Twirdman
Twirdman
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April 5th, 2014 at 3:27:03 PM permalink
Quote: timberjim

People who were born in other countries and are here without ID should vote? Twirdman slipped up and let his real agenda out --LET ILLEGALS VOTE!



You realize not all people born overseas are illegal right? For instance there was a naval base on the Philippines till the mid 80s so somehow anyone born there should be rendered unable to vote because they are foreigners even though they may be US citizens by virtue of their father/mother being a US citizen who happens to be in the military. Same for bases in Japan, Germany, or around the world.

Or say a set of parents were just on vacation overseas and gave birth to a child. The parents are US citizens so so is the kid.
AZDuffman
AZDuffman
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April 5th, 2014 at 3:31:42 PM permalink
Quote: Twirdman

And then they stopped driving and stop working hence their ID expired. Or they moved for a new job and never bothered to get a license since it is a hassle. Especially in some states like Florida where presenting your old ID is not sufficient to get a new ID. So I came from California and have no ID here from the state. I could get one since I did have my birth certificate and an expired passport but haven't bothered since my California ID will be valid for another 2 years and I don't do any kind of driving anyway. But say I didn't have my original birth certificate I would have to request it from Washington state since that is where I was born.



Then request it and get an ID. How hard can that be?

Quote:

Umm not everyone born in another country wasn't a US citizen. For instance my brother. So all he has is a certificate of life birth which is not enough to get an ID in Florida. So again getting an ID could be difficult.



Well, he will have a problem then since he cannot drive, get a legal job, drink, open a bank account, buy sudafed, fly on an airplane, or any of dozens of other things, one of which should be vote. How does he expect to survive?i

I had a boss once was born in Haiti where his dad was an expatriate. Guess what? He had ID! When he moved from NJ to NY he got a new ID. When he moved from NY to another state (IN IIRC) he got a new ID! WOW!

Quote:

So no not everyone has a valid ID or could easily get one. Also having an ID at some point in history does not mean you always have it since it can easily expire and they may have no reason to replace it.



Incorrect, everyone has or can easily get one. It just means leaving your house and putting in some effort, god forbid.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
Twirdman
Twirdman
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April 5th, 2014 at 3:39:42 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

Then request it and get an ID. How hard can that be?



Well, he will have a problem then since he cannot drive, get a legal job, drink, open a bank account, buy sudafed, fly on an airplane, or any of dozens of other things, one of which should be vote. How does he expect to survive?



Incorrect, everyone has or can easily get one. It just means leaving your house and putting in some effort, god forbid.



The second one simple already have a job when you move same with a bank account and live in a state with public transportation or walk everywhere. Plenty of people don't have licenses the numbers have already been released and the argument from incredulity is a logical fallacy. Just because you don't see how someone could have problem getting a license or how someone may not already have a license does not mean these things don't exist.

Now again you still haven't shown any effect that voter fraud has had on an election so what purpose do these laws have other than disenfranchising people. Almost all the cases of fraud you have pointed out would not be stopped by a voter ID so can you at least show some cases that would be prevented and preferably some nice hard numbers rather than I know in my heart people are cheating.

Feelings are meaningless without some numbers to back it up.
rxwine
rxwine
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April 5th, 2014 at 3:47:34 PM permalink
Quote: Twirdman

Now again you still haven't shown any effect that voter fraud has had on an election so what purpose do these laws have other than disenfranchising people. .



Likewise, you can always complain security for shoplifting is never enough, as shoplifting continues somewhere. So, no matter what is done, pointing to fraud somewhere is always an excuse for these laws.

That's not enough. They need to show how it is changing elections, how often and so on. Not just pointing there are irregularities. There will likely always be irregularities no matter what.
i
Just saying fraud exists, is not an argument for doing something.
The Hall of Unverified Claims is a vast place with many shelves.
rxwine
rxwine
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April 5th, 2014 at 3:52:48 PM permalink
In fact if the argument holds that any discrepancy is cause to do something, you can apply it almost everywhere, even if a problem is nearly non-existent. One can almost always find problems. You need to know how much effect a problem has.
The Hall of Unverified Claims is a vast place with many shelves.
timberjim
timberjim
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April 5th, 2014 at 4:04:32 PM permalink
Quote: Twirdman

You realize not all people born overseas are illegal right? For instance there was a naval base on the Philippines till the mid 80s so somehow anyone born there should be rendered unable to vote because they are foreigners even though they may be US citizens by virtue of their father/mother being a US citizen who happens to be in the military. Same for bases in Japan, Germany, or around the world.

Or say a set of parents were just on vacation overseas and gave birth to a child. The parents are US citizens so so is the kid.



You keep pulling examples out of thin air. Please supply a list of eligible voters who cannot easily get ID. Real people, not what ifs. You know the liberals would proudly parade these people in front of the press if they actually existed.
beachbumbabs
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beachbumbabs
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April 5th, 2014 at 4:34:41 PM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

If they drive they have ID, if they worked they have ID, there is no way they made it through life without ID.

Those born in other countries have a naturalization certificate, which is just as good as a birth certificate, for getting ID.

Everyone has or can get ID.



You're making an awful lot of assumptions and generalizations with these statements. For example, women over about 60 are a disproportionately large group affected by this. Many women that age and older raised the kids, didn't work, didn't drive. That's just how families were. Lots of people never owned a car. There is also a great disparity in when and what individual states issued for birth certificates, for drivers' licenses, and when they transitioned from non-photo to photo ID. And until VERY recently, you could vote with nothing more than a non-photo link to your address, like a utility bill, or a person from your neighborhood identifying you as a resident (which was originally why they recruited poll workers from the precinct where they lived, to help ID people).

No doubt the world has changed, and modern life almost requires an ID. But we are still in a transition period, and people who never needed a gov't issued ID before are going to be slow to adapt. Related to this, there are a lot of very legitimate ID's that are NOT being accepted, depending on the state; for example, a student ID issued by an accredited university should be acceptable, but in many states, it's not. A driver's license with an old address, even with proof you've moved, can be turned down. A local work ID, a sworn affidavit with utilities in someone's name, lots of other ways that used to be righteous are no longer valid, due mostly to the paranoia caused by exaggerated tales of fraud, and the agendas of those writing the laws in recent years.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
Twirdman
Twirdman
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April 5th, 2014 at 4:42:10 PM permalink
Quote: timberjim

You keep pulling examples out of thin air. Please supply a list of eligible voters who cannot easily get ID. Real people, not what ifs. You know the liberals would proudly parade these people in front of the press if they actually existed.



I mentioned very specifically that me and my brother both had problems getting ID in Florida and while we both could it was not a simple matter and they really serve no purpose for either of us right now.
SanchoPanza
SanchoPanza
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April 5th, 2014 at 8:19:07 PM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

Women over about 60 are a disproportionately large group affected by this. Many women that age and older raised the kids, didn't work, didn't drive. That's just how families were. Lots of people never owned a car.

How do they carry out the activities of life like food shopping, health care, doctors' visits and the like?
Quote: beachbumbabs

People who never needed a gov't issued ID before are going to be slow to adapt.

That was the rationale in the 90's for opposing the requirement as part of welfare reform. It turned out to have no ill effects and served only to eliminate the one-third of recipients who were fakers.
Quote: beachbumbabs


A student ID issued by an accredited university should be acceptable, but in many states, it's not.

Anybody involved with a bar near a campus will be amused by this.
endermike
endermike
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April 5th, 2014 at 8:49:50 PM permalink
Quote: SanchoPanza

Anybody involved with a bar near a campus will be amused by this.

Except when you consider you only need to be 18 to vote, not 21.

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