Resorts World Vegas fires CEO Sibella
We’re on the right page. You’re not.
DRich already stated that unless someone is asleep at the wheel over 10k cash inputted in machines by one person is CTR’ed. He works in the casino business. You think I’m going to listen to him or you on this topic?
And even if the CTRs and SARs were somehow circumvented it’s a ridiculous argument to claim that tons of W2-Gs coming out of nowhere would do more than flag someone for at least audit unless he had some reported legitimate sources of income.
Then most of the casinos in LV are asleep at the wheel when it comes to slots. I would say that less than 65% of people are CTR'ed when it comes to individuals adding 10k into slots in a 24-hour period.Quote: MDawg
DRich already stated that unless someone is asleep at the wheel over 10k cash inputted in machines by one person is CTR’ed. ]link to original post
Quote: MDawg
And even if the CTRs and SARs were somehow circumvented it’s a ridiculous argument to claim that tons of W2-Gs coming out of nowhere would do more than flag someone for at least audit unless he had some reported legitimate sources of income.
link to original post
This is where you just sound so ridiculous.
NEWS FLASH - The IRS CONSIDERS W2-G to be legitimate source of income.
That you believe gambling winnings and W2-G in particular is not considered "legitimate income " is at odds with what the IRS claims and believes.
And unlike you talking about something you don't do or know, I actually am talking about something I do and know. Each year I report gambling winnings aa my sole source of income. My accountant files me as a gambler and doesn't see any red flags. A decade of this with zero audits and why should they when I simply report my income.
So you just sound so wrong on this subject it's ridiculous
Not everyone uses a card, and not everyone is using their own card.Quote: ChumpChangeHow would you know? The casino never tells the customer about the CTR from slot cash put in except to demand ID/SSN if they don't have it from the Player's Card already. I'll take the advice of don't go to the cage with $10K of cash-outs during a day, and don't put more than $10K cash into slots in a day, use vouchers instead. Use several vouchers, and come back another day if you have too much to cash-out in one day.
link to original post
What do you think would happen if I were to use your card and put in 10k over 10 hours?
Do you think they are following around players all day from casino to casino and machine to machine?
Inserting 10's of thousands per day into slot machines without ever getting CTRs would be easy. Nothing is ever foolproof, but if done right the chances are slim you would ever raise any suspicion.
If they are looking into you for whatever reason then they will figure out what you are doing and why.
FYI: Taking the advice you mentioned may be considered structuring as your intent seems to be to avoid CTRS. It's to my understanding that INTENDING to avoid CTRs, is the illegal part.
Quote: ChumpChangeHow would you know?
link to original post
He doesn't. Seem to know much of anything about any of this.
Look, you have to understand that A.Wolf posted here demanding that a player show his CTR to prove that he had won seven figures at a table game! as if, (1) a CTR is a piece of paper that is handed to the player at any point, and (2) a seven figure table game winner would cash out in cash, versus check, in the first place.
A.Wolf's apparently never received a check in his life for a table game win, so again - none of this seems to be anything he knows much about.
"Show me the money! How about a CTR? He had to have a CTR cashing in." 🤣
I discount what he has to say on these subjects even more than anything D.Oz has to say.
How about a CTR A.Wolf? Show it to me! 🥹
I completely disregard it.
Why do you need anything other than a log book to show gambling wins and losses? A logbook will do just fine assuming it's within reason.Quote: ChumpChangeIt is a learning process but that was a few years ago. Does he have more recent up to date thoughts? But for you MDawg, I thought people would get a copy of the CTR too at the time of the original posts, I just didn't mention it at the time. Now I won't look for my copy of the CTR if one is warranted, thanks. I really thought I could use a CTR for tax purposes. Just buy-in for $20K and cash-out for more than $10K and the CTR would be given to me and I could use that as a record for the IRS to show my gambling wins and losses at higher stakes. That dream went "poof" with your insight.
link to original post
You have no clue what you are talking about when it comes to knowing how much I know about this. That situation has already been addressed. I could have been testing the OP with that question to see if he was telling the truth. He didn't seem to know the proper response, I could have made a mistake and simply used the wrong term thinking about a win-loss statement or somthing else, there are multiple logical reasons. I did then and do now in fact do know what a CTR is. I had a case involving CTRs and structuring long before I posted on this forum. I believe there is evidence on the forums of me discussing CTRs before that post you are talking about. There is more evidence that supports I did and do know what a CTR is.Quote: MDawgQuote: ChumpChangeHow would you know?
link to original post
He doesn't. Seem to know much of anything about any of this.
Look, you have to understand that A.Wolf posted here demanding that a player show his CTR to prove that he had won seven figures at a table game! as if, (1) a CTR is a piece of paper that is handed to the player at any point, and (2) a seven figure table game winner would cash out in cash, versus check, in the first place.
A.Wolf's apparently never received a check in his life for a table game win, so again - none of this seems to be anything he knows much about.
"Show me the money! How about a CTR? He had to have a CTR cashing in." 🤣
I discount what he has to say on these subjects even more than anything D.Oz has to say.
How about a CTR A.Wolf? Show it to me! 🥹
link to original post
Quote: AxelWolfNot everyone uses a card, and not everyone is using their own card.Quote: ChumpChangeHow would you know? The casino never tells the customer about the CTR from slot cash put in except to demand ID/SSN if they don't have it from the Player's Card already. I'll take the advice of don't go to the cage with $10K of cash-outs during a day, and don't put more than $10K cash into slots in a day, use vouchers instead. Use several vouchers, and come back another day if you have too much to cash-out in one day.
link to original post
What do you think would happen if I were to use your card and put in 10k over 10 hours?
Do you think they are following around players all day from casino to casino and machine to machine?
Inserting 10's of thousands per day into slot machines without ever getting CTRs would be easy. Nothing is ever foolproof, but if done right the chances are slim you would ever raise any suspicion.
If they are looking into you for whatever reason then they will figure out what you are doing and why.
FYI: Taking the advice you mentioned may be considered structuring as your intent seems to be to avoid CTRS. It's to my understanding that INTENDING to avoid CTRs, is the illegal part.
link to original post
Bingo and all of this side talk between Dr OZ and Mdawg are missing the bigger picture. Mdawg keeps talking about table games. They don’t use table games as table games are the most scrutinized on the casino floor.
Once casinos catch on to what’s happening you can say goodbye to all the accumulator games. These Asian teams in Vegas are going to destroy it.
My bigger concern is that as an American Citizen, criminal organizations are allowed to funnel money that could be from terrorism or human trafficking and the casinos are turning a blind eye. Not only a blind eye but they are giving them comps!
And sorry Oz there is no way they are making back their losses in comps. But why would they care anyway? The primary goal is to launder. Comps are a bonus.
Keep playing devils advocate. Mark my words they are going to at worst put legitimate AP’s out of business and at best make our jobs 10x harder.
Quote: Slotenthusiast
And sorry Oz there is no way they are making back their losses in comps. But why would they care anyway? The primary goal is to launder. Comps are a bonus.
Keep playing devils advocate. Mark my words they are going to at worst put legitimate AP’s out of business and at best make our jobs 10x harder.
link to original post
I agree they will cause problems with AP's.
You have been gracious in replies so graciously let me point out that the more logical option is they are multicarding and not money laundering. Let me explain.
You are making a completely incorrect assumption they can't make their money back through comps. Most AP multicarding teams concentrate on low HE games grinding the VP for example to minimize losses. But properties can and do reward their high HE players more generously and that offset can be used to turn a profit.
Years ago I hit a casino where I lost $6000 PER CARD at slots and got back $24,000 freeplay PER CARD playable at VBJ for a four fold increase in my bankroll and trust me I was not traveling there for one card.
Today those opportunities have dried up as casinos have become more savvy and have made both pre-opportunity and post-opportunity offers difficult. Pre-opportunity means they don't give out lucrative offers period and you either are witnessing this or are unaware how to get the lucrative offers. Post-opportunity the casinos still give those lucrative offers but good luck collecting them because they highly monitor activity and will shut down the account at even winning back 5% of your losses (the strictest I have seen is closing an account after just one day of taking an offer without play).
My point is this. With so many casinos savvy and so few opportunities IF I found a holy grail location, a casino not savvy yet with an ability to maximize return, That's PRECISELY where I would be camped out 16 hours a day with all my team members.
Meanwhile if I was trying to do something else more nefarious such as launder money from terrorism etc, the LAST thing I would do is dump all the cash at ONE LOCATION 16 hours a day!!!! I would spread that money out.
So from what you have described, it just seems more and more that you are seeing a multicarding team striking hard while the furnace is hot and unguarded and nothing more.
(Ask to Show Me the CTR 😍.)
Quote: MDawgMDawg knows. Others speculate (or ask to Show Me the CTR 😍).
link to original post
I think some people here are confused.
A CTR is not given to the player, it is just filed with the government. I have filed 1000's of CTR's myself and never done a paper CTR. I don't know of any casinos that file paper CTR's. I filed all of mine online and others have special software to track them and then it uploads them once a day online.
Quote: darkozQuote: Slotenthusiast
And sorry Oz there is no way they are making back their losses in comps. But why would they care anyway? The primary goal is to launder. Comps are a bonus.
Keep playing devils advocate. Mark my words they are going to at worst put legitimate AP’s out of business and at best make our jobs 10x harder.
link to original post
I agree they will cause problems with AP's.
You have been gracious in replies so graciously let me point out that the more logical option is they are multicarding and not money laundering. Let me explain.
You are making a completely incorrect assumption they can't make their money back through comps. Most AP multicarding teams concentrate on low HE games grinding the VP for example to minimize losses. But properties can and do reward their high HE players more generously and that offset can be used to turn a profit.
Years ago I hit a casino where I lost $6000 PER CARD at slots and got back $24,000 freeplay PER CARD playable at VBJ for a four fold increase in my bankroll and trust me I was not traveling there for one card.
Today those opportunities have dried up as casinos have become more savvy and have made both pre-opportunity and post-opportunity offers difficult. Pre-opportunity means they don't give out lucrative offers period and you either are witnessing this or are unaware how to get the lucrative offers. Post-opportunity the casinos still give those lucrative offers but good luck collecting them because they highly monitor activity and will shut down the account at even winning back 5% of your losses (the strictest I have seen is closing an account after just one day of taking an offer without play).
My point is this. With so many casinos savvy and so few opportunities IF I found a holy grail location, a casino not savvy yet with an ability to maximize return, That's PRECISELY where I would be camped out 16 hours a day with all my team members.
Meanwhile if I was trying to do something else more nefarious such as launder money from terrorism etc, the LAST thing I would do is dump all the cash at ONE LOCATION 16 hours a day!!!! I would spread that money out.
So from what you have described, it just seems more and more that you are seeing a multicarding team striking hard while the furnace is hot and unguarded and nothing more.
link to original post
It’s not one location. I saw them up and down the strip. Rarely saw them at any properties other than MGM or Caesars owned.
Can you imagine him presenting his own case in a court of law?
COACH CHALLENGE RULING APPEAL
Quote: SlotenthusiastQuote: darkozQuote: Slotenthusiast
And sorry Oz there is no way they are making back their losses in comps. But why would they care anyway? The primary goal is to launder. Comps are a bonus.
Keep playing devils advocate. Mark my words they are going to at worst put legitimate AP’s out of business and at best make our jobs 10x harder.
link to original post
I agree they will cause problems with AP's.
You have been gracious in replies so graciously let me point out that the more logical option is they are multicarding and not money laundering. Let me explain.
You are making a completely incorrect assumption they can't make their money back through comps. Most AP multicarding teams concentrate on low HE games grinding the VP for example to minimize losses. But properties can and do reward their high HE players more generously and that offset can be used to turn a profit.
Years ago I hit a casino where I lost $6000 PER CARD at slots and got back $24,000 freeplay PER CARD playable at VBJ for a four fold increase in my bankroll and trust me I was not traveling there for one card.
Today those opportunities have dried up as casinos have become more savvy and have made both pre-opportunity and post-opportunity offers difficult. Pre-opportunity means they don't give out lucrative offers period and you either are witnessing this or are unaware how to get the lucrative offers. Post-opportunity the casinos still give those lucrative offers but good luck collecting them because they highly monitor activity and will shut down the account at even winning back 5% of your losses (the strictest I have seen is closing an account after just one day of taking an offer without play).
My point is this. With so many casinos savvy and so few opportunities IF I found a holy grail location, a casino not savvy yet with an ability to maximize return, That's PRECISELY where I would be camped out 16 hours a day with all my team members.
Meanwhile if I was trying to do something else more nefarious such as launder money from terrorism etc, the LAST thing I would do is dump all the cash at ONE LOCATION 16 hours a day!!!! I would spread that money out.
So from what you have described, it just seems more and more that you are seeing a multicarding team striking hard while the furnace is hot and unguarded and nothing more.
link to original post
It’s not one location. I saw them up and down the strip. Rarely saw them at any properties other than MGM or Caesars owned.
link to original post
I have my own operation at caesars and at MGM.
So getting offers from them that are greater than losses is definitely possible.
The cards are the same regardless of location so basically they are hitting two companies. If you saw their card stacks it would appear to be just two casinos even if they hit .multiple properties.
You have yet to show me anything that says these Asian teams are money laundering and shown me a lot that they are multicarding.
Now what I have observed of some but not all these Asian teams is they have some insiders. I followed one team around at an MGM property and was able to discern they were stealing the freeplay using other players cards without permission.
At yet another property they had false cards, that is the cards had been printed by an employee with minimum info like fake addresses and even with freeplay uploaded.
So there may very well be criminality going on that you simply aren't perceiving.
As for MDawg, be wary of him, he has actuallystated that he doesn't believe multicarding works. He also claims to beat baccarat but doesn't think reporting wins to the irs would be a legitimate source of income. He doesn't know much in the slots area of expertise. Like zilch.
Plus I have opined that multicarding probably works best where near slave labor is involved, a pyramidal scheme where the top dog takes more than the lion's share.
"but doesn't think reporting wins to the irs would be a legitimate source of income" - this is definitely along the lines of "the train left the station of logic" - I mean there are statements that are just shy of coherence, and then there are incoherent statements. That is not what I said.
I do know little or nothing about slots. I choose not to push dem buttons all day long!
Quote: darkozI don't discount what MDawg says on this subject.
I completely disregard it.
link to original post
I'd say that D.Oz takes me very seriously, on at least some subjects. Even paid me $2000. just to have Wizard watch me play.
Quote: MDawgI didn't say that multicarding doesn't work - just said that I believe it doesn't work for you, nearly as well as you imply. Yes I've referred to multicarding as a low end scheme (others have referred to it as a one trick pony). But as far as how well it works for you, I mean we have the meaningless $20K a week (but not every week), but nothing like the specific session reports I have laid down (and Mission146 tabulated), so we really have no idea what you even claim as far as multicarding success.
Plus I have opined that multicarding probably works best where near slave labor is involved, a pyramidal scheme where the top dog takes more than the lion's share.
"but doesn't think reporting wins to the irs would be a legitimate source of income" - this is definitely along the lines of "the train left the station of logic" - I mean there are statements that are just shy of coherence, and then there are incoherent statements. That is not what I said.
I do know little or nothing about slots. I choose not to push dem buttons all day long!
link to original post
Well my slave labor employees make between $500 and $2000 a day. (And no not every day).
Mind you, I never ever tried to avoid putting more than $3K cash into the machines. Some big promos or long DDB sessions required me to feed in a ton of $100 bills. But, if I had intended to avoid cash-in CTRs at all costs, this would have been so easy to accomplish.
Most table players will not be aware that you can generate frequent large jackpot wins even playing $10 video poker. Just use the double-up option on every win until you either lose or have a $20K+ jackpot. No casino is going to force you to take cash for this jackpot. Take a check and move to the next property and repeat all day. I have seen Russian's turning cash to checks this way in the good old days. You could even use untraceable $25 tokens to make it impossible to track the original cash input.
The problem with TITOs is that they leave an audit trail. If you created twenty $1000 vouchers on earlier trips and put them into play on one day, this could be tracked back to each of the original cash-in events. It wouldn't matter if you didn't have a card in the machine when you created the vouchers from cash. I don't know if any casino traces vouchers back to the source routinely. If they were motivated enough, an investigator could trace your TITOs back to the cash input and then use security video to see who fed the bills in. In the old days with tokens, this was impractical.
It is impossible to put more than $3000 into a slot machine at one time. Try it and the bills will be rejected.
I wonder why? Probably because the casino wants to avoid those reporting requirements.
As far as CTRs, as DRich and anyone who knows would say, we aren't aware of when or if a CTR or SAR has been issued against us, I suppose - unless something tangible comes of it, such as some kind of inquiry, bank or tax audit, bank or casino account closure or ban, or civil or criminal investigation, and even then we might not know for sure unless the files are somehow disclosed during the process.
That is not true. There are machines and locations where you can put in more than 3,000.Quote: darkozMental brings up something that MDawg may not understand.
It is impossible to put more than $3000 into a slot machine at one time. Try it and the bills will be rejected.
I wonder why? Probably because the casino wants to avoid those reporting requirements.
link to original post
Quote: darkozIt is impossible to put more than $3000 into a slot machine at one time. Try it and the bills will be rejected.
I wonder why? Probably because the casino wants to avoid those reporting requirements.
link to original post
Quote: MDawgI also know what generates a report on a currency transaction, and this occurs for over $10K cash in or out in a 24 hour period, or $3000. or more used to purchase a monetary instrument such as a money order or cashier's check. The casinos are supposed to turn in the CTRs for anyone who inputs or withdraws the $10K or more cash in a 24 hour period, no matter what game is being played.
link to original post
I can't see how > $3K would trigger a reporting requirement in a slot machine.
ATMs (at least at one of my banks) also will not allow more than $3000. cash per single deposit, however, all I have to do is re-insert or re-tap the card for a new transaction and it allows another $3000., and so on. At one of my banks the ATM allows up to $5000. cash per single deposit, so the $3000. limit at the other bank may not mean anything other than a mechanical limitation of the currency counter.
Quote: AxelWolfThat is not true. There are machines and locations where you can put in more than 3,000.Quote: darkozMental brings up something that MDawg may not understand.
It is impossible to put more than $3000 into a slot machine at one time. Try it and the bills will be rejected.
I wonder why? Probably because the casino wants to avoid those reporting requirements.
link to original post
link to original post
Well I certainly haven't been to every location in the US and I suppose that's what you mean. Canada or Europe would by implication not be what's being discussed here.
If it's in the US I am unaware of such a place. They may simply have some way of filing the necessary paperwork. Can you load more then $3k without a player card or some form of identification?
The $3000. figure has to do with using currency to purchase a monetary instrument such as a money order or cashier's check, how does that happen in a slot machine?
Quote: MDawgI also know what generates a report on a currency transaction, and this occurs for over $10K cash in or out in a 24 hour period, or $3000. or more used to purchase a monetary instrument such as a money order or cashier's check. The casinos are supposed to turn in the CTRs for anyone who inputs or withdraws the $10K or more cash in a 24 hour period, no matter what game is being played.
link to original post
Quote: MDawgWhat paperwork are you talking about for a > $3000. cash input in a slot machine? The trigger at table games for someone who is not already on file is the same $10K that triggers a CTR, although, true I have seen them ask for the identification from an unknown table game player before he passes $10K, although not at so much below.
The $3000. figure has to do with using currency to purchase a monetary instrument such as a money order or cashier's check, how does that happen in a slot machine?Quote: MDawgI also know what generates a report on a currency transaction, and this occurs for over $10K cash in or out in a 24 hour period, or $3000. or more used to purchase a monetary instrument such as a money order or cashier's check. The casinos are supposed to turn in the CTRs for anyone who inputs or withdraws the $10K or more cash in a 24 hour period, no matter what game is being played.
link to original post
link to original post
You can insert cash and then print out a tito which is good for redemption at the cashier or redemption machine. You can also use that TITO to "purchase" games at other slot machines. That makes it a purchase of a financial instrument even if limited to redemption inside the casino.
Seems like that is what the $3000 limitation is trying to avoid.
Yes, I'm talking about the USA and in various casinos, no ID or players card needed. I don't normally take note of what machines and locations, I just notice when the situation comes up. One must remember that what might be today might not be tomorrow.Quote: darkozQuote: AxelWolfThat is not true. There are machines and locations where you can put in more than 3,000.Quote: darkozMental brings up something that MDawg may not understand.
It is impossible to put more than $3000 into a slot machine at one time. Try it and the bills will be rejected.
I wonder why? Probably because the casino wants to avoid those reporting requirements.
link to original post
link to original post
Well I certainly haven't been to every location in the US and I suppose that's what you mean. Canada or Europe would by implication not be what's being discussed here.
If it's in the US I am unaware of such a place. They may simply have some way of filing the necessary paperwork. Can you load more then $3k without a player card or some form of identification?
link to original post
Someome might want access to 10's thousands in cash 24/7 365 without actually carrying the cash, 6 month exp slot tickets might be an option. Once it is close to expiring, you simply put it back into a machine, and cash out to renew the 6-months.
Some years back the situation cost me around 5k by forgetting or whatever and letting a slot ticket expire. The casino refused to cash it, gaming said tough luck. I made (inserted 50 + 100 dollar bills 2 times and cashed out a few tickets for around 5k each, no card used.) They cashed one after it had expired, but then refused to cash the 2nd one.
https://www.fincen.gov/sites/default/files/shared/FinCEN%20CTR%20ElectronicFilingInstructions%20-%20Stand%20Alone%20doc.pdf
Nor do I see any mention of any figure other than 10000 (no mention of 3000 as far as reporting).
I did find this:
a casino does not have to report the following types of transactions:
• Cash ins when they are the same physical currency previously wagered in a money play on the same table game without leaving the table;
• Bills inserted into electronic gaming devices in multiple transactions (unless a casino has knowledge pursuant to 31 C.F.R. 1021.313);
• Cash outs won in a money play when they are the same physical currency wagered, (However, when a customer increases a subsequent cash bet (i.e., money play), at the same table game without departing, the increase in the amount of the currency bet would represent a new bet of currency and a transaction in currency) or,
• Jackpots from slot machines or video lottery terminals.
§ 1021.313 Aggregation.
In the case of a casino, multiple currency transactions shall be treated as a single transaction if the casino has knowledge that they are by or on behalf of any person and result in either cash in or cash out totaling more than $10,000 during any gaming day. For purposes of this section, a casino shall be deemed to have the knowledge described in the preceding sentence, if: Any sole proprietor, partner, officer, director, or employee of the casino, acting within the scope of his or her employment, has knowledge that such multiple currency transactions have occurred, including knowledge from examining the books, records, logs, information retained on magnetic disk, tape or other machine-readable media, or in any manual system, and similar documents and information, which the casino maintains pursuant to any law or regulation or within the ordinary course of its business, and which contain information that such multiple currency transactions have occurred.
The above states clearly that if a person deposits more than $10K in a 24 hour period into a slot machine, he must be reported, under most circumstances unless they are basically "asleep at the wheel."
It also mentions $10K only - not $3K.
Quote: AxelWolfYes, I'm talking about the USA and in various casinos, no ID or players card needed. I don't normally take note of what machines and locations, I just notice when the situation comes up. One must remember that what might be today might not be tomorrow.Quote: darkozQuote: AxelWolfThat is not true. There are machines and locations where you can put in more than 3,000.Quote: darkozMental brings up something that MDawg may not understand.
It is impossible to put more than $3000 into a slot machine at one time. Try it and the bills will be rejected.
I wonder why? Probably because the casino wants to avoid those reporting requirements.
link to original post
link to original post
Well I certainly haven't been to every location in the US and I suppose that's what you mean. Canada or Europe would by implication not be what's being discussed here.
If it's in the US I am unaware of such a place. They may simply have some way of filing the necessary paperwork. Can you load more then $3k without a player card or some form of identification?
link to original post
Someome might want access to 10's thousands in cash 24/7 365 without actually carrying the cash, 6 month exp slot tickets might be an option. Once it is close to expiring, you simply put it back into a machine, and cash out to renew the 6-months.
Some years back the situation cost me around 5k by forgetting or whatever and letting a slot ticket expire. The casino refused to cash it, gaming said tough luck. I made (inserted 50 + 100 dollar bills 2 times and cashed out a few tickets for around 5k each, no card used.) They cashed one after it had expired, but then refused to cash the 2nd one.
link to original post
Well as you and I both have noted there are casinos that simply ignore what they should be doing properly.
I know DRich insists they are supposed to monitor and file CTR for BOTH ten grand in as well as out and I know for a fact many casinos that monitor only the out. IE lose ten grand, no reporting, win ten grand and ID required for CTR.
And before MDawg chimes in that I don't get to see CTR, I can tell from player's cards. Lose >ten grand, get comps like normal, win >ten grand card is locked until player goes back to rewards desk and shows ID AND gives SS# for reporting requirements.
Quote: darkozMental brings up something that MDawg may not understand.
It is impossible to put more than $3000 into a slot machine at one time. Try it and the bills will be rejected.
I wonder why? Probably because the casino wants to avoid those reporting requirements.
link to original post
Put in $2900, play 1 spin, put in another $2900?
or put in $2900, cash out, then put in another $2900, rinse/repeat?
Quote: MDawgA cashed out TITO ticket obviously is included in sum total that triggers the >$10K CTR reporting, but I don't see any mention of TITOs being treated any differently from casino chips, tokens, and other gaming instruments:
https://www.fincen.gov/sites/default/files/shared/FinCEN%20CTR%20ElectronicFilingInstructions%20-%20Stand%20Alone%20doc.pdf
Nor do I see any mention of any figure other than 10000 (no mention of 3000 as far as reporting).
I did find this:
a casino does not have to report the following types of transactions:
• Cash ins when they are the same physical currency previously wagered in a money play on the same table game without leaving the table;
• Bills inserted into electronic gaming devices in multiple transactions (unless a casino has knowledge pursuant to 31 C.F.R. 1021.313);
• Cash outs won in a money play when they are the same physical currency wagered, (However, when a customer increases a subsequent cash bet (i.e., money play), at the same table game without departing, the increase in the amount of the currency bet would represent a new bet of currency and a transaction in currency) or,
• Jackpots from slot machines or video lottery terminals.
§ 1021.313 Aggregation.
In the case of a casino, multiple currency transactions shall be treated as a single transaction if the casino has knowledge that they are by or on behalf of any person and result in either cash in or cash out totaling more than $10,000 during any gaming day. For purposes of this section, a casino shall be deemed to have the knowledge described in the preceding sentence, if: Any sole proprietor, partner, officer, director, or employee of the casino, acting within the scope of his or her employment, has knowledge that such multiple currency transactions have occurred, including knowledge from examining the books, records, logs, information retained on magnetic disk, tape or other machine-readable media, or in any manual system, and similar documents and information, which the casino maintains pursuant to any law or regulation or within the ordinary course of its business, and which contain information that such multiple currency transactions have occurred.
The above states clearly that if a person deposits more than $10K in a 24 hour period into a slot machine, he must be reported, under most circumstances unless they are basically "asleep at the wheel."
It also mentions $10K only - not $3K.
link to original post
And what both Axel and myself are telling you is casinos are asleep at the wheel.
BTW, it says if the employees of the casino are aware of such transactions. They will basically claim they weren't and unless they physically followed every slot player around there is no way they could be.
Quote: 100xOddsQuote: darkozMental brings up something that MDawg may not understand.
It is impossible to put more than $3000 into a slot machine at one time. Try it and the bills will be rejected.
I wonder why? Probably because the casino wants to avoid those reporting requirements.
link to original post
Put in $2900, play 1 spin, put in another $2900?
or put in $2900, cash out, then put in another $2900, rinse/repeat?
link to original post
You can put in $2900, cash out with or without a spin and then put in another $2900.
You can even cash out the 2nd one without taking a spin.
You could not put them both together into a slot machine until through play and losses, they totalled less than $3k.
I have seen different casinos handle this issue different ways.
For example one casino deposit $2900, take spin, win $200, you would have $3100 in slot. You could keep playing and even switch slots. Voucher will be accepted.
Other places, the overage would trigger a hand pay of $100, the amount over $3000.
I know one place if you cash out without play and try to redeem you will have to go to cashier where they will call the cops for money laundering and you will have to explain why you inserted such a large amount and then tried to cash out.
How would any casino employee have 'knowledge that such multiple currency transactions have occurred' if the players card was not inserted (or a different players card was inserted for some of the transactions)? It also does not say they have to aggregate over currency transactions occurring on multiple days.Quote: MDawg
§ 1021.313 Aggregation.
In the case of a casino, multiple currency transactions shall be treated as a single transaction if the casino has knowledge that they are by or on behalf of any person and result in either cash in or cash out totaling more than $10,000 during any gaming day. For purposes of this section, a casino shall be deemed to have the knowledge described in the preceding sentence, if: Any sole proprietor, partner, officer, director, or employee of the casino, acting within the scope of his or her employment, has knowledge that such multiple currency transactions have occurred, including knowledge from examining the books, records, logs, information retained on magnetic disk, tape or other machine-readable media, or in any manual system, and similar documents and information, which the casino maintains pursuant to any law or regulation or within the ordinary course of its business, and which contain information that such multiple currency transactions have occurred.
The above states clearly that if a person deposits more than $10K in a 24 hour period into a slot machine, he must be reported, under most circumstances unless they are basically "asleep at the wheel."
It also mentions $10K only - not $3K.
link to original post
It is not hard to generate casino checks for big slot wins where nothing in their database proves that you put a lot of cash into the play to generate the jackpot. Just play uncarded and move around to different machines and casinos.
So if he or any other multi carder is switching up player cards and inputing cash he could go down hard for structuring money laundering, if switching the player card around keeps $10K per 24 hours from appearing on one particular card, where the sum total of all the cards he personally standing in front of the machine is sticking into the machine over 24 hours are inputting > $10K. And that's one way right there where the casinos could both shut down and jail some multicarders.
In D.Oz's case if he and the others whose cards he is using are reporting all the income anyway, it might be just a technical violation.
But if a money laundering is switching up cards, to try to get past the reporting requirement, that is illegal. Such a person would probably be better off using no card at all because that leaves the reporting up to the casino, and could not be construed as a willful attempt to circumvent reporting triggers.
At the end of the day however, someone sticking all those cards into the machine has to decide how he should be treated. As just one person for tax purposes, or multiple persons. The right attorneys thinking hard enough might be able to come up with a way to shut this all down with something other than internal casino rules. They might not have thought about it all hard enough in that way.
Just as ex-cheats were the best casino surveillance personnel in the earlier days of Vegas, someone like me if he ever gets tired of beating the h. out of the casinos or gets banned in enough places could change colors of hats and go work for the dark side (isn't that part of Wizard does or used to do?) as a legal consultant. Not that I would, but I'd be good at it.
Quote: MentalHow would any casino employee have 'knowledge that such multiple currency transactions have occurred' if the players card was not inserted (or a different players card was inserted for some of the transactions)? It also does not say they have to aggregate over currency transactions occurring on multiple days.Quote: MDawg
§ 1021.313 Aggregation.
In the case of a casino, multiple currency transactions shall be treated as a single transaction if the casino has knowledge that they are by or on behalf of any person and result in either cash in or cash out totaling more than $10,000 during any gaming day. For purposes of this section, a casino shall be deemed to have the knowledge described in the preceding sentence, if: Any sole proprietor, partner, officer, director, or employee of the casino, acting within the scope of his or her employment, has knowledge that such multiple currency transactions have occurred, including knowledge from examining the books, records, logs, information retained on magnetic disk, tape or other machine-readable media, or in any manual system, and similar documents and information, which the casino maintains pursuant to any law or regulation or within the ordinary course of its business, and which contain information that such multiple currency transactions have occurred.
The above states clearly that if a person deposits more than $10K in a 24 hour period into a slot machine, he must be reported, under most circumstances unless they are basically "asleep at the wheel."
It also mentions $10K only - not $3K.
link to original post
It is not hard to generate casino checks for big slot wins where nothing in their database proves that you put a lot of cash into the play to generate the jackpot. Just play uncarded and move around to different machines and casinos.
link to original post
EXACTLY!!!
MDawg doesn't play slots but acts like he knows how they work.
The irony is he criticizes anyone who makes table games claims by saying they don't play high limit tables so don't know what they are talking about.
Pot calling kettle black (is it an insult to call MDawg a kettle? Or call him black? Who can tell on this forum?)
Quote: MDawgD.oz plays only rated. With player card stuck in machine.
So if he or any other multi carder is switching up player cards and inputing cash he could go down hard for structuring money laundering, if switching the player card around keeps $10K per 24 hours from appearing on one particular card, where the sum total of all the cards he personally standing in front of the machine is sticking into the machine over 24 hours are inputting > $10K. And that's one way right there where the casinos could both shut down and jail some multicarders.
In D.Oz's case if he and the others whose cards he is using are reporting all the income anyway, it might be just a technical violation.
But if a money laundering is switching up cards, to try to get past the reporting requirement, that is illegal. Such a person would probably be better off using no card at all because that leaves the reporting up to the casino, and could not be construed as a willful attempt to circumvent reporting triggers.
At the end of the day however, someone sticking all those cards into the machine has to decide how he should be treated. As just one person for tax purposes, or multiple persons. The right attorneys thinking hard enough might be able to come up with a way to shut this all down with something other than internal casino rules. They might not have thought about it all hard enough in that way.
Just as ex-cheats were the best casino surveillance personnel in the earlier days of Vegas, someone like me if he ever gets tired of beating the h. out of the casinos or gets banned in enough places could change colors of hats and go work for the dark side as a legal consultant.
link to original post
I am trying to be calm here because MDawg clearly is in over his head. He clearly has no idea how multicarding works.
When I am putting in thousands on other people's cards I am almost always losing money. Not winning money. And not reporting any of that as income period (why should I if I lost money). Small amounts may be won but nothing major. So clearly no money laundering!
If a person winning a large jackpot on another players card, the person who pushed the button gets paid so again, using another person's card with major wins isn't money launder because the ID of the actual player who put the money is shown.
Where cashing out large amounts of money comes from is the freeplay that accrues later, months later! So any attorney fool enough to think that freeplay is subject to money laundering requirements is just that a fool who will not be able to get any charges brought.
Quote: MDawgSpeaking of freeplay, yes, that's another one where the IRS might already have you by the balls. Lucky for you they are understaffed and under financed.
link to original post
Okay now you are just making stuff up.
"At $3,000 (sometimes $2,500) they track your cashouts at the cage for their Multiple Transaction Log (MTL). They are also making sure you don't have any outstanding markers."
Also, don't rathole purple chips.
Quote: darkoz
It is impossible to put more than $3000 into a slot machine at one time. Try it and the bills will be rejected.
That is incorrect. Almost every slot machine has a configuration for a credit limit maximum that can be set by the casino to any level they choose. $3000 is a common choice for that setting.
Quote: DRichQuote: darkoz
It is impossible to put more than $3000 into a slot machine at one time. Try it and the bills will be rejected.
That is incorrect. Almost every slot machine has a configuration for a credit limit maximum that can be set by the casino to any level they choose. $3000 is a common choice for that setting.
link to original post
Well let me rephrase that it is a common enough setting that at most locations it's impossible.
Axel is aware of some with higher settings.
There is no casino I have visited that didn't have that limit.
Quote: darkozQuote: 100xOddsQuote: darkozMental brings up something that MDawg may not understand.
It is impossible to put more than $3000 into a slot machine at one time. Try it and the bills will be rejected.
I wonder why? Probably because the casino wants to avoid those reporting requirements.
link to original post
Put in $2900, play 1 spin, put in another $2900?
or put in $2900, cash out, then put in another $2900, rinse/repeat?
link to original post
You can put in $2900, cash out with or without a spin and then put in another $2900.
You can even cash out the 2nd one without taking a spin.
You could not put them both together into a slot machine until through play and losses, they totalled less than $3k.
I have seen different casinos handle this issue different ways.
For example one casino deposit $2900, take spin, win $200, you would have $3100 in slot. You could keep playing and even switch slots. Voucher will be accepted.
Other places, the overage would trigger a hand pay of $100, the amount over $3000.
I know one place if you cash out without play and try to redeem you will have to go to cashier where they will call the cops for money laundering and you will have to explain why you inserted such a large amount and then tried to cash out.
link to original post
Ah.. You cannot add more cash into the machine if it already is showing $3k+.
Thx for the clarification.
Quote: MDawgYes but per the actual documentation I supplied and what DRich is saying (versus your incorrect thought that TITOs are treated like money orders or cashier's checks), there is no requirement that a CTR be issued for $3K cash input on a slot machine. Just another D.Oz fallacy.
link to original post
I never said there was a requirement for CTR's at $3000+ I said the casinos are doing it to avoid the documentation.
You incorrectly assume casinos know better. They often err on the side of caution. Even to their detriment.
THEY believe they are avoiding documentation so they set the machines to take under $3k
Quote: MDawgI also know what generates a report on a currency transaction, and this occurs for over $10K cash in or out in a 24 hour period, or $3000. or more used to purchase a monetary instrument such as a money order or cashier's check. The casinos are supposed to turn in the CTRs for anyone who inputs or withdraws the $10K or more cash in a 24 hour period, no matter what game is being played.
link to original post
A TITO is not a monetary instrument like a money order or a cashier's check, it falls in the same category as casino chips and tokens - no different. Your trying to place it some other category - for whatever reason - including your idea that casinos are trying to cut off TITOs at $3000. (which in itself is wrong too, as point out by A.Wolf, and D.Rich) is a fallacy.
Quote: darkozYou can insert cash and then print out a tito which is good for redemption at the cashier or redemption machine. You can also use that TITO to "purchase" games at other slot machines. That makes it a purchase of a financial instrument even if limited to redemption inside the casino.
Seems like that is what the $3000 limitation is trying to avoid.
link to original post
All that matters is the amount of cash input over 24 hours. Converting it to chips, tokens, TITOs, has nothing to do with triggering that > $10K in 24 hours.
Quote: MDawgD.Oz is wrong, as in completely off track ... but there's no real percentage in 'splaining this to him.
link to original post
