The Poll, the bet: Keyser or Mission146?
Poll
 | 36 votes (66.66%) | ||
| | 18 votes (33.33%) |
54 members have voted
December 29th, 2012 at 11:58:08 PM
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The poll was left out of the new thread and issue: Was it a bet?, based on the Keyser/Mission146 exchange of Decision2012.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
December 30th, 2012 at 12:23:04 AM
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Definitely looks like a bet to me. Maybe Keyser meant it as a joke - hell, I did - but Mission's reply was practically a slip; it's clear he was serious about it, and the time to correct him was then.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
December 30th, 2012 at 2:44:20 AM
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Both are at fault for not firming this up better by private message or something, but Keyser should pay up. You don't want a whiff of 'welcher' around you.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
December 30th, 2012 at 3:25:17 AM
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Its a bet. Mission146 defined it on October 29. Then he recapped it in as clear terms as possible on October 30. Keyser posted on October 31, having clearly been following the thread.
Wait.... I just got a text from Johnny Cochrane..... His client, Keyser, has never had a bet with Mission146, it was with "Mission145", as is clearly stated in the thread..... His closing statement in the trial will be....
"If it aint right, honey, you don't get the money!"
Wait.... I just got a text from Johnny Cochrane..... His client, Keyser, has never had a bet with Mission146, it was with "Mission145", as is clearly stated in the thread..... His closing statement in the trial will be....
"If it aint right, honey, you don't get the money!"
December 30th, 2012 at 6:00:22 AM
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I voted that it is a bet. Here is the key statements, to save others the trouble:
Keyser: Romney will likely win with 320 electoral votes.
Mission: 2:1, my $50 to win your $25, if you're playin', I'm layin'!!!
Keyser: Sure. To keep everything hassle free and simple, just go ahead and send me your money. :)
Personally, I think it is a bad idea to joke around when confirming a bet, and this is an illustrated example. However, the "sure" is what clinches the bet in my opinion. I'd suggest the two parties either accept the result of this poll, or agree on a neutral third party to decide it.
Keyser: Romney will likely win with 320 electoral votes.
Mission: 2:1, my $50 to win your $25, if you're playin', I'm layin'!!!
Keyser: Sure. To keep everything hassle free and simple, just go ahead and send me your money. :)
Personally, I think it is a bad idea to joke around when confirming a bet, and this is an illustrated example. However, the "sure" is what clinches the bet in my opinion. I'd suggest the two parties either accept the result of this poll, or agree on a neutral third party to decide it.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
December 30th, 2012 at 7:46:50 AM
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The problem with this poll is going to be the same issue as with the bet itself. Dan proposed this poll as a solution, but both parties did not agree to the poll as an acceptable solution. Mission did. Keyser did not respond. So the way I see, it back to square 1.
December 30th, 2012 at 8:03:23 AM
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As an ex-bookie, I have some experience with situations like this- I have found whenever a bettor disputes/complains about a losing bet (the amount, the terms, or something else), the outcome is certain- They ain't payin!
Mission will take a small hit- he won't get the $25 he is owed. Keyser's rep will take a much bigger hit than the $25 would have cost him. That's just nuts!
I don't know about the rest of you, but whenever I see Keyser's name, I will automatically think welcher.
Mission will take a small hit- he won't get the $25 he is owed. Keyser's rep will take a much bigger hit than the $25 would have cost him. That's just nuts!
I don't know about the rest of you, but whenever I see Keyser's name, I will automatically think welcher.
"I am a man devoured by the passion for gambling." --Dostoevsky, 1871
December 30th, 2012 at 8:11:29 AM
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I voted that it was a bet. However, I can understand that Keyser didn't think so. IMO if Keyser pays up all is square and there is no aura of welch. His reputation here has always been square, there is no reason for it not to continue once this misunderstanding is resolved.
A falling knife has no handle.
December 30th, 2012 at 9:24:57 AM
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Keyser told me in an email a month ago that if
he made the bet he'd pay. He went and looked
at it and said he never made the bet. He'll never
pay, you're wasting your time. He's a fairly
precise person and I have to say, I don't think
he made it either.
he made the bet he'd pay. He went and looked
at it and said he never made the bet. He'll never
pay, you're wasting your time. He's a fairly
precise person and I have to say, I don't think
he made it either.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
December 30th, 2012 at 9:33:55 AM
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If I was him I'd consider it a cheap lesson. You can't be vague about whether you made a bet or not. It's chump change on top of it.
Pay the man
Pay the man
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: “Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell!” She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
December 30th, 2012 at 9:36:41 AM
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It was a bet.
December 30th, 2012 at 9:37:43 AM
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It's not a bet. The joke at the end of it with the happy face takes away enough from the "Sure" comment that it puts the validity of the bet in doubt.
But this is a forum, and you have to know the parties. if I made that comment to the Wizard, then surely, it's a bet, because the Wizard takes his bets very seriously and pays any wager, even if was made in jest. Mission may have had the same standard, but that doesn't mean that Keyser had.
I won't go into the election results here.
But this is a forum, and you have to know the parties. if I made that comment to the Wizard, then surely, it's a bet, because the Wizard takes his bets very seriously and pays any wager, even if was made in jest. Mission may have had the same standard, but that doesn't mean that Keyser had.
I won't go into the election results here.
-----
You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
December 30th, 2012 at 9:38:07 AM
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Quote: odiousgambitIf I was him I'd consider it a cheap lesson. You can't be vague about whether you made a bet or not. It's chump change on top of it.
Pay the man
If I was Mission, I would have made a point of saying
at the time 'is it a bet or not'? Keyser is famous for
sarcasm and what he said isn't the same thing as 'yes
I accept the bet'. He doesn't care what you think of him,
believe me.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
December 30th, 2012 at 9:53:49 AM
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Has keyser ever before made real money wagers on this forum? (I'm not sure)
If yes, he's "in the game" and it counts as a bet.
Otherwise, the standard for a binding agreement has to be higher than a somewhat ambiguous remark.
If yes, he's "in the game" and it counts as a bet.
Otherwise, the standard for a binding agreement has to be higher than a somewhat ambiguous remark.
Resist ANFO Boston PRISM Stormfront IRA Freedom CIA Obama
December 30th, 2012 at 10:19:31 AM
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Quote: P90Has keyser ever before made real money wagers on this forum? (I'm not sure)
If yes, he's "in the game" and it counts as a bet.
Otherwise, the standard for a binding agreement has to be higher than a somewhat ambiguous remark.
I have to agree with P90's wise assessment. If Keyser has made any real money bets on here in the past, then this should be considered a bet.
If he has never participated in any of the bets, then there is some ambiguity as to whether or not there was a real acceptance intended.
Only Keyser knows whether or not he would have demanded money from Mission had the outcome been the other way. IF he would have, then there is no question there was a bet and he needs to pay.
Always borrow money from a pessimist; They don't expect to get paid back !
Be yourself and speak your thoughts. Those who matter won't mind, and those that mind, don't matter!
December 30th, 2012 at 10:41:46 AM
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Quote: RaleighCrapsI have to agree with P90's wise assessment. If Keyser has made any real money bets on here in the past, then this should be considered a bet.
If he has never participated in any of the bets, then there is some ambiguity as to whether or not there was a real acceptance intended.
So, if a forum member has NOT made any real money bets in the past, they don't have to pay when they do for the first time?
That's the standard????
"I am a man devoured by the passion for gambling." --Dostoevsky, 1871
December 30th, 2012 at 11:04:33 AM
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It's seems rather obvious Keyser knew it was a bet. After losing, Keyser disappeared from the forum, and did not respond to Mission's PM's (after reading them).
Trust me, I've dealt with these types frequently. They're all the same.
Trust me, I've dealt with these types frequently. They're all the same.
"I am a man devoured by the passion for gambling." --Dostoevsky, 1871
December 30th, 2012 at 11:06:42 AM
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No bet.
The standard has to be higher than "sure" for a bet to be established. I would look to stronger language like "Yes, it's a bet". The bet seemed sarcastic, and though Mission was serious about the bet he has a duty to confirm it. When I place a bet on an NFL game I am very explicit in stating the terms of the bet, and I insist that the bet is verified and confirmed before the start of the game. Sorry Mission, you should be more explicit next time.
The standard has to be higher than "sure" for a bet to be established. I would look to stronger language like "Yes, it's a bet". The bet seemed sarcastic, and though Mission was serious about the bet he has a duty to confirm it. When I place a bet on an NFL game I am very explicit in stating the terms of the bet, and I insist that the bet is verified and confirmed before the start of the game. Sorry Mission, you should be more explicit next time.
December 30th, 2012 at 11:18:54 AM
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Quote: MakingBookSo, if a forum member has NOT made any real money bets in the past, they don't have to pay when they do for the first time?
They just have to make it clear that they are putting their money where their mouth is, and not just talking junk. "It's a bet, you paypal me $50" is clear. "Sure... go ahead and send me your money" isn't. Works both ways.
Resist ANFO Boston PRISM Stormfront IRA Freedom CIA Obama
December 30th, 2012 at 11:25:48 AM
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I hope nobody siding with Keyser are participants in the WoV Picks Game. If there are, the Wizard is sure to get "Keysered"
"I am a man devoured by the passion for gambling." --Dostoevsky, 1871
December 30th, 2012 at 11:46:48 AM
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I've got to say that it wasn't a bet. It's not that you get a free pass on your first bet around here, it's that a simple one word answer with a smiley face at the end doesn't constitute a binding agreement unless you're known for throwing around deals.
If I were Keyser, I'd feel bad about the ambiguous situation and promise Mission a lunch if we were ever in the same city. But that's just me.
If I were Keyser, I'd feel bad about the ambiguous situation and promise Mission a lunch if we were ever in the same city. But that's just me.
Its - Possessive; It's - "It is" / "It has"; There - Location; Their - Possessive; They're - "They are"
December 30th, 2012 at 11:48:20 AM
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Quote: MakingBookI hope nobody siding with Keyser are participants in the WoV Picks Game. If there are, the Wizard is sure to get "Keysered"
Of all the people in the world I know, Keyser is probably in the last quintile of people I'd consider siding with.
But it doesn't change the facts. There is a bold line between talking your mouth off and putting money on the line, and it takes more than a remark to confirm crossing it.
Resist ANFO Boston PRISM Stormfront IRA Freedom CIA Obama
December 30th, 2012 at 11:55:11 AM
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Last edited by: sodawater on Oct 1, 2018
December 30th, 2012 at 2:13:35 PM
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I went to College for contract law and there was an offer and acceptance. "Sure" constitutes acceptance, "sarcasm" or not.
The other issue is that an illegal bet is not enforcable (not that Mission is going to sue).
I would pay to clear my name and lesson be learned to tighten up agreements.
The other issue is that an illegal bet is not enforcable (not that Mission is going to sue).
I would pay to clear my name and lesson be learned to tighten up agreements.
December 30th, 2012 at 2:35:34 PM
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I didn't vote, mainly because it doesn't concern me and I just don't care.
But, I think one of the first steps is to determine, Officially who won the bet. Does anyone even know who won the election??? Keyser, EvenBob, you guys seem to follow this type of stuff. Who won the presidential election??? lol :)
Now a question about this poll. How do we know this poll is being conducted fairly and the sample not tilted by polling more Mission supporters. lol
Ok, I'm done carry on folks, although I am wondering if anyone else has noticed that Keyser has not responded since just after this poll was suggested. No matter. good entertainment. Happy new year to all.
But, I think one of the first steps is to determine, Officially who won the bet. Does anyone even know who won the election??? Keyser, EvenBob, you guys seem to follow this type of stuff. Who won the presidential election??? lol :)
Now a question about this poll. How do we know this poll is being conducted fairly and the sample not tilted by polling more Mission supporters. lol
Ok, I'm done carry on folks, although I am wondering if anyone else has noticed that Keyser has not responded since just after this poll was suggested. No matter. good entertainment. Happy new year to all.
December 30th, 2012 at 2:38:36 PM
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I think Mission46 should be suspended for panhandling, but as he is an administrator, that won't happen !
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
December 30th, 2012 at 3:14:38 PM
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Quote: ahiromuI've got to say that it wasn't a bet. It's not that you get a free pass on your first bet around here, it's that a simple one word answer with a smiley face at the end doesn't constitute a binding agreement unless you're known for throwing around deals.
One of the things about posting at a forum is that you cannot hear the inflection/sarcasm, the tone of the answer. For that reason, you can then argue, "You have to take it at face value, where Sure = Yes [it is on]." This is a gambling forum; we are people who make bets, we participate in wagers.
You can also argue that with a poster sometimes known for glib answers, you'd need a clear-answer positive acknowledgement of the bet that mentions the bet or money, Something like "The bet is on," "I'll take your money," "That's a bet," or something to that effect. A non-denial of a challenge is not always an acceptance, but can be argued a yes if previously given a yes. The absence of a positive answer makes this murky.
We should practice clarification on bets between us. A challenger can state "So poster, the bet is on based on your agreement from your positive answer [permalink]." No further denial after the last "yes/sure/it's a go" + permalink proof keeps the bet in effect. Without an earlier "yes," a non-response is NOT an agreement.
Also, should a we have standards on this as a gambling forum?
1. PM be required with a yes/no answer?
2. A Bet is confirm with the "challengee" making a post of the Challenging quote plus a positive response:
Quote: challengeeQuote: challengerIf you think 'x' is going to happen, I'll lay 3:2, $300 to your $200, that it won't
"- You're on!" ("it's a bet," "I'll take your money," etc.)
This is unarguable.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
December 30th, 2012 at 3:21:32 PM
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This was clearly a bet. There's no doubt under common sense and had the elements that would hold up in a legally enforceable contract if gambling on elections were legal.
Keyser is lacking honor in this situation. The other tragedy is that it's only a small amount of money which should be settled right away.
Mission deserves the money for his bet. I am offering to give him $25 to honor the bet and get Keyser off the hook.
Keyser is lacking honor in this situation. The other tragedy is that it's only a small amount of money which should be settled right away.
Mission deserves the money for his bet. I am offering to give him $25 to honor the bet and get Keyser off the hook.
December 30th, 2012 at 3:24:53 PM
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Geez guys, this is really easy. Keyser offerred abet. Mission146 stated in clear unambiguous words that there was a bet. Keyser continued to participate in the thread, and said nothing to dissuade anyone from thinking there was a bet. He is a welcher. Could not be clearer.
December 30th, 2012 at 3:29:31 PM
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Quote: SOOPOOGeez guys, this is really easy. Keyser offerred abet. Mission146 stated in clear unambiguous words that there was a bet. Keyser continued to participate in the thread, and said nothing to dissuade anyone from thinking there was a bet. He is a welcher. Could not be clearer.
Yup. I feel that NO ONE should EVER glibly say here in a post "I'm willing to bet $50 even money that...." - because you'll get taken up on it, and you gotta stand up to it and not reneg on your words. Now, if NO dollar amount and odds were not mentioned, it is questionable, but dollar amounts and odds were mentioned.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
December 30th, 2012 at 4:45:43 PM
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Quote: dfensMission deserves the money for his bet. I am offering to give him $25 to honor the bet and get Keyser off the hook.
IMO Mission won't take your money (since your not Keyser).
dfens paying Keyers debt does not get him off the hook- he is still a welcher.
"I am a man devoured by the passion for gambling." --Dostoevsky, 1871
December 30th, 2012 at 4:49:39 PM
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Quote: PaigowdanYup. I feel that NO ONE should EVER glibly say here in a post "I'm willing to bet $50 even money that...." - because you'll get taken up on it, and you gotta stand up to it and not reneg on your words. Now, if NO dollar amount and odds were not mentioned, it is questionable, but dollar amounts and odds were mentioned.
I don't necessarily agree with that, but in this case it went a lot further. Once he said "sure", he accepted the bet, and that's it. "I was joking" is a pretty poor excuse.
December 31st, 2012 at 2:09:11 PM
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Quote: dfens
Mission deserves the money for his bet. I am offering to give him $25 to honor the bet and get Keyser off the hook.
I appreciate that and declined. I really wanted the vote to establish that I haven't been an @$$hole to Keyser and have good reason for thinking that he accepted my proposition. While I will personally not enter into another wager with Keyser, I will take him on good faith that he didn't think there was a bet (as slightly better than 1/3 voters do not think there was a bet) and will consider this matter resolved.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
December 31st, 2012 at 3:06:51 PM
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Quote: Mission146I will take him on good faith that he didn't think there was a bet .
He doesn't. And 15 people here agree. If it was obvious that
he agreed, nobody would take his side, not even me. Don't
think Keyser and I are friends just because I stick up for him.
We're not. At one time we were at each others throats on a
daily basis. Now we have a truce of sorts, but we are definitely
not friends. I know him and how he talks, if he had agreed to
the bet he would have said so in black and white.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
December 31st, 2012 at 3:25:44 PM
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Quote: EvenBobHe doesn't. And 15 people here agree. If it was obvious that
he agreed, nobody would take his side, not even me. Don't
think Keyser and I are friends just because I stick up for him.
We're not. At one time we were at each others throats on a
daily basis. Now we have a truce of sorts, but we are definitely
not friends. I know him and how he talks, if he had agreed to
the bet he would have said so in black and white.
I think that's a fair position. I would say that there are certainly enough people who agree with Keyser that it creates a reasonable-enough doubt for me to forget the whole thing, but enough people that say, "It's a wager," for me not to apologize. I think I would owe an apology if it did not appear to a reasonable person that there was a wager there, but I don't think that I acted inappropriately given that I believed there was a wager and further believed that he did not pay on the bet.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
December 31st, 2012 at 3:32:33 PM
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I'm curious and have a question of those who feel that a post of "Sure, go ahead and send me your money" (or something like that) constituted confirmation of a bet.
Suppose that his post had said, "A real bet? Yeah right, putz." Would that have been definite confirmation that he believed that they had a bet?
Sometimes written sarcasm is difficult to convey without confusion, and I wonder what the poster really intended in this case.
Suppose that his post had said, "A real bet? Yeah right, putz." Would that have been definite confirmation that he believed that they had a bet?
Sometimes written sarcasm is difficult to convey without confusion, and I wonder what the poster really intended in this case.
December 31st, 2012 at 3:52:56 PM
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Quote: DocI wonder what the poster really intended in this case.
He intended to make a bet. After he lost, he disappeared from the forum,
did not respond to Mission's PM's (but did read them). His actions after the bet lost should be considered.
I know I'm not going to change anyone's mind that is siding with Keyser (it's like arguing about politics),
but I'm certain he made a bet. I would deal with people like this weekly; there are very easy to spot. It was my job.
Hey, when some people are wrong, they disappear for a month. It's how they are made.
"I am a man devoured by the passion for gambling." --Dostoevsky, 1871
December 31st, 2012 at 3:54:50 PM
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Quote: DocI'm curious and have a question of those who feel that a post of "Sure, go ahead and send me your money" (or something like that) constituted confirmation of a bet.
I thought that it was a bet because it was, "Sure." and then the next statement, even without the period I would have taken it for a bet, though. With the last thing he said, I just thought it was a joke referring to the fact that he thought he would win. I often accept a bet and say, "You might as well just pay me now," or make an equivalent joke.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/gripes/11182-pet-peeves/120/#post815219
December 31st, 2012 at 4:11:08 PM
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You're 'certain he made a bet'? Based on what.
I've known the guy for years and I'm just as certain
he didn't. It can be very frustrating talking to him
because he constantly uses sarcasm instead of answering
questions directly. Its maddening sometimes.
I've known the guy for years and I'm just as certain
he didn't. It can be very frustrating talking to him
because he constantly uses sarcasm instead of answering
questions directly. Its maddening sometimes.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
December 31st, 2012 at 4:12:16 PM
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I have often been sarcastic about making a bet, and immediately following the joke/sarcasm I always make it clear if I'm in or out. Not doing so is shady. If you win you can say it was a bet, and if you lose you say I was just joking. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1jUBbCgMWmE
December 31st, 2012 at 5:34:23 PM
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Last edited by: sodawater on Oct 1, 2018
December 31st, 2012 at 5:55:13 PM
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Quote: EvenBobYou're 'certain he made a bet'? Based on what.
I've known the guy for years and I'm just as certain
he didn't. It can be very frustrating talking to him
because he constantly uses sarcasm instead of answering
questions directly. Its maddening sometimes.
I would say, too f'n bad. Whether or not he intended to make a bet, he made one and should pay.
December 31st, 2012 at 6:09:16 PM
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Quote: sodawaterMakingBook,
I'm very interested in your experience in sports bookmaking... Is it true that the harshest collection method is simply cutting off future bets? Maybe if you want you can start a new thread with some FAQs.
Correct, at least for me. The harshest collection method I ever used is to cut the guy off.
"I am a man devoured by the passion for gambling." --Dostoevsky, 1871
December 31st, 2012 at 6:31:17 PM
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Quote: AxiomOfChoiceWhether or not he intended to make a bet, he made one and should pay.
This is why verbal agreements suck and written contracts
were born. Too much room for misunderstandings.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
December 31st, 2012 at 6:33:48 PM
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Quote: MakingBookCorrect, at least for me. The harshest collection method I ever used is to cut the guy off.
Glad to see something have never changed. Before the internet, it just took a few phone calls to make the guy persona-non-Grata everywhere in town.
Also everybody had a square-up number, no matter how small a bettor or how big. Henry G could not get a $500 bet laid off with The Lord , because Julius owed Henry G. 10K. I had to go to The Oasis Club to collect before Julius would take Henry's bet !
Shed not for her
the bitter tear
Nor give the heart
to vain regret
Tis but the casket
that lies here,
The gem that filled it
Sparkles yet
December 31st, 2012 at 6:34:09 PM
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Well, our words are written here in Black & White. Non-contractual, honor-bound, true, but still Black & White.
You're looking at type print, not hearing voices here.
You're looking at type print, not hearing voices here.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
December 31st, 2012 at 6:50:30 PM
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Quote: Paigowdan
You're looking at type print, not hearing voices here.
Wrong. If that were true, 1/3 of the people who
voted wouldn't think he made a bet. These are
conversations in written form, not contracts.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
December 31st, 2012 at 6:53:47 PM
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Wrong.
Two-thirds, the majority, says he did.
I felt is was a grey area, though, without a very positive "You're on, it's a bet, I'll take your money" because the word sure is often used sarcastically to deny or question. Sure? [about that?] or SURE....[as in a "yeah, right!" denial], etc.
Two-thirds, the majority, says he did.
I felt is was a grey area, though, without a very positive "You're on, it's a bet, I'll take your money" because the word sure is often used sarcastically to deny or question. Sure? [about that?] or SURE....[as in a "yeah, right!" denial], etc.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
December 31st, 2012 at 7:26:34 PM
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Quote: PaigowdanWrong.
Two-thirds, the majority, says he did.
.
It should be 100% and its not even close. As
I said thats why written contracts were invented.
No misunderstanding, no denials.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
December 31st, 2012 at 8:12:48 PM
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Quote: EvenBobIt should be 100% and its not even close. As
I said thats why written contracts were invented.
No misunderstanding, no denials.
Sure Keyser could probably get off if he was up for murder.
This is more civil case; we only need greater than 50%
Sanitized for Your Protection
