End of the road for Lake Mead??
There are reservoirs near me that fill and empty each year and I try to take a convertible ride to see it empty by October. Been there between early July and late August and it is wild how the shoreline recedes. Then I look at Mead and it is hard to tell how much it has fallen based on the sheer size of the thing.
That it is falling so much is kind of logical. This is a desert, and the entire western half of the USA was known for low rainfall in the 1800s. The way I see it we had unusual high rainfall for most of the 1900s and are now back to what is normal. At this point it might take 20 years of above average rainfall to get things back to the "normal" we created. Lots is going to have to change from AZ to CA. Vegas will have to change.
What say you?
It's the electricity problem that is preventing new industry from moving here to Nevada and even to other states.
It's the real reason companies are relocating.
The next "in demand market" for development will be the Northeast where there's plenty of water.
The rust belt will rise again.
Quote: AlanMendelsonThe coming electricity crisis is a huge issue that has gotten too little attention.
It's the electricity problem that is preventing new industry from moving here to Nevada and even to other states.
It's the real reason companies are relocating.
The next "in demand market" for development will be the Northeast where there's plenty of water.
The rust belt will rise again.
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IIRC when I took the tour back then they said Vegas did not get even one watt much less a jigawatt of electricity from Hoover Dam. Went to CA and I forget where else.
Columbus got that Intel plant, from what I hear partly because chips need lots of water to make. Up here in the rust belt we have been saying water will be the thing, eventually. Won't help me much in my lifetime, but the next generation may be the first to net migrate east.
From their website:
"Hoover Dam generates, on average, about 4 billion kilowatt-hours of hydroelectric power each year for use in Nevada, Arizona, and California - enough to serve 1.3 million people. From 1939 to 1949, Hoover Powerplant was the world's largest hydroelectric installation; today, it is still one of the country's largest."
The City Of Los Angeles has many power plants using nat gas.
Quote: AlanMendelson23% of Lake Meads electricity is used by Nevada says the operator of Hoover Dam.
From their website:
"Hoover Dam generates, on average, about 4 billion kilowatt-hours of hydroelectric power each year for use in Nevada, Arizona, and California - enough to serve 1.3 million people. From 1939 to 1949, Hoover Powerplant was the world's largest hydroelectric installation; today, it is still one of the country's largest."
The City Of Los Angeles has many power plants using nat gas.
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Has been 15 years since I was there, Maybe they said Vegas didn't draw from it or maybe it changed or I could be remembering wrong. Either way if it hits deadpool it will not be good times.
Solar Power Leads Latest Federal Push for Clean Energy
…but is it too little, too late? What I mean is, will contractors who do solar fittings be able to keep up with demand AND do quality, lasting work?
My TV just interrupted me with a scheduled Emergency Alert System Test.
So yeah, if the power is going to go out first, you'll go straight to wide-region blackouts that won't end.
Why not desalinate seawater?Quote: ChumpChangeWhy fix the power supply when you're about to run out of water too? Hoover Dam could go below 950 feet 2 summers from now, and run out of water downstream one summer after that. Of course it all depends on the winter season and no amount of conservation will save the southwest at this point. They can try. But they could just spike water & power bills until only the rich and their mansions remain.
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Quote: Ace2Why not desalinate seawater?
At this point that is very expensive and not viable for all the agriculture which is what uses by far the most of Lake Mead water.
Israel has done well with desalination though. To the point they are helping their sworn enemies with water. Perhaps the southwest can learn from them.
Quote: AlanMendelsonThe coming electricity crisis is a huge issue that has gotten too little attention.
It's the electricity problem that is preventing new industry from moving here to Nevada and even to other states.
It's the real reason companies are relocating.
The next "in demand market" for development will be the Northeast where there's plenty of water.
The rust belt will rise again.
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There is no reason to panic. At least there is no push to eliminate ICE vehicles, and force everyone to drive EVs. Our leaders are too smart to do something like that.
Quote: GundyQuote: AlanMendelsonThe coming electricity crisis is a huge issue that has gotten too little attention.
It's the electricity problem that is preventing new industry from moving here to Nevada and even to other states.
It's the real reason companies are relocating.
The next "in demand market" for development will be the Northeast where there's plenty of water.
The rust belt will rise again.
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There is no reason to panic. At least there is no push to eliminate ICE vehicles, and force everyone to drive EVs. Our leaders are too smart to do something like that.
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Our leaders missed the boat twenty years ago.
When I went to COLLEGE in the early 1970s the experts knew the southwest would run out of water and power. Three Mile Island and the anti nuclear power groups sealed our fate. It's too late to fix.
This suggestion meets with surprising political resistance; someone told me he read that there is now discussion about pumping water west from the Mississippi River.
Whatever, the water is there, and if you only pump it during times of high / excess flow there should be no negative effect on the fisheries in the Columbia.
“What is the status of Phoenix's water supply?
Phoenix's water supply is in very good shape. Even though Phoenix remains in a regional period of climatic drought that began in 2000, our water supply is not dependent on annual precipitation events. Our water supply originates as snow pack far north and east of the Valley that melts and flows into vast reservoirs that store it for delivery during low-flow years
How can Phoenix 's water supply be so good, when I keep hearing about drought and other areas that are considering water restrictions?
Phoenix has had a hundred years of sure-handed water management. Extremely wise planning for drought in the desert and the fact that we have several water sources has kept Phoenix way ahead of the drought curve for decades. Phoenix diversified its water portfolio long ago and amended the city code to promote reuse of water and water conservation
Are mandatory water use restrictions coming soon? What happens to our water supply if drought continues for a long time?
Even though it is usually dry in the Valley, Phoenix will not need to impose mandatory water use restrictions in the foreseeable future. If, during the next ten-to-fifteen years, the west were to experience widespread drought conditions that are as bad or worse than we’ve seen over the past fifteen years,, the reduction of available water supplies on the Colorado and Salt/Verde Rivers may reach a point where Phoenix would initiate mandatory water use restrictions that go beyond our traditional low water use lifestyle. This gives everyone time to start preparing for such an event. Continued wise planning and water conservation remain big parts of ensuring our future water supply, especially if the regional drought lasts for a long time. Phoenix will have the water it needs, but none to waste…with your help.”
Quote: Ace2Except from City of Phoenix site
“What is the status of Phoenix's water supply?
Phoenix's water supply is in very good shape. Even though Phoenix remains in a regional period of climatic drought that began in 2000, our water supply is not dependent on annual precipitation events. Our water supply originates as snow pack far north and east of the Valley that melts and flows into vast reservoirs that store it for delivery during low-flow years
How can Phoenix 's water supply be so good, when I keep hearing about drought and other areas that are considering water restrictions?
Phoenix has had a hundred years of sure-handed water management. Extremely wise planning for drought in the desert and the fact that we have several water sources has kept Phoenix way ahead of the drought curve for decades. Phoenix diversified its water portfolio long ago and amended the city code to promote reuse of water and water conservation
Are mandatory water use restrictions coming soon? What happens to our water supply if drought continues for a long time?
Even though it is usually dry in the Valley, Phoenix will not need to impose mandatory water use restrictions in the foreseeable future. If, during the next ten-to-fifteen years, the west were to experience widespread drought conditions that are as bad or worse than we’ve seen over the past fifteen years,, the reduction of available water supplies on the Colorado and Salt/Verde Rivers may reach a point where Phoenix would initiate mandatory water use restrictions that go beyond our traditional low water use lifestyle. This gives everyone time to start preparing for such an event. Continued wise planning and water conservation remain big parts of ensuring our future water supply, especially if the regional drought lasts for a long time. Phoenix will have the water it needs, but none to waste…with your help.”
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One thing I wished they would do was to prohibit HOAs from mandating lawn watering. Such a waste.
Have the greens made out of synthetic material and keep the rough rough, but closely mowed.
Ugly, but it could work.
Quote: MrVProhibit golf courses from watering.
Have the greens made out of synthetic material and keep the rough rough, but closely mowed.
Ugly, but it could work.
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Synthetic turf? That's an interesting problem.
I'm not saying its impossible but I'm wondering about the cost.
Artificial grass is like carpet. The ground underneath must be prepared to hold it. Then the carpet must be installed and literally nailed into the ground.
Imagine being a course owner who had to replace sections of synthetic turf after divots rip into them?
I wonder what the cost would be?
I'm going to have to do a search for artificial grass golf courses. I do know of putting greens but you're not chopping into a putting green with a putter.
Gotta research this.
Update and it didnt take long. From Golf Digest:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.golfdigest.com/story/a-full-18-hole-course-of-synthetic-turf-we-surveyed-20-course-architects-about-the-future-of-design-here-are-their-predictions/amp
Quote: Ace2Why not desalinate seawater?Quote: ChumpChangeWhy fix the power supply when you're about to run out of water too? Hoover Dam could go below 950 feet 2 summers from now, and run out of water downstream one summer after that. Of course it all depends on the winter season and no amount of conservation will save the southwest at this point. They can try. But they could just spike water & power bills until only the rich and their mansions remain.
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Expense -it takes a lot of heat/electricity. And disposal of the waste salt.
That said, water is the much bigger problem than the electricity generated at Hoover dam. We can't conserve our way out of this. In my opinion, we need to cut the water subsidy for desert farming in California. Of course, California will oppose that.
It's time the federal government prioritizes this problem as the south-western states are unlikely to agree on anything.
Quote: WizardSince this topic is very pertinent to Las Vegas, discussion of it is fine.
That said, water is the much bigger problem than the electricity generated at Hoover dam. We can't conserve our way out of this. In my opinion, we need to cut the water subsidy for desert farming in California. Of course, California will oppose that.
It's time the federal government prioritizes this problem as the south-western states are unlikely to agree on anything.
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I'm really surprised that you say water is a much bigger problem than the electricity generated. These problems are equal. And they go hand in hand.
For a start i suspect you are unaware of the rolling blackout problems in California?
Quote: WizardSince this topic is very pertinent to Las Vegas, discussion of it is fine.
[...]
It's time the federal government prioritizes this problem as the south-western states are unlikely to agree on anything.
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The docket of the Supreme Court of the US is chock-full of original jurisdiction cases all related to water, and the Colorado River features greatly in a lot of them.
IANAL, but I do wander through SCOTUSblog a lot.
As far as the Feds are concerned, there's a thicket of "compacts, federal laws, court decisions and decrees, contracts and regulatory guidelines collectively known as 'the Law of the River'" - Wikipedia entry for "Colorado River Compact" I'm not sure what the Feds can realistically do to change anything. The Compact went into operation in 1922, and involves seven US states. Mexico is mentioned (though obviously not a part of the Compact)
Today's Las Vegas Advisor Question of the Day is "With increasing water shortages, which may also lead to reduced power capability, when do you think Las Vegas will no longer be viable? Especially considering the amount of both used along the Strip." Lots of stats, lots of quotes from Important Officials. Informative for those of us getting hammered by storms every day out East.
One of the things to remember is the profile of Lake Mead. The walls of the lake aren't vertical, but do slope inward. Thus, the volume required to drop the lake level a foot becomes less and less the further the level drops. Yeah, it's really tough right now, and nobody knows if the Lake is going to dead pool or when.
"The surface of Lake Mead, the country’s largest reservoir, now stands at 1,045 feet above sea level. It’s forecast to drop more than 26 feet by July 2023. If Lake Mead were to keep dropping, the level would eventually approach a danger zone at 895 feet,..."
That gives us about 6 years.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YYAMlncQ_M
Quote: AlanMendelson
For a start i suspect you are unaware of the rolling blackout problems in California?
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Most of that is California's own doing. Watch "Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room" for some details. Back around 2000 CA "deregulated" electricity, the quotes there because the deregulation created lots of regulations that could be worked for a killer profit. It was complex with traders staying up all night finding loopholes for the next day. They worked the system well, like a concierge at a Vegas hotel reserving every table in the popular steakhouse so guests could not get a table. Then they see him and he "sees what he can do" and when he does get them a table they give a huge tip. All for the table shortage the same guy created.
IMHO the problem is the entire southwest which I will include CA as a part of is unsustainable. Phoenix, Las Vegas, and Albuquerque are all in a desert, not fit for large scale human settlement. All that agriculture in CA is fed by the water from Lake Mead, which we are seeing worked for 100 years but you can only play that game for so long. Finally, coastal CA is simply overpopulated to the point it does not function properly.
Perhaps lots of that agriculture moves to places like Mississippi where there is plenty of water. Vegas is constricted from sprawl by federal land holdings around it. Phoenix can sprawl forever but one day that will end. It is already getting simply too large and too gridlocked.
Time will tell.
Quote: WizardSince this topic is very pertinent to Las Vegas, discussion of it is fine.
That said, water is the much bigger problem than the electricity generated at Hoover dam. We can't conserve our way out of this. In my opinion, we need to cut the water subsidy for desert farming in California. Of course, California will oppose that.
It's time the federal government prioritizes this problem as the south-western states are unlikely to agree on anything.
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It is tougher with water than electricity. Electricity you just make more. Water is what it is. I agree on the CA farming. You have to drive across CA to really appreciate how much of that there is.
Quote: AZDuffmanQuote: AlanMendelson
For a start i suspect you are unaware of the rolling blackout problems in California?
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Most of that is California's own doing. Watch "Enron: The Smartest Guys in the Room" for some details. Back around 2000 CA "deregulated" electricity, the quotes there because the deregulation created lots of regulations that could be worked for a killer profit.
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Ummm... 2000 was 22 years ago.
The problem today is too much growth, too little investment in new facilities and the closure of a nuclear power plant in the LA metro area.
(Doesn't sound like a great option though)
Quote: rxwineDo all the homeless people leave Vegas in the Summer? Someone must be living without electricity.
(Doesn't sound like a great option though)
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We are all just so spoiled it is ridiculous. For how many thousands of years did people live without electricity and running water and somehow they managed to live on.
Quote: DRichQuote: rxwineDo all the homeless people leave Vegas in the Summer? Someone must be living without electricity.
(Doesn't sound like a great option though)
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We are all just so spoiled it is ridiculous. For how many thousands of years did people live without electricity and running water and somehow they managed to live on.
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I think you can live without running water. Access to water. Now that's rather difficult.
Quote: rxwineQuote: DRichQuote: rxwineDo all the homeless people leave Vegas in the Summer? Someone must be living without electricity.
(Doesn't sound like a great option though)
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We are all just so spoiled it is ridiculous. For how many thousands of years did people live without electricity and running water and somehow they managed to live on.
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I think you can live without running water. Access to water. Now that's rather difficult.
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Do you know what people did back then? They moved to the water when they couldn't make it come to them. Again, we are way too spoiled. Move to where the resources are.
Quote: DRichQuote: rxwineDo all the homeless people leave Vegas in the Summer? Someone must be living without electricity.
(Doesn't sound like a great option though)
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We are all just so spoiled it is ridiculous. For how many thousands of years did people live without electricity and running water and somehow they managed to live on.
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Yeah... and they had plagues and diseases and famines and the life expectancy was 35 years.
Quote: DRichQuote: rxwineQuote: DRichQuote: rxwineDo all the homeless people leave Vegas in the Summer? Someone must be living without electricity.
(Doesn't sound like a great option though)
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We are all just so spoiled it is ridiculous. For how many thousands of years did people live without electricity and running water and somehow they managed to live on.
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I think you can live without running water. Access to water. Now that's rather difficult.
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Do you know what people did back then? They moved to the water when they couldn't make it come to them. Again, we are way too spoiled. Move to where the resources are.
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And this is why Nevada can't attract industry and why California is losing industry.
Thank you.
Quote: KeyserLake Mead/Hoover Dam is the result of short sighted planning and engineering.
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Short sighted?
Hoover Dam was built starting in 1931 and opened in 1936.
It's still in business 86 years later. I think that's pretty good for government work.
The short sighted planning came from all the people who left the northeast to find the sun and a lower cost of living. They (we) blew it.
I should have stayed in Syracuse.
1936 is today on the geological timescale. I know we can't build by looking at the geological time scale, but we need to build projects by looking at much longer term data than we typically do.
Quote: AlanMendelson
Ummm... 2000 was 22 years ago.
And?
Quote:The problem today is too much growth, too little investment in new facilities and the closure of a nuclear power plant in the LA metro area.
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True there. Too much regulation and NIMBYism keeping new plants from going up. OTOH you would think Wyoming would see some cash to be made and build plants for electricity for export.
Quote: AZDuffmanOTOH you would think Wyoming would see some cash to be made and build plants for electricity for export.
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You need to read up on electrical transmission. It's not practical after 300 miles.
Not true. There are many links over 500 miles, including a 800 mile link from Oregon to Sylmar. HVDC works well for long distances.Quote: AlanMendelsonQuote: AZDuffmanOTOH you would think Wyoming would see some cash to be made and build plants for electricity for export.
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You need to read up on electrical transmission. It's not practical after 300 miles.
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I have a feeling most of them are on somthing and they don't notice it as much, and I guess they also get used to it. I oftentimes think how miserable it must be for the homeless in vegas in the summertime.Quote: rxwineDo all the homeless people leave Vegas in the Summer? Someone must be living without electricity.
(Doesn't sound like a great option though)
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I am miserable if the house gets up to 80. I bought a portable A/C this year for upstairs since it gets quite toasty in the summertime.
Quote: AxelWolfI have a feeling most of them are on somthing and they don't notice it as much, and I guess they also get used to it. I oftentimes think how miserable it must be for the homeless in vegas in the summertime.Quote: rxwineDo all the homeless people leave Vegas in the Summer? Someone must be living without electricity.
(Doesn't sound like a great option though)
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I am miserable if the house gets up to 80. I bought a portable A/C this year for upstairs since it gets quite toasty in the summertime.
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The homeless are in casinos. You can't pick them out because they just blend in.
#Nevadaisgone!
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