In the black

2013, started off on the wrong foot for me. I think from the very first round of blackjack I played. I actually don't remember if I lost the first hand or not, but I did lose the first session and that first session was part of a five figure loss on day 1 of 2013. This was actually my first 5 figure loss in over 16 months and I play nearly every day. Two more five figure losses would follow and by late march I was in the red over 30 grand.

This isn't the largest amount I have been in a hole, nor the longest negative run, but what made this particular period difficult is that it started on day 1 of the new year, when I start over with my books. Not every session was a loser, but every single session, every entry in my records, 881 of them (I play many short sessions), ended with a year-to-date total in the red. Until..this evening. :)

8 winning days in a row, including back to back 5 figure days, which is rare for me at my level of play and on the 105th day of 2013, the 882nd entry in my BJ records, the final column, year-to-date is in the black, by a whopping 2-digit figure. :) Still along way south of expectaion for the year, but if I squint just right, I think I can see expectation (where I should be based on amount of play) way off down the road in front of me. I'll get there eventually. It's a funny game, this game of blackjack that I play for a living.

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why is being positive "in the black"? why isnt it "in the green"? like red is bad and id say green is more opposite red than black.

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I can answer that! "Books" or ledgers were written with black ink for revenue/profits, red ink for losses. If they used "green ink" in those old days the expression might be different.

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Quote: kewlj

...but every single session, every entry in my records, 881 of them (I play many short sessions)...

Congratulations. I know what it is like to go through a period of successive losses when it seems nothing goes right.

Maybe the subject I am about to ask should be the start of a new thread, but I am responding to you, kewlj, since you mention your own detailed record-keeping.

I also keep records of my play broken down into individual sessions. It is not uncommon for me to have 4 or 5 different entries for one evening of play. My records are very detailed--including the obvious such as time (in 5 minute increments) with buy-ins and cash-outs with running totals of wins, losses and net and also individual casino and combined numbers. I keep year-to-date totals and I also do a month-end tally each month. I can tell immediately where I stand at any point broken down by casino as well as overall play.

Additionally, I generally include a short narrative comment (a sentence or two at most) as to what occurs during a particular session. For example, if I was up before the table turned and my cash-out was a loss, I may note how much I was ahead. Or I may note if it was a "stressful" session that required me to put out a lot more in increasing bets to stay even (using a negative progression).

I keep a separate spreadsheet of my bankroll showing money taken out during the course of the year. It is common for me to have on hand chips that are held over from previous sessions, so I keep track of cash on hand and chips on hand which make up my bankroll.

I also maintain another separate spreadsheet with exacting records of comps with individual categories such as hotel, food/beverage, golf, concerts, etc. (also by casino).

The question I've been wanting to ask is whether you, kewlj, and perhaps others also keep track of tips?

I do keep track of tips. I tip in green ($25) and I place the tip as a bet for the dealers. How frequently I tip depends, naturally, on how well the session is going. I keep track of how much I tip and also how much the dealers win and I enter that information as well with each entry--with running totals year-to-date, and again, divided by casino.

The reason for this is should be obvious. The tips reduce my net (take-home) profit. It is important to know where I stand with consideration given for the tips.

And in my view, tips cannot be (or should not be) avoided. Tips are part of the overhead or costs of doing business with the casino.

So where do you stand after looking back at your records, Jimbo? Do you have a consistent losing or winning trend? How much do you tip out in a year? How much do you receive in comps?

You don't have to give details but I'd bet interested to know what you've discovered from your records.

I keep track of tips in my head and can instantly recall that number at any time. :)

The advantage player normally does not tip.

It was expected you'd get ahead, Kewlj, no surprise here. I would
have been surprized if you didn't. The math doesn't lie, you're
playing a positive expectation game. The problem with BJ is your
edge is so razor thin you have to have a huge BR and nerves of
a tight rope walker to survive the down periods. Just keep going,
you're bound to prevail.

Quote: Jimbo

The question I've been wanting to ask is whether you, kewlj, and perhaps others also keep track of tips?

The reason for this is should be obvious. The tips reduce my net (take-home) profit. It is important to know where I stand with consideration given for the tips.

And in my view, tips cannot be (or should not be) avoided. Tips are part of the overhead or costs of doing business with the casino.

Like many BJ advantage players, I don't tip very much or very often, Jimbo. The edge from card counting is just way to slim to give much back. Because I play very short sessions this fact that I don't tip doesn't stand out quite as much. On those rare times that I do tip, it is just a couple $1 chips that I may have infront of me, resulting from a blackjack involving a $25 increment wager. I rarely color up at the table. I usually just walk with chips and my partner will cash in at a later time. But occasionally if I have had a big session and have a lot of chips I will color up, rather than walk with so many chips as that really pisses off the pit. So if I color up after a decent win and have that 'odd' $2.50 amount I will tip that. I am sure that is viewed as cheap but that's the way it is.

In addition, I am really against tipping because I resent that the casino industry has decided they can shirk their responsibility to pay their employees a decent living by pushing that responsibility off on the customers. The casino industry makes a good profit and should compensate their employees accordingly. I am sorry that the employees are caught up in the middle of that cheapness from the industry.

And finally, I know this comment, won't be a polular to our casino employee members, but I don't think dealers deserve a tip for just doing their job. They aren't providing a service tailored specificly to or for me, such as a waiter is. They aren't handling my luggage or doing something specific for me. They are simply doing their job. The tip originated as a thank you gesture for service above and beyond the normal duties of the job. I am not asking for nor expecting any such treatment.

Now on this note, some AP's use a tips as a method to 'bribe' the dealer into giving something a little extra that he otherwise wouldn't, like deeper penetration. I don't engage in that. Technically such an effort is collusion and is a crime. Now on this scale, there is no chance or extremely little chance that anything can or will come from it, but I always say, I play blackjack by the rules and win the game fairly by the rules the house has set up. I am not going to attempt to bride the employee to not follow those rules.

Quote: Jimbo

Congratulations.

Additionally, I generally include a short narrative comment (a sentence or two at most) as to what occurs during a particular session.

A also wanted to comment on this quote. My financial books are limited to the financial info from my play. I have a second journal where I record comments about what took place during that play session, mostly referring to heat related issues and noting specific people involved. This second journal is kept by casino for easy reference when that particular casino is again in play. At the start of the day before I head out, I can easily check without sorting through pages of back records, and make a note of any issues that I had at this location on prior play and any specific people that I may want to keep an eye out for. :) It is part of my daily preparation.

Glad you're back in the black, dude! Is this just your blackjack play, or does it also take into account your other AP activities and your substantial positive variance at sports betting? In a past post you mentioned both of those 2 ventures were going better this year, but it sounds like in this update you are specifically referring to blackjack.

Quote: kewlj

A also wanted to comment on this quote. My financial books are limited to the financial info from my play. I have a second journal where I record comments about what took place during that play session, mostly referring to heat related issues and noting specific people involved. This second journal is kept by casino for easy reference when that particular casino is again in play. At the start of the day before I head out, I can easily check without sorting through pages of back records, and make a note of any issues that I had at this location on prior play and any specific people that I may want to keep an eye out for. :) It is part of my daily preparation.

That's actually a pretty good idea...I have just been keeping notes along with the monetary amounts in my spreadsheet (like Jimbo), but I'm going to give some consideration to keeping a separate journal like you.

Quote: Jimbo

The question I've been wanting to ask is whether you, kewlj, and perhaps others also keep track of tips?

I do keep track of tips. I tip in green ($25) and I place the tip as a bet for the dealers. How frequently I tip depends, naturally, on how well the session is going. I keep track of how much I tip and also how much the dealers win and I enter that information as well with each entry--with running totals year-to-date, and again, divided by casino.

The reason for this is should be obvious. The tips reduce my net (take-home) profit. It is important to know where I stand with consideration given for the tips.

I have a column in my spreadsheet for tokes, but my net win already takes them into account. E.g., if I buy-in for $500, lose everything but $5, and leave that last $5 for the boys, my spreadsheet will show a $500 buy in, $0 cash out for a net loss of $500, and a $5 toke (known to be included in the loss).

From the perspective of the tax man, I'm almost positive this is wrong. The toke is a voluntary gift given from you to the dealer and does not qualify as a deduction along with your gambling losses. If my toke total were larger, I would feel like I were cheating, but I rarely tip so it wouldn't have made a big difference on my 2012 taxes.

I'm guessing the tax liability was your main question...other than that, your gambling net results are between you and your romantic partner, so I recommend NOT including tips in that report, so as to make your losses look smaller :).

Quote: kewlj

Like many BJ advantage players, I don't tip very much or very often, Jimbo. The edge from card counting is just way to slim to give much back.

Quote: DeMango

The advantage player normally does not tip.

Thanks for your replies to a question that I've been curious about among APs in a game where it is possible to have a mathematical edge such as blackjack--but where the edge is very small indeed.

Upon subsequent searching this Forum, I was not surprised to discover the subject of tipping has been covered several times before, and this specific question has probably been addressed. And I understand the view of kewlj in generally not wanting to tip as a matter of principle. This reminds me of the wonderful scene at the diner from the movie Reservoir Dogs. Nevertheless...

I agree APs are operating on a thin margin of expected profitability. If you calculate your theoretical win per hour, disregarding variance and mistakes (average bet x average hands x mathematical edge), and apply a modest toke percentage, then the tip will not be much. Even tipping one green chip per hour may very well wipe out a considerable amount of the AP's expected win amount and lower his expected percentage (depending of course on the size of the average bet).

But let's assume for argument sake that your net win is more than $60,000 in a year (or pick an even higher number) and you are comped over $40,000 the same year. Do you still feel as strongly that only tipping a modest amount to the dealers is acceptable in consideration of how much you've taken away from the casino?

Does it make a difference if you routinely play at a relatively small number of casinos and you frequently play with the same dealers?

I am not passing judgment here. I am merely interested in the prevailing view of APs.

By the way, I agree that tips are not--and should not be--"bribes" for favorable play. Among the many laughable and astounding things that I have read by the so-called experts who have authored books on gaming is that a person should tip primarily or only in order to induce the dealer to make mistakes in his favor or to receive some other benefit that is not in accordance with the rules of play. And people believe that?!

Quote: AcesAndEights

Glad you're back in the black, dude! Is this just your blackjack play, or does it also take into account your other AP activities and your substantial positive variance at sports betting? In a past post you mentioned both of those 2 ventures were going better this year, but it sounds like in this update you are specifically referring to blackjack.

You are correct. This thread was referring specifically to my BJ results. I am on the plus side in my other activites, mainly bonus chasing as I do not include my sportsbetting activities among my AP revenue. Sportsbetting is strictly entertainment for me and although I did extremly well this year, I don't count my sportbetting activities as plus EV, longterm. (I only wager on football and college basketball, so I am done until fall anyway).

In addition, I have a playing partner that I don't often talk about. He now handles much of my bonus chasing as that aspect was beginning to take up too much of my time. We also partner in blackjack, playing off the same bankroll. But, I do play substantially more than him by at least a 3-1 ration, so at the end of the year my results are going to have a greater influence on our partnership than his. My BJ results were kind of dragging the whole operation down, so now with my BJ at least back to zero, we are substantially in the black overall when including his BJ win and our combined bonus efforts.

Quote: kewlj

You are correct. This thread was referring specifically to my BJ results. I am on the plus side in my other activites, mainly bonus chasing as I do not include my sportsbetting activities among my AP revenue. Sportsbetting is strictly entertainment for me and although I did extremly well this year, I don't count my sportbetting activities as plus EV, longterm. (I only wager on football and college basketball, so I am done until fall anyway).

That's definitely a nice little bonus. As I mention frequently because I am intolerable, I was up on craps last year and 2011, but I have no delusions of grandeur that I can beat the game long-term. It's fun and it's nice when you get that win; it sounds like you have the same approach to sport betting. Although at least you have the potential to influence your sports betting results with good handicapping.

Quote: kewlj

In addition, I have a playing partner that I don't often talk about. He now handles much of my bonus chasing as that aspect was beginning to take up too much of my time. We also partner in blackjack, playing off the same bankroll. But, I do play substantially more than him by at least a 3-1 ration, so at the end of the year my results are going to have a greater influence on our partnership than his. My BJ results were kind of dragging the whole operation down, so now with my BJ at least back to zero, we are substantially in the black overall when including his BJ win and our combined bonus efforts.

Nice. If you don't mind me asking, how does your blackjack partnership work? Do you share a common bankroll to enable a bigger unit, but EMFH when it comes to actual playing results? Or do you combine playing results and split profit (or loss) at the end of the year based on play time?

I ask because while I have never been part of a team or played with a partner, I would like to explore the possibility in the future, and it would be useful to know how more experienced people than I do it :).

Quote: AcesAndEights

Nice. If you don't mind me asking, how does your blackjack partnership work? Do you share a common bankroll to enable a bigger unit, but EMFH when it comes to actual playing results? Or do you combine playing results and split profit (or loss) at the end of the year based on play time?

I ask because while I have never been part of a team or played with a partner, I would like to explore the possibility in the future, and it would be useful to know how more experienced people than I do it :).

I am not the one to ask as I am very new to this partnership concept. I have never partnered before always being a solo player. I always said, I want to answer to no one and be responsible to no one. I actually turned down a couple team play opportunities that may have been pretty benificial in the past.

At a little bit of risk, I will share some details of my situation. A dear freind who I resided with back in Philadelphia, followed me to Vegas a year after I relocated (borderline stalking...lol) After I sold my condo, last spring, we moved in together on a temporary basis, while I am in the market to purchase a new home. At that time, I partnered with him on only the bonus chasing aspect of my AP play. This mostly consists of playing a predetermined amount of video poker as close to break even as possible, in which case the disproportionately high bounce back mailer offers that the local type casinos here in vegas offer (competeing with each other) push the whole experience into positive EV territory. Also, we seekout and exploit matchplay and winchip and other such oppertunities as much as possible. These bonus activites were taking up too much of my time, so I basically pushed much of it off on him.

Now at this time, his blackjack activities consisted of occasional play at low limit red chip level. He is 20 years my senior with limited funds and income. He also has a back condition that doesn't allow him to play at the tables very long. That is a tough level to play at, as the games are inferior by rules and crowded conditions. Hard to make any real money at that level. So I wanted to elevate his game and worked with him on improving his play and decided to elevate his play level by allowing him to play off my BR. Note: this is a very dangerous move for a solo player who's carreer is tied to BR, but this is a very dear long-time friend. At this point it isn't much of a stretch to partner, playing separately, but off the same BR and combining results at years end. I made him contribute as much as he could to our BR, so that he is invested. The tail end of last year, which happened to be my best year as an AP, went very smoothly as we were both winning. But this year, while I was always comfortable with where I/we were at, and had been through the rollercoaster ride and emerged on the positive side enough times to know, this episode would be no different. He, being new to the experinece was losing faith in me and the whole program. I don't want to say he was ready to jump ship, but I think he was eyeing the lifeboats...lol.

So, this rebound from my bad start happened at a very good time. As for the handling of a team situation, even a small partnership, I am really ill-prepared for that and feeling my way as we go. I am sure the informal way I am doing so, is not really cutting the mustard.

Quote: kewlj

2013, started off on the wrong foot for me. I think from the very first round of blackjack I played. I actually don't remember if I lost the first hand or not, but I did lose the first session and that first session was part of a five figure loss on day 1 of 2013. This was actually my first 5 figure loss in over 16 months and I play nearly every day. Two more five figure losses would follow and by late march I was in the red over 30 grand.

This isn't the largest amount I have been in a hole, nor the longest negative run, but what made this particular period difficult is that it started on day 1 of the new year, when I start over with my books. Not every session was a loser, but every single session, every entry in my records, 881 of them (I play many short sessions), ended with a year-to-date total in the red. Until..this evening. :)

8 winning days in a row, including back to back 5 figure days, which is rare for me at my level of play and on the 105th day of 2013, the 882nd entry in my BJ records, the final column, year-to-date is in the black, by a whopping 2-digit figure. :) Still along way south of expectaion for the year, but if I squint just right, I think I can see expectation (where I should be based on amount of play) way off down the road in front of me. I'll get there eventually. It's a funny game, this game of blackjack that I play for a living.

kewlj, congrats on getting back into the black. I know you are one of the more serious players on here and it's good to hear that it's starting to payoff for you after a rough start to 2103. Keep it up.

Quote: rudeboyoi

why is being positive "in the black"? why isnt it "in the green"? like red is bad and id say green is more opposite red than black.

As others have said...black ink for positive numbers and red for negative. The reason they didn't use green ink, is probably because accounting ledgers were usually printed on green paper back before everything was computerized. Also as I'm sure most people know the shopping day after Thanksgiving is called "black Friday" because that's when retailers traditionally went into the black for the year.

Cool, thanks for sharing. Obviously, any responses to my inquiries are at your own discretion :).

Congrats on the turnaround! Hope it keeps up for you!

Quote: teddys

So where do you stand after looking back at your records, Jimbo? Do you have a consistent losing or winning trend? How much do you tip out in a year? How much do you receive in comps?

I've been hesitant to respond with specifics.

I am up considerably. Keep in mind, I play with somewhat higher stakes. I do not consider myself a "high-roller" though some others have said so. It is all relative in my view.

2012 was a typical year for me with a very nice net profit. I've had better years when I played a little more and I've had a few years when my net was a little lower--again, basically due to playing less. I know some people may doubt this, but I've been a consistent winner. (Among other things, my tax returns prove it.) There are periods when I've had successive losing sessions that have eaten into my bankroll (I call it getting "spanked") but with persistence, discipline, and faith with how I play, it has worked out in the end--much like kewlj who started this thread.

My comps in 2012 were higher than in other years--for a couple of reasons. One, there were a couple of occasions when my children and grandchildren joined me at a resort casino for several days each time and they all had suites that were comped as well as meals. I had a few more trips to Las Vegas than in some other years and again, those trips included full RFB as well as some transportation.

I recognize that on paper my comps may be a little overstated for the reason that I put in the public or "rack" rate for the rooms. So if the suite is normally $425 a night, then that is what is in my comp record--even though that same suite may have a lower "casino" rate. Same as with golf or with a concert. I put in the amount that someone from the public would pay as opposed to a discounted casino rate.

As I mentioned in a previous post, my comp record is broken down by casino and also by category--such as room, food, golf, concerts, clothing, etc. I also keep a record of what I receive in comps that benefit someone other than my wife or me. So if a friend or family member is with me and they receive a room or a round of golf with me, then the value of that comp is in my total but I can also quickly tell how much of that total is for someone else.

In 2012, my total comps were slightly more than $42,000.

As for my tips, this is something I've been struggling with and I expect some people may be critical. Actually, I am disclosing this because I would not mind some feedback.

To begin with, my tip record only includes what I tip in the casino to the dealers. It does not include tips in the hotel and restaurants or to servers and valets separate from the casino. (I don't drink while I am playing, so I am not tipping chips to the cocktail waitress.) Since I am being comped, then I feel I can and should tip very well to the non-casino staff who take care of me. I rationalize that I am not paying for the room or meal, so why shouldn't I tip at least 25% (or more) and leave $10 per night for housekeeping.

Another thing to keep in mind about my tips is that I frequently play at the same casinos where I am well known by the staff and dealers and pit supervisors. Not only do they know my name and my wife's name (who is not a player but who may accompany me in the casino on occasion), they also tell me they know my player's card number without it being produced. As a result, I tip perhaps a little more--knowing that I am going to be playing with the same dealers on a regular basis in the future.

But I also tip in Vegas with dealers who may not remember me from previous occasions--though I tip well, I admit I may not tip as much as I do with my regular "home" casinos.

I have discussed tipping with some of the dealers over the years. Based on these conversations, I've concluded that dealers generally would prefer to have the tip placed as a bet rather than put directly in the tip box--they want to play with me. Secondly, if I am having a losing session, they understand if I do not tip or if I do not tip very much. Thirdly, the dealers much prefer my tips being bet on the line where they have a much better chance of winning as opposed to a proposition tip bet that is a much longer shot (even though it may pay more).

I recognize a contrary view is that even if I am losing, the dealers are still working just as hard, and I should tip just as much as I do in a winning session. Nevertheless, my tips are reflective as to whether I am up or down in the session. (And like many other players, I may be up early and have tipped well, but then be down at the end of the session--so that the dealers end up better than me.)

I am a Don't Player and I tip in green on the don't line next to my own flat bet. [I do not lay odds on dealers bet (though I do lay odds on my own bet) since I am putting more money out than what is received on the odds bets. If I were to ever play and tip from the Do side, I'd most likely include an odds bet for the dealers.] There is no hard and fast rule as to how often I tip. Depends on how things are going. I've had sessions where I've been up $3,000 to $4,000 in less than an hour and I have tipped several times and other occasions when I am down right away and struggling to get back even or ahead where I may not tip at all over a period of a couple of hours.

I also do not tip more if the dealers are not winning on their tip bets. I feel if they want to play with me, then they can live or die with the dice the same as me. One evening I tipped 17 times ($425) for the dealers and they did not win a single bet. Just because I had a winning session that night, I did not try to make up for it with the dealers. Even though my chips did not get into their tip box, I still tipped for them.

In 2012, I tipped $6,325 and the dealers won $6,350. I find this interesting, but not surprising, that because of the way I tip on the line only, the tips won are almost exactly the same as what I bet for the dealers.

I know that figure may not mean much without knowing how many hours I played in 2012 or what my net win was in 2012.

There have been other threads on tipping and I intend to go back and review some of those threads to learn views of other people regarding tipping. It is enlightening that APs generally do not tip very much (if at all) due to the slim player advantage. This is something I, too, have struggled with.

However, the most compelling reason for my tipping is that I will face these same dealers many, many times throughout the year, and I simply am not comfortable in shorting them. Most importantly, I also receive wonderful and attentive service.

Quote: Jimbo

I am up considerably. Keep in mind, I play with somewhat higher stakes. I do not consider myself a "high-roller" though some others have said so. It is all relative in my view.

...

In 2012, my total comps were slightly more than $42,000.

...

In 2012, I tipped $6,325 and the dealers won $6,350. I find this interesting, but not surprising, that because of the way I tip on the line only, the tips won are almost exactly the same as what I bet for the dealers.

Holy bejeezus. Yes, you are a high roller. Don't try to deny it. You tipped almost as much as my total net gambling win last year!

Also, is craps your only game? How have you managed to pull down a net win year after year? I insufferably mention that I'm a lifetime winner at craps, but I play waaaaay less than you. If it's just good variance, then we know who to blame for all of the negative variance...(jokes, jokes.)

Quote: AcesAndEights

Also, is craps your only game? How have you managed to pull down a net win year after year?

I do play some blackjack--strict and accurate basic strategy. I enjoy blackjack. But it makes up a very small percentage of my play. (One of the pit supervisors in high-limit who knows me well from the craps table was shocked a couple of months ago when I sat down at a BJ table where she was working. She said she had never seen me play BJ before. I actually won $2,300 in about 45 minutes with her watching me and she commented she was not surprised with how well I played.)

I have been giving consideration to pursue card counting, but so far I have not convinced myself that the effort is worth it. I have also been interested in studying Video Poker so as to play it strictly by the book (or computer).

I joke that I play BJ when I want less stress--since I do put out a lot of money on the craps table (though my average BJ bet is not small--it is less than what I may have cumulatively on the craps table).

But I generally get frustrated at the BJ table when I continually lose on what should be "winning hands." I often have remarked that I would own the casino if I could just win on 20s!?

One of the reasons I am on the Forum is to examine more thoroughly how and why I've been able to win in craps over the long-term on a negative expectation game--and maybe communicate with other experienced players to exchange ideas.

I am a Don't Player. I use a negative progression such that I increase bets when I lose existing bets. My winning sessions far outnumber my losing sessions--but as anyone who has studied this game, a single hot shooter can conceivably take me down to the extent that the loss will wipe out many of my winning sessions.

I have thankfully been able to control the losing sessions in order to preserve the net wins over the long-term. But my goal is to even better control the inevitable losing session when I run up against that hot shooter.

I never try to judge the table and switch sides to the Do side. The Don't side has been very good to me. I either play the Don't side or I don't play at all.

It does take a considerable bankroll. And much discipline. Much discipline.

I assure you that I have studied the mathematics of craps very, very closely and I have run many different simulations and I have given much thought to my play. I know there is no such thing as a "system." Nevertheless, pit bosses and long-time dealers have said many times about my play that I have "figured it out."

Quote: AcesAndEights

I was going to start a new thread about my craps "philosophy" but figured I might as well just add my thoughts here.

I just saw an earlier post of yours (from Jan. 5, 2012) in a different thread (whether it is possible to leave the craps table a winner) regarding your own craps play.

You and I think alike!

I approach it with, perhaps, more aggression and continue to increase my flats and lay odds when numbers are repeated.