Vegas Club claims to have loosest slots downtown
Coincidentally, I had just come from the El Cortez where they claim their slots are 32.62% looser than the Clark County average. In small print it said that details were available at the cage. So, I went to the cage. It took about five minutes but they eventually photocopied some figures and a letter from CDC E-Reports backing up the claim.
I was hoping the Vegas club would do the same. So I asked about it at the cage and the cashier paged the slot supervisor on duty. About five minutes later somebody came out and asked me what I wanted. So I asked the question and she tried to get rid of me with vague answers. However, I kept pressing her to see evidence of her claims. She finally gave up on me and told me to wait in another part of the casino. A few minutes later somebody else came along and I asked the same questions for a third time. She said I would have to speak to the head of slots on Monday. I asked if I could call and she gave me his name. So today I called around 1:00 PM, asking the same question for a fourth time, but have not heard back yet.
As far as I know the casinos don't know what each other is doing, so I have no idea how the Vegas club could claim to have the loosest slots downtown. They would know the downtown average, but how could they know, for example, the returns at the Fitzgerald's. However, I'll give the slot director a fair chance to make his case, should he choose to return my call. If I'm not convinced they are making a truthful claim I will have no compunction to write a letter of complaint to Gaming.
Stay tuned for further developments.
I suspect in the small print, they will say the claim actually refers to their "party pit" dancers.
I was thinking the same thing.Quote: FleaStiffI thought the commission forbade "loosest" claims. They can "loose" or "more loose than xxxxxxxx" or "looser than xxxxxxxxxx" but they can't say "loosest". The "false or misleading" of 5.011(4), I think.
Evidence or not, they can't make such a claim.
And even if they have the evidence, that's all historical. As such, any claim must have a historical disclaimer.
All they might reasonably claim is that as of a determination made on a certain date they were then the loosest ... they don't know what the other casinos have done in the interim and if its some ancient survey its meaningless.Quote: DJTeddyBearAnd even if they have the evidence, that's all historical. As such, any claim must have a historical disclaimer.
I think that slot rates should be subject to disclosure and meaningful comparisons. I understand one licensee is disclosing the rate on each individual machine. But even a "below county average" ain't to informative. I would suspect many are below average and many are above it. That doesn't mean its worth the cab fare to seek out a looser slot or that one's individual experience is in any way going to be related to an average that embraces machines he is not playing.
Quote: WizardIn my trip downtown on Sunday I noticed lots of signage in the Vegas Club (or is it Las Vegas club?) claiming that their slots are 40% looser than before and the loosest downtown.
I don't understand the statement. Looser than what? What are they calculating? What is the numerical variable that has changed 40%?
Quote: WizardIn my trip downtown on Sunday I noticed lots of signage in the Vegas Club (or is it Las Vegas club?) claiming that their slots are 40% looser than before and the loosest downtown.
As far as I'm concerned Vegas=Las Vegas.
So there :P
Quote:I was hoping the Vegas club would do the same.
Not an unreasonable expectation, but marketing slogans are not what you'd call subject to review by the public.
Have you tried emailing the gaming commission? Just a question, "I noticed this sign at LVC and I wonder...." I doubt you'll get anythign concrete from the casino, but they may be stepping on some rule with that ad.
BTW I'm reminded of an old Dave Berg cartoon in MAD Magazine. It showed three pizza parlors in the same block. One advertised "Best pizza in the country!" The second "Best pizza in the world!" The third "Best pizza in the block!" And it was the third that looked full and had a line outside.
Quote: FleaStiffI thought the commission forbade "loosest" claims. They can "loose" or "more loose than xxxxxxxx" or "looser than xxxxxxxxxx" but they can't say "loosest". The "false or misleading" of 5.011(4), I think.
Good find! For the benefit of others, here is what it says:
Quote: NRS 5.011(4)Failure to conduct advertising and public relations activities in accordance with decency, dignity, good taste, honesty and inoffensiveness, including, but not limited to, advertising that is false or materially misleading.
Link: http://gaming.nv.gov/stats_regs/reg5.pdf
What I think I'm going to do is fax them a letter shortly, quoting that regulation. If I don't get a callback by COB Thursday I go to Gaming.
Quote: matildaI don't understand the statement. Looser than what? What are they calculating? What is the numerical variable that has changed 40%?
There were signs all over the casino saying "We loosened our slots 40%." What I'm sure that means is they lowered the house edge by 40%. For example, maybe they were set to 90% before, and they increased them to 94%. Whether calculated theoretically or by actual results, I don't know. However, to accomplish that they could just tighten their slots for one minute and then bring them back to where they were before. For example 94% at 2:00, 90% at 2:01, 94% at 2:02, and leave them there.
I plan to ask about that one too, but the "loosest slots downtown" bothers me a lot more.
The slots weren’t loosened with one fell swoop. Instead, starting in January, it started lowering the hold percentage on selected banks of machines, 40 percent at a time. A machine that once held 6 percent would now hold, on average, 3.6 percent.
Way to go, Mike.
Quote:
August 9, 2011
Mr. Jack Budde
Slots Supervisor
Las Vegas Club
Dear Mr. Budde:
As I mentioned in my voicemail yesterday, on Sunday I was at the Vegas Club and noticed many signs stating at the bottom, "Loosest slots downtown." I would very much like to see any figures you may be willing to share with the public that show the Vegas Club to have looser slots than every other property downtown, which is how I interpret your claim.
I do not doubt your claim is true and complaint with this Gaming regulation:
" Without limiting the generality of the foregoing, the following acts or omissions may be determined to be unsuitable methods of operation: ...
Failure to conduct advertising and public relations activities in accordance with decency, dignity, good taste, honesty and inoffensiveness, including, but not limited to, advertising that is false or materially misleading." -- NRS 5.011(2)
As I'm sure you know the El Cortez claims to have 32.62% looser slots than the downtown average. When I asked for details they provided me with detailed drop and win figures as evidence. I ask for no less from you.
Thank you for your attention to this matter and I look forward to hearing from you.
Regards,
Michael Shackleford, A.S.A.
Quote: renohttp://www.weeklyseven.com/news/2011/march/17/loosening
The slots weren’t loosened with one fell swoop. Instead, starting in January, it started lowering the hold percentage on selected banks of machines, 40 percent at a time. A machine that once held 6 percent would now hold, on average, 3.6 percent.
Good URL, thanks. Please make a link next time.
Quote: boymimboIt's Fight Back, with the Wizard, Michael Shackleford!
Way to go, Mike.
David Horowitz is my hero!
Or the old joke about the two places on either side who kept putting up signs making bolder and bolder claims while the merchant in the middle just put up one sign: Main Entrance.Quote: NareedBTW I'm reminded of an old Dave Berg cartoon in MAD Magazine. It showed three pizza parlors in the same block. One advertised "Best pizza in the country!" The second "Best pizza in the world!" The third "Best pizza in the block!" And it was the third that looked full and had a line outside.
It is true that "puffery" is not considered legally misleading. "Freshest fish in the world" is clearly puffery.
That Tuscany web site slogan "The odds are in your favor" didn't fool me for a moment and I doubt it fooled anyone else either but after I sent them an email they did indeed hire a firm to do a complete revamping of their website and that slogan disappeared.
I admire The Wizards restraint in not mentioning the runaround and delay he was already subjected to. (Nitpicking dept.: Its "compliant" not "complaint").
I look forward to the response. I think the interpretation is "forty percent looser than we used to be" and that our present payout is the loosest that exists in the Downtown Area which of course is a difficult claim for them to make unless they know what the payout rate at other casinos are which would be difficult to discern from official figures that only release an average win rate.
Quote: MrVYou misspelled "compliant:" you wrote "complaint."
Dang! That error was probably Freudian. Also the kind of thing spell checkers miss.
No peep from the Vegas Club yet.
Quote: FleaStiffIt is true that "puffery" is not considered legally misleading. "Freshest fish in the world" is clearly puffery.
I think their claim goes beyond "puffery." It was specific, limited in scope, and something that should be easily verifiable if true.
Quote: WizardHere is a fax I just sent.
Fax? Seriously? Are any still around?
;)
Quote: hook3670LOL now that is funny Nareed, next thing you know he will be writing and mailing them letters!
I recall when fax machines debuted in the 90s, for the mass market, and how convenient they were. But by the late 90s email was much more convenient, and with the advent of cheap color scanners and broadband by 2000, really, there's no excuse to cling to the fax.
I exaggerate, of course. We still have a fax at the office (part of the copier/printer/scanner/fax combo), but we use it only because some neo-Luddites insist on using them.
But then maybe, almost certainly, the casino made their fax available to the Wizard so he will get frustrated and cease his efforts (gotta stay on topic a little bit)
Quote: NareedBut then maybe, almost certainly, the casino made their fax available to the Wizard so he will get frustrated and cease his efforts (gotta stay on topic a little bit)
I agree, fax machines are pretty archaic. The only reason I still have one is I have a copier/scanner/fax combo machine. To send a fax I have to unplug my phone line and move it to machine. I use it in fax mode maybe once a month. In this case I didn't know the slot directors Email, and if I sent my message to the Vegas Club's general Email address I wouldn't trust it to get routed properly.
To get the fax number I had to call the Vegas Club's main number and ask for it.
Quote: WizardIn this case I didn't know the slot directors Email, and if I sent my message to the Vegas Club's general Email address I wouldn't trust it to get routed properly.
Oh, no doubt it woulnd't be routed at all.
But with a fax there are plenty of excuses, too. Surely you've heard them all: it wasn't clear, it wasn't legible, it got mixed with faxes for another department, it never arrived, there's a black line running through it, etc etc.
And then it has to be routed to the right person, too :P
Quote: hook3670The only thing I might recommend is if you can get a direct email address and send an email with return receipt so you know if the person who received it has opened it and read it. That way they can not deny that someone has seen your questions and certainly valid concerns.
The slot supervisor's email address might be found by googling the man's name, which is in the fax, along with the casino's email domain, which is in the general casino's email.
But return receipt is not a guarantee. By default all my mail at work goes out with return receipt, and I receive acknowledgements maybe half the time.
Oh true indeed.Quote: WizardI think their claim goes beyond "puffery." It was specific, limited in scope, and something that should be easily verifiable if true.
Those old claims by Rikers Soap that Rikers Soap was the only soap recommended (by the Rikers Soap Company) for washing other soaps when they get dirty is clearly false advertising but it is in no way malicious or ever taken seriously.
Claims for slot machines should be backed up and based upon solid evidence of a practicable recency. Figures that are one year old would be fine, but not much beyond that. And ofcourse if more recent figures were actually available I would not want a casino to try to get excess miles out of the signage.
I think the standards should be raised a bit when we recall that a greater duty is owed to a bar patron. Yes, many casino customers do not drink but many do and the casino serves them gratis so the "protection" offered by the advertising regulations should be addressed to a patron who is in a less than fully sober state. Signage should be clear and explicit and the type face large and visually contrasting with the background.
The casinos know that many players are relatively ignorant of how to play and have been drinking. I don't think casinos should be allowed to be deceptive in the games they offer.
Quote: WizardWhat I think I'm going to do is fax them a letter shortly, quoting that regulation. If I don't get a callback by COB Thursday I go to Gaming.
Gaming's already been. From the Weekly Seven article:
"[In March 2011] a Gaming Control Board enforcement agent did stop by the Las Vegas Club last week. Budde says the agent didn’t challenge the claim that the casino had loosened its slots, but investigated the ancillary claim that the Las Vegas Club has “downtown’s loosest slots.” As a result of the visit, the Las Vegas Club is adding small print to its ads noting that the Gaming Control Board affirms that, as of 2010, its slots were 15 percent looser than the downtown average."
I ain't a member of the spelling police.
Quote: ChampagneFireballEl Cortez claims their slots are 32.62% looser than the Clark County average, but in the Wizard's letter he says they claim that they are looser than downtown average. Those are two different things, are they not?
Dang again. I meant to say the Clark County average in the letter.
About fine print, I didn't see any on any of the Vegas Club signs.
Quote: matildaI don't understand the statement. Looser than what? What are they calculating? What is the numerical variable that has changed 40%?
Quote: ChampagneFireballEl Cortez claims their slots are 32.62% looser than the Clark County average, but in the Wizard's letter he says they claim that they are looser than downtown average. Those are two different things, are they not?
There is not much difference between the Clark county average and the downtown average.
For Fiscal Year 2011 the average win for:
Clark county slots: 6.47%
Downtown slots:6.43%
Strip area slots:7.35%
So it would be a valid claim to state that "Downtown slots are 12.52% looser than Strip Area slots" based on the calculation 6.43%/7.35%-1 =-12.52%.
The El Cortez has a piece of paper that says "An independent company audit verifies that the slot machines at El Cortez return 95.64% compared to the Clark County average of 93.53%" Therefore the (95.64%-93.53%)/(1-93.53%)=32.61% looser than the Clark County average.
The El Cortez will produce this signed audit upon request at the cage to back up their advertising claim. Las Vegas Club should be able to produce a similar document.
By the Way: The $1, $5 and $25 slots are 9.3% of the machines in downtown Vegas, and produce 14% of the slot revenue. I've always felt that the casinos should get together and agree to set these slots on the loosest possible manufacturing setting. They could advertise that fact, and give a firm identity for all of downtown.
You can't claim to have the loosest slots in Vegas because you would need an independent audit of every casino.
Quote: pacomartinYou can't claim to have the loosest slots in Vegas because you would need an independent audit of every casino.
There is also the question of when does the fiscal year end, when are the official figures released, etc. So it would always be a statement relating to some past state of affairs no longer known to be current and not knowable.
Now as to a regional unity on the 1, 5 and 25.00 slots, thats all fine and dandy but I have a feeling that it would exist on paper. Wouldn't each casino want to cheat in some respect either by having some exceptions or by wanting the public to believe they were exceptional in some respect?
Quote: FleaStiffThere is also the question of when does the fiscal year end, when are the official figures released, etc. So it would always be a statement relating to some past state of affairs no longer known to be current and not knowable.
I think that is true of a most statistics, that they only refer to a stated time period. I suppose you could produce statistics for the previous fiscal year, and then crank all the machines as tight as possible, but as a promotional tool that wouldn't work for very long.
Quote: FleaStiffNow as to a regional unity on the 1, 5 and 25.00 slots, thats all fine and dandy but I have a feeling that it would exist on paper. Wouldn't each casino want to cheat in some respect either by having some exceptions or by wanting the public to believe they were exceptional in some respect?
Well that is true that there is always some conflict between regional unity and promoting your own casino. However, $1-$25 slots are a relatively small portion of downtown slots which are dominated by penny and multi-denominational slots. The Boyd casinos and Golden Nugget have proportionately higher percentage of high dollar slots, but they would also house the majority of increased business downtown.
I think regional unity is important to give your region a draw. I see the dollar slots as sort of a "loss leader" (much like free odds in craps). As more patrons choose to stay in downtown, you will eventually get more people playing penny slots.
| DOWNTOWN | $1 slots | Total Slots | percentage |
|---|---|---|---|
| GOLDEN NUGGET | 155 | 1,340 | 11.6% |
| CALIFORNIA HOTEL AND CASINO | 181 | 1,069 | 16.9% |
| FREMONT HOTEL AND CASINO | 163 | 1,063 | 15.3% |
| MAIN STREET STATION HOTEL, CASINO AND BR | 72 | 873 | 8.2% |
| EL CORTEZ | 96 | 1,016 | 9.4% |
| BINION'S GAMBLING HALL & HOTEL | 41 | 825 | 5.0% |
| FITZGERALDS LAS VEGAS HOTEL AND CASINO | 71 | 985 | 7.2% |
| FOUR QUEENS HOTEL & CASINO | 38 | 1,026 | 3.7% |
| GOLD SPIKE HOTEL AND CASINO | 5 | 195 | 2.6% |
| MERMAIDS CASINO | 15 | 212 | 7.1% |
| LA BAYOU CASINO | 4 | 125 | 3.2% |
| GOLDEN GATE HOTEL & CASINO | 4 | 330 | 1.2% |
| LAS VEGAS CLUB HOTEL & CASINO | 40 | 700 | 5.7% |
| PLAZA HOTEL AND CASINO | 3 | 300 | 1.0% |
| STRATOSPHERE TOWER, CASINO & HOTEL | 49 | 1,075 | 4.6% |
| total | 937 | 11,134 | 8.4% |
Downtown is increasingly losing it's drawing power. The cheap rooms are now matched on the strip. The walking around outdoors will be matched by Project Linq in the older Ceasars properties on the strip. The Fremont Street Experience is less and less of an attraction to patrons used to giant screen movie theaters.
The guarantee of having a thousand $1 slot machines set on their lower possible setting would make downtown different from the strip, or any slot club in America.
The key word here being "stated". Some ten year old survey just isn't going to cut it. A survey of customer preferences won't cut it at all, it should be dollars not opinions. If its based on statistics that are ten years old then it might be literally true but still be misleading. Its the lack of disclosure that is the problem.Quote: pacomartinI think that is true of a most statistics, that they only refer to a stated time period.
I wrote up a draft of my letter of complaint to Gaming. This morning I sent it to a kind attorney here in town who believes in my cause and is helping me pro-bono. I'm awaiting his comments on the letter before sending it.
My next target will be the Palms. As you can see their web site has the following graphic in its rotation.
I'm sure the claim is true, but I'd still like to see some figures to back it up. Previously I wrote to the casino president, who once gave me his business card, but I have not heard back. I'll try to go by there today to make a cold inquiry and see what happens.
Looser than the clark county average? Okay... which YEAR? If they don't put it in there and put it in there prominently, then they are trying to hide something. Five years old? Five months old?
Now remember, they make changes from time to time in their own slots and they can't claim to be unaware of their own machines having adjustments made to them.
Note: I'd advise a bit of delay before contacting Gaming... it gives them time to pass things around internally and it looks better later than if you made an informal contact one day and went straight to the Gaming Board very promptly thereafter.
I too tend to think the statement is probably true. Its certainly publicly perceived as the Palms being very "loose" but if they want to say anything they better be truthful and disclose the basis for their statements.
Quote: FleaStiff"Recognized" .... by whom? When???
Looser than the clark county average? Okay... which YEAR? If they don't put it in there and put it in there prominently, then they are trying to hide something. Five years old? Five months old?
They are "recognized" by the Las Vegas Advisor, which I, of course, respect. However, I'd like to see the information made directly available to the public. About the time period, I don't know. The El Cortez figures span the period 4/1/10 to 3/31/11.
Quote: FleaStiffNote: I'd advise a bit of delay before contacting Gaming... it gives them time to pass things around internally and it looks better later than if you made an informal contact one day and went straight to the Gaming Board very promptly thereafter.
I agree. The Palms is a good property and I want to give them every chance to do the right thing. I'm afraid of what will become of it now that the Maloofs have lost 98% of it, and Harrah's owns 49% (someone correct my figures if in error), but that is another topic.
Quote: WizardAbout fine print, I didn't see any on any of the Vegas Club signs.
I was there in July, right after the March ruling, and specifically looked for the added fine print and did not see it. The only sign I saw with the "loosest" terminology was an outside banner facing the crosswalk coming from The Cal. There were several signs on various banks of machines that said the bank have been loosened by 40%.
I did indeed go to the Palms yesterday to inquire about their ad in my last post. They said they don't show the details to the public, but I should contact Anthony Curtis with the Las Vegas Advisor. Fortunately, he published my book, so I knew how to reach him. He said the Palms showed him specific figures but is not allowed to share them. What he could say is that for the 12-month period ending 8/31/10 the house edge was 4.54%.
So, here is what we know so far.
| Casino | House Edge | 12 Months Ending |
|---|---|---|
| El Cortez | 4.35% | 3/31/2011 |
| Palms | 4.54% | 8/31/2010 |
| Strip average | 7.35% | 6/30/2011 |
| Downtown average | 6.43% | 6/30/2011 |
| North Las Vegas average | 5.97% | 6/30/2011 |
| Clark County average | 6.47% | 6/30/2011 |
| State of Nevada | 6.26% | 6/30/2011 |
So, congratulations to the El Cortez for being the loosest of Vegas casinos to open their books. However, they win by 0.19% only, which is within the margin of error, given that results are based on actual results.
Regarding the Las Vegas Club, I sent a letter to Gaming last Wednesday. No response yet.
Quote: WizardWhat he could say is that for the 12-month period ending 8/31/10 the house edge was 4.54%.
So you would do better playing slots at the Palms than Roulette?
I assume that would depend on which slots, though...
Quote: NareedSo you would do better playing slots at the Palms than Roulette?
On average, yes. As you said, it would depend on the "slot." The casinos consider any machine a "slot" so they are mixing in video poker. Also consider you can play a slot once every six seconds, and roulette about once every 95 seconds. (source).
Quote: WizardOn average, yes. As you said, it would depend on the "slot." The casinos consider any machine a "slot" so they are mixing in video poker. Also consider you can play a slot once every six seconds, and roulette about once every 95 seconds. (source).
Ah, good. I forgot the casinos count the apples with the oranges. VP is not really slots.
It should be possible to count and catalog all of the Palms' VP, figure out their house edge and substract it from the posted figure. The Palms scores high in Vpfree, after all, #2 overall as of a split second ago. Still, not knowing how the house edge figure for slots was arrived at, it would be hard to say just what the HE is for slot slots (ie not counting VP as slots). But I'm willing to bet a quarter it's more than that of roulette.
For a moment there I thought I'd have to go look at the sky for porcine aerial traffic :P
Quote: Wizardand roulette about once every 95 seconds.
Thats a fast table. I see the average as 28-32 spins an hour
at a halfway busy table. At a busy table you're lucky to get 20. I
read that in the 1800's in France, you were lucky to get 6 spins
an hour when it was busy. There was always arguments on every
spin because they used money and not chips. There were always
people claiming bets they never made.
Quote: Wizard
Casino House Edge 12 Months Ending Strip average 7.35% 6/30/2011
Sands Bethlehem is the one casino in Pennsylvania where the slots are nearly as same as the Vegas strip average. Otherwise they are pretty tight as befitting fund raising agencies of the state (i.e. 55% tax rate) that are geographically protected from much competition.
| Casino | House Edge | 12 Months Ending |
|---|---|---|
| Sands Bethlehem | 7.13% | 6/30/2011 |
| Parx | 7.41% | 6/30/2011 |
| Presque Isle | 7.58% | 6/30/2011 |
| Mohegan Sun | 7.86% | 6/30/2011 |
| Pennsylvania Average | 7.89% | 6/30/2011 |
| The Rivers | 8.14% | 6/30/2011 |
| Harrah's Chester Downs | 8.46% | 6/30/2011 |
| SugarHouse | 8.65% | 6/30/2011 |
| Penn National | 9.00% | 6/30/2011 |
Someone with the Gaming Control Board called me in reference to my letter. To make a long story short, the Las Vegas Club has been saying they have the loosest slots downtown since March. At that time somebody else challenged the finding, and Gaming verified it to be true. Why the Las Vegas Club would stonewall me, and not be proud to quote Gaming on this, I am not sure.
So, I think the LVC deserves proper kudos for living up to their claim.
While I was on the phone with the agent I asked if I could have the win breakdown by casino that the LVC had. He gave me a name of someone in Carson City to ask about that, but I'm about 99% sure I'll get turned down.
Quote: WizardI have an update to make.
Someone with the Gaming Control Board called me in reference to my letter. To make a long story short, the Las Vegas Club has been saying they have the loosest slots downtown since March. At that time somebody else challenged the finding, and Gaming verified it to be true. Why the Las Vegas Club would stonewall me, and not be proud to quote Gaming on this, I am not sure.
So, I think the LVC deserves proper kudos for living up to their claim.
While I was on the phone with the agent I asked if I could have the win breakdown by casino that the LVC had. He gave me a name of someone in Carson City to ask about that, but I'm about 99% sure I'll get turned down.
Thanks for the update Wizard. It is curious that the LVC would not at least have a photocopy of Gaming's verification of their claim. Perhaps someone misplaced the original.
I am curious about the details:
-- What was the time period of the comparison?
-- Was the survey comprehensive? If not, which casinos were covered?
-- What is their definition of "Downtown"? Does it include nearby gas station and grocery store slots/VP?
I am suspicious because a comparison to a regional average is very different than having the absolute lowest hold, especially when there are joints with very high hold percentages jacking up the average.
Also, how long can they continue to advertise the claim? At some point it would be like hanging a "Grand Opening" banner on the Golden Gate.
