ten2win
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October 20th, 2010 at 4:05:09 PM permalink
I'm surprised there's been no thread started on this recent news, correct me if someone already posted.

Harrah's

There's always lots of bad-mouthing of Harrah's gaming and comp policies on many of the threads.

Is there a coming uptick in the economy?
I don't know everything but I know a lot.
JerryLogan
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October 20th, 2010 at 4:15:05 PM permalink
I didn't know about it but it's neither here nor there for me also. I wouldn't look at what Harrahs does as any official sign of the economy improving either.

However, with respect to the constant bad-mouthing of Harrahs, it's mainly done by people who whine about pay tables and Diamond Lounge policies, but blink and they'll produce their Seven Stars cards and tell the world about their upcoming stays.
CapnDave
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October 20th, 2010 at 4:41:23 PM permalink
I'd say, if Harrah's is going public with their stock, that means they need cash, and would be a sign that the economy (or, at least, the gaming industry) is NOT improving, and they feel like they've cut their costs as much as possible for now.

While I would not PLAY at Harrah's, I would certainly consider INVESTING in Harrah's (and no, I am neither diamond, not platinum, nor 7-star, nor any other non-plebian tier level there).
pacomartin
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October 20th, 2010 at 7:29:37 PM permalink
Just a reminder:

19 Dec, 2006 Agreement and Plan of Merger written
05 Apr 2007 Harrah's stockholders approved the merger and merger agreement at a special meeting
28 Jan 2008 Harrah's Entertainment, Inc. Announces Completion Of Merger (stock no longer traded)

All these plans were made at a time when Vegas and Harrah's were booming. As a result of this merger and taking the
company private Harrah's was loaded with $19 billion in debt.

The taking of the company private coincided with the 2nd mont of the recession, and the 3rd month of downturn in Vegas
gaming revenue.

In the last three years, the only move that Harrah's was able to do was to acquire Planet Hollywood as it was going bankrupt.

All plans to expand into Asia or to improve properties in Vegas were put on hold due to the crushing debt.

Do you really want to consider investing in this company? All that debt is still there, and Wynn and Sands Corporation have a
huge head start in Asia. Are you convinced that building some new restaurants and a ferris wheel will turn around Vegas?

Total Revenue
CY2007 revenue $10,825.2 profits $619.4 Assets $23,357.7
CY2008 revenue $10,127.0 profits -$5,197.2 Assets $31,048.6 BIG WRITE OFFS THIS YEAR
CY2009 $ 8,907.4 profits 827.6 Assets $28,979.2
CY2010 revenue down 2.6% from 2009

Although August was extremely good new for Vegas gaming revenue, you may want at least two back to back good months.
Nareed
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October 20th, 2010 at 8:05:29 PM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

Do you really want to consider investing in this company? All that debt is still there, and Wynn and Sands Corporation have a huge head start in Asia. Are you convinced that building some new restaurants and a ferris wheel will turn around Vegas?



The question, for those considering investing in Harrah's, is whether a few restaurants and a Ferris wheel will turn around Harrah's. What happens to the rest of Vegas is of secondary importance.

As to the rest I'm not an expert. But if the stock goes cheaply in the IPO, then it's a small risk to invest in it for the long term.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
Wizard
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October 20th, 2010 at 9:27:42 PM permalink
I owned Harrah's stock for about two years from 2000 to 2002. During that time it did extremely well, and kept doing well after I foolishly (in retrospect) sold it. I criticize Harrah's frequently for lousy game rules and penny pinching. However, it is hard to argue with success.
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ElectricDreams
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October 20th, 2010 at 9:29:56 PM permalink
Along with the crushing debt, Harrah's seems awfully heavily invested in one market: Las Vegas. Of course, Vegas is probably the second best gaming market out there, but that "putting all your eggs into one basket" thing comes to mind.

I've actually been considering buying some shares of a gaming company recently; mostly as a personal hobby since my 401(k) and IRA are rather boring (decidedly much less riskier than individual stocks, but still boring). Harrah's gargantuan debt is a bit of a concern, and like I mentioned above, I don't like the idea of choking up Vegas with even more casinos, so I've been looking at some other ones; Ameristar Casinos has a local casino, and they seem stable enough, and Penn National Gaming is building a casino in the area right now. Unfortunately, Penn also apparently had a net loss of about $265 million last year...
mkl654321
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October 20th, 2010 at 9:42:50 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I owned Harrah's stock for about two years from 2000 to 2002. During that time it did extremely well, and kept doing well after I foolishly (in retrospect) sold it. I criticize Harrah's frequently for lousy game rules and penny pinching. However, it is hard to argue with success.



I don't give them all that much credit. Any casino that DIDN'T make a killing during the boom years (roughly, 1995-2004, with a burp at 9/11) would had to have been run by retarded chimpanzees. The key is what they did when things started to go south--they kept up their strategy of trying to buy every casino on the planet, with leveraged debt that was more and more smelly with each new acquisition, as their debt ratio ballooned. At last Gary Loveman wept, because in the manner of Alexander the Great, there were no more casinos to conquer. Then the infallible strategy of drastically increasing the price of everything and making the gambling orders of magnitude worse was implemented.

The strategy of buy-it-and-gouge-'em-to-keep-the-cash-flow-going would have worked if the market had continued to grow at the pace it had in the boom years. But of course, it never could have (recession or no recession). The debt chickens came home to roost. It is kind of ironic that Harrah's committed the same blunder that mortgage banks did--they assumed that growth would continue indefinitely, at the same rapid pace, and that that growth would help to cover a multitude of fiscal sins. Well, when a Martingale like that collapses, it collapses big time. Harrah's is STILL over $31 billion in the hole. That number would give me pause before I bought any of their stock.

There's a suspicious view I generally have of any IPO. Up to that point, the company considered itself valuable enough that it didn't want to sell any of itself to the public. Now, it suddenly does want to. If the IPO is at, say, $50, that means that Harrah's would rather have $50 than one share of its stock. That, in turn, tells me that I, as well, would rather have the $50.
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JerryLogan
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October 21st, 2010 at 3:36:27 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I owned Harrah's stock for about two years from 2000 to 2002. During that time it did extremely well, and kept doing well after I foolishly (in retrospect) sold it. I criticize Harrah's frequently for lousy game rules and penny pinching. However, it is hard to argue with success.



I see their penny pinching in the form of reduced benefits in their player's lounges (or their closing of such) and their very poor pay tables on the vp games that rival out-of-the-way Indian casinos one might stop at on a trip to Grandma's. That said, I keep my arguing down to a manageable level because of their very generous diamond card benefits, where they offer free flights to several of their properties around the country, gift cards, cash coupons, etc. etc. If you're an AP then all this may still not be attractive to you, but to a player like myself these unexpected perks do make up for their crummy games.

I regularly get offers to fly 2 people to AC, Reno, New Orleans, and Laughlin with the rooms comped of course, but I only have time to take advantage of maybe one of them a year. I do think that they are taking on too much in this economy though, so I would not be buying any of their stock these days.
DJTeddyBear
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October 21st, 2010 at 4:44:10 AM permalink
Quote: ElectricDreams

Harrah's seems awfully heavily invested in one market: Las Vegas. Of course, Vegas is probably the second best gaming market out there, but that "putting all your eggs into one basket" thing comes to mind

For the record, according to the Harrah's website, they have 8 hotel casinos in Las Vegas, out of 34 nationwide.

While I agree that there is not enough balance, I simply wanted to point out that Harrah's has several 'baskets'.
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FleaStiff
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October 21st, 2010 at 5:44:24 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

it is hard to argue with success.

True, but in a world of asset plays, leveraged buy-outs and various accounting shenanigans, I sure would always wonder if the final move will be a corporate name change to Sheep Shearers International and the bankruptcy papers will be signed by Hugh Suckers.
Nareed
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October 21st, 2010 at 7:17:34 AM permalink
Reagrdless of how bad Harrah's gaming is, they've been quite innovative in other areas:

1) No resort fees. I don't think this imapcts the final price customers pay, but a lot of peopel hate resort fees passionately.

2) The Buffet of Buffets 24-hour pass. This has been extensively discussed elsewhere.

3) I forget the name, if any, but now they have a multiple show pass for 24 hours at all their properties. it's not as simple as it sounds. The pass gives you access to several shows, and discount pricing to the better/more popular shows. It may be too complicated to be a hit, the way the buffet pass ahs been, but they're trying something new.
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FleaStiff
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October 21st, 2010 at 8:24:44 AM permalink
>No resort fees. ... but a lot of peopel hate resort fees passionately.
Precisely. Its a marketing tool and a slogan on their advertisements. It is good to be aware of what really and truly riles your customers... and avoid it.
I wonder if its innovation to fail to impose fees? Or just innovation to trumpet about it?

>The Buffet of Buffets 24-hour pass.
Yeah, well those who like casino hopping or those who simply go do other things somewhere will be drawn "back into the fold".
So its a way of letting the sheep wander about into different paddocks but still be likely to wind up at the shearing shed.

>a multiple show pass for 24 hours at all their properties.
Yeah, more complex to market but people will get tired and not go to all of them anyway.

The main thing is that even on their room size and designs way back in the late sixties, they always experimented and implemented the latest findings. Its a sharp company but its one of those "count your fingers and rings after shaking hands" type companies.
ElectricDreams
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October 21st, 2010 at 8:30:26 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

For the record, according to the Harrah's website, they have 8 hotel casinos in Las Vegas, out of 34 nationwide.

While I agree that there is not enough balance, I simply wanted to point out that Harrah's has several 'baskets'.



That's true. There's a Harrah's in town, and one a few hours north in Omaha, for example. I guess I may have been a little hyperbolic in my statement. Harrah's really seems to be relying on the increase in gaming in Vegas to pay off debt, though, so I guess that's how I made my decision.

I don't know... I'm swinging back and fourth about the IPO. They are the largest gaming company out there... they have to be doing something right, don't they?
JerryLogan
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October 21st, 2010 at 8:33:49 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

>No resort fees. ... but a lot of peopel hate resort fees passionately.
Precisely. Its a marketing tool and a slogan on their advertisements. It is good to be aware of what really and truly riles your customers... and avoid it.
I wonder if its innovation to fail to impose fees? Or just innovation to trumpet about it?

>The Buffet of Buffets 24-hour pass.
Yeah, well those who like casino hopping or those who simply go do other things somewhere will be drawn "back into the fold".
So its a way of letting the sheep wander about into different paddocks but still be likely to wind up at the shearing shed.

>a multiple show pass for 24 hours at all their properties.
Yeah, more complex to market but people will get tired and not go to all of them anyway.

The main thing is that even on their room size and designs way back in the late sixties, they always experimented and implemented the latest findings. Its a sharp company but its one of those "count your fingers and rings after shaking hands" type companies.



You're doing the same thing you accuse Harrah's of doing with the resort fees: You're patting them on the back and stabbing them at the same time.

They didn't get involved in those dumb resort fees, aka FAT, but the market demanded they voice their stance on it as the largest casino operator in the world.
There's nothing wrong with their buffet idea either. Why are you ragging on them for doing something business-related for the purpose of generating more revenue? What are they supposed to do in your mind, offer a free buffet all day long for everyone? and even if they did you'd find fault with that.
Your final 2 assertions have no basis in fact. Why did you make such a stupid post?
pacomartin
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October 21st, 2010 at 8:45:34 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

For the record, according to the Harrah's website, they have 8 hotel casinos in Las Vegas, out of 34 nationwide.

While I agree that there is not enough balance, I simply wanted to point out that Harrah's has several 'baskets'.



The Las Vegas and Atlantic city basket contains 49% of the slot machines, 59% of the table games, and 78% of the hotel rooms.
These two market are also responsible for 53% of the total revenue of the company.

Atlantic City is their biggest source of gaming revenue (even bigger than Vegas).
AC dropped by 17% last year in gaming revenue, while Vegas dropped by 14%.

While "putting all your eggs into one basket" is probably not appropriate, they could more diversified.
Of course, with Harrah's responsible for almost half the gaming revenue in Atlantic City, if they try to diversify into Macau,
then they might face the same issues with the NJ gaming commission as MGM-Mirage.
Nareed
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October 21st, 2010 at 9:09:02 AM permalink
Quote: pacomartin

Of course, with Harrah's responsible for almost half the gaming revenue in Atlantic City, if they try to diversify into Macau,
then they might face the same issues with the NJ gaming commission as MGM-Mirage.



Sure. But wouldn't an Imperial Palace hotel and casino in China be a hoot?
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
Nareed
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October 21st, 2010 at 9:15:48 AM permalink
Quote: FleaStiff

>The Buffet of Buffets 24-hour pass.
Yeah, well those who like casino hopping or those who simply go do other things somewhere will be drawn "back into the fold".
So its a way of letting the sheep wander about into different paddocks but still be likely to wind up at the shearing shed.



You falsely assume people won't or can't think. I made use of the buffet pass without playing any more than i wanted to at Harrah's properties. I'm sure other people do as well.

Quote:

>a multiple show pass for 24 hours at all their properties.
Yeah, more complex to market but people will get tired and not go to all of them anyway.



I won't comment because I haven't analyzed the deal to figure out whether it's good or not. The buffet deal is great if you time it right and know how to move about.

Quote:

The main thing is that even on their room size and designs way back in the late sixties, they always experimented and implemented the latest findings.



That's patently false, as several of their hotels date from much later (Rio and Paris to name two). And there have been renovations and additions, too. I doubt the newest towers at Caesars are built on the same floor plan as the original hotel.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
DJTeddyBear
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October 21st, 2010 at 9:38:27 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

Sure. But wouldn't an Imperial Palace hotel and casino in China be a hoot?

Are you refering to a dumpy half star 'resort' with five star neighbors, or an Asian themed resort?
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
Nareed
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October 21st, 2010 at 9:42:49 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Are you refering to a dumpy half star 'resort' with five star neighbors, or an Asian themed resort?



Both.
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bluefire
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October 27th, 2010 at 11:48:17 PM permalink
Personally, I love Harrah's. I've played at different casinos on the strip & downtown, and I've had the most consistent experience at Harrah's run casinos. Every single dealer I've ever had at a Harrah's owned casino has been a ton of fun, and the slots have been enjoyable.

They are also really good at marketing to my age group (20-30). When I went to PH to get engaged back in August, I reached out to them on twitter and they comped me a pool cabana the day after in celebration. They've advertised all over the sites I visit, and they have comped me rooms at PH (my favorite casino/hotel) for my trip in December even though I've lost all of $500 total over my past two trips.

Everyone that went with me the last time was extremely impressed with the service they got at Harrah's casinos and how all employees went out of their way to make the experience fun.

The one thing that everyone agreed is that the worse odds at those casinos don't matter as much if the experience of gambling is a ton more fun, and everyone was surprised at how much of a difference dealers made. As long as Harrah's keeps hiring the same type of people that they do now, they'll really connect with my demographic.

It's really made me interested in investing with them.
MathExtremist
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October 28th, 2010 at 8:08:16 AM permalink
Quote: Nareed

several of their hotels date from much later (Rio and Paris to name two). And there have been renovations and additions, too. I doubt the newest towers at Caesars are built on the same floor plan as the original hotel.



For the record, both Rio and Paris were built by others (Marnell and Bally/Park Place, respectively) and then acquired by Harrah's after the fact. So was Caesars, for that matter. In fact, I don't believe Harrah's has built *any* of the properties they own in Las Vegas -- even the Harrah's Las Vegas was an acquisition.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
SOOPOO
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October 28th, 2010 at 8:22:36 AM permalink
Bluefire hit the nail on the head. The number of players who care about VP odds tables, i would guess, is an insignificant percentage of their business. I always feel I am treated well at Rio/Harrah's/Paris and the room comps far outweigh the low level of comps my meager play generates. Now they will even comp me midweek at Caesars as a $25 pai gow player. I think that Harrah's business model makes perfect sense. Essentially they are saying- advantage players stay away- non advantage players- come stay with us for free!!
FleaStiff
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October 28th, 2010 at 8:31:31 AM permalink
>Every single dealer I've ever had at a Harrah's owned casino has been a ton of fun, and the slots have been enjoyable.
Congratulations.
>The worse odds don't matter as much the experience of gambling ...
Yes. Sort of like these trendy restaurants or trendy nightclubs, its the "experience" that counts.

>everyone was surprised at how much of a difference dealers made.
Well, slot machines don't have dealers so if Harrah's income is largely due to slot action, dealers may not be critical.
How would you describe these Dealers Who Make A Difference? Is it that they are pleasant and interact or what?

>It's really made me interested in investing with them.
Investment decisions are usually based on the bottom line but do you want to put your money into The Evil Empire?
dlevinelaw
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October 28th, 2010 at 8:41:08 AM permalink
I've had good and bad dealers everywhere- but Harrah's room prices, at least in Vegas, are still hard to beat, at any range (IP to Caesars).

The bottom line MGM properties (excalibur, circus circus) seem to march right in line with say the IP or Flamingo- but the resort fee always makes them come out more.

Plus, even if you are just a TR member, and are not entitled to any comps, you get discounted rooms at Harrah's, just by logging in. I am staying at Paris soon for $50 a night, compared to $60+ for Monte Carlo for the same period, or $55 for luxor, or $90 for mirage. Just saying.
JerryLogan
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October 28th, 2010 at 8:43:19 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

Bluefire hit the nail on the head. The number of players who care about VP odds tables, i would guess, is an insignificant percentage of their business.



Guess again. On VPFREE, where all the supposed AP's and big names hang out, plenty of people come on and gripe about the vp paytables (which I agree are terrible, without exception) but then these big rollers are always bragging about having 7-Stars cards, which naturally means they play at Harrahs casinos regardless. They've been called hypocrites and liars, but they ignore that just so they can blab about all their "comped" trips to different harrahs locations around the country, the yearly 7-Stars get-togethers, and all their nonsense that just makes them all look so stupid.
thecesspit
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October 28th, 2010 at 10:21:35 AM permalink
Quote: JerryLogan

Guess again. On VPFREE, where all the supposed AP's and big names hang out, plenty of people come on and gripe about the vp paytables (which I agree are terrible, without exception) but then these big rollers are always bragging about having 7-Stars cards, which naturally means they play at Harrahs casinos regardless. They've been called hypocrites and liars, but they ignore that just so they can blab about all their "comped" trips to different harrahs locations around the country, the yearly 7-Stars get-togethers, and all their nonsense that just makes them all look so stupid.



VP Free players are almost certainly a insignificant part of Harrah's business.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
JerryLogan
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October 28th, 2010 at 10:59:26 AM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

VP Free players are almost certainly a insignificant part of Harrah's business.



Not so sure. There's over 10,000 of them and many hold 7-Stars & Diamond cards. I also would think it's impossible to gauge how many players don't care about the pay tables. If we did it from watching then it's got to be pretty small.
AZDuffman
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October 31st, 2010 at 6:03:34 AM permalink
Quote: JerryLogan

Not so sure. There's over 10,000 of them and many hold 7-Stars & Diamond cards. I also would think it's impossible to gauge how many players don't care about the pay tables. If we did it from watching then it's got to be pretty small.



I think most players are barely aware the pay table exists. I know when I try to explain it to someone who doesn't know they usually seem to listen then go play "their" machine or on some other hunch. Here in Pittsburgh I found the pay table changes when the bet level changes on the very same machine. (Locals who want to try, you have to rase the bet $1 to go from really bad to mostly bad.) I was very happy with myself when I figured this out, but no one seemed to care at all except on a board like here.

Those of us who practice AP seem to get it in our heads everyone cares, but they do not. Like in 1972 when McGovern Voters could not understand why he lost as they said, "But everyone I knew voted for him." Though I am happy to have my AP friends, if I was the GM of a Harrah's property I would never base my business plan on the AP set. Plenty of fools who will say, "I'll play this machine instead--prettier colors."
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SOOPOO
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October 31st, 2010 at 6:16:23 AM permalink
By definition, you do NOT want AP players in your casino. But JL has a good question... Why would a casino allow a VP pay table to exceed 100%? I trust the Wiz and others here that they exist, but if I was the casino exec I would not have them in my casino....
AZDuffman
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October 31st, 2010 at 7:01:31 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

By definition, you do NOT want AP players in your casino.



No, you do not. But at the same time, the number of AP players out there is so small relative to total players that little time should be wasted on keeping them out. In fact, having a reputation of letting AP players havde a fair shot could well bring in more people who think they can beat the house since so few really can.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
mkl654321
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October 31st, 2010 at 10:09:54 AM permalink
Quote: SOOPOO

By definition, you do NOT want AP players in your casino. But JL has a good question... Why would a casino allow a VP pay table to exceed 100%? I trust the Wiz and others here that they exist, but if I was the casino exec I would not have them in my casino....



Real simple--those machines are still profitable. To exceed 100% return, you generally have to know the optimum strategy perfectly, and implement it flawlessly. Those are two hurdles that the vast majority of players don't manage to clear, so they play at a disadvantage. This is true for a large number of players who do try to memorize and implement the strategies--it's far from easy. And of course, one of the Clueless Corps could sit down at that fullpay machine, and get butchered by it.

Fullpay VP isn't fullpay unless you play it correctly, and many of the plays are counterintuitive. For example, at 10/7 Double Bonus, given the hand of Ah, 5h, 6h, 9c, 2s, you hold the three-flush, not just the Ace. I've watched players over the years, and I'd say that maybe one in twenty makes the right play in this situation--which comes up a lot. And these were Vegas locals who presumably would be more skilled than the average Joe.

The Fiesta in North Vegas, before it got eaten by Stations, had pretty much nothing BUT fullpay video poker for the first five years of its existence. It made money hand over fist, and bankrolled Maloof's acquisition of the Palms.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
ElectricDreams
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November 18th, 2010 at 12:08:52 PM permalink
Just an update: It looks like shares of Harrah's (trading under Caesar's Entertainment Corporation, CZR) will be available for trading as soon as tomorrow.

The article I linked advises against investing at CZR, and it makes some good points, some of which we've already discussed in this thread.

This Barron's author reccomends against it as well, and I've read at least one blog advising shorting the stock, too. Of course, literally anyone can write a blog, so I'd take that last advice with a grain of salt.

I doubt, at the very least, it will have as strong an opening as GM has experienced so far.
ElectricDreams
ElectricDreams
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November 19th, 2010 at 7:21:10 AM permalink
Just an update: Harrah's IPO has been canceled, claiming "unfavorable market conditions".

Oh well. We'll just have to wait until investors opinion of Harrah's improves enough that they could actually sell the stock. Until next time!
JerryLogan
JerryLogan
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November 19th, 2010 at 9:29:45 AM permalink
Quote: AZDuffman

No, you do not. But at the same time, the number of AP players out there is so small relative to total players that little time should be wasted on keeping them out. In fact, having a reputation of letting AP players havde a fair shot could well bring in more people who think they can beat the house since so few really can.



Singer states that "AP" is just a state of mind and I agree with him. When you consider the reason for all those promotions for slot players are there just to get as many of them in as possible, it can't be anything else BUT a state of mind to feel good about oneself. Everyone I run into in LV says they're an AP. They think that impresses a vp junkie such as myself.
pacomartin
pacomartin
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November 21st, 2010 at 12:07:37 AM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

For the record, both Rio and Paris were built by others (Marnell and Bally/Park Place, respectively) and then acquired by Harrah's after the fact. So was Caesars, for that matter. In fact, I don't believe Harrah's has built *any* of the properties they own in Las Vegas -- even the Harrah's Las Vegas was an acquisition.


Yes indeed, all of Harrah's properties in Las Vegas were acquired, and none were built. The suspended hotel tower in Ceasars is the first building in the city built from scratch.

I believe that of the 53 casino properties they own, only a few were built from scratch. And that was entirely pre-Gary Loveman.

That is one reason why I was not surprised with the idea of them building a casino from the ground up in Philadelphia (and Ohio). I think that investors were also not impressed as Harrah's has cancelled it's IPO because they feel that no one will buy the stock for enough money.
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