino game would never even cross the mind of anyone in the vast majority of recreational gamblers, but you've done exactly that. As a result, you would seem a poor choice to opine on the motivations of that vast majority. Gambling can be fun if done responsibly and in moderation, but 10,000 hours is not moderation. It's the equivalent of five years' full-time work.



What "thought" can possibly be put into playing roullette? It's an awful game, there's no possible AP angle, it's just a matter of how much and how quickly you'll lose your money.
As soon as I see in a thread that someone mentions roullette I immediately stop reading because, what's the point. There's nothing interesting that they can say.
treetopbuddy
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August 4th, 2013 at 4:07:26 AM permalink
Quote: onenickelmiracle

No, time for the martingale. Bet $500,000 on even money, then $1,000,000, then give up.



Are you assuming I lost both bets?
Each day is better than the next
treetopbuddy
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August 4th, 2013 at 4:34:45 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

LOL, you wish I'd said that. The 10,000 hours was
work OUTSIDE the casino, not in it. Nice try though.



Were you working with RGN's.....a wheel in your garage......honing physic abilities.....I must say EvenBob some of your posts appear to be head fakes. Yes?
Each day is better than the next
Mission146
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August 4th, 2013 at 6:27:04 AM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Exactly my point. If you've spent 10,000 hours thinking about roulette despite hating casinos, you're a very anomalous gambler. The thought of spending 10,000 hours contemplating a casino game would never even cross the mind of anyone in the vast majority of recreational gamblers, but you've done exactly that. As a result, you would seem a poor choice to opine on the motivations of that vast majority. Gambling can be fun if done responsibly and in moderation, but 10,000 hours is not moderation. It's the equivalent of five years' full-time work.



I clearly agree with MathExtremist.

Let me give you a look into the Crazy World of Mission146's Gambling Adventures!!!

They're not so crazy.

I gave up positive expectation slots a few months ago, because I could never find the, "Must hit by," slots at a reasonable enough level, and those precious few games at the casino that gave you an indicator of when the bonus must happen were rarely advantageous. With respect to the Progressives, I still maintain that Quick Hits (played at 100%+ EV) is the least likely to drain a Progressive Chaser because of the relative likelihood of hitting either five, six or seven Quick Hits. Furthermore, very little of the return is actually wrapped up in Eight or Nine Quick Hits, so you can even play in a way that discludes the EV from those, if you so choose.

I'm done with Positive Expectation Progressive Video Keno games because I'm simply not willing to lose the kind of money it takes to have a reasonable probability of winning. I still maintain that the Quick Hits can be a good play, but far more often than not, you'd scout the machines and not end up playing any of them because they weren't sufficiently +EV.

So, my main gambling consists of going into the parlors anywhere from two-four times a month and dumping the lofty sum of $5.00 into a straight negative expectation Video Keno game. I enjoy it, most wouldn't, not enough risk and all of that jazz. It's positive EV once the, "Comps," are factored in, in a sense. You get the free cappuccino and snacks there which would combine for $2.50-$3.00 anywhere else, so I'd say a player for such small stakes has the best of it overall....lol

I haven't been to the casino in quite some time, and the last time I was at one, I didn't technically gamble, just played in a free BJ Tournament. I didn't come in the cash, but I was really close!

What would I do if I were to go into the casino right now? The main problem with Table Games is that I seriously hate losing, so I almost never lose the full amount of my insubstantial buy-in. I might buy-in to a Craps Table for $100, playing $5.00 PL and taking Double Odds, I just play $1.00 Fire Bet until it's my turn to shoot. If I lose my first PL+Odds, then I'd be done, I really hate losing. Beyond that, if I win my first one, then I would usually quit after losing two PL's w/Odds consecutively, regardless of how far ahead I am at the time.

If my Craps ventures fail, then I might move to Roulette and buy-in for $20 in chips that I make worth $1.00. Buck on Black-29 and a buck on each of the corners, positive-progression too boring to even be worth explaining in full detail. If I lose the $20, then I'm done with that.

Let it Ride time, last resort. Whatever chips I have left, betting $5.00 per spot, and if I lose $20+ (It may be the mathematically right move to Let it Ride for a draw which could occasionally cause a loss greater than $20) I'm gone.

Like I said, it's pretty much impossible for me to lose my $100 buy-in. If I lose at all, it'd usually be between $40-$60.

Anyway, I find that much entertaining, and I haven't even done that for a matter of a couple months. What can I say? I hate losing, which is why I have ceased all of my +ER slots/VK play, couldn't stand those occasions when I lost. LOL

Yeah, I guess some people don't get the enjoyment unless they are playing against utter financial ruin v. its opposite. Not me. I just like to play. I think I'd even be done with Video Keno if I were to ever hit 10/10 numbers, just one time, I think that's my goal for VK, to see that happen just once. Although, I must say, I don't mind that occasional win that greatly exceeds my paltry $5.00 buy-in!
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
thecesspit
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August 4th, 2013 at 8:19:05 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

"Its entertainment" is a myth.



No, it's not.

Some people are clearly entertained by visiting the casino. You might say they are faking themselves, but it's not up to you to decide if people are genuinely or not entertained.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
pacomartin
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August 4th, 2013 at 11:53:04 AM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

"Gambler's conceit is the fallacy.. where a gambler believes they will be able to stop a risky behavior ...



Personally, I think that "Gambler's conceit" is not based on any mathematical reality. The real problem is the belief by most people that at some point they will be ahead ten times their bankroll, and they just need the willpower to quit at that point.

The GC misconception is closely related to the belief that a casino doesn't need a house edge. Since most people don't have the willpower to quit, the casino will still make money because most people will play until bankrupt looking for that ever elusive jackpot.

Advantage players know that if you have a 1% player advantage, there is a good, but not certain possibility of doubling a large amount of money. They are not under the insane belief that you can reliably multiply your bankroll by a factor of 10.
EvenBob
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August 4th, 2013 at 12:19:04 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

The real problem is the belief by most people that at some point they will be ahead ten times their bankroll,.



Not only be ahead, but stay ahead and keep
getting farther ahead. Casinos rely on a dumb
public base thats ignorant of the math and is
superstitious and unwilling to learn the truth.

I was always amazed at people I knew years
ago who would cut coupons to save 50 cents
on a jar of mayo, and research a big purchase
like a lawn mower or a furnace so they could
get the best deal, yet would drop $600 in a
casino without a thought. No research, no attempt
to learn what they were doing. And if I tried
to wise them up, they'd argue that I was wrong
or get really angry about it.

They liked being chumps was my conclusion, they
liked the myth that they could turn $100 into $10,000
and keep it going indefinitely.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
treetopbuddy
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August 4th, 2013 at 12:23:00 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

they
liked the myth that they could turn $100 into $10,000
and keep it going indefinitely.



You can't? Thanks for bursting my bubble.
Each day is better than the next
mickeycrimm
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August 4th, 2013 at 12:45:40 PM permalink
[q+I gave up positive expectation slots a few months ago, because I could never find the, "Must hit by," slots at a reasonable enough level....



The "must hit by" slots first appeared in Nevada when Mandalay Bay opened in 1999. The Mandalay Bay opening turned into a casino hustler's convention because the casino floor was full of advantage slots like the IGT Vision Series, Silicon Gaming's Odyssey machines that had multiple advantage games on them, and the William's advantage slots like X-Factor. There were also a half dozen linked banks of "Must hit by" slots, better known today as "mystery progressives." But back then Acres Gaming called the program Lucky Coin Bonus System.

None of us had ever seen this LCBS before so it was somewhat of a collaborative effort to figure them out. But it didn't take long. A typical bank would be about 20 machines linked together with three meters on them, like $50-$100, $100-$250, and $250-$500. This was the typical configuration for the quarter slots. The meters ran from 2% up to 5%. And these machines were not video line games. They were three reel slots with a two coin max bet. It kind of went like this: Take the $50-$100 meter for instance. Tourists might be playing 8 or 10 of the machines. When the number hit $92 the hustlers would swarm in on the bank, loading two machines and banging both machines at max speed. When the progressive hit the hustlers would all cash out leaving the tourists sitting there complaining about the lack of line pays. The bonus money had to come from somewhere....it came out of the line pays.

So we were making a little money off the mystery progressives and the Money Time like banks. And the tourists were complaining about the lack of line pays. Acres Gaming personnel started coming up and watching what was going on. They even set up their own table on the casino floor so they could sit and jaw jack about what we were doing. Mandalay Bay management must have not been to happy about the situation because two months after the opening they stripped all the LCBS out of the casino.

After that Mystery Progressives popped up in Nevada casinos here and there....and in all kinds of configurations. But the meters were slowed down to a crawl and the line pay percentages were jacked up. You got a play once in a blue moon. I have Peter Liston's book "Million Dollar Slots" on Kindle. He was in the right place at the right time....the theoretical of the game listed on the help screen, five figure mystery progressives, 5% and 6% meters. I've been in practically every casino in Nevada, and I was well networked with my hustler friends. Because of the slow meters, and low amounts on the jackpots, we never got the money making opportunity in Nevada that he had in Australia.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
EvenBob
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August 4th, 2013 at 1:23:47 PM permalink
"A gambler’s conceit that leads him to believe he can always stay one step ahead of the House is an example of irrational thinking, because in order for the gambler to stay ahead, he must continue playing, but because he continues playing, he increases the chances that he will meet his ruin. This is why the House generously lavishes enticing comps on the winning gambler to encourage him to keep coming back to play. The longer and more often he plays, the greater the chances he will lose it all back to the House. In fact, the chances he will ultimately be ruined rises exponentially the longer he plays."

http://imspirit.wordpress.com/2010/09/24/conceit-leads-to-ruin/

But this isn't predatory behavior, getting someone
to play till their ruined. Kraft and Nestle do the
same thing when they sell mayo and candy bars.

Sure they do..
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Paigowdan
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August 4th, 2013 at 2:17:10 PM permalink
Most players have the conceit that they could play cards or slots for an hour or two, have some wine, then go to dinner or a show with it all being entertainment, and without it being a major issue in any way. Bob has a problem with this kind of player, though most players fall into this "healthy play" category. Bob hates them.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
24Bingo
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August 4th, 2013 at 4:06:24 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

"A gambler’s conceit that leads him to believe he can always stay one step ahead of the House is an example of irrational thinking, because in order for the gambler to stay ahead, he must continue playing, but because he continues playing, he increases the chances that he will meet his ruin. This is why the House generously lavishes enticing comps on the winning gambler to encourage him to keep coming back to play. The longer and more often he plays, the greater the chances he will lose it all back to the House. In fact, the chances he will ultimately be ruined rises exponentially the longer he plays."

http://imspirit.wordpress.com/2010/09/24/conceit-leads-to-ruin/

But this isn't predatory behavior, getting someone
to play till their ruined. Kraft and Nestle do the
same thing when they sell mayo and candy bars.

Sure they do..



Pretty sure that's copied from an earlier version of the Wiki page, before they got rid of the editorializing. Not exactly authoritative.

As always, you're seeing from an individual perspective what's not really an individual enterprise. You'll notice the house comps both winners and losers - why, if this is why they give comps? They're not out to ruin anyone in particular - they just want your money as part of everyone else's. If you have more money to give them, great, they'll take it if you'll take the chance. If you don't, but you give it to them anyway, that's your problem. In the meantime, see how you do.

And yes, this is exactly what Kraft and Nestle do, except that their product will kill you for a lot less.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
EvenBob
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August 4th, 2013 at 4:42:41 PM permalink
Quote: 24Bingo

They're not out to ruin anyone in particular -



True. Like a wolf they'll eat a lamb just
as quickly as a wild turkey. They aren't
particular.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
gpac1377
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August 4th, 2013 at 5:00:36 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

True. Like a wolf they'll eat a lamb just
as quickly as a wild turkey. They aren't
particular.


Bob, I enjoy your posts. Particularly the early, funny ones.
"Scientists tell us that the fastest animal on earth, with a top speed of 120 feet per second, is a cow that has been dropped out of a helicopter."
AxelWolf
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August 4th, 2013 at 5:10:48 PM permalink
mickeycrimm

Unless you consider all AP's Hustlers then not everyone at MB were just hustlers although many were.

Are you sure there where a lot of, if any of the IGT Vision Series, X-Factors? If so where were they? I don't remember seeing them type of games when they first opened. for the life of me I don't remember any X-Factors at all, then again no one would be focusing on that kind of stuff. Also there was a must hit by that went into the high thousands 10k to 15k was the must hit by number I believe exact details are some what fuzzy.

You forgot to mention the mystery BMW giveaway or was it a Mercedes? The Mystery Jackpot machines/Must Hit By for the most part were separate from the bonus banking machines (the MoneyTime type machines or Hurricane Zone) there may have been one bank that had both if so the meter was very bad.

They did have the linked banking bonuses (Money Time type machines) on some video reels, they had an Entire room full of them they were .25 multi-line VERY LUCRATIVE But the bonus time came on far less often it took hours sometimes however, when did come on it was worth 3 or 4 hundred dollars betting max coins 2 machines. They also had $1 banking bonuses that would come on after the machines were played for about 15 min or so you were eligible as long as you were qualified (1 coin very slowly just before it was about to go into bonus mode) the more players the more often the bonus mode would come on, when it did the machines would all start flashing. I believe there were 3 to 5 different sections (I cant exactly remember) that had separate bonus pools they were all set up somewhat differently. Some sections had only 10 to 15 linked dollar machines. I remember they had a lot of Triple Double Red White and Blue machines. There were bonuses such as 3 to 10 times pays that lasted for about a minute or so (huge +EV). they also had free spin time where you got a number of free spins around 20 spins I think. at the end of the bonus rounds one player would be awarded around $20 bucks in free play as well. Over all the linked bonus banking machines were far more profitable for AP's then the Mystery JP machines.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
EvenBob
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August 4th, 2013 at 5:21:50 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

. Bob has a problem with this kind of player, though most players fall into this "healthy play" category. Bob hates them.



Poor Dan, he's fallen so completely for the casino
line and been sucked so far into their labyrinth
of deceit and lies that there is little hope of him
ever seeing the truth anymore. AP's are all cheats
and casinos are just like Baskin Robbins in their
business model.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
24Bingo
24Bingo
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August 4th, 2013 at 5:24:35 PM permalink
You know those looks people give you when you lecture them on the odds, Bob? Hint: those aren't because they don't believe you.

(And while we're at it, no one has been reading your posts on an 80x25 display for almost two decades now...)
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
EvenBob
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August 4th, 2013 at 5:33:02 PM permalink
Quote: 24Bingo

Hint: those aren't because they don't believe you.



Hint: I don't wise up chumps anymore, don't even ask.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
mickeycrimm
mickeycrimm
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August 4th, 2013 at 5:40:18 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

mickeycrimm

Unless you consider all AP's Hustlers then not everyone at MB were just hustlers although many were.

Are you sure there where a lot of, if any of the IGT Vision Series, X-Factors? If so where were they? I don't remember seeing them type of games when they first opened. for the life of me I don't remember any X-Factors at all, then again no one would be focusing on that kind of stuff. Also there was a must hit by that went into the high thousands 10k to 15k was the must hit by number I believe exact details are some what fuzzy.

You forgot to mention the mystery BMW giveaway or was it a Mercedes? The Mystery Jackpot machines/Must Hit By for the most part were separate from the bonus banking machines (the MoneyTime type machines or Hurricane Zone) there may have been one bank that had both if so the meter was very bad.

They did have the linked banking bonuses (Money Time type machines) on some video reels, they had an Entire room full of them they were .25 multi-line VERY LUCRATIVE But the bonus time came on far less often it took hours sometimes however, when did come on it was worth 3 or 4 hundred dollars betting max coins 2 machines. They also had $1 banking bonuses that would come on after the machines were played for about 15 min or so you were eligible as long as you were qualified (1 coin very slowly just before it was about to go into bonus mode) the more players the more often the bonus mode would come on, when it did the machines would all start flashing. I believe there were 3 to 5 different sections (I cant exactly remember) that had separate bonus pools they were all set up somewhat differently. Some sections had only 10 to 15 linked dollar machines. I remember they had a lot of Triple Double Red White and Blue machines. There were bonuses such as 3 to 10 times pays that lasted for about a minute or so (huge +EV). they also had free spin time where you got a number of free spins around 20 spins I think. at the end of the bonus rounds one player would be awarded around $20 bucks in free play as well. Over all the linked bonus banking machines were far more profitable for AP's then the Mystery JP machines.



By what you've written here I can tell you were a far more advanced player than I was in 1999. I didn't know some of the plays you've listed here. I was a smalltime, and new, AP operating off of a $5000 bankroll. But I played strictly for myself. I cut no deals with anyone. Possibly why I didn't get cut in on some of the information. The X-Factors were sure there. About 8 machines in the back of the casino. I remembered them because they were the worst playing X-Factors I've ever played. There were dollar Visions there too, although I don't remember how many.

The one thing I'm wondering is if you were part of the [removed by request-M146]. I met [removed by request-M146] in April/May 2002 at what I call the Pioneer Hustler's Convention in Laughlin. Among my group of friends we called anyone who had any gambling smarts a "hustler." So a hustler was defined by us as anyone from the most bottom feeding hustler to a Bob Dancer. It's just a slang term we used.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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August 4th, 2013 at 6:52:22 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Poor Dan, he's fallen so completely for the casino
line and been sucked so far into their labyrinth
of deceit and lies that there is little hope of him
ever seeing the truth anymore.


I see the deal and the truth just fine, that it is a fair and well-regulated industry worthy of its popularity (aside from a few Conspiracy Theory loons.)

Quote: EvenBob

AP's are all cheats...


Some are cheats; many are misguided, and all are self-seeking to some degree, often using a variation of the Robin Hood argument. Seems to be popular among some.

Quote: EvenBob

and casinos are just like Baskin Robbins in their
business model.


I thought they were like Kraft and Nestle.....
When you consider the variety of games, and the variety of their offerings of other outlets, yeah, they are a tad like BR.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
EvenBob
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August 4th, 2013 at 6:56:21 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

I see the deal and the truth just fine, that it is a fair and well-regulated industry .



Fair to who, Dan. Why, the industry of course. And
whats good for the industry in good for the workers
inside the industry. You have a successful casino
game, Dan. I would expect no less than you singing
the praises of the people who send you checks on
a regular basis.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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August 4th, 2013 at 7:06:43 PM permalink
No fair, to anyone who plays with reasonable expectations, and who is not a problem gambler or a burnt AP.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
EvenBob
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August 4th, 2013 at 7:40:11 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

No fair, to anyone who plays with reasonable expectations, and who is not a problem gambler or a burnt AP.



Shh, whats that sound? I think the mailman just
brought you another check from players who
thought they could beat EZ Paigow. Do you cash
the checks or stuff your pillow with them so you
can sleep soundly at night.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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August 4th, 2013 at 7:52:01 PM permalink
Wire transfer....
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
wroberson
wroberson
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August 4th, 2013 at 10:24:11 PM permalink
I've never made a bet because betting is fun. I've always made a bet to win. I can't imagine ever thinking to myself. I need some fun, I'll go the casino and pop a benny into the slot machine. For $100 I can think of so many other things I can buy that might even last 3-4 days.

Winning is fun. Gambling it not. Even If I say I'm going to win money, the act of gambling is not fun.
Buffering...
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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August 4th, 2013 at 11:09:36 PM permalink
There is a reason the members of this forum are called the one-percenters, and it isn't always a compliment.

For us, it can be because it's our professional work, and we get some insight from a few cutting edge members here, and to give advice, on some occasions.

For others here, there is a preoccupation with gambling and all things gaming, and often it isn't healthy and balanced - or fun.

Other people - the gambling civilians, for lack of a better term - can go to a casino for an hour or two or even an evening as an outing, not be in a hole or in regret for it, to be neither a problem nor an issue in their lives. For these people, gambling action itself is fun, win or lose, with never any need to chase needed life money into a slot machine or a table's drop box. These people don't even know that this forum exists, not that they'd ever join it, or add this to their lives if they did. Many players know basic strategy well, and know how to bet just fine.

They also instinctively know when to start, when to stop, and they walk into a casino for the experience to be rewarding, to be worthwhile, for it to be fun, and to walk out. They would say, "if gambling isn't fun, even if you win, then why do it?" There's a question.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Calder
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August 4th, 2013 at 11:44:10 PM permalink
Count me among Dan's Gambling Civilians; I gamble because it's fun.

Despite my civilian status, I have an appreciation for the math involved, and respect the knowledge of many of the board's regular posters.

I'm at the craps table 4-6 times per month, buy in for $150-$200 and have a great time for an hour or two on the pass line with single to double odds (never had more than triple), a come bet or two, or with a placed 6 & 8. Started playing about five years ago, and can tell you to the penny how much I've dropped over that span. I have a dedicated craps account that I marshal carefully, because if it drops to zero, I'm done gambling.

I love the cheering, the groaning, the emotional swings, and once in a while, I win a little something. Sometimes I'm alone, sometimes with a couple co-workers, but besides the excitement of the gambling, the people-watching is entertaining.

Judging by the some of the posts here, I've seen some of you guys at my poor little $5 table: the grumblers, pissed when you're losing, never satisfied when you're winning, seeing the box as The Enemy. On some days, the show can be as good as the game.

But when it stops being fun, I'm outta there.
mickeycrimm
mickeycrimm
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August 5th, 2013 at 1:18:13 AM permalink
Quote: Calder

Count me among Dan's Gambling Civilians; I gamble because it's fun.

Despite my civilian status, I have an appreciation for the math involved, and respect the knowledge of many of the board's regular posters.

I'm at the craps table 4-6 times per month, buy in for $150-$200 and have a great time for an hour or two on the pass line with single to double odds (never had more than triple), a come bet or two, or with a placed 6 & 8. Started playing about five years ago, and can tell you to the penny how much I've dropped over that span. I have a dedicated craps account that I marshal carefully, because if it drops to zero, I'm done gambling.

I love the cheering, the groaning, the emotional swings, and once in a while, I win a little something. Sometimes I'm alone, sometimes with a couple co-workers, but besides the excitement of the gambling, the people-watching is entertaining.

Judging by the some of the posts here, I've seen some of you guys at my poor little $5 table: the grumblers, pissed when you're losing, never satisfied when you're winning, seeing the box as The Enemy. On some days, the show can be as good as the game.

But when it stops being fun, I'm outta there.



Besides a gambler, I'm also a genealogist. I know where the hell I come from. I'm German, French, English, Welsh and Scottish. I'm also American, the best answer in the end. I know who the hell my ancestors were. From William Claiborne, the famous politician of the 1600's, my 10th great grandfather, to William Clark, of the Meriwhether and Clark Expodition. My first cousins 7X removed. And many more. I'm a hardcore American. And also a hardcore gambler. I learned it from them.
"Quit trying your luck and start trying your skill." Mickey Crimm
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