Backroom experience at Encore

Hey folks. Looking for your feedback and/or opinion about the recent experience I had with the Encore security staff and a rep from the Gaming Control Board.

I was staying at the Encore with a group of friends, and was playing blackjack around 3am on a Friday morning. I was betting black chips and was near the top of my usual bet spread 50-500. I had a 400 bet on the table and was dealt hard 11 against a dealer 9 or 10. I doubled down and received a 9. The dealer drew to 20. The dealer paid me on the bet (a push) and I took the chips without saying a word.

I've been paid many times by dealers in error, and when the dealer noticed it (rarely) they have never asked for the money back. On this occasion, the dealer realized what she had done (ie paid me 800 dollars in error) and asked for the pit boss to come over before dealing the next hand.

Here is where it gets a bit crazy. I honestly did not know at the time how much I had bet on the hand, as I had instinctively shuffled my checks into my stack after being paid.

The pit boss asked me to return the bet, but did not know how much to ask for. I asked them to review the tapes and show me how much I had bet and offered to return that amount. They said no and asked for 200 dollars. I asked to speak to the manager, still not sure how much was correct and/or fair.

After about 30 minutes (I agreed to sit and wait and NOT play during this time), the security manager came over with 2 HUGE security guards and announced that I owed them 800 dollars. They claimed to have reviewed the tapes. I asked to see some evidence of this and offered to return the money if they showed me the same tapes. I agreed, and stated, that I was paid some money in error, but needed something stronger than a verbal statement before handing over hundreds of dollars. I admitted that I had been drinking all night and my short term memory was at this point terrible.

I was offered two choices: leave the property and don't come back (they said they would pursue a charge of theft if I did), or come with them to the back room and wait for an agent from the GCB. I was staying at the hotel, and had booked 5 rooms for me and my friends through my casino host, so leaving was not really an option.

While in the back room, I was asked to sit on a bench fitted with restraints (I chose to remain standing), I was not permitted to make a phone call using my cell phone, and I was told repeatedly that I was being detained under suspicion of theft from the casino.

When the GCB agent arrived (Robert Nichol or Robert Nickle, I believe), he gave me two options: leave now and the casino may go to the police to try to obtain a warrant for my arrest, or give up 800 dollars to be held in escrow until the GCB reviews the tapes. He said the GCB has 30 days to make a decision, and if he/they believe that I was paid in error they will award the "error" to the Encore. He said "the most I can award them is 800, as that is their claim". If you only bet 50, you will get the difference back.

So I gave up the 800 and 30 days later received a really nice letter from Robert stating that the casinos claim was correct and the 800 dollars was theirs to keep.

My host won't return my calls now, but I still get nice offers from the Wynn/Encore for free rooms and decent comps via email.

Quote: mrjack9

So I gave up the 800 and 30 days later received a really nice letter from Robert stating that the casinos claim was correct and the 800 dollars was theirs to keep.

Of course. It was a foregone conclusion. They had
you as soon as you said you didn't know the amount.

Quote: mrjack9

The pit boss asked me to return the bet, but did not know how much to ask for. I asked them to review the tapes and show me how much I had bet and offered to return that amount. They said no and asked for 200 dollars.

My guess was they were trying to offer you a polite deal. If you pay $200 they won't go through the trouble of trying to throttle the full $800 out of you. The point was made, but they would take the lion's share of the loss. Why did you refuse? Were you honestly that confused that you didn't remember doubling down? I can't believe that you didn't realize at the time, that $200 was a deal. It sounds like your greed got the better of you.

Hey paco - you hit the nail on the head, I think. Thanks for the feedback and insight. That's why the drinks are free, eh?

I'm not a pit boss, but if I had been for that incident, here's how I would have handled it. Given that you had already acknowledged that you were mistakenly paid and had offered to return the funds, I would have done the following:
1) Offered you the choice to keep playing while surveillance cues up the tapes, as long as you sign a marker for $1000 with an assertion from me that any overage will be refunded in chips.
2) If you accept, you keep playing with the chips you have. When you take a break, you come to surveillance and we watch the tapes together. We both see it's $800 and you get $200 back, then owe $1000 on the marker. Net result is you owe the house $800, which was what you offered in the first place.
3) If you reject, we handle it as you described with you not playing, but that's a bad outcome from my standpoint because you're not playing = I'm not making money. Except when I have the surveillance manager come over, he has screen captures of the tape in his hand. At that point, presumably you hand over the $800 as promised.

I would never have threatened you with a theft charge if, as you say, you had already offered to repay the overpayment. Chances are Encore has just lost a black-chip bettor, and that's a grievous error in judgment. Unless, of course, you can forgive them -- or perhaps suggest that they should persuade you to come back with a very conciliatory offer. If you're interested in further patronizing the Encore, I'd write a letter.

If you had instead smirked at me and attempted to leave with the overpayment, that's when you get backroomed. But it seems to me that you were just a drunk guy trying to have a good time and not shoot angles, and that's not something I'd want to discourage -- you're exactly the kind of player I want in my casino. Your value to my business is too great to play hardball with you unless you're actually a crook.

But again, I'm not a pit boss.

Quote: pacomartin

My guess was they were trying to offer you a polite deal. If you pay $200 they won't go through the trouble of trying to throttle the full $800 out of you. The point was made, but they would take the lion's share of the loss. Why did you refuse? Were you honestly that confused that you didn't remember doubling down? I can't believe that you didn't realize at the time, that $200 was a deal. It sounds like your greed got the better of you.

I think that's right, but he may have been too inebriated to realize that at the time. I still wouldn't have backroomed him unless he were being uncooperative, which doesn't seem to be the case.

Quote: mrjack9

Here is where it gets a bit crazy. I honestly did not know at the time how much I had bet on the hand, as I had instinctively shuffled my checks into my stack after being paid.
I asked them to review the tapes and show me how much I had bet and offered to return that amount. They said no and asked for 200 dollars. I asked to speak to the manager, still not sure how much was correct and/or fair.
I agreed, and stated, that I was paid some money in error, but needed something stronger than a verbal statement before handing over hundreds of dollars. I admitted that I had been drinking all night and my short term memory was at this point terrible.

Here is where it gets a bit crazy...
No. You were drinking TOO MUCH. You didn't know what you had bet. You didn't realize you had been offered a quiet, polite and very nice deal on that 200 settlement. You had bet 800 and didn't even know it! You were offered a quiet 600 profit and didn't take it. YOU guaranteed yourself a trip to the backroom because you were drunk.

I doubt those offers will continue.

Oh, ME, if only the powers that be had your common sense (or that of an average racoon, even)

Indeed they should have allowed the continuation of play, but I'd leave out the marker part. It's not necessary. Even if the OP squandered all the money currently on him, he'd still be held responsible in the event it was proven. I've seen similar cases where either he's asked to then draw out ATM money later, get a marker later, or told he must pay within X days or a warrant will be issued, but all of these options are LAST steps, not the first course of action. Keep out the drama unless it's needed.

Also, they'd never let a civilian view coverage (at least we wouldn't, we don't let anyone but big-wigs in the room for security reasons). But, conspiracy theories aside, the casino's not going to F* you over just because they can. The more people in on the issue (Gaming Board, Police), the more you can be assured they're not pulling a fast one. If authority is invloved, they're not going to make a rash decision.

The escrow part is strange to me, we don't do that here. In this case, after we confirmed and told TG and the patron refuses, the same steps of pulling aside would probably have been taken. In our case, it would have been on-site police. If TG AND the police say you owe it, rest assured you probably owe it. And although we don't have BIG security guards, they'd be there too. A drunk guy refusing something gets security no matter what, even if he's good natured, simply because you just don't know what'll happen.

Basically, I don't see much of a problem with this scenario. You are absolutely entitled to protect yourself, and the casino acted pretty much by the book. A little more tact could have been added, sure, but it's not an entirely crazy example.

Quote: mrjack9

While in the back room, I was asked to sit on a bench fitted with restraints (I chose to remain standing), I was not permitted to make a phone call using my cell phone, and I was told repeatedly that I was being detained under suspicion of theft from the casino.

Did you attempt to use your cell phone and if so what did they do? Personally I would have settled for $200 but if I had ended up in the holding room I'd be on the phone with Nersesian until they physically took my phone and cuffed me.

Quote: JimMorrison

Personally I would have settled for $200 but if I had ended up in the holding room I'd be on the phone with Nersesian until they physically took my phone and cuffed me.

Each would have been very wise steps to have taken. I think he may have been too drunk to reason properly and thats why he was in the back room, but once there he should certainly have dialed someone and forced the issue right then and there.

Okay the booze is free and its of high quality and lets face it, that brooze is brought to you by very attractive young women ... but to not remember whether you had bet fifty dollars or eight hundred dollars? Jeez... she wasn't that good looking.

The Wynn doesn't deserve your business.

#1 shame on the Encore for treating you like that. #2 shame on you for being to drunk to know what the hell you were doing and playing a skill game while drinking and not recognizing a generous offer when you got it. #3 pigs get fat and hogs get slaughtered you were being a hog. I never drink and play a skill game. If I am going to drink and still want to play I play some mindless game like video keno or keno (actually have done quite well too) #4 The Encore does not deserve your play, the way you roll the hosts will line up for your play. Consider it an interesting lesson and take your play elsewhere.

If the dealer realised the error before dealing the next hand then, assuming heads up play, he/she should have remembered the amount overpaid. The $200 offer was an absolute bargain, however, the dealer should have asked for the $800 and then the surveillance would have backed it up.

Players act differently when being paid out on bets that they shouldn't - some own up and some take the money without saying anything. I'm not heading into the 'right or wrong' discussion here (see Counting thread for that :-) ), however, if the OP was aware that it was a 'push' then, IMO, you tend to take note of an overpayment more than an actual win, so I'm surprised that the OP did not know the amount as mental faculties were still intact.

Players cannot see surveillance tapes and can contact Nevada GCB if they feel wronged, as NGCB have the authority to view the tapes. Failure to pay back the amount wrongly paid (even if you are unsure of the amount) is bordering on theft in my opinion and I view it as the player being in the wrong in this instance rather than the casino, who admittedly made the first mistake. The casino has to make a judgement call which could end up with them not receiving any payment back - they may have done this if they had felt that the 'good deed' would be more than returned by the revenue that the player generated for the casino. Bearing in mind that the player refused to pay back $200 as a settlement, it was looking bleak for the casino unless they showed the surveillance tapes which is not the requirement or the correct procedure in these circumstances.

mrjack,

You clearly remembered that you had a $400 bet up, doubled 11 against a 9 or 10 and got a 9. You also remembered that the dealer drew to a 20 resulting in a push. You even remembered the agent's name. Those are very precise details for an alcohol soaked brain. You then state you didn't know how much you had bet on the hand. Which is it?

Sorry,but it sounds to me like you felt entitled to keep the money simply because the dealer made a mistake. Actually, you made a $600 mistake by pursuing the issue.

In the future, never willingly accompany security to a back room or any private area.

Hi Ben - The hand/card values were illustrated in the letter I received from the GCB 30 days after the incident.

Thanks for the feedback guys. I actually don't play (or stay) at Wynn/Encore any more, and I also don't play anything bigger than quarters if I've been drinking. Humbling, but valuable experience.

If you were too drunk to remember betting eight hundred bucks, how is it your memory suddenly clarified enough to recall all the other details?

I believe the OP gave the details as they were reconstructed for him after the fact. He has referenced the GCB report numerous times now. He did not write the facts as he recalled them at the time they were happening, since he apparently was rather intoxicated. Everything written here substantiates that viewpoint. It also explains why he did not take the original offer of $200. Would anyone with their mind still functional pocket an $800 error and then refuse to give back $200 to call it square (morality aside)?

While the OP was quite clear about alcohol being involved, I don't think that massive inebriation is necessary to cause one to forget one's last bet, especially if you've been playing for a while. I've been sober and forgotten the amount of my last bet; I've even occasionally found myself having to glance at the Baccarat or Sic bo history display just to remind myself whether I won the last hand/roll. I've started writing wager amounts on my Baccarat scorecard for exactly this reason. I have also always had dealer errors in my favour awarded to me, FWIW.

So it happens. I do feel like the Encore could have handled this situation better. I wouldn't be hugely surprised if, as a result of this thread, mrjack isn't the only patron that they've lost as a result of how they did handle things. Just a guess.

I thought that backrooming was illegal in the US, except in cases of cheating. I'm not sure that this would count, though, since mrjack was given an option. I have no idea how the law is worded.

> I actually don't play (or stay) at Wynn/Encore any more,
We won't pry as to whether that is solely your decision or is a mutual one.

>and I also don't play anything bigger than quarters if I've been drinking. Humbling, but valuable experience.
Ah then perhaps you were a winner that night!
Casinos can be seductive and erode the normal safety margins under which we are used to operating.
Its good to now be more aware of what you've been betting. I believe that obnoxious twerp from Girls Gone Wild recently won a legal victory about the degree of his sobriety and the validity of his markers. Its a fine line.

" Indeed they should have allowed the continuation of play"

Face, I am sure you would not have allowed him to continue if he was indeed DRUNK ??

Quote: buzzpaff

Face, I am sure you would not have allowed him to continue if he was indeed DRUNK ??

Not if he was hammered, no. Drinksy, tipsy, buzzed, sure. It's a judgement call of the personnel handling it. If the OP was cognant and cooperative, I think he should be left alone while the facts are found.

When I was at the Star City in Sydney the pit boss could easily review the video of any table. My brother in law disputed something and just a few clicks and they could review the hand. No need to call Gaming and waiting 30 days.

In this situation, based on your version, it does seem the Encore came down with the heavy-handed treatment unnecessarily. Somehow, I think they would have a different version.

As others have said, I think it is theft to refuse to return an overpayment if requested. I doubt a casino would make such an accusation falsely or ask for a higher amount. My advice is that if this happens to you I would cooperate without argument. I would not demand to call Gaming or see tapes unless you know the request was incorrect.

Quote: Wizard

I would not demand to call Gaming or see tapes unless you know the request was incorrect.

Absolutely. When they ask you how much you bet, make something
up if you don't remember. Low ball it, the last thing you want is them
to stop the game and go look at tapes.

You may not remember to follow any of the advice here next time you're drinking as much, so I think the best advice is not to drink so much when you're gambling with that much money and you'll probably be fine.

Not to say everyone sober makes the best decisions, but it gives you a fighting chance at least.

Quote: RaleighCraps

I believe the OP gave the details as they were reconstructed for him after the fact. He has referenced the GCB report numerous times now. He did not write the facts as he recalled them at the time they were happening, since he apparently was rather intoxicated. Everything written here substantiates that viewpoint. It also explains why he did not take the original offer of $200. Would anyone with their mind still functional pocket an $800 error and then refuse to give back $200 to call it square (morality aside)?

You can also believe in Santa Claus, but you'd be wrong in that, also.

Your entire post is erroneous.

Look at the OP's original thread again, and his brief follow up posts.

He never referred to any GCB report, which according to you he would have read in order to "fill in the blanks."

No, he only got a short letter saying "you lose."

He did not view the tapes, he did not view a report which discussed the tapes.

All the details came from his memory.

The letter from the GCB, in which they explained their decision, went into explicit detail about the entire hand. The letter stated the times of my bet, the deal, the double down,........and stated the denomination of the chips in play (4 blacks for the bet + 3 blacks and 4 greens for the double down). It clearly stated the rank of the cards in play as well. If the letter simply said "you lose" I wouldn't know the details of the hand. I actually framed the letter and put it on the wall in my office. How many people have a letter from the GCB, after all?

Quote: MrV

You can also believe in Santa Claus, but you'd be wrong in that, also.

Your entire post is erroneous.

Look at the OP's original thread again, and his brief follow up posts.

He never referred to any GCB report, which according to you he would have read in order to "fill in the blanks."

No, he only got a short letter saying "you lose."

He did not view the tapes, he did not view a report which discussed the tapes.

All the details came from his memory.

You really like to jump to conclusions.

I think you were drunk, that's why you were back-roomed. Seen to many innocent people harmed physically by an otherwise peaceful DRUNK !

Quote: mrjack9

. How many people have a letter from the GCB, after all?

I'm trying to decide if I'd want one or not? I guess it would depend on the circumstances. : ) But I might frame it too.

Quote: JimMorrison

You really like to jump to conclusions.

No, I concluded based on what was posted previously.

Originally all the OP said was "30 days later received a really nice letter from Robert stating that the casinos claim was correct and the 800 dollars was theirs to keep."

In other words: "You lose."

He originally said nothing about the letter describing in detail what the camera showed, etc: this was only mentioned after I called him on it.

Curious.

I'm not saying he's lying; I just wonder if he's still drunk.

Quote: MrV

No, I concluded based on what was posted previously.

Originally all the OP said was "30 days later received a really nice letter from Robert stating that the casinos claim was correct and the 800 dollars was theirs to keep."

In other words: "You lose."

He originally said nothing about the letter describing in detail what the camera showed, etc: this was only mentioned after I called him on it.

Curious.

I'm not saying he's lying; I just wonder if he's still drunk.

I think it's pretty reasonable to have assumed the letter from Gaming gave much more detail than "you lose".

Quote: JimMorrison

I think it's pretty reasonable to have assumed the letter from Gaming gave much more detail than "you lose".

Funny, that's the same letter I get from the IRS.