dealer mistakes
Poll
 | 43 votes (67.18%) | ||
| | 21 votes (32.81%) |
64 members have voted
Quote: FourFiveFaceI got incorrectly paid $100 for a full house in Texas Hold 'Em Bonus. I was playing the progressive bet (which I don't think is covered on Wizard of Odds actually). Basically, you get a bonus if you flop a flush or better. I made a full house on the turn, which shouldn't have netted me the bonus, but the dealer gave it too me anyways. Never got "caught", so either the eye in the sky wasn't paying attention, or they didn't know the rules either.
I'm confused.
A Full House beats a Flush, so if the bonus is for a Flush or better, the hand qualified by being better than a Flush.
Am I missing something?
Quote: DJTeddyBearI'm confused.
A Full House beats a Flush, so if the bonus is for a Flush or better, the hand qualified by being better than a Flush.
Am I missing something?
I thought exactly the same thing. Sounds like the OP got paid correctly.
Quote: vendman1I thought exactly the same thing. Sounds like the OP got paid correctly.
No, the progressive only pays if you flop the hand. He made it on the turn. I'm sure the rest of his hand was paid properly. He should have lost the progressive bet, but was paid $100 instead.
Thanks for the clarification.
Quote: FourFiveFace...The only time I was asked to repay an incorrect payout was at THB (at a different casino though). There's a lot of misread boards in this game, and I got $50 when I was actually beat (or pushed, can't quite remember). A good 10-15 minutes later, someone from the back came to me at the table and told me the error and asked for the money back. I didn't make a fuss; I knew I was wrongly paid. I generally fall into the camp that it's the onus on the casino to fix their mistakes.
True. Two things I do in this situation of dealer errors are:
1. Immediately return the money back if I KNOW I was wrongly paid, no problem. Not mine if I didn't win it or earn it, so I have no problem being separated from it, trying to be first to speak in that situation, "Here you go, I didn't win it." I don't want money received in error, I won't try to keep it, and I don't want any scenes stemming from it. I alerted the dealer and returned an incorrect pay last night at Fiesta Henderson playing UTH. I feel the onus is on me - when I honestly know the game result. And you're right, there are a lot of misread boards on THB and UTH. Few dealers have a 100% poker eye.
2. And with the view that the onus is on the house to correct their mistakes, even if seen by players, well, this simply means the casino will ask for it back once it's caught, anyway. If the onus is on them, they may track you down.
I've been paid 2-1 on a Banker win, don't know why, didn't ask.
The best dealers mistakes happened in the UK some years back. They used to have had this silly policy that if the dealer draws an unnecessary card on the Punto table, it was their mistake and advantage goes to the player with the extra card being pulled back for the next cue.
So one night, I'm playing solo in an automatic groove, put the dealer into a rhythm, then I paused, the dealer continues pulling the cards, three of them!!! The punto side has drawn a 10 faced card and an 8, the banco is sitting on 6. I tell the dealer there is no bet on the table, so they pull the cards back as according to their strange policy. Down-under it would a non-betting hand, which I am used too and what most would expect.
Who am I to argue!!! So I ramp up my bet 10 fold and stick it on the punto, it's sitting on a N8, Banco is on 6, next card drawn, a bloody 3, unbelievable. I was livid, absolutely fuming, if it wasn't for that dealer mistake, I would not have gone anywhere near that bet amount, anger is a bit of an understatement.
Few months later in the same casino, same thing happens. I'm betting mechanically like a robot, I pause, dealer continues <grin>, this time I wait until the entire hand is dealt. So I duly inform the female dealer there was no bet on the table and I want the cards pulled back according to their rules. I argued with management for about 10 mins, with me reminding them of what happened previously, they had a long pre-fab about it, said they would have to consult their operations manual???? yeah okay.
After holding the game up for 30 minutes (nobody playing except me), they agreed, then after three attempts at putting the card back in the order as which they came out, yes was loving every minute of it. So I re-buyin and bet the table max which was only £1k, what a shame.
I go the cage and the manager comes over and asks if I'm leaving, I told him I was only getting chips off the table, didn't want to be eyed up by the riff-raff as a potential mark. Few days later I went to their sister casino, the looks I received, anybody would think I had committed mass murder. It's was their stupid and naive rules which I took advantage of, since then they have seen sense and if an extra card is drawn it results in a non-betting hand. In fact while playing solo at this other casino they make the same mistake, three cards drawn, N8 to the player. Others milling around the table wanted to bet, the casino said only I could bet as I was the only one playing at the time. Once bitten twice shy, only ramped up by a few units on the punto which won the hand this time around.
What the Chinese players regularly used to do, is not point out dealer card drawing mistakes, they would inform everybody "in Chinese" to remain quiet. After that hand was completed, then proceed to bet the table maximum on the next hand. If they won that bet, accept the win, if they lost that bet, then complain about the prior hand, which would void the current losing hand or sometimes give them a second chance if the casino insisted on freezing the placed bets. Alas these fun times times are now a thing of the past.
Casinos make enough money and will even resort any means necessary to trip up, upset successful players, so my conscious is clear, I'll take anything and everything they want to give me by any whatever means.
Quote: egaliteN8 to the player. Others milling around the table wanted to bet, the casino said only I could bet as I was the only one playing at the time. Once bitten twice shy, only ramped up by a few units on the punto which won the hand this time around..
You should have bet every penny you had.
Quote: egaliteI've seen a casino confront players with threats of calling the Police 30 mins after realising a dealer paid full price on a winning B6 on a non-commission Baccarat game. Funny how all these players can no longer understand English until the word Police is mentioned.
Why do you suppose these players might not understand English? Are these the Chinese-speaking players you mention a bit further on?
Quote: egalite
So one night, I'm playing solo in an automatic groove, put the dealer into a rhythm, then I paused, the dealer continues pulling the cards, three of them!!! The punto side has drawn a 10 faced card and an 8, the banco is sitting on 6. I tell the dealer there is no bet on the table, so they pull the cards back as according to their strange policy.
In the bolded portion you admit your attempt at subterfuge...
Quote: egalite
Who am I to argue!!!
And why would you argue when everything was going according to your plan?
Quote: egaliteSo I ramp up my bet 10 fold and stick it on the punto, it's sitting on a N8, Banco is on 6, next card drawn, a bloody 3, unbelievable. I was livid, absolutely fuming, if it wasn't for that dealer mistake, I would not have gone anywhere near that bet amount, anger is a bit of an understatement.
Aw, darn, your plan to cheat was foiled. Damn the luck.
Quote: egalite
... blah blah blah... account of how aforementioned cheating worked... etc.
What's truly astonishing is how you're bragging about being a cheat. Money must mean more to you than your integrity.
Quote: egalite
What the Chinese players regularly used to do, is not point out dealer card drawing mistakes, they would inform everybody "in Chinese" to remain quiet.
Wow, you speak Chinese? That must come in handy.
Quote: egalite
Casinos make enough money and will even resort any means necessary to trip up, upset successful players,
This is true, where I work we keep a bucket of ice water under the table and if someone wins to much (subjective, yes, but we're given discretion) we grab the bucket and dump it over their head. The down side is we have to refill the bucket on our own break time, the damn casino is so evil.
Quote: egaliteso my conscious is clear, I'll take anything and everything they want to give me by any whatever means.
Apparently so. Have you tried a gun? it would be quicker and you wouldn't waste as much time sitting around listening to all that Chinese blither blather or risk a dousing.
Have you considered that the person you're really screwing over is in fact the dealer and not the casino? The dealer is just a poor working sap, that likely makes less than you do and it just trying to get by. A few "big hit" mistakes can cost them their job. Do you know how easy it is to get another dealer job when you were fired from your last one for making big mistakes?
But hey, at least you're pleased with yourself, and at the end of the day, what else really matters?
Quote: HunterhillWhat ,you don`t think someone can speak Chinese.
I'm sure they can, as I hear it spoken quite often. You might want to read some of his other posts before you make up your mind.
Quote: HunterhillIt was an attempt at humor,I chose the one thing that didn`t seem to matter.
I take it you're not Chinese then.
Quote: beachbumbabsI'm with PaiGowDan on this one. I always give back an overpay. Almost always get thanked. Pit boss bought me a bottle of champagne for it last month. Bad karma otherwise. If you didn't win it on the cards, you didn't win it. FWIW, I don't take money out of a lost wallet before I turn it in, either. And the karma on that for me has been tremendous. Lost 3 wallets myself last 30 years, twice got back everything, once got back wallet less cash.
You're in the minority here. Many, or even most, believe if you can get your hands on it, it's somehow yours. Weird, as not much else in life works that way... unless you're a criminal. And yet they take offense at casino's thinking of their behavior as cheating. Welcome to the forum.
Quote: beachbumbabsI'm with PaiGowDan on this one. I always give back an overpay. Almost always get thanked.
I think there are two situations which might constitute "an overpay". One is an undetected and utterly unsuspected dealer mistake that involves unanimity of opinion. Dealer pays what everyone thinks is the correct amount of money under circumstances wherein everyone thinks player won it. The other situation involves a "windfall" for a player who either knows something is wrong or should know it but is keeping quiet in the hopes that he will be able to profit from it.
When surveillance tapes have been reviewed and an error spotted some heavy types may show up and demand a repayment of a "windfall" alleging its theft if you don't repay it because in reality you "knew" it was improper when you accepted and retained it.
In Nevada a jury might find that a player's behavior was consistent with a person who is accidentally overpaid, does not realize it, has no way to confirm or deny it when confronted, is understandably defensive when accused of theft, and who is understandably suspicious when his accuser refuses to show him alleged evidence solely in the possession of the casino. This would allow a jury to find that it was not theft since the player lacked a state of mind necessary for the commission of a theft.
However, the Gaming Board usually prevents such things from ever getting to a jury by explaining to the gambler that the Gaming Agent will declare the amount to be the equivalent of an unsigned marker meaning that the question of the player's intent is irrelevant and that only the fact that the player received and retained the payment is relevant.
Mistakes happen. You can ask the Tray Lizard for plain orange juice and accidentally get served a Screwdriver. It happens. Usually, its no big deal. Same thing with dealers who over pay or who pay the wrong person. There is no right to become a "shot taker" just because you walk into a casino and shot takers are often found there.
If in doubt, speak up. Is that chip stack mine? Is that stack correct? What was the call? Did it come Hard or Easy?
If I do catch a mistake (and I feel like I usually do), then I take note in the back of my head, in case a critter comes over and asks for it back. The only times this has happened was when I got a BJ, got paid, etc. then dealer ended up having an ace in the hole (T up), in which case the PB said I had to give the winnings back on my $10 BJ (got paid $15). Of course, I acted like I didn't know what was going on yada yada ya...and at the end, the PB asked for me to return the $10, so I did [even though I "should have" given back $15].
In all your years of gambling, how many times has a boss or supervisor come over and said something like, "we need you to return $X" because it was an overpayment or something? Okay. Now, how many times has the boss told the dealer, "You took his pushed bet, so give him $X back"?
Quote: RS....
In all your years of gambling, how many times has a boss or supervisor come over and said something like, "we need you to return $X" because it was an overpayment or something? Okay. Now, how many times has the boss told the dealer, "You took his pushed bet, so give him $X back"?
Nine times out of ten, it's a floor supervisor telling a dealer to give the player what he is owed if he were shorted, believe it or not. This is because:
1. The casino's job is to please, appease, and to retain their customers, and;
2. The floorman has no problem telling his subordinate what to do - and how to do it. ("another screw up? Pay the customer $15 and get it right next time...and stop into the shift office ON YOUR NEXT BREAK!")
The casino seeks to avoid telling a customer to return an overpay because;
1. The casino's job is to please, appease, and to retain their customers;
2. The floorman dislikes telling a customer (be it a V.I.P or an unknown customer off the street) what to do, hoping instead for a trouble-free shift.
3. The floorman knows that many customers feel an "entitlement" that a dealer's mistake "somehow makes the money MINE - if it is in MY direction!" - when in reality all errors are to be corrected to the result of the actual hand in action regardless of which direction. The dealer and the floorman are to be automatons who carry out the take-and-pays to the exact result that the hand or the roll of the dice indicated, not caring which way the error went. Now many PLAYERS are another matter....
4. Because "asking back" money from customers can be so messy, MANY dealers, upon realizing it, quietly move forward with an "Okay, you didn't see that, onward we go, NO altercations at my table!" - as in "take that small gift and ignore what just happened, you'll probably give it back anyway" - to avoid any scene or write up. Better to play dumb on a trivial amount IF it were NOT produced from player shot-taking but from my error - is often the thinking. Often the dealers do catch it in a "did I just do that? - ahh, it's water under the bridge, WTF" thinking sense, and move the game on without a mention or a scene.
We seem to rationalize taking money from a big corporation. But if you were buying girl scout cookies and the girl gave you change of a 20 after you gave her a 10....you play fair and give it back
People rationalize shop lifting the same way. If its from a multibillion dollar company...no big deal.
the only thing that might make one think in gambling is that sometimes it doesnt effect you alone. And you know the saying "dont fk with other peoples money".....yes I know technically its not their money if they are being paid for a non wn....but who knows what crazy person is at the BJ table with you...or who has a crazy boyfriend that will show up and be told the story how you made the dealer aware that he/she did really bust....and what will they do in retaliation?
If its an overpay in craps where it affects me alone I give it back before being asked. In roulette as well.
There is nothing messier than a dealer at roulette, on a full messy board filled with chips, putting the wand on the wrong number, clearing off the chips and then being told they have the wrong number. What a mess. Everyone is saying that they had 10 chips surrounding the number. And it just shows you the knowledge of the people at the table. The people who had chips on the correct number didnt raise a fuss when the wand went on the wrong number . They assume the dealer knows best...just as they assume the payouts are correct.
When I used to play roulette, if there were errors...lots was in underpayment. Again the players assume the dealer knows the correct payout and dont do the mental math to double check. But it comes easily to me and I do it.
My guess is that the croupier being fatigued, might come up with a figure, and if they estimate they feel its better to be wrong on the low side than on the high side.
Th same with the floor person who might be overseeing the payout. There are chips surrounding the number involving adding quads, splits , streets, straight ups for one bettor. The floor person calculatres something in their mind, sees it being a little less ready to ship and they dont argue because no one upstair will complain about an under payout.
Is that assumption correct for roulette? That underpayment that customers dont complain about are not a big issue.
Quote: LarrySDo dealers get dinged on their record equaly for underpaying as for overpaying?
Yes. A mistake in procedure is a mistake in procedure, and the dealer gets written up or corrected for being subpar - no matter what the direction.
Quote: LarrySWhen I used to play roulette, if there were errors...lots was in underpayment. Again the players assume the dealer knows the correct payout and dont do the mental math to double check. But it comes easily to me and I do it.
My guess is that the croupier being fatigued, might come up with a figure, and if they estimate they feel its better to be wrong on the low side than on the high side.
Th same with the floor person who might be overseeing the payout. There are chips surrounding the number involving adding quads, splits , streets, straight ups for one bettor. The floor person calculatres something in their mind, sees it being a little less ready to ship and they dont argue because no one upstair will complain about an under payout.
Is that assumption correct for roulette? That underpayment that customers dont complain about are not a big issue.
Roulette and dice are much harder to deal than card games like Three Card Poker and Pai Gow Poker. Mistakes are harder to catch for Roulette or dice than on card games by both the dealers and players. An error can go down on Roulette, and neither the dealer nor player was ever aware. Dealer thought he calculated it right, player thought it looked right, and Surveillance thought it looked good. A lot of floormen are weak in Roulette, and can't honestly verify a Roulette dealer who was close to the mark when it ships out.
I admire the craps dealers at a full table with some serious money being bet...for quickly being able to calculate a payout, pay it, and be ready very quickly for the next roll. In roulette a dealer unsure of themselves can pay seperately....or pull the payout chips seperately and shove as one big stack.
Quote: LarrySIs there a reason in roulette that there is no technology to help the dealer and player. I mean there is a board that calculates the top 20 numbers and breaks down the last few hundred spins as to percentages of red/black. odd even high low.etc. Why isnt there a board right along side where the dealer has a keypad...enters in the number of chips on splits, straight up, quads, streets....and the board has a line for each showing the total for each and then a grand total at the bottom. Its just a big calculator that multipliesand automatically adds a total....not very hi-tech. THAT technology has been available for 40 years. If dealer fatigue is a bad thing. and if the casino views any type of miscalculation to be actionable....why not use the technology. It wouldnt hold up the game.It might even speed it up.
I admire the craps dealers at a full table with some serious money being bet...for quickly being able to calculate a payout, pay it, and be ready very quickly for the next roll. In roulette a dealer unsure of themselves can pay seperately....or pull the payout chips seperately and shove as one big stack.
By the time the dealer separates all the different colored chips on each number, counts them, and enters them into a computer, then gets the resulting payouts from the computer, then pays each winner.. He could already be long since done with it all doing it the current way.
Plus many dealers can see two separate bets from a player and just from experience know immediately what the exact full amount that person is owed.
I'd say your idea would only be helpful to those new to dealing the game. Most roulette dealers I've seen are very fast and very accurate
It could be available to players at their seats so they could verify the dealers total. They just plug in the number of chips next to the typeof bet..they get an automatic total...and they can then dissagree with the dealer if there is a problem
What if you have 3 straight up and 5 corners? That's the same thing as 51*3 -8 = 145 (I think). You might try to do 3*35 + 8*5, which takes longer. But that's an easy one.
Payouts are oftentimes figured out differently than you would think - that's what makes roulette and craps dealers fast at calculations. They're also called keys. A $35 HiLo isn't "take half the bet (17.5), multiply by 30, subtract half the bet, there's your answer" because that'd take forever. Its " what's a $35 9 pay? It pays 49. Take that add a 0 (490). Add half the original bet (17.5) and end up with $507.5". If you have some f**cked up bet, sometimes you'll "break it down to what you know". Every dealer knows what a $2 HiLo pays, so he knows what a $20 HiLo pays (29 and 290). You cut 35 into 20+10+5. As a dealer you have these memorized. 290+145+72.5. Try doing that in your head WHILE players are yelling and throwing in chips " I want a $10 horn hi 12 and press my hard 6 by 2 dollars and my 8 by 3 dollars and how much do I have on the 10? Hey I rolled a 12 I had a HiLo why aren't u paying me?" Meanwhile you have a $13 CE + $9 3-way 7, a $6 three way craps, a $5 horn hi yo". You got 16 people at the table, for some reason all yelling incoherently, the fatass next to who thinks you enjoy breathing in cigar smoke clouds, and the tweaker to your right who keeps bumping into you, and a dealer on the other side who's paying the line (who should be taking the line). And of course the dice knocked over every damn prop bet over. You can't remember who's bet is who's and your asshole box person sits in lala land. Of course, that's not all going to happen at the same time (or it might, yippee!!)...but that's stuff dealers have to constantly deal with. Figuring out the payments is *usually* the easy part. Dealing with the players and how the game tends to be played in general (late bets, moved chips, 16 players) makes for a tough combination. If everyone has hop bets or weird ass increments on prop bets every roll and a hard way hits.....expect the game to jam up (stop) for a few minutes. When everyone stacks the chips up to the roof....shits gonna not end well.
But there s a difference between dealers who do it all day and get mentally fatigued, and me who would play for 60-90 minutes.Sure they can figure 3 quads and 2 straight upand memorize. And they can do mental gymnastics nowing that 3 straight up is 105 and 6 splits iq equal to 3 straight up minus a dollar doe each 2 chips.
Everyone has their quick ways of figuring things out. Its just a matter of adding the results together in your head. When you have 3 corners, 2 straight up, 5 splits, and 4 on the double street.....you have to multiply, and then add. Its the adding I think where they get fatigued with.
Either way I have witnessed alot of mispays at roulette...most of which is underpay and most of which is not caught by the gambler.
I have only played riulette maybe 10 times in the past 10 yesrs,,,where I used to play it weekly in AC in the 80's and 90's..its just personal observation
Quote: PaigowdanNine times out of ten, it's a floor supervisor telling a dealer to give the player what he is owed if he were shorted, believe it or not. This is because:
1. The casino's job is to please, appease, and to retain their customers, and;
2. The floorman has no problem telling his subordinate what to do - and how to do it. ("another screw up? Pay the customer $15 and get it right next time...and stop into the shift office ON YOUR NEXT BREAK!")
The casino seeks to avoid telling a customer to return an overpay because;
1. The casino's job is to please, appease, and to retain their customers;
2. The floorman dislikes telling a customer (be it a V.I.P or an unknown customer off the street) what to do, hoping instead for a trouble-free shift.
3. The floorman knows that many customers feel an "entitlement" that a dealer's mistake "somehow makes the money MINE - if it is in MY direction!" - when in reality all errors are to be corrected to the result of the actual hand in action regardless of which direction. The dealer and the floorman are to be automatons who carry out the take-and-pays to the exact result that the hand or the roll of the dice indicated, not caring which way the error went. Now many PLAYERS are another matter....
4. Because "asking back" money from customers can be so messy, MANY dealers, upon realizing it, quietly move forward with an "Okay, you didn't see that, onward we go, NO altercations at my table!" - as in "take that small gift and ignore what just happened, you'll probably give it back anyway" - to avoid any scene or write up. Better to play dumb on a trivial amount IF it were NOT produced from player shot-taking but from my error - is often the thinking. Often the dealers do catch it in a "did I just do that? - ahh, it's water under the bridge, WTF" thinking sense, and move the game on without a mention or a scene.
I've never once had anyone ask me to repay a mispay, and I've profited from plenty of them. I have a hard time believing that not one has ever been seen.
Having said that, I've also never once had a suit ask a dealer to correct a mistake. I've caught plenty of dealer mistakes against me, but I've never seen a suit catch one. The way I see it, I'm on my own out there. It's my job to make sure that I'm paid what I'm owed, and no one else's. This is the main reason that I would have a real problem paying something back after the fact -- I don't expect that they will make me whole for errors against me after the fact, so I don't see why it should flow in the other direction either. Let me videotape all the hands and give me the option of reviewing the tapes after the fact and coming back if I didn't get paid on all my wins, and I might feel differently.
So if the dealer has a stack of chips he assembled with his right hand, placed at center table and handed off to his left most player with his left hand, he has followed procedures and sometimes the Suit just doesn't look at the stack and add it up as he is clearly supposed to do.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI've never once had anyone ask me to repay a mispay, and I've profited from plenty of them. I have a hard time believing that not one has ever been seen.
Having said that, I've also never once had a suit ask a dealer to correct a mistake. I've caught plenty of dealer mistakes against me, but I've never seen a suit catch one. The way I see it, I'm on my own out there. It's my job to make sure that I'm paid what I'm owed, and no one else's. This is the main reason that I would have a real problem paying something back after the fact -- I don't expect that they will make me whole for errors against me after the fact, so I don't see why it should flow in the other direction either. Let me videotape all the hands and give me the option of reviewing the tapes after the fact and coming back if I didn't get paid on all my wins, and I might feel differently.
I can understand that. There are many POV's on this, each his own and from own experience.
Suits seldom catch mistakes, - and they'd catch more if dealers owned up and spoke up - but there's a disincentive for dealers to flag their own errors to the floor.
Overpays therefore fall silent, but player shorts cause noise and get corrected.
Quote: PaigowdanI can understand that. There are many POV's on this, each his own and from own experience.
Suits seldom catch mistakes, - and they'd catch more if dealers owned up and spoke up - but there's a disincentive for dealers to flag their own errors to the floor.
Overpays therefore fall silent, but player shorts cause noise and get corrected.
While that is probably true, it might be somewhat balanced out by the fact that underpays are more common than overpays.
I'm not sure why this is true, but it definitely seems to be. I'm not implying that dealers do it intentionally, but I've caught way, way, way more mistakes against me than I have had mistakes in my favor.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceWhile that is probably true, it might be somewhat balanced out by the fact that underpays are more common than overpays.
Disagree. They're about even, as they would statistically be, but each sides sees, feels, and remembers what is objectionable to them.
Quote: PaigowdanDisagree. They're about even, as they would statistically be, but each sides sees, feels, and remembers what is objectionable to them.
I don't find underpays particularly objectionable -- I catch them so they don't cost me anything. I actually appreciate incompetent dealers.
Quote: PaigowdanDisagree. They're about even, as they would statistically be, but each sides sees, feels, and remembers what is objectionable to them.
Depends on the game. At BJ if the deal starts to take everones money thingkinking he had 20 but really has 22....everyone would let him know. Whereas if he thpught he broke but really didnt and started to pay....usually not a word. So the end result in BJ would be i think overpayment.
However at roulette alot of people leave the amount paid to the dealer. The people who surround numbers and bet all kinds of crazy combinations attached to a winning number tend to have a better chance of being underpaid rather than overpaid
I know you said that a person if reprimanded the same if the overpay or underpay. Except eith overpaying there is that extra issue of collusion that may hang over theirhead. They woiuld never be accused of collusion with an underpaid player of course.
So if collusion is always going to be a question on a mispay....I would think that a fatiqued dealer might make a mistake on the low side rather than the high side..feeling no one would catch it...and if they did its not hurtuing the casino.
For example a dealer calculates a complex bunch of chips on a number on roulette....and it comes to 367.00. She starts to count and then thinks to herself..."was it 357 or 367..i forgot"....instead of recalculating the entire complex payout...she give out the 357 figuring no one would catch it, and if the casino catches it..no collusion charges could be suspected.
Quote: PaigowdanCollusion is never suspected for a rare small error, and is almost never the case.
human nature is that you dont want to be accused of it ever.....it doesnt matter what the suits suspect or dont suspect......human nature is you dont wantto give out extra....if you are going to make a mistake you would be hapiier to shortchange. Please dont tell me that a dealer habving a bad week with a few players calling the floor over to recount a short pay in roulette.......would feel just as bad as if the eye in the sky caught a few players being overpaid.
For collusion to work where you're simply dumping and chunking chips out, it has to be either for so much, or so frequent to be worthwhile, such a "dump truck" collusion act would be blatant. Mistakes in the $10 would be once or twice a week if from an innocent or competent dealer, and any much MORE than that, or more frequent than that would just FLY UP OVER the radar. Floormen and surveillance can tell innocent errors from suspect errors with a great degree of accuracy. It would be "to THAT guy AGAIN??!! he did this three times with him already - the same guy - for $50 total! This dealer's getting fired!"
NO dealer would lose a job - and a gaming license - for chump change.
Inside jobs are planned to be big enough to be worth it, and with great accuracy and concealment. Floor can easily spot the difference between larceny and a brain farting dealer.
Quote: LarryShuman nature is that you dont want to be accused of it ever.....it doesnt matter what the suits suspect or dont suspect......human nature is you dont wantto give out extra....if you are going to make a mistake you would be hapiier to shortchange. Please dont tell me that a dealer habving a bad week with a few players calling the floor over to recount a short pay in roulette.......would feel just as bad as if the eye in the sky caught a few players being overpaid.
A mistake happens because it's a mistake. The dealer won't edge on the side of caution.....because he already thinks it's correct.
If you think the speed limit is 65, but it's really 75, you drive 65, because that's what you think the speed limit is. You don't think "it might be 75, but I'm not sure, so I'll go 65 just in case"..... You just think it's 65. There is no " it could be 65 or 75" thought.
Quote: PaigowdanI've dealt for years, and a $10 over pay (such as you pay a three of a kind as a full house on PGP, $25 to player instead of $15), would NEVER even be thought of as an act of collusion in the pit, as much as a simple brain fart.
For collusion to work where you're simply dumping and chunking chips out, it has to be either for so much, or so frequent to be worthwhile, such a "dump truck" collusion act would be blatant. Mistakes in the $10 would be once or twice a week if from an innocent or competent dealer, and any much MORE than that, or more frequent than that would just FLY UP OVER the radar. Floormen and surveillance can tell innocent errors from suspect errors with a great degree of accuracy. It would be "to THAT guy AGAIN??!! he did this three times with him already - the same guy - for $50 total! This dealer's getting fired!"
NO dealer would lose a job - and a gaming license - for chump change.
Inside jobs are planned to be big enough to be worth it, and with great accuracy and concealment. Floor can easily spot the difference between larceny and a brain farting dealer.
The idea that dealers would make multiple mispays that added up to $50 to defraud the casino is hilarious. I have personally witnessed several single mispays of over $1000 before. There is one dealer that I have played with several times with who always gets confused when the money gets big. He probably makes one mistake a shift (he actually makes about five, but four are corrected quickly) and the average cost is $500. Has worked there for over ten years. The rules to many of these proprietary games are complex (ever looked at the rule set for Asia Poker?). In my opinion there is little risk to the people involved in player-dealer mispay collusion. However, the same kind of people who would engage in a crime like this are very reckless, and so they get caught quickly. The idea that floormen or surveillance can detect a high percentage/all of mispays and rub their crystal ball of intent for insight is the kind of omniscience that rank and file dealers have drilled into their head, but doesn't bear out in reality.
You've probably heard about all the player/dealer collusion teams that got caught, but I bet you didn't hear about any of the ones that didn't. Since I actively avoid associating with people like that, I've only heard of one successful one third hand. I believe they crushed certain casinos, used lots of players, and they did not use mispays in any way. It wouldn't surprise me if there was a team that specialized in receiving mispays from colluding dealers.
There are known unknowns, and there are unknown unknowns. It sounds like you don't know the second class of things exist.
Quote: tongniThe idea that dealers would make multiple mispays that added up to $50 to defraud the casino is hilarious.
This would be a typical limit where the mistake would be noticed by experienced and honest floormen (and surveillance) if they were watching the game fairly routinely. Poor dealers are quickly known, and are generally corrected or sacked in due course.
Quote: togniI have personally witnessed several single mispays of over $1000 before.
I haven't. In the typical $5-$500 house, well, that amount would be twice the table limit. It wouldn't be missed. In a high-limit room, that kind of error would be flagged just as quickly. I'd like to know which casino this is. I've seen one-off $10 mis-pays flagged on the spot and corrected.
Quote: togniThere is one dealer that I have played with several times with who always gets confused when the money gets big. He probably makes one mistake a shift (he actually makes about five, but four are corrected quickly) and the average cost is $500. Has worked there for over ten years.
Dealers are trained to "ship only sure money." If he's been making five errors of $500 a night over the past ten years...wow. Most places he'd have been in the shift office halfway through his very first shift there, and gone by the second day after money mistake #10.
Quote: togniThe rules to many of these proprietary games are complex (ever looked at the rule set for Asia Poker?).
Craps and Roulette are hard to deal. Asia Poker isn't. And NO dealer is supposed to be on the floor in live action games dealing a game he hasn't gotten down pat. No one is supposed to be out there who cannot do the job, and the vast majority of places have got this covered.
Quote: togniIn my opinion there is little risk to the people involved in player-dealer mispay collusion.
Aside from the criminal charges, the lost employment, and the difficulty in getting a new career with a record. Collusion to defraud isn't viewed kindly by the gaming industry. Can't do it for small change, and big money is REALLY watched.
Quote: togniHowever, the same kind of people who would engage in a crime like this are very reckless, and so they get caught quickly. The idea that floormen or surveillance can detect a high percentage/all of mispays and rub their crystal ball of intent for insight is the kind of omniscience that rank and file dealers have drilled into their head, but doesn't bear out in reality.
They do well enough, and few crooked dealers are as good as Richard Marcus.
Quote: togniYou've probably heard about all the player/dealer collusion teams that got caught, but I bet you didn't hear about any of the ones that didn't. Since I actively avoid associating with people like that, I've only heard of one successful one third hand. I believe they crushed certain casinos, used lots of players, and they did not use mispays in any way. It wouldn't surprise me if there was a team that specialized in receiving mispays from colluding dealers.
I'm know that there are, this is not new news, there have been plenty of teams out there, both caught and free to roam.
Quote: togniThere are known unknowns, and there are unknown unknowns. It sounds like you don't know the second class of things exist.
Oh yes I do. I've been touting and discussing these teams and some of their methods straight out of American Roulette and the likes at this site years before Feb. 27, 2013. I know what's out there, and that some aren't caught.
Quote: PaigowdanI haven't. In the typical $5-$500 house, well, that amount would be twice the table limit. It wouldn't be missed. In a high-limit room, that kind of error would be flagged just as quickly. I'd like to know which casino this is. I've seen one-off $10 mis-pays flagged on the spot and corrected.
How is $5-$500 typical? A $500 max bet is very, very, low for non-carnie type games. Even outside of the high limit room, limits of $2000 are common in games like blackjack.
Quote:Craps and Roulette are hard to deal. Asia Poker isn't. And NO dealer is supposed to be on the floor in live action games dealing a game he hasn't gotten down pat. No one is supposed to be out there who cannot do the job, and the vast majority of places have got this covered.
Are you kidding me? There are tons of dealers out there who aren't trained properly to do their jobs. I have played UTH against several dealers who did not know how to read the board (ie, how to identify the best 5-card hand). I had one dealer who was very adamant (even after having it pointed out to him) that his K2 beat a player's 88 on a KK854 board because "I have three kings and he only has three 8's". Repeatedly pointing out that the player had a full house did not help. The pit had to be called (who immediately said, what's the problem, he has a full house, pay him). The dealer paid him, but only because he was following orders -- he clearly did not know WHY the player won. The dealer was allowed to keep dealing. This was at a major strip casino, too.
There are also many blackjack dealers who clearly can't add, but have memorized the totals of card combinations. These guys generally get into trouble once the 5- or more card hands come out.
