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mkl654321
mkl654321
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December 29th, 2010 at 11:51:10 PM permalink
Quote: DeMango

Can we just stop this left wing diatribe? Until we find the gay gene it is all bs.
God said it was wrong, up until 50 years ago it was a disease, what changed? PC is what changed and the left wingnuts taking hold of the media and jamming this down our throats.



It's a behavioral characteristic, it's relatively common among not only the human species, but many others as well, and it's neither "right" or "wrong" or "sinful" or anything else judgmental. It's just something some people choose to do. Various societies have treated it with varying degrees of tolerance. Many people claim that their mythical "God" forbids it, but they don't produce any evidence of that other than a few passages in the Bible, which is just a book.

As to some people finding that it makes them uneasy, I would say that that alone is no reason to persecute gays. But nonetheless, many macho-men go out looking for gays to beat up and/or kill, because, I suspect, those macho-men are unsure of their own sexuality themselves, and "beating up fags" provides them with self-reinforcement. I would prefer a world where we don't beat, torture or kill other people (or otherwise deprive them of basic human rights) just because they live some part of their lives differently than we do.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
Nareed
Nareed
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December 30th, 2010 at 6:32:55 AM permalink
Quote: DeMango

God said it was wrong, up until 50 years ago it was a disease, what changed?



Can you stop your fanatical diatribe? Until you present solid evidence of God's existence, it's all bs.
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DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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December 30th, 2010 at 7:25:32 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Can you stop your fanatical diatribe? Until you present solid evidence of God's existence, it's all bs.

Although I share your view of God's non-existence, refering to it as "BS" is uncalled for.


I'll respond to the point of the question:
Quote:

...up until 50 years ago it was a disease, what changed?

What changed was many things. Civilization has advanced a lot in the last 50 years - a lot more than in any 50 year span in history.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁 Note that the same could be said for Religion. I.E. Religion is nothing more than organized superstition. 🤗
ItsCalledSoccer
ItsCalledSoccer
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December 30th, 2010 at 7:44:48 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Civilization has advanced a lot in the last 50 years - a lot more than in any 50 year span in history.



I would be careful about this. There's no doubt that scientific advancements have been great. But there's all kinds of doubt about whether or not the human condition (or human psyche or human propensity-to-screw-things-up or whatever phrasology works best for you) has advanced at all.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
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December 30th, 2010 at 7:55:24 AM permalink
That's why I said "civilization" rather than something like "mankind."

For what it's worth, I'll clarify: The biggest change (and the one to answer the question at hand) is the advancement in the exchange of information, thoughts and ideas. Not to mention a general increase in tolerance of minorities of all types.

---

On a side note, when I hear someone mention that gayness is a genetic disease, I tend to respond that they should be happy that the gays are voluntarily taking themselves out of the gene pool.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁 Note that the same could be said for Religion. I.E. Religion is nothing more than organized superstition. 🤗
Nareed
Nareed
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December 30th, 2010 at 8:00:40 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Although I share your view of God's non-existence, refering to it as "BS" is uncalled for.



Maybe it is. The rhethorical trick is to throw back the same words at the other side, just changing the subject which needs to be proved.

BTW on JL's posts, by his own reasoning straight women are insane to preffer to have sex with smelly, hairy men. A sane woman ought to be a lesbian.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
ItsCalledSoccer
ItsCalledSoccer
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December 30th, 2010 at 8:07:32 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Can you stop your fanatical diatribe? Until you present solid evidence of God's existence, it's all bs.



I think there was a thread on this a while back. It had lots of pretty good points, but one of them was: some poeple will look at any amount of evidence to the contrary of a belief they hold dear, but will still cling to that belief.

If someone (in this case, Nareed) says, "present solid evidence of God's existence," I always respond with, what particular piece of evidence would, beyond a shadow of a doubt and to the point where you would not disbelieve at any point in the future, make you believe in God? And, if unambiguously shown this evidence, would you immediately fall to your knees?

Usually, the person's answer just dodges the question. But sometimes he/she says something that hints at why they "don't believe." I put it in quotes because they really do believe in a God but are mad at him for some reason - "a good God wouldn't let [whatever] happen" or something like that. I'm not God but I would imagine that, if God is, in some ways, be like a parent or counselor, then he would appreciate an honest "dialogue" (whatever form that might take) with someone who is really angry at him.
Nareed
Nareed
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December 30th, 2010 at 8:23:03 AM permalink
Quote: ItsCalledSoccer

If someone (in this case, Nareed) says, "present solid evidence of God's existence," I always respond with, what particular piece of evidence would, beyond a shadow of a doubt and to the point where you would not disbelieve at any point in the future, make you believe in God?



Any kind of unambigous, solid, measurable evidence of the deity described in the Bible (either part). Not arguments, logic chopping or protestations of ignorance.

Quote:

And, if unambiguously shown this evidence, would you immediately fall to your knees?



No. The religion I was raised in does not require prostration.

Let's turn the question around. The Greeks and Romans believed in the gods of Olympus, not to mention the heroes like Achilles and Hercules, and whatever creatures inhabitted Hades. The Mayans believed in the Lords of Xybalba. The Egyptians believed in Ra, the Sun God, and a host of other deities.

What is your basis for rejecting these beilefs and these religions, and instead embracing the Judeo-Christian God? Can you prove for certain Zeus, Ra, Tlaloc, and every other deity do not exist? Can you show me the evidence to support such proof?
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
ItsCalledSoccer
ItsCalledSoccer
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December 30th, 2010 at 8:25:40 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

That's why I said "civilization" rather than something like "mankind."

For what it's worth, I'll clarify: The biggest change (and the one to answer the question at hand) is the advancement in the exchange of information, thoughts and ideas. Not to mention a general increase in tolerance of minorities of all types.



Heh, not to be argumentative, but I would still apply the same amount of care to the clarification. Science brings us the Internet and forums like this, but as we've seen pages and pages written about, there's oftentimes no advancement in the exchange of information, thoughts, and ideas. Man's propensity-to-screw-things-up is just as present as ever.

I would agree that there's a general increase in tolerance of minorities, but I would also provide context. This means that the "toleration of minorities" in, say, the age of the Egyptians or Persians or Greeks or Romans was no issue at all as such demographic separations were not made, but only used as descriptions; i.e., describing someone as a Moor but not attributing stereotypes.

Someone once said, "God invented time, men invented watches." I think something similar can be applied to demographic divisions: God invented people, men invented demography.

This is not meant to argue the existence of God or how the creation came into being. It is meant to make the point that demography is a relatively modern invention and, while the "toleration of minorities" is better than it was, say, 60 years ago, it's a lot worse than it was, say, 2,500 years ago when such distinctions weren't even made outside of physical descriptions.

My $0.02.
ItsCalledSoccer
ItsCalledSoccer
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December 30th, 2010 at 8:44:27 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Any kind of unambigous, solid, measurable evidence of the deity described in the Bible (either part). Not arguments, logic chopping or protestations of ignorance.

No. The religion I was raised in does not require prostration.

Let's turn the question around. The Greeks and Romans believed in the gods of Olympus, not to mention the heroes like Achilles and Hercules, and whatever creatures inhabitted Hades. The Mayans believed in the Lords of Xybalba. The Egyptians believed in Ra, the Sun God, and a host of other deities.

What is your basis for rejecting these beilefs and these religions, and instead embracing the Judeo-Christian God? Can you prove for certain Zeus, Ra, Tlaloc, and every other deity do not exist? Can you show me the evidence to support such proof?



Quote: ItsCalledSoccer

Usually, the person's answer just dodges the question.



Also, thanks for telling me which God I've embraced (if any). I've actually already disclosed this but I get the sense that you're assigning all sorts of motive and background to me, so I'll have to refer you to the threads where I've already disclosed this. I think you posted in that thread and I don't recall you having a reaction then, but I'm not sure, and I can't find it immediately. It's a pretty active forum.

So it makes me wonder why there's a reaction now. If you've already assigned all sorts of motive and background to me and trying to make this about me by "turning it around" for the sake of dodging the question, that's okay, but it would just be more honest to say something like, "I'm dodging the question" or "It's none of your business, can we go back to talking about blackjack now?" and not assign all those "reasons" to try to discredit me as a "source."

FWIW, the question I meant to pursue is not whether or not you believe in a God or in a particular God (you mentioned Judeo-Christian), but whether or not you're open-minded to the existence of a God at all. If you're not, that's okay, just say it: no matter how much or what evidence is presented, I *WILL NOT* ever believe in God. Don't hide behind some quasi-intellectual, impossible-to-meet, ambiguous standard of "any kind of unambiguous, solid, measureable evidence ..."

Or, tell us what "unambiguous, solid, measureable evidence" looks like: a rabbit appearing out of thin air? all fighting in the world stops instantaneously? the descent of the Judeo-Christian messiah from the clouds? every blackjack hand you're dealt being A-J?

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