Thread Rating:

JerryLogan
JerryLogan
  • Threads: 26
  • Posts: 1344
Joined: Jun 28, 2010
December 14th, 2010 at 11:58:18 AM permalink
Quote: rdw4potus

I don't think it's a matter of whether or not you'd be happy with it. Of course you're happy with it - just as long as your birthday is celebrated. The question is how your parents, especially your mother, would feel if the date were moved. She tried pretty hard to shove your giant head out of her, and she did it on a specific day. Now you're saying that day isn't good enough, and you'd rather celebrate your birthday at the same time as the Pagans celebrate...ummm...something?



I'd prefer to celebrate my birthday on any day that irritates liberal skin, and that day, thankfully, would be just about any day of the year these days!
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
  • Threads: 88
  • Posts: 6526
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
December 14th, 2010 at 12:21:40 PM permalink
Quote: JerryLogan

You know, my birthday is a certain date, but if anyone wants to celebrate it on any day of the year then I'm happy with that. There's nothing wrong with history picking a day in Dec. to celebrate Jesus' birth and the rest of us running with it. Little did the originators know how much this issue would get under the liberals skin, which of course is an added bonus and further reason to celebrate Christmas!



The originators of Christianity were about as liberal as you can get - they started a new religion based on a totally novel concept of "the Messiah". In fact, that's one of the primary differences between Judaism and Christianity - Judaism holds that the Messiah has not yet arrived, while Christianity holds that the Messiah was/is Jesus. When Jesus was born, the prevailing concept of Messiah included ending all wars, rebuilding the Temple in Jerusalem, and universal monotheism. Jesus didn't accomplish those things, so in order to call Jesus the Messiah, early Christianity had to change what "Messiah" meant. If that's not "liberal", I don't know what is.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Martin
Martin
  • Threads: 8
  • Posts: 149
Joined: Nov 20, 2010
December 14th, 2010 at 12:50:19 PM permalink
Quote: JerryLogan

I'd prefer to celebrate my birthday on any day that irritates liberal skin, and that day, thankfully, would be just about any day of the year these days!



I was going to stay out of this but I find your attitude so typical of christians - Let's all hate liberals. You worship a man who told you that the first commandment is to love all others as you do yourself.

I find that laughable because I personally think that the most liberal thing a person could possibly do would be to declare themselves the "son of god."

Now unless there's a bet on the birthday of christ let's wrap this thread up - it is largely a waste of time.
thecesspit
thecesspit
  • Threads: 53
  • Posts: 5936
Joined: Apr 19, 2010
December 14th, 2010 at 12:54:58 PM permalink
I believe liberal means "anyone who doesn't agree with my brand of conservative politics", right?
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
JerryLogan
JerryLogan
  • Threads: 26
  • Posts: 1344
Joined: Jun 28, 2010
December 14th, 2010 at 1:34:33 PM permalink
Quote: Martin

I was going to stay out of this but I find your attitude so typical of christians - Let's all hate liberals. You worship a man who told you that the first commandment is to love all others as you do yourself.

I find that laughable because I personally think that the most liberal thing a person could possibly do would be to declare themselves the "son of god."

Now unless there's a bet on the birthday of christ let's wrap this thread up - it is largely a waste of time.



As I said, getting under the skin of liberal kool-aid drinkers is one of the more satisfying bonuses of the Christmas season, and watching atheists squirm at the mere mention of their underlying unhappiness and perpetual skepticism only adds to that joy.

In fact, JOY TO THE WORLD! Howdya like dem apples!!!
thecesspit
thecesspit
  • Threads: 53
  • Posts: 5936
Joined: Apr 19, 2010
December 14th, 2010 at 1:51:06 PM permalink
I suspect Jerry needs to go and read his Bible again.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
Calder
Calder
  • Threads: 5
  • Posts: 538
Joined: Mar 26, 2010
December 14th, 2010 at 1:55:45 PM permalink
Quote: Martin

I find your attitude so typical of christians - Let's all hate liberals.


Huh?
rdw4potus
rdw4potus
  • Threads: 80
  • Posts: 7237
Joined: Mar 11, 2010
December 14th, 2010 at 1:56:58 PM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

I suspect Jerry needs to go and read his Bible again.



Again? What makes you think he did it in the first place? He's not an "intellectual," you see. So there's no need for him to actually read the book himself. He just assumes that what he's been told about it is correct...
"So as the clock ticked and the day passed, opportunity met preparation, and luck happened." - Maurice Clarett
JerryLogan
JerryLogan
  • Threads: 26
  • Posts: 1344
Joined: Jun 28, 2010
December 14th, 2010 at 2:13:40 PM permalink
The usual "out" when liberals start feeling like they're surrounded by an intelligence greater than theirs: "I AM NOT A LIBERAL! I AM A LIBERTARIAN!!!" It is soooo typical of America-hating, work ethic-hating, man/woman marriage-hating, samesexmarriage-loving, entitlement-loving, family value-hating, illegal alien-loving, religion-hating, hippie-loving, lifelong student-supporting, police hating, violent protest-loving environmental alarmists.

I mean, left wingers.
thecesspit
thecesspit
  • Threads: 53
  • Posts: 5936
Joined: Apr 19, 2010
December 14th, 2010 at 2:20:39 PM permalink
Except Libertarian's aren't left wingers.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
JerryLogan
JerryLogan
  • Threads: 26
  • Posts: 1344
Joined: Jun 28, 2010
December 14th, 2010 at 3:01:14 PM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

Except Libertarian's aren't left wingers.



That's another of their denials.
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
  • Threads: 88
  • Posts: 6526
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
December 14th, 2010 at 3:21:14 PM permalink
Quote: JerryLogan

That's another of their denials.



Jerry, do you even know what libertarian means? The libertarian philosophy (little L, not the political party) is about maximizing individual freedom at the expense of government control. The opposite of libertarian is statist. A conservative supports a government which enables economic freedom (lower taxes and spending, etc) but restricts personal freedoms to uphold a particular moral code. The opposite of conservative is liberal, one who supports a government that restricts economic freedoms (higher taxes and spending) but enables greater personal freedoms. A libertarian supports a government with maximum individual freedoms.

Here, take this test:

http://www.theadvocates.org/quiz
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
JerryLogan
JerryLogan
  • Threads: 26
  • Posts: 1344
Joined: Jun 28, 2010
December 14th, 2010 at 4:14:28 PM permalink
Again, touch a liberal nerve by putting the truth to them, and they come unravelled.

Now see if you guys can hold back the mumbling and illogic on THAT one!
thecesspit
thecesspit
  • Threads: 53
  • Posts: 5936
Joined: Apr 19, 2010
December 14th, 2010 at 4:29:16 PM permalink
Quote: JerryLogan

....



All I see is a man fumbling around, lashing out as soon as anyone points out his 'truth' was something he made up. Typical. Lash out and attack as soon as anyone gets towards policies not personalities. Can't debate his way out of a paper bag, and thinks that bullying and ignorance are the same as logic and manners.

Now either reply sensibly or shut up.

The adults are talking.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
JerryLogan
JerryLogan
  • Threads: 26
  • Posts: 1344
Joined: Jun 28, 2010
December 14th, 2010 at 6:15:50 PM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

All I see is a man fumbling around, lashing out as soon as anyone points out his 'truth' was something he made up. Typical. Lash out and attack as soon as anyone gets towards policies not personalities. Can't debate his way out of a paper bag, and thinks that bullying and ignorance are the same as logic and manners.

Now either reply sensibly or shut up.

The adults are talking.



I think I'll begin my response with the words that most hurt unhappy atheists, who by definition are pessimistic and anti-establishment:

In GOD We Trust
GOD Bless America
One Nation Under GOD

And notice nos. 1&3 are FEDERALLY supported, while CHRISTMAS in all it's "birth of Jesus, Son of GOD" glory is also a NATIONAL holiday. Man alive, those words of TRUTH have got to be getting to religion haters and ACLU liberal whackjob fans!

Now....WHAT about that paper bag???
JerryLogan
JerryLogan
  • Threads: 26
  • Posts: 1344
Joined: Jun 28, 2010
December 14th, 2010 at 7:21:19 PM permalink
I'm a lover not a fighter.
EvenBob
EvenBob
  • Threads: 442
  • Posts: 29477
Joined: Jul 18, 2010
December 14th, 2010 at 8:02:29 PM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Jesus: "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." (Matthew 22:39)

Jerry: "It is soooo typical of America-hating, work ethic-hating, man/woman marriage-hating, samesexmarriage-loving, entitlement-loving, family value-hating, illegal alien-loving, religion-hating, hippie-loving, lifelong student-supporting, police hating, violent protest-loving environmental alarmists."

Jesus: "And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise." (Luke 6:31)

Jerry: "getting under the skin of liberal kool-aid drinkers is one of the more satisfying bonuses of the Christmas season, and watching atheists squirm at the mere mention of their underlying unhappiness and perpetual skepticism only adds to that joy."

Jesus: "Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." (Romans 13:10)

Jerry: "Oh, notice how MKL's stayed away from this thread? Imagine the PAIN he felt as he looked at a JL one dollar royal! Absolutely PRICELESS!!"



Jesus: "Never mix beer with wine."

Jerry: How about Ripple and malt liquor? Is that OK?
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
  • Threads: 88
  • Posts: 6526
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
December 14th, 2010 at 8:13:38 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Jesus: "Never mix beer with wine."

Jerry: How about Ripple and malt liquor? Is that OK?



It's the holiday season. Break out the champipple!
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Wizard
Administrator
Wizard
  • Threads: 1516
  • Posts: 26990
Joined: Oct 14, 2009
December 14th, 2010 at 9:56:42 PM permalink
In case you're wondering where this thread came from, I split it off from When was Jesus born?. This is in the Free Speech Zone, so go ahead, have at it.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
thecesspit
thecesspit
  • Threads: 53
  • Posts: 5936
Joined: Apr 19, 2010
December 14th, 2010 at 10:19:01 PM permalink
Quote: JerryLogan



(something that didn't answer the question)
(some statement that is a non sequitir)
(some facts that are true, but don't support previous statements, or the point raised previously)
(standard ad hominem attacks against people he doesn't like)

WHAT about that paper bag???



You are still in it. You proved it far better than any sort of detailed reply I can give.

It's amazing how well you are doing a good job of making yourself look like the fool.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
JerryLogan
JerryLogan
  • Threads: 26
  • Posts: 1344
Joined: Jun 28, 2010
December 14th, 2010 at 10:25:05 PM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

You are still in it. You proved it far better than any sort of detailed reply I can give.

It's amazing how well you are doing a good job of making yourself look like the fool.



When some self-described intellectual calls you a name, you know you've won.
thecesspit
thecesspit
  • Threads: 53
  • Posts: 5936
Joined: Apr 19, 2010
December 14th, 2010 at 10:29:50 PM permalink
Quote: JerryLogan

When some self-described intellectual calls you a name, you know you've won.



Self delusion is all the rage in same areas. You've won exactly three-quarters of sod all in this argument Jerry.

You made a baseless statement :: "all Liberterians are Liberals". It was wrong.

You have failed to defend your position.

Again.

Well done.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
JerryLogan
JerryLogan
  • Threads: 26
  • Posts: 1344
Joined: Jun 28, 2010
December 14th, 2010 at 10:31:39 PM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

Self delusion is all the rage in same areas. You've won exactly three-quarters of sod all in this argument Jerry.

You made a baseless statement :: "all Liberterians are Liberals". It was wrong.

You have failed to defend your position.

Again.

Well done.



You didn't like that did you....
mkl654321
mkl654321
  • Threads: 65
  • Posts: 3412
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
December 14th, 2010 at 10:34:07 PM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

You are still in it. You proved it far better than any sort of detailed reply I can give.

It's amazing how well you are doing a good job of making yourself look like the fool.



Well, you have to consider how much practice he's had at it. I mean, he embarrasses himself here at least twenty times a day (when he's not suspended), and he's become really, really good at that, too.

It reminds me of fourth-grade recess, listening to Jerry and hearing just how quickly he falls back on name-calling. He can't even engage in any kind of logical debate--his intellect isn't capable of it (which is why he sneers at "intellectuals", i.e., anyone smarter than him).
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
thecesspit
thecesspit
  • Threads: 53
  • Posts: 5936
Joined: Apr 19, 2010
December 14th, 2010 at 10:36:55 PM permalink
Quote: JerryLogan

You didn't like that did you....



Still waiting for a sensible reply, Jerry Logan.

Do you still say "all libertarians are Liberals"?

If so, why, when the Libertarian Party of America (the third biggest party in US) and their old leader Ron Paul are clearly not Liberals.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
ahiromu
ahiromu
  • Threads: 112
  • Posts: 2107
Joined: Jan 15, 2010
December 14th, 2010 at 10:37:16 PM permalink
Approaching this question logically is probably a stupid idea but I'll have a go at it. I sum up my ideas at the end and tried to be as non-biased as possible. For full disclosure I would never vote for someone who believes abortion should be legal as it is now, I believe in the legalization of marijuana, and I would have voted for a third term for Bush (I know, let the ranting begin).

The answer: There are two (probably more, but in general) different "axes" when it comes to political ideology. One has to do with economic issues (conservative vs. liberal) and the other has to do with social issues (libertarian vs. authoritarian a.k.a. statist).

Libertarianism:
You can have very conservative libertarians (Ron Paul) - these types of libertarians are against abortion (they look at it in the eyes of the living fetus), want the destruction of the welfare state, want the Fed to be abolished. Then you have liberal libertarians, these tend to be the college crowd and the ACLU (I would argue otherwise about the ACLU but in general that's the position they've taken). Their primary issues tend to be the legalization of marijuana, net neutrality and in almost all cases a good amount of socialism. Taxing the rich, taking care of the "less fortunate" with government funds.

In both cases libertarians usually believe in staying out of the affairs of other countries. IE Ron Paul, a Conservative Republican, is very much against both middle east wars.

Authoritarianism:
The most obvious case of conservative authoritarians are theocracies like Iran. If I -had- to pick someone from the US I'd say Dick Cheney most closely resembles it and W. to a point. Currently the biggest issue for these people is gay marriage (it's tough to pinpoint people/issues because of the very nature of authoritarianism, although these people follow a moral code it's different for every single person and they want you to follow their point of view). Liberal (Socialist) authoritarians include the likes of Hitler, Stalin, etc. I had to add "socialist" because in the most popular cases these people are VERY far left. For anyone thinking otherwise, Hitler was a very far left politician - don't believe all the bullshit schools and pop culture try and spew. As with conservatives it's difficult to pinpoint specific issues, but in most historical cases (communism) they want to punish the rich and reward the working class (class-ism) and in other cases (fascism, nationalism) they want to punish "lesser" groups for the pain they're in - jews, blacks, immigrants.

Authoritarians in recent history have been much more aggressive than their libertarian counterparts.

The misconception that liberal=libertarianism comes a lot from pop culture. The ACLU sides with the liberals on most issues, the one that really fumes conservative libertarians is gun control. Although the ACLU has taken a handful of gun cases, they tend to ignore the issue more than "libertarians" should. The ironic thing is that although liberal and libertarian are considered to be somewhat similar, calling something liberal tends to be a bad thing yet being a libertarian is much more popular.

If you read nothing else, read this. Look up "Jeffersonian democracy" on wikipedia, he exemplifies conservative libertarianism for the most part (I know it's ironic, he started the Democratic party). Lastly: definitions of conservatism and liberalism change with every generation - the founders epitomized liberalism of the time yet they're now praised by conservatives.
Its - Possessive; It's - "It is" / "It has"; There - Location; Their - Possessive; They're - "They are"
JerryLogan
JerryLogan
  • Threads: 26
  • Posts: 1344
Joined: Jun 28, 2010
December 14th, 2010 at 10:37:57 PM permalink
Quote: mkl654321

Well, you have to consider how much practice he's had at it. I mean, he embarrasses himself here at least twenty times a day (when he's not suspended), and he's become really, really good at that, too.

It reminds me of fourth-grade recess, listening to Jerry and hearing just how quickly he falls back on name-calling. He can't even engage in any kind of logical debate--his intellect isn't capable of it (which is why he sneers at "intellectuals", i.e., anyone smarter than him).



Just you blowing off steam for getting caught using an alias yesterday. The cries came through, and even the other atheists laughed.
JerryLogan
JerryLogan
  • Threads: 26
  • Posts: 1344
Joined: Jun 28, 2010
December 14th, 2010 at 10:39:49 PM permalink
Quote: ahiromu

Approaching this question logically is probably a stupid idea but I'll have a go at it. I sum up my ideas at the end and tried to be as non-biased as possible. For full disclosure I would never vote for someone who believes abortion should be legal as it is now, I believe in the legalization of marijuana, and I would have voted for a third term for Bush (I know, let the ranting begin).

The answer: There are two (probably more, but in general) different "axes" when it comes to political ideology. One has to do with economic issues (conservative vs. liberal) and the other has to do with social issues (libertarian vs. authoritarian a.k.a. statist).

Libertarianism:
You can have very conservative libertarians (Ron Paul) - these types of libertarians are against abortion (they look at it in the eyes of the living fetus), want the destruction of the welfare state, want the Fed to be abolished. Then you have liberal libertarians, these tend to be the college crowd and the ACLU (I would argue otherwise about the ACLU but in general that's the position they've taken). Their primary issues tend to be the legalization of marijuana, net neutrality and in almost all cases a good amount of socialism. Taxing the rich, taking care of the "less fortunate" with government funds.

In both cases libertarians usually believe in staying out of the affairs of other countries. IE Ron Paul, a Conservative Republican, is very much against both middle east wars.

Authoritarianism:
The most obvious case of conservative authoritarians are theocracies like Iran. If I -had- to pick someone from the US I'd say Dick Cheney most closely resembles it and W. to a point. Currently the biggest issue for these people is gay marriage (it's tough to pinpoint people/issues because of the very nature of authoritarianism, although these people follow a moral code it's different for every single person and they want you to follow their point of view). Liberal (Socialist) authoritarians include the likes of Hitler, Stalin, etc. I had to add "socialist" because in the most popular cases these people are VERY far left. For anyone thinking otherwise, Hitler was a very far left politician - don't believe all the bullshit schools and pop culture try and spew. As with conservatives it's difficult to pinpoint specific issues, but in most historical cases (communism) they want to punish the rich and reward the working class (class-ism) and in other cases (fascism, nationalism) they want to punish "lesser" groups for the pain they're in - jews, blacks, immigrants.

Authoritarians in recent history have been much more aggressive than their libertarian counterparts.

The misconception that liberal=libertarianism comes a lot from pop culture. The ACLU sides with the liberals on most issues, the one that really fumes conservative libertarians is gun control. Although the ACLU has taken a handful of gun cases, they tend to ignore the issue more than "libertarians" should. The ironic thing is that although liberal and libertarian are considered to be somewhat similar, calling something liberal tends to be a bad thing yet being a libertarian is much more popular.

If you read nothing else, read this. Look up "Jeffersonian democracy" on wikipedia, he exemplifies conservative libertarianism for the most part (I know it's ironic, he started the Democratic party). Lastly: definitions of conservatism and liberalism change with every generation - the founders epitomized liberalism of the time yet they're now praised by conservatives.



All that....irrelevant, except for gun ownership. My son has a collection of 14 in the house. ACLUers....eat this: BOOM!
mkl654321
mkl654321
  • Threads: 65
  • Posts: 3412
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
December 14th, 2010 at 10:40:18 PM permalink
Quote: ahiromu

Lastly: definitions of conservatism and liberalism change with every generation - the founders epitomized liberalism of the time yet they're now praised by conservatives.



That's what's so stupid about conservatives bleating about "the values of our founding fathers"--those values included institutionalized slavery, disfranchisement of women, and fun laws like the Alien and Sedition Act.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
thecesspit
thecesspit
  • Threads: 53
  • Posts: 5936
Joined: Apr 19, 2010
December 14th, 2010 at 10:44:56 PM permalink
There is/was a fine but drastic line between Bolshevistic Communism and National Socialism... and Mussolini walked across it. The Communists believed in class-warfare and the struggle to move the socialist revolution forward via the Working Class (Urban or Rural depending...). The National Socialists believed the socialist revolution for the working class would be made by bolstering a them-and-us attitude to outside influences.

I don't know if I would say Hitler is far-left... Fascism is and Communism live far down into the Statist control that there's little room left for right/left debates.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
mkl654321
mkl654321
  • Threads: 65
  • Posts: 3412
Joined: Aug 8, 2010
December 14th, 2010 at 10:57:05 PM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

There is/was a fine but drastic line between Bolshevistic Communism and National Socialism... and Mussolini walked across it. The Communists believed in class-warfare and the struggle to move the socialist revolution forward via the Working Class (Urban or Rural depending...). The National Socialists believed the socialist revolution for the working class would be made by bolstering a them-and-us attitude to outside influences.

I don't know if I would say Hitler is far-left... Fascism is and Communism live far down into the Statist control that there's little room left for right/left debates.



I dunno--it seems like all of those political philosophies were just labels. Mussolini, Nazis, Communists---it's all the same: "We own everything, everybody has to obey us, and if anybody objects, we'll kill you."
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
thecesspit
thecesspit
  • Threads: 53
  • Posts: 5936
Joined: Apr 19, 2010
December 14th, 2010 at 11:00:41 PM permalink
One important difference I forgot about was the ownership of the means of production (Property in Marx's terms).

Communism had state ownership, while the Nazi party had private ownership, and feted the industrialists.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
ItsCalledSoccer
ItsCalledSoccer
  • Threads: 42
  • Posts: 735
Joined: Aug 30, 2010
December 15th, 2010 at 2:16:37 PM permalink
i think it's true that Communism and Fascism would look pretty much the same to the general citizenry.

I think we often think too rigidly of a straight-line continuum with "left" on one side and "right" on the other. I think it's better to take the ends of that continuum and bend them towards each other into a ring-shape with "left" and "right" being disconnected only by their labels.

I think a better continuum is Freedom and Not-Freedom, and I think political policy and discourse is better measured by those labels rather than "left" and "right". Those things can't, by definition, look the same in the way that Communism and Facism can look the same. Obviously, the extreme on the Freedom end would be Anarchy, which would look a whole lot different to the general citizenry than what we saw in Soviet Russia or Nazi Germany.

If it's helpful, I also think that Love and Hate are very similar emotions, and could be bent around into the ring shape as described above. I don't think the opposite of Love is Hate; I think the opposite is Indifference.
Nareed
Nareed
  • Threads: 373
  • Posts: 11413
Joined: Nov 11, 2009
December 15th, 2010 at 3:45:17 PM permalink
Quote: ItsCalledSoccer

If it's helpful, I also think that Love and Hate are very similar emotions, and could be bent around into the ring shape as described above. I don't think the opposite of Love is Hate; I think the opposite is Indifference.



Actually love and hate are similar only in that they both arouse passions. But at root they are different things. They can lead to each other, though, because of the passions involved.

say you love a woman and marry her. You'll be good to her, right? You'll do what you can to amke her happy, because you love her. If you find out she's cheating on you, that passion you ahve for her may remain but turn into passion against her: hate.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
ItsCalledSoccer
ItsCalledSoccer
  • Threads: 42
  • Posts: 735
Joined: Aug 30, 2010
December 16th, 2010 at 7:43:51 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Actually love and hate are similar only in that they both arouse passions. But at root they are different things. They can lead to each other, though, because of the passions involved.

say you love a woman and marry her. You'll be good to her, right? You'll do what you can to amke her happy, because you love her. If you find out she's cheating on you, that passion you ahve for her may remain but turn into passion against her: hate.



I think that's exactly my point. The continuum is commonly thought of as Love-to-Hate, but a better continuum is Passion-to-Indifference. Colloquially, the "hate" in a lot of situations can turn into "love" very quickly .. at least that's been my experience with make-up sex, which is always edgier because it's further down to the "passion" end than, say, Vegas sex.

Of course, there are many "dimensions" and picking just one is always problematic, but if we were to pick just one, I think Passion-Indefference is a better choice than Love-Hate.

Likewise, I think the political continuum of Left-to-Right is not the best, but a better continuum would be Freedom-to-Not-Freedom.
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
  • Threads: 88
  • Posts: 6526
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
December 16th, 2010 at 9:50:00 AM permalink
Quote: ItsCalledSoccer

I think that's exactly my point. The continuum is commonly thought of as Love-to-Hate, but a better continuum is Passion-to-Indifference. Colloquially, the "hate" in a lot of situations can turn into "love" very quickly .. at least that's been my experience with make-up sex, which is always edgier because it's further down to the "passion" end than, say, Vegas sex.

Of course, there are many "dimensions" and picking just one is always problematic, but if we were to pick just one, I think Passion-Indefference is a better choice than Love-Hate.

Likewise, I think the political continuum of Left-to-Right is not the best, but a better continuum would be Freedom-to-Not-Freedom.



That's the basis of that political quiz I posted -- preferring freedom in both the personal and economic realms is the domain of libertarianism, while lack of those freedoms is statist. According to the libertarians, preferring one kind of freedom to the other is the domain of liberals (+personal, -economic) or conservatives (-personal, +economic).
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
  • Jump to: