What is the difference between a liberal and a libertarian? (FSZ)
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Quote: rdw4potusI don't think it's a matter of whether or not you'd be happy with it. Of course you're happy with it - just as long as your birthday is celebrated. The question is how your parents, especially your mother, would feel if the date were moved. She tried pretty hard to shove your giant head out of her, and she did it on a specific day. Now you're saying that day isn't good enough, and you'd rather celebrate your birthday at the same time as the Pagans celebrate...ummm...something?
I'd prefer to celebrate my birthday on any day that irritates liberal skin, and that day, thankfully, would be just about any day of the year these days!
Quote: JerryLoganYou know, my birthday is a certain date, but if anyone wants to celebrate it on any day of the year then I'm happy with that. There's nothing wrong with history picking a day in Dec. to celebrate Jesus' birth and the rest of us running with it. Little did the originators know how much this issue would get under the liberals skin, which of course is an added bonus and further reason to celebrate Christmas!
The originators of Christianity were about as liberal as you can get - they started a new religion based on a totally novel concept of "the Messiah". In fact, that's one of the primary differences between Judaism and Christianity - Judaism holds that the Messiah has not yet arrived, while Christianity holds that the Messiah was/is Jesus. When Jesus was born, the prevailing concept of Messiah included ending all wars, rebuilding the Temple in Jerusalem, and universal monotheism. Jesus didn't accomplish those things, so in order to call Jesus the Messiah, early Christianity had to change what "Messiah" meant. If that's not "liberal", I don't know what is.
Quote: JerryLoganI'd prefer to celebrate my birthday on any day that irritates liberal skin, and that day, thankfully, would be just about any day of the year these days!
I was going to stay out of this but I find your attitude so typical of christians - Let's all hate liberals. You worship a man who told you that the first commandment is to love all others as you do yourself.
I find that laughable because I personally think that the most liberal thing a person could possibly do would be to declare themselves the "son of god."
Now unless there's a bet on the birthday of christ let's wrap this thread up - it is largely a waste of time.
Quote: MartinI was going to stay out of this but I find your attitude so typical of christians - Let's all hate liberals. You worship a man who told you that the first commandment is to love all others as you do yourself.
I find that laughable because I personally think that the most liberal thing a person could possibly do would be to declare themselves the "son of god."
Now unless there's a bet on the birthday of christ let's wrap this thread up - it is largely a waste of time.
As I said, getting under the skin of liberal kool-aid drinkers is one of the more satisfying bonuses of the Christmas season, and watching atheists squirm at the mere mention of their underlying unhappiness and perpetual skepticism only adds to that joy.
In fact, JOY TO THE WORLD! Howdya like dem apples!!!
Quote: MartinI find your attitude so typical of christians - Let's all hate liberals.
Huh?
Quote: thecesspitI suspect Jerry needs to go and read his Bible again.
Again? What makes you think he did it in the first place? He's not an "intellectual," you see. So there's no need for him to actually read the book himself. He just assumes that what he's been told about it is correct...
I mean, left wingers.
Quote: thecesspitExcept Libertarian's aren't left wingers.
That's another of their denials.
Quote: JerryLoganThat's another of their denials.
Jerry, do you even know what libertarian means? The libertarian philosophy (little L, not the political party) is about maximizing individual freedom at the expense of government control. The opposite of libertarian is statist. A conservative supports a government which enables economic freedom (lower taxes and spending, etc) but restricts personal freedoms to uphold a particular moral code. The opposite of conservative is liberal, one who supports a government that restricts economic freedoms (higher taxes and spending) but enables greater personal freedoms. A libertarian supports a government with maximum individual freedoms.
Here, take this test:
http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz
Now see if you guys can hold back the mumbling and illogic on THAT one!
Quote: JerryLogan....
All I see is a man fumbling around, lashing out as soon as anyone points out his 'truth' was something he made up. Typical. Lash out and attack as soon as anyone gets towards policies not personalities. Can't debate his way out of a paper bag, and thinks that bullying and ignorance are the same as logic and manners.
Now either reply sensibly or shut up.
The adults are talking.
Quote: thecesspitAll I see is a man fumbling around, lashing out as soon as anyone points out his 'truth' was something he made up. Typical. Lash out and attack as soon as anyone gets towards policies not personalities. Can't debate his way out of a paper bag, and thinks that bullying and ignorance are the same as logic and manners.
Now either reply sensibly or shut up.
The adults are talking.
I think I'll begin my response with the words that most hurt unhappy atheists, who by definition are pessimistic and anti-establishment:
In GOD We Trust
GOD Bless America
One Nation Under GOD
And notice nos. 1&3 are FEDERALLY supported, while CHRISTMAS in all it's "birth of Jesus, Son of GOD" glory is also a NATIONAL holiday. Man alive, those words of TRUTH have got to be getting to religion haters and ACLU liberal whackjob fans!
Now....WHAT about that paper bag???
Quote: MathExtremistJesus: "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." (Matthew 22:39)
Jerry: "It is soooo typical of America-hating, work ethic-hating, man/woman marriage-hating, samesexmarriage-loving, entitlement-loving, family value-hating, illegal alien-loving, religion-hating, hippie-loving, lifelong student-supporting, police hating, violent protest-loving environmental alarmists."
Jesus: "And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." (Luke 6:31)
Jerry: "getting under the skin of liberal kool-aid drinkers is one of the more satisfying bonuses of the Christmas season, and watching atheists squirm at the mere mention of their underlying unhappiness and perpetual skepticism only adds to that joy."
Jesus: "Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." (Romans 13:10)
Jerry: "Oh, notice how MKL's stayed away from this thread? Imagine the PAIN he felt as he looked at a JL one dollar royal! Absolutely PRICELESS!!"
Jesus: "Never mix beer with wine."
Jerry: How about Ripple and malt liquor? Is that OK?
Quote: EvenBobJesus: "Never mix beer with wine."
Jerry: How about Ripple and malt liquor? Is that OK?
It's the holiday season. Break out the champipple!
Quote: JerryLogan
(something that didn't answer the question)
(some statement that is a non sequitir)
(some facts that are true, but don't support previous statements, or the point raised previously)
(standard ad hominem attacks against people he doesn't like)
WHAT about that paper bag???
You are still in it. You proved it far better than any sort of detailed reply I can give.
It's amazing how well you are doing a good job of making yourself look like the fool.
Quote: thecesspitYou are still in it. You proved it far better than any sort of detailed reply I can give.
It's amazing how well you are doing a good job of making yourself look like the fool.
When some self-described intellectual calls you a name, you know you've won.
Quote: JerryLoganWhen some self-described intellectual calls you a name, you know you've won.
Self delusion is all the rage in same areas. You've won exactly three-quarters of sod all in this argument Jerry.
You made a baseless statement :: "all Liberterians are Liberals". It was wrong.
You have failed to defend your position.
Again.
Well done.
Quote: thecesspitSelf delusion is all the rage in same areas. You've won exactly three-quarters of sod all in this argument Jerry.
You made a baseless statement :: "all Liberterians are Liberals". It was wrong.
You have failed to defend your position.
Again.
Well done.
You didn't like that did you....
Quote: thecesspitYou are still in it. You proved it far better than any sort of detailed reply I can give.
It's amazing how well you are doing a good job of making yourself look like the fool.
Well, you have to consider how much practice he's had at it. I mean, he embarrasses himself here at least twenty times a day (when he's not suspended), and he's become really, really good at that, too.
It reminds me of fourth-grade recess, listening to Jerry and hearing just how quickly he falls back on name-calling. He can't even engage in any kind of logical debate--his intellect isn't capable of it (which is why he sneers at "intellectuals", i.e., anyone smarter than him).
Quote: JerryLoganYou didn't like that did you....
Still waiting for a sensible reply, Jerry Logan.
Do you still say "all libertarians are Liberals"?
If so, why, when the Libertarian Party of America (the third biggest party in US) and their old leader Ron Paul are clearly not Liberals.
The answer: There are two (probably more, but in general) different "axes" when it comes to political ideology. One has to do with economic issues (conservative vs. liberal) and the other has to do with social issues (libertarian vs. authoritarian a.k.a. statist).
Libertarianism:
You can have very conservative libertarians (Ron Paul) - these types of libertarians are against abortion (they look at it in the eyes of the living fetus), want the destruction of the welfare state, want the Fed to be abolished. Then you have liberal libertarians, these tend to be the college crowd and the ACLU (I would argue otherwise about the ACLU but in general that's the position they've taken). Their primary issues tend to be the legalization of marijuana, net neutrality and in almost all cases a good amount of socialism. Taxing the rich, taking care of the "less fortunate" with government funds.
In both cases libertarians usually believe in staying out of the affairs of other countries. IE Ron Paul, a Conservative Republican, is very much against both middle east wars.
Authoritarianism:
The most obvious case of conservative authoritarians are theocracies like Iran. If I -had- to pick someone from the US I'd say Dick Cheney most closely resembles it and W. to a point. Currently the biggest issue for these people is gay marriage (it's tough to pinpoint people/issues because of the very nature of authoritarianism, although these people follow a moral code it's different for every single person and they want you to follow their point of view). Liberal (Socialist) authoritarians include the likes of Hitler, Stalin, etc. I had to add "socialist" because in the most popular cases these people are VERY far left. For anyone thinking otherwise, Hitler was a very far left politician - don't believe all the bullshit schools and pop culture try and spew. As with conservatives it's difficult to pinpoint specific issues, but in most historical cases (communism) they want to punish the rich and reward the working class (class-ism) and in other cases (fascism, nationalism) they want to punish "lesser" groups for the pain they're in - jews, blacks, immigrants.
Authoritarians in recent history have been much more aggressive than their libertarian counterparts.
The misconception that liberal=libertarianism comes a lot from pop culture. The ACLU sides with the liberals on most issues, the one that really fumes conservative libertarians is gun control. Although the ACLU has taken a handful of gun cases, they tend to ignore the issue more than "libertarians" should. The ironic thing is that although liberal and libertarian are considered to be somewhat similar, calling something liberal tends to be a bad thing yet being a libertarian is much more popular.
If you read nothing else, read this. Look up "Jeffersonian democracy" on wikipedia, he exemplifies conservative libertarianism for the most part (I know it's ironic, he started the Democratic party). Lastly: definitions of conservatism and liberalism change with every generation - the founders epitomized liberalism of the time yet they're now praised by conservatives.
Quote: mkl654321Well, you have to consider how much practice he's had at it. I mean, he embarrasses himself here at least twenty times a day (when he's not suspended), and he's become really, really good at that, too.
It reminds me of fourth-grade recess, listening to Jerry and hearing just how quickly he falls back on name-calling. He can't even engage in any kind of logical debate--his intellect isn't capable of it (which is why he sneers at "intellectuals", i.e., anyone smarter than him).
Just you blowing off steam for getting caught using an alias yesterday. The cries came through, and even the other atheists laughed.
Quote: ahiromuApproaching this question logically is probably a stupid idea but I'll have a go at it. I sum up my ideas at the end and tried to be as non-biased as possible. For full disclosure I would never vote for someone who believes abortion should be legal as it is now, I believe in the legalization of marijuana, and I would have voted for a third term for Bush (I know, let the ranting begin).
The answer: There are two (probably more, but in general) different "axes" when it comes to political ideology. One has to do with economic issues (conservative vs. liberal) and the other has to do with social issues (libertarian vs. authoritarian a.k.a. statist).
Libertarianism:
You can have very conservative libertarians (Ron Paul) - these types of libertarians are against abortion (they look at it in the eyes of the living fetus), want the destruction of the welfare state, want the Fed to be abolished. Then you have liberal libertarians, these tend to be the college crowd and the ACLU (I would argue otherwise about the ACLU but in general that's the position they've taken). Their primary issues tend to be the legalization of marijuana, net neutrality and in almost all cases a good amount of socialism. Taxing the rich, taking care of the "less fortunate" with government funds.
In both cases libertarians usually believe in staying out of the affairs of other countries. IE Ron Paul, a Conservative Republican, is very much against both middle east wars.
Authoritarianism:
The most obvious case of conservative authoritarians are theocracies like Iran. If I -had- to pick someone from the US I'd say Dick Cheney most closely resembles it and W. to a point. Currently the biggest issue for these people is gay marriage (it's tough to pinpoint people/issues because of the very nature of authoritarianism, although these people follow a moral code it's different for every single person and they want you to follow their point of view). Liberal (Socialist) authoritarians include the likes of Hitler, Stalin, etc. I had to add "socialist" because in the most popular cases these people are VERY far left. For anyone thinking otherwise, Hitler was a very far left politician - don't believe all the bullshit schools and pop culture try and spew. As with conservatives it's difficult to pinpoint specific issues, but in most historical cases (communism) they want to punish the rich and reward the working class (class-ism) and in other cases (fascism, nationalism) they want to punish "lesser" groups for the pain they're in - jews, blacks, immigrants.
Authoritarians in recent history have been much more aggressive than their libertarian counterparts.
The misconception that liberal=libertarianism comes a lot from pop culture. The ACLU sides with the liberals on most issues, the one that really fumes conservative libertarians is gun control. Although the ACLU has taken a handful of gun cases, they tend to ignore the issue more than "libertarians" should. The ironic thing is that although liberal and libertarian are considered to be somewhat similar, calling something liberal tends to be a bad thing yet being a libertarian is much more popular.
If you read nothing else, read this. Look up "Jeffersonian democracy" on wikipedia, he exemplifies conservative libertarianism for the most part (I know it's ironic, he started the Democratic party). Lastly: definitions of conservatism and liberalism change with every generation - the founders epitomized liberalism of the time yet they're now praised by conservatives.
All that....irrelevant, except for gun ownership. My son has a collection of 14 in the house. ACLUers....eat this: BOOM!
Quote: ahiromuLastly: definitions of conservatism and liberalism change with every generation - the founders epitomized liberalism of the time yet they're now praised by conservatives.
That's what's so stupid about conservatives bleating about "the values of our founding fathers"--those values included institutionalized slavery, disfranchisement of women, and fun laws like the Alien and Sedition Act.
I don't know if I would say Hitler is far-left... Fascism is and Communism live far down into the Statist control that there's little room left for right/left debates.
Quote: thecesspitThere is/was a fine but drastic line between Bolshevistic Communism and National Socialism... and Mussolini walked across it. The Communists believed in class-warfare and the struggle to move the socialist revolution forward via the Working Class (Urban or Rural depending...). The National Socialists believed the socialist revolution for the working class would be made by bolstering a them-and-us attitude to outside influences.
I don't know if I would say Hitler is far-left... Fascism is and Communism live far down into the Statist control that there's little room left for right/left debates.
I dunno--it seems like all of those political philosophies were just labels. Mussolini, Nazis, Communists---it's all the same: "We own everything, everybody has to obey us, and if anybody objects, we'll kill you."
Communism had state ownership, while the Nazi party had private ownership, and feted the industrialists.
I think we often think too rigidly of a straight-line continuum with "left" on one side and "right" on the other. I think it's better to take the ends of that continuum and bend them towards each other into a ring-shape with "left" and "right" being disconnected only by their labels.
I think a better continuum is Freedom and Not-Freedom, and I think political policy and discourse is better measured by those labels rather than "left" and "right". Those things can't, by definition, look the same in the way that Communism and Facism can look the same. Obviously, the extreme on the Freedom end would be Anarchy, which would look a whole lot different to the general citizenry than what we saw in Soviet Russia or Nazi Germany.
If it's helpful, I also think that Love and Hate are very similar emotions, and could be bent around into the ring shape as described above. I don't think the opposite of Love is Hate; I think the opposite is Indifference.
Quote: ItsCalledSoccerIf it's helpful, I also think that Love and Hate are very similar emotions, and could be bent around into the ring shape as described above. I don't think the opposite of Love is Hate; I think the opposite is Indifference.
Actually love and hate are similar only in that they both arouse passions. But at root they are different things. They can lead to each other, though, because of the passions involved.
say you love a woman and marry her. You'll be good to her, right? You'll do what you can to amke her happy, because you love her. If you find out she's cheating on you, that passion you ahve for her may remain but turn into passion against her: hate.
Quote: NareedActually love and hate are similar only in that they both arouse passions. But at root they are different things. They can lead to each other, though, because of the passions involved.
say you love a woman and marry her. You'll be good to her, right? You'll do what you can to amke her happy, because you love her. If you find out she's cheating on you, that passion you ahve for her may remain but turn into passion against her: hate.
I think that's exactly my point. The continuum is commonly thought of as Love-to-Hate, but a better continuum is Passion-to-Indifference. Colloquially, the "hate" in a lot of situations can turn into "love" very quickly .. at least that's been my experience with make-up sex, which is always edgier because it's further down to the "passion" end than, say, Vegas sex.
Of course, there are many "dimensions" and picking just one is always problematic, but if we were to pick just one, I think Passion-Indefference is a better choice than Love-Hate.
Likewise, I think the political continuum of Left-to-Right is not the best, but a better continuum would be Freedom-to-Not-Freedom.
Quote: ItsCalledSoccerI think that's exactly my point. The continuum is commonly thought of as Love-to-Hate, but a better continuum is Passion-to-Indifference. Colloquially, the "hate" in a lot of situations can turn into "love" very quickly .. at least that's been my experience with make-up sex, which is always edgier because it's further down to the "passion" end than, say, Vegas sex.
Of course, there are many "dimensions" and picking just one is always problematic, but if we were to pick just one, I think Passion-Indefference is a better choice than Love-Hate.
Likewise, I think the political continuum of Left-to-Right is not the best, but a better continuum would be Freedom-to-Not-Freedom.
That's the basis of that political quiz I posted -- preferring freedom in both the personal and economic realms is the domain of libertarianism, while lack of those freedoms is statist. According to the libertarians, preferring one kind of freedom to the other is the domain of liberals (+personal, -economic) or conservatives (-personal, +economic).
