MichaelBluejay
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June 24th, 2023 at 1:59:42 AM permalink
Acres Manufacturing makes software that evaluates video poker players' skill, so casinos can "MAXIMIZE YOUR PROFITS ON VIDEO POKER. Now you can specifically market to high value patrons with no risk of exposure to advantage players."
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darkoz
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June 24th, 2023 at 4:27:50 AM permalink
Quote: MichaelBluejay

Acres Manufacturing makes software that evaluates video poker players' skill, so casinos can "MAXIMIZE YOUR PROFITS ON VIDEO POKER. Now you can specifically market to high value patrons with no risk of exposure to advantage players."
link to original post



Specifically market to high value patrons

Sounds like a golden opportunity for multi-carding comps.

"No risk of exposure to advantage players". LMAO!
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DRich
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MichaelBluejay
June 24th, 2023 at 5:08:21 AM permalink
Quote: MichaelBluejay

Acres Manufacturing makes software that evaluates video poker players' skill, so casinos can "MAXIMIZE YOUR PROFITS ON VIDEO POKER. Now you can specifically market to high value patrons with no risk of exposure to advantage players."
link to original post



Acres has had this for a couple of years now but almost no one is going to the expense of implementing it. Newer video poker machines will have this built in but very few casinos are buying video poker machines and they sure aren't going to spend $2000 per machine to retrofit them.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
heatmap
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June 24th, 2023 at 7:09:45 AM permalink
Wizard did you sell acres your patent? Literally almost verbatim on their website just a bit better looking
heatmap
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June 24th, 2023 at 11:11:32 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: MichaelBluejay

Acres Manufacturing makes software that evaluates video poker players' skill, so casinos can "MAXIMIZE YOUR PROFITS ON VIDEO POKER. Now you can specifically market to high value patrons with no risk of exposure to advantage players."
link to original post



Sounds like a golden opportunity for multi-carding comps.

link to original post



you dont think youll have any issues when they lock a user to a specific phone? you would have to possibly have a phone that can run many VMs with each account on a different VM and phones are not that powerful at least i dont think they can do MANY VMs
darkoz
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June 24th, 2023 at 7:22:34 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

Quote: darkoz

Quote: MichaelBluejay

Acres Manufacturing makes software that evaluates video poker players' skill, so casinos can "MAXIMIZE YOUR PROFITS ON VIDEO POKER. Now you can specifically market to high value patrons with no risk of exposure to advantage players."
link to original post



Sounds like a golden opportunity for multi-carding comps.

link to original post



you dont think youll have any issues when they lock a user to a specific phone? you would have to possibly have a phone that can run many VMs with each account on a different VM and phones are not that powerful at least i dont think they can do MANY VMs
link to original post



Isn't this software for brick and mortar casinos?
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Wizard
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heatmap
June 24th, 2023 at 7:41:32 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

Wizard did you sell acres your patent? Literally almost verbatim on their website just a bit better looking
link to original post



To answer your question, I'll just say that I never sold it. I don't think any of my various gaming patents ever made me a dime.
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calwatch
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June 24th, 2023 at 10:44:57 PM permalink
I just think casinos can already under-comp people who play only good machines and overcomp the people who play the worse machines and the carnival games. It could provide some benefit for Ultimate X, where the strategy is much more complicated and so the actual hold is much less than the mathematical expected return of the machine, but the number of people who play Ultimate X even close to well is not that high, and they tend to be some of the casino's better patrons. If I play only 9/6 Jacks and BPD, and NSUD, even though the casino may set the number of points per dollar of VP to be the same, I would never expect to receive bounceback and free rooms the same as someone who play 8/5 DDB DSTP or 6/5 Bonus Ultimate X. They can already identify sharp players through their player profile, without having to pay another company a cut of their profits.
heatmap
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June 25th, 2023 at 6:50:05 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: heatmap

Quote: darkoz

Quote: MichaelBluejay

Acres Manufacturing makes software that evaluates video poker players' skill, so casinos can "MAXIMIZE YOUR PROFITS ON VIDEO POKER. Now you can specifically market to high value patrons with no risk of exposure to advantage players."
link to original post



Sounds like a golden opportunity for multi-carding comps.

link to original post



you dont think youll have any issues when they lock a user to a specific phone? you would have to possibly have a phone that can run many VMs with each account on a different VM and phones are not that powerful at least i dont think they can do MANY VMs
link to original post



Isn't this software for brick and mortar casinos?
link to original post



Yes I was also assuming it can also be used for online gaming as well… the reason I say this is because of the anti AP thing they are selling on their website called foundation… it seems to have a singular app that could possibly be rebranded for the particular casino that is supposed to replace all legacy apps that the casino can then move everything over to. This is actually a router that sits in between the machines and the gaming servers on location and is able to poll and save gaming machine data that then allows the casino to “do what they want when they want” with any type of data be it bonus etc. by sending it to a database that allows the other apps made by acres to easily interface to that data.

I say this because once the accounts are migrated over and many casinos use this foundation thing it’ll be easier to identify people not by who they are but how they play.

This could easily provide newer types of signatures of how someone plays to them because that’s what they are advertising to the public as to what they do and if they really wanted to most likely identify how you as a particular type of player when you are logged in as someone else in the foundation app

And we’re all seeing it in real life AI is being attached to everything

All I’m saying nothing to worry about just speculation
darkoz
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June 25th, 2023 at 7:03:51 AM permalink
Quote: heatmap

Quote: darkoz

Quote: heatmap

Quote: darkoz

Quote: MichaelBluejay

Acres Manufacturing makes software that evaluates video poker players' skill, so casinos can "MAXIMIZE YOUR PROFITS ON VIDEO POKER. Now you can specifically market to high value patrons with no risk of exposure to advantage players."
link to original post



Sounds like a golden opportunity for multi-carding comps.

link to original post



you dont think youll have any issues when they lock a user to a specific phone? you would have to possibly have a phone that can run many VMs with each account on a different VM and phones are not that powerful at least i dont think they can do MANY VMs
link to original post



Isn't this software for brick and mortar casinos?
link to original post



Yes I was also assuming it can also be used for online gaming as well… the reason I say this is because of the anti AP thing they are selling on their website called foundation… it seems to have a singular app that could possibly be rebranded for the particular casino that is supposed to replace all legacy apps that the casino can then move everything over to. This is actually a router that sits in between the machines and the gaming servers on location and is able to poll and save gaming machine data that then allows the casino to “do what they want when they want” with any type of data be it bonus etc. by sending it to a database that allows the other apps made by acres to easily interface to that data.

I say this because once the accounts are migrated over and many casinos use this foundation thing it’ll be easier to identify people not by who they are but how they play.

This could easily provide newer types of signatures of how someone plays to them because that’s what they are advertising to the public as to what they do and if they really wanted to most likely identify how you as a particular type of player when you are logged in as someone else in the foundation app

And we’re all seeing it in real life AI is being attached to everything

All I’m saying nothing to worry about just speculation
link to original post



My opinion of AI is that it is ultimately beatable just like any computer software. It's ability to think is still limited no matter what garbage people spout

All one has to do is test for it's weaknesses and then exploit it.

This is where people touting AI tell me it's ability to think makes it so malleable it's unbeatable. And this is would be a great boon to AP's.

Because once casinos believe they have an unbeatable AI and I then beat it the casino will be so smug they may never know I am there
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GenoDRPh
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June 25th, 2023 at 8:53:59 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Quote: heatmap

Wizard did you sell acres your patent? Literally almost verbatim on their website just a bit better looking
link to original post



To answer your question, I'll just say that I never sold it. I don't think any of my various gaming patents ever made me a dime.
link to original post



If they're using your patents or your patented processes without permission, that may be the basis for an infringement suit.
Mental
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June 25th, 2023 at 12:13:34 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

My opinion of AI is that it is ultimately beatable just like any computer software. It's ability to think is still limited no matter what garbage people spout

All one has to do is test for it's weaknesses and then exploit it.

This is where people touting AI tell me it's ability to think makes it so malleable it's unbeatable. And this is would be a great boon to AP's.

Because once casinos believe they have an unbeatable AI and I then beat it the casino will be so smug they may never know I am there
link to original post

I have written AI programs for board games. My program will beat me badly every time at my favorite board game. And my AI program is not even the best of its class of AI programs. In so many domains, AI is demonstrably better than the best human challengers. In particular, when the final outcome of a game is the result of an accumulation of small tactical advantages, AI dominates mere mortals. The AI searches never make large tactical errors for certain kinds of games. Towards the end of games, it is often possible to do an exhaustive tree search to prove the soundness of the AI-generated moves.

There are many different approaches to AI. It is hubris to think you can compete with them in any domain that doesn't require human-centric decisions. For crunching numbers and finding tactical advantages, AI is just to powerful.
This forum is more enjoyable after I learned how to use the 'Block this user' button.
darkoz
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June 25th, 2023 at 12:25:22 PM permalink
Quote: Mental

Quote: darkoz

My opinion of AI is that it is ultimately beatable just like any computer software. It's ability to think is still limited no matter what garbage people spout

All one has to do is test for it's weaknesses and then exploit it.

This is where people touting AI tell me it's ability to think makes it so malleable it's unbeatable. And this is would be a great boon to AP's.

Because once casinos believe they have an unbeatable AI and I then beat it the casino will be so smug they may never know I am there
link to original post

I have written AI programs for board games. My program will beat me badly every time at my favorite board game. And my AI program is not even the best of its class of AI programs. In so many domains, AI is demonstrably better than the best human challengers. In particular, when the final outcome of a game is the result of an accumulation of small tactical advantages, AI dominates mere mortals. The AI searches never make large tactical errors for certain kinds of games. Towards the end of games, it is often possible to do an exhaustive tree search to prove the soundness of the AI-generated moves.

There are many different approaches to AI. It is hubris to think you can compete with them in any domain that doesn't require human-centric decisions. For crunching numbers and finding tactical advantages, AI is just to powerful.
link to original post



Perfect!

Keep that attitude.

Then I will clean up at the casino.
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
Mental
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June 25th, 2023 at 12:36:38 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: Mental

Quote: darkoz

My opinion of AI is that it is ultimately beatable just like any computer software. It's ability to think is still limited no matter what garbage people spout

All one has to do is test for it's weaknesses and then exploit it.

This is where people touting AI tell me it's ability to think makes it so malleable it's unbeatable. And this is would be a great boon to AP's.

Because once casinos believe they have an unbeatable AI and I then beat it the casino will be so smug they may never know I am there
link to original post

I have written AI programs for board games. My program will beat me badly every time at my favorite board game. And my AI program is not even the best of its class of AI programs. In so many domains, AI is demonstrably better than the best human challengers. In particular, when the final outcome of a game is the result of an accumulation of small tactical advantages, AI dominates mere mortals. The AI searches never make large tactical errors for certain kinds of games. Towards the end of games, it is often possible to do an exhaustive tree search to prove the soundness of the AI-generated moves.

There are many different approaches to AI. It is hubris to think you can compete with them in any domain that doesn't require human-centric decisions. For crunching numbers and finding tactical advantages, AI is just to powerful.
link to original post



Perfect!

Keep that attitude.

Then I will clean up at the casino.
link to original post

There is no evidence that you are currently competing against AI. You are competing against the morons that staff casino promo departments. Card running should be trivially easy to spot with access to the right data. AI would be overkill. The casinos are just too busy raking in money to bother stopping petty theft.
This forum is more enjoyable after I learned how to use the 'Block this user' button.
darkoz
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June 25th, 2023 at 1:06:20 PM permalink
Quote: Mental

Quote: darkoz

Quote: Mental

Quote: darkoz

My opinion of AI is that it is ultimately beatable just like any computer software. It's ability to think is still limited no matter what garbage people spout

All one has to do is test for it's weaknesses and then exploit it.

This is where people touting AI tell me it's ability to think makes it so malleable it's unbeatable. And this is would be a great boon to AP's.

Because once casinos believe they have an unbeatable AI and I then beat it the casino will be so smug they may never know I am there
link to original post

I have written AI programs for board games. My program will beat me badly every time at my favorite board game. And my AI program is not even the best of its class of AI programs. In so many domains, AI is demonstrably better than the best human challengers. In particular, when the final outcome of a game is the result of an accumulation of small tactical advantages, AI dominates mere mortals. The AI searches never make large tactical errors for certain kinds of games. Towards the end of games, it is often possible to do an exhaustive tree search to prove the soundness of the AI-generated moves.

There are many different approaches to AI. It is hubris to think you can compete with them in any domain that doesn't require human-centric decisions. For crunching numbers and finding tactical advantages, AI is just to powerful.
link to original post



Perfect!

Keep that attitude.

Then I will clean up at the casino.
link to original post

There is no evidence that you are currently competing against AI. You are competing against the morons that staff casino promo departments. Card running should be trivially easy to spot with access to the right data. AI would be overkill. The casinos are just too busy raking in money to bother stopping petty theft.
link to original post



You must be getting me confused with someone who commits theft of any kind.

I have already proven in court that is a mistake.

The problem with any AI that is designed to spot AP's is that it must also be designed to not target the regular players.

All I would have to do is figure out what the AI considers a regular player, how to fool the AI by doing things regular players don't do but appear the same and bam I am in.

The more the casino relies on technology to defeat me the more I will beat them.

As for hubris, I am more concerned with humans than AI.

Of course AI can probably best people in chess or board games. There are moves that are available. The AI can calculate these

Advantage players look for the moves that aren't there.

I will give you an example because I sense you don't believe me.

I have a casino right now that uses software to shut down anyone who takes $200 Freeplay without at least $1000 in wagers using cash. So I just have my crew make $1000 wagers at Baccarat.

System fooled

You think the AI will be able to say that competing players are in collusion?

I could arrange it so that five people are wagering different amounts that collectively with a few wagers will meet the $1000 requirements

By the time I got done with advantage players AI the entire casino Freeplay system would be shut down as everyone would be identified as an AP. (And yes I actually did cause a casino once to shut down the entire Freeplay system when they got frustrated they couldn't catch me. They made the announcement over the PA and boy were their regular customers pissed).
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
heatmap
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June 25th, 2023 at 3:08:49 PM permalink
i feel like this previous thread i posted about is somewhat relevant to this conversation feel free to remove it if not

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/poker/33851-dealer-bluff-six-card-poker/

AI has been trying to be in casinos for a while now

Quote: heatmap

Ohh funny.

So im reading something https://web.archive.org/web/20190319091033/https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/10678382.pdf that says :

"

When Shuffle Master submitted the game Dealer Bluff Six Card Poker for
approval, the Gaming Control Board warned the manufacturer that the game
might violate the text of NRS 465.075.99 The problem was that Dealer Bluff
included a small element of artificial intelligence, designed to make it more
interesting for players.100 The Gaming Control Board and Nevada Gaming
Commission described the game as fair,101 and maybe fairer because of the
artificial intelligence element.102 However, the Board and the Commission hesitated to approve the game because it appeared to violate the text of NRS
465.075,103 even though they recognized that the game did not violate the spirit
of the law. Part II.F examines the MindPlay and Dealer Bluff Six Card Poker
incidents in detail.
Ultimately, both the Board and Commission conditionally approved
Dealer Bluff Six Card Poker, but required Shuffle Master to modify and resubmit it for additional approvals.104 Not long after that, the casino industry started
lobbying the legislature to update the law.105

"

and on the link you just sent me :

"

Dealer Bluff is a new poker-based variant I noticed at the Wynn on September 25, 2009. Since then it was removed, the rules were tweaked, and in September 2012 it was put back in the Wynn. In January, 2013, it appeared at the Red Rock.

What sets Dealer Bluff apart from all other poker variants to date is that the dealer makes the first move and the player reacts to what the dealer does. To prevent cheating or reading the dealer's face, this is done with the aid of an electronic card reader, which determines how much the dealer bets.

"

............

heh
link to original post

Last edited by: heatmap on Jun 25, 2023
heatmap
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June 25th, 2023 at 7:20:31 PM permalink
ooh and look they got the law changed lol

AI IS IN YOUR GAMES PEOPLE

AxelWolf
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June 26th, 2023 at 1:07:39 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: Mental

Quote: darkoz

Quote: Mental

Quote: darkoz

My opinion of AI is that it is ultimately beatable just like any computer software. It's ability to think is still limited no matter what garbage people spout

All one has to do is test for it's weaknesses and then exploit it.

This is where people touting AI tell me it's ability to think makes it so malleable it's unbeatable. And this is would be a great boon to AP's.

Because once casinos believe they have an unbeatable AI and I then beat it the casino will be so smug they may never know I am there
link to original post

I have written AI programs for board games. My program will beat me badly every time at my favorite board game. And my AI program is not even the best of its class of AI programs. In so many domains, AI is demonstrably better than the best human challengers. In particular, when the final outcome of a game is the result of an accumulation of small tactical advantages, AI dominates mere mortals. The AI searches never make large tactical errors for certain kinds of games. Towards the end of games, it is often possible to do an exhaustive tree search to prove the soundness of the AI-generated moves.

There are many different approaches to AI. It is hubris to think you can compete with them in any domain that doesn't require human-centric decisions. For crunching numbers and finding tactical advantages, AI is just to powerful.
link to original post



Perfect!

Keep that attitude.

Then I will clean up at the casino.
link to original post

There is no evidence that you are currently competing against AI. You are competing against the morons that staff casino promo departments. Card running should be trivially easy to spot with access to the right data. AI would be overkill. The casinos are just too busy raking in money to bother stopping petty theft.
link to original post



You must be getting me confused with someone who commits theft of any kind.

I have already proven in court that is a mistake.

The problem with any AI that is designed to spot AP's is that it must also be designed to not target the regular players.

All I would have to do is figure out what the AI considers a regular player, how to fool the AI by doing things regular players don't do but appear the same and bam I am in.

The more the casino relies on technology to defeat me the more I will beat them.

As for hubris, I am more concerned with humans than AI.

Of course AI can probably best people in chess or board games. There are moves that are available. The AI can calculate these

Advantage players look for the moves that aren't there.

I will give you an example because I sense you don't believe me.

I have a casino right now that uses software to shut down anyone who takes $200 Freeplay without at least $1000 in wagers using cash. So I just have my crew make $1000 wagers at Baccarat.

System fooled

You think the AI will be able to say that competing players are in collusion?

I could arrange it so that five people are wagering different amounts that collectively with a few wagers will meet the $1000 requirements

By the time I got done with advantage players AI the entire casino Freeplay system would be shut down as everyone would be identified as an AP. (And yes I actually did cause a casino once to shut down the entire Freeplay system when they got frustrated they couldn't catch me. They made the announcement over the PA and boy were their regular customers pissed).
link to original post

I think you confused what he was saying. I read it as the casinos spending too much time/money/effort looking for petty thieves instead of advantage players.

I do believe AI could put a huge damper on certain forms of Advantage play if done properly, however as you pointed out, that might also mess with regular customers, but they could fine-tune it and figure that all out. You'll probably still need a human to deal with certain aspects for now.

Let's not confuse a static mail algorithm/matrix with AI. If AI learns as it goes and corrects its mistakes while adding new roadblocks, it could be a significant casino tool used to greatly reduce their exposure to Advantage Players.

I can think of a few ways they could really put the screws to Advantage Players working casino mail without any complicated AI. With the adaptation of those things and AI in the near future, I can see a situation where there's little advantage to be had doing casino mail.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
darkoz
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June 26th, 2023 at 4:04:13 AM permalink
Regardless of what people think of AI, their fears etc, it's not some mystical magical omniscient supernatural being

It's programming even if quite advanced.

And any bit of programming can be overcome. Sorry I have been overcoming software for quite some time.

It's learning abilities and adaptability are predicate on it's knowing what to adapt to. If it's not programmed or told what to even adapt to then it's not beating AP at least it won't beat me.

As with the example I gave above there is really no way for human or software to take disparate unrelated players accounts doing gambling at different tables and start comparing their activities especially when it can be hidden with multiple bets.

Again the AI is powerful but not omniscient or supernatural.

New technology always brings these radical fears. Watch scifi from the sixties and computers were starting Terminators and taking over matrix of the world order. Today the idea that an IBM computer is dangerous is as funny as a killer bunny rabbit.

Microwave ovens and television sets both caused cancer...not.
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heatmap
heatmap
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June 26th, 2023 at 8:44:08 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz


It's learning abilities and adaptability are predicate on it's knowing what to adapt to. If it's not programmed or told what to even adapt to then it's not beating AP at least it won't beat me.

link to original post



just asking but ...you think that ... they just wont give them the exact data? - be it inputted by hand or database of some sort -

i dont know for sure but i can guess probably with 100% certainty they have examples whether we know it or not to feed it to the AI and it will learn no matter what we say because its something we KNOW they are doing

but you think they just wont program it just because of why?

i know computers are programmed by humans and that logic is sometimes not sound or thought out.. but thats because humans dont have time and are lazy - both of which AI doesnt even think about... but it is thinking about everything else its told to think about. And now that it can INFER and PREDICT, or hell even randomly brute force a guess, once again faster and more accurately than one or hundreds of humans can do in a very small period of time ...

your probably right as of this point in time but i feel as if you maybe have 10 years max before a solution is put into place ... hell they may even justify non random number generation as a way to thwart AP IMO
darkoz
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June 26th, 2023 at 9:16:58 AM permalink
Quote: heatmap

Quote: darkoz


It's learning abilities and adaptability are predicate on it's knowing what to adapt to. If it's not programmed or told what to even adapt to then it's not beating AP at least it won't beat me.

link to original post



just asking but ...you think that ... they just wont give them the exact data? - be it inputted by hand or database of some sort -

i dont know for sure but i can guess probably with 100% certainty they have examples whether we know it or not to feed it to the AI and it will learn no matter what we say because its something we KNOW they are doing

but you think they just wont program it just because of why?

i know computers are programmed by humans and that logic is sometimes not sound or thought out.. but thats because humans dont have time and are lazy - both of which AI doesnt even think about... but it is thinking about everything else its told to think about. And now that it can INFER and PREDICT, or hell even randomly brute force a guess, once again faster and more accurately than one or hundreds of humans can do in a very small period of time ...

your probably right as of this point in time but i feel as if you maybe have 10 years max before a solution is put into place ... hell they may even justify non random number generation as a way to thwart AP IMO
link to original post



I think you kind of just agreed with me even though you don't realize it.

The humans won't give them the exact data because the humans don't know the exact data.

I had a lawsuit against a casino in 2019. Testifying against me the casino called in an expert to explain to the jury just what it was I did and how.

He got everything he explained one hundred percent wrong. Of course I couldn't testify how he didn't know his arse from his mouth.

The humans aren't educated to what I do how are they going to educate the AI?

I just dealt with a translation AI. I discovered that it translated the word Tintorera wrong. Every time it translated Tintorera (from Spanish to English) it called it "dry cleaner". (It's Tiger Shark BTW). So translation such as "the man beat against the jaws of the dry cleaner" were what I kept getting.

My human brain made the correction instantly. The AI? Ultimately it's a computer program.

If that had been an AP opportunity, say where I got a nickel for every wrong translation I would have written a novel with one word repeated over and over. Tintorera. And cleaned house.

The AI is still going to only be as good as the knowledge it is fed. Garbage in garbage out.
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Mental
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June 26th, 2023 at 12:09:58 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

Quote: darkoz


It's learning abilities and adaptability are predicate on it's knowing what to adapt to. If it's not programmed or told what to even adapt to then it's not beating AP at least it won't beat me.

link to original post



just asking but ...you think that ... they just wont give them the exact data? - be it inputted by hand or database of some sort -

i dont know for sure but i can guess probably with 100% certainty they have examples whether we know it or not to feed it to the AI and it will learn no matter what we say because its something we KNOW they are doing

but you think they just wont program it just because of why?

i know computers are programmed by humans and that logic is sometimes not sound or thought out.. but thats because humans dont have time and are lazy - both of which AI doesnt even think about... but it is thinking about everything else its told to think about. And now that it can INFER and PREDICT, or hell even randomly brute force a guess, once again faster and more accurately than one or hundreds of humans can do in a very small period of time ...

your probably right as of this point in time but i feel as if you maybe have 10 years max before a solution is put into place ... hell they may even justify non random number generation as a way to thwart AP IMO
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Darkoz thinks someone program the AI to find the AP players. In practice, they will just show the AI examples of the behavior of players who are known to be unprofitable. After it is sufficiently trained, the AI will quite accurately identify players with similar patterns of behavior.

I was working on an AI program for searching foreign language text for sentences, phrases, or even just concepts. You entered the query in English, and the AI would tell you which texts most closely matched. The program converted the semantics of text to vectors and then minimized cosines between vectors. I do not read or speak any foreign languages well. I just trained the program using pairs of documents which had been translated by humans from six foreign languages to English. This research was done in the 1990s and was funded by the CIA but was unclassified. It worked spooky well once it was trained.

I did not invent the technique, but I was tasked to implement it to run large databases on 1990s hardware. The problem was that I needed to diagonalize vectors with thousands of dimensions. I really needed a processor with a 64-bit memory addresses, and I did not have it at the time. The government told us that they could get any hardware we needed. Cheap hardware and sophisticated off-the-shelf AI software are now available for anyone with the brains to use them.

The software to do what Acres Manufacturing is offering does not even need AI. It could be implemented as a simple lookup table. The real difficulty is extracting the details of the played hands from the current game hardware and pulling all play from one player account into one data query so the AI can chew on it. The online casinos are already creating these databases with every player decision stored in transaction logs. They just haven't used them effectively yet because they currently prioritized market share.
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darkoz
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June 26th, 2023 at 12:37:05 PM permalink
Quote: Mental

Quote: heatmap

Quote: darkoz


It's learning abilities and adaptability are predicate on it's knowing what to adapt to. If it's not programmed or told what to even adapt to then it's not beating AP at least it won't beat me.

link to original post



just asking but ...you think that ... they just wont give them the exact data? - be it inputted by hand or database of some sort -

i dont know for sure but i can guess probably with 100% certainty they have examples whether we know it or not to feed it to the AI and it will learn no matter what we say because its something we KNOW they are doing

but you think they just wont program it just because of why?

i know computers are programmed by humans and that logic is sometimes not sound or thought out.. but thats because humans dont have time and are lazy - both of which AI doesnt even think about... but it is thinking about everything else its told to think about. And now that it can INFER and PREDICT, or hell even randomly brute force a guess, once again faster and more accurately than one or hundreds of humans can do in a very small period of time ...

your probably right as of this point in time but i feel as if you maybe have 10 years max before a solution is put into place ... hell they may even justify non random number generation as a way to thwart AP IMO
link to original post

Darkoz thinks someone program the AI to find the AP players. In practice, they will just show the AI examples of the behavior of PLAYERS WHO ARE KNOWN TO BE UNPROFITABLE . After it is sufficiently trained, the AI will quite accurately identify players with similar patterns of behavior.

link to original post



I highlighted the shining example of why AI is beatable in your response.

The humans at the casino DON'T KNOW which players are known to be unprofitable.

You are making their mistake to assume they do.

For example you say the AI will have the capability to amass all the data from players cards.

Are you aware there are advantage plays that don't require players cards?????????

What is AI going to do with zero data acquired?????

There are advantage plays which cross utilize play that's rated with play that isn't rated

There are advantage plays that make a players accrued losses look huge when in fact the player has actually WON money. Yes, I can actually show a loss (equalling profit) on a players account when in fact it was me who made the profit

I'm not going to describe here all those trade secrets but the more you point out how AI will defeat me the more I am confident AI will be my greatest boon.

AI the casinos have 100% faith in to stop me so they just rely totally on it and I sweep in.

Reminds me of a case years ago in court when DNA proved an innocent man had committed rape. Everyone said he had to have done it because DNA is infallible. Faith in DNA was no different than what you are saying here about AI.

So what happened? The information input into the DNA database was wrong. Garbage in garbage out. Just like always. The lab was investigated and turned out had put an innocent man in jail BASED ON INFALLIBLE DNA.

I can see you won't be swayed. Again that's going to be my meal ticket. Let the experts believe they have the answers.
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June 26th, 2023 at 3:22:08 PM permalink
im on your side that humans create crappy logic in programming sometimes but im in a disagreement about the data thing. theres plenty of data that no one tells you they have. the can buy it if not. the data is there and with AI the human element means nothing.

its so true that computers and robots will eventually take over in the sense that humans are dumb enough to trust computers to rule over them
darkoz
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June 26th, 2023 at 4:08:38 PM permalink
I guess when I am finished I will have to write a book about how I beat the casinos AI.

That's after I write the book how I currently beat the casinos facial recognition.

And after I write the book explaining how I beat the casinos comps system.
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heatmap
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June 26th, 2023 at 5:38:36 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

I guess when I am finished I will have to write a book about how I beat the casinos AI.

That's after I write the book how I currently beat the casinos facial recognition.

And after I write the book explaining how I beat the casinos comps system.
link to original post



i would buy it... actually im sorry ive never bought a book or really anything entertainment in my life i would download it illegally and if i liked it i would buy it to support you

i dont care how much you argue with us i love you no matter what
darkoz
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June 26th, 2023 at 6:26:56 PM permalink
Quote: heatmap

Quote: darkoz

I guess when I am finished I will have to write a book about how I beat the casinos AI.

That's after I write the book how I currently beat the casinos facial recognition.

And after I write the book explaining how I beat the casinos comps system.
link to original post



i would buy it... actually im sorry ive never bought a book or really anything entertainment in my life i would download it illegally and if i liked it i would buy it to support you

i dont care how much you argue with us i love you no matter what
link to original post



Hmmm

You probably have more to be concerned about AI that prevents illegal downloads than I do of being beat at AP

Just an observation.
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heatmap
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June 26th, 2023 at 6:54:42 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: heatmap

Quote: darkoz

I guess when I am finished I will have to write a book about how I beat the casinos AI.

That's after I write the book how I currently beat the casinos facial recognition.

And after I write the book explaining how I beat the casinos comps system.
link to original post



i would buy it... actually im sorry ive never bought a book or really anything entertainment in my life i would download it illegally and if i liked it i would buy it to support you

i dont care how much you argue with us i love you no matter what
link to original post



Hmmm

You probably have more to be concerned about AI that prevents illegal downloads than I do of being beat at AP

Just an observation.
link to original post



they dont care about the people downloading they care about the people who provide the download
darkoz
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July 16th, 2023 at 1:08:36 PM permalink
So I still feel I could outsmart an advantage gambling AI that the casinos might install

For our purposes let's call this the AAP (Anti-Advantage-Play AI).

The casinos install this and go "aha, now that our AI is on the job we have nothing to worry about. Humans can't outsmart AI."

What's to stop me from writing or maybe even purchasing (don't laugh because as soon as they came out with an unbreakable encryption for Blu-ray I purchased a few months later a decryption software that broke the unbreakable encryption) my own AI.

I purchase the PAP (Pro-Advantage-Player) AI which examines everything the casinos AI does to stop me and that then figures out how to overcome the casinos AI.

And that's probably something the casino bosses and casino AI didn't even think about lol.
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AxelWolf
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July 16th, 2023 at 4:23:56 PM permalink
Quote: darkoz

So I still feel I could outsmart an advantage gambling AI that the casinos might install

For our purposes let's call this the AAP (Anti-Advantage-Play AI).

The casinos install this and go "aha, now that our AI is on the job we have nothing to worry about. Humans can't outsmart AI."

What's to stop me from writing or maybe even purchasing (don't laugh because as soon as they came out with an unbreakable encryption for Blu-ray I purchased a few months later a decryption software that broke the unbreakable encryption) my own AI.

I purchase the PAP (Pro-Advantage-Player) AI which examines everything the casinos AI does to stop me and that then figures out how to overcome the casinos AI.

And that's probably something the casino bosses and casino AI didn't even think about lol.
link to original post

If the AI figures out how to make sure there's no advantage to be had, no matter what the situation, then there's no advantage to be had. The question is... can they retain and entice regular players to keep returning.

I have been to many casinos where there is no worthwhile advantage to be had.

I highly doubt AI will be foiling Advantage Play any time soon, but the technology will exist.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
billryan
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July 16th, 2023 at 4:36:53 PM permalink
How far are we from smart cards that will only work for the person whose photo and thumbprint are on the card?
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DRich
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July 16th, 2023 at 5:20:55 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf



I have been to many casinos where there is no worthwhile advantage to be had.

I highly doubt AI will be foiling Advantage Play any time soon, but the technology will exist.



There will always be advantages to be had because people are flawed and lazy.
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Mental
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July 16th, 2023 at 5:37:29 PM permalink
If I had the timestamps for when cards were inserted and then removed from the card reader for every account in a casino, I think I could easily identify the cards used by a player coming into a casino and playing with the same stack of cards on multiple days. I wouldn't even need AI. Just look for correlations between cards and days played across all accounts. The only cards that would have high correlation would be legit players traveling to the casino together almost every time and the card runners.

If a card runner only plays on one card at a time and never has any two accounts active at the same time, they make it even easier to find the cards in the card runner's stack. What are the chances that two players come in on the same four days in every month, but never are playing at exactly the same time? This test would eliminate false positives for couples or folks who arrive on the same bus.

Admittedly, this kind of search is way over the heads of the average casino manager, and they would need a database programmer to write the query.
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Zcore13
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July 16th, 2023 at 6:14:36 PM permalink
Quote: calwatch

I just think casinos can already under-comp people who play only good machines and overcomp the people who play the worse machines and the carnival games. It could provide some benefit for Ultimate X, where the strategy is much more complicated and so the actual hold is much less than the mathematical expected return of the machine, but the number of people who play Ultimate X even close to well is not that high, and they tend to be some of the casino's better patrons. If I play only 9/6 Jacks and BPD, and NSUD, even though the casino may set the number of points per dollar of VP to be the same, I would never expect to receive bounceback and free rooms the same as someone who play 8/5 DDB DSTP or 6/5 Bonus Ultimate X. They can already identify sharp players through their player profile, without having to pay another company a cut of their profits.
link to original post



All games are comped on optimal play. People that play worse (in table games) lose more, but get comped the same for the same time of play. Worse players can get a fair amount more of discretionary comps from Supervisors or Hosts in places that allow that.


ZCore13
I am an employee of a Casino. Former Table Games Director,, current Pit Supervisor. All the personal opinions I post are my own and do not represent the opinions of the Casino or Tribe that I work for.
AxelWolf
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July 16th, 2023 at 7:03:26 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

Quote: AxelWolf



I have been to many casinos where there is no worthwhile advantage to be had.

I highly doubt AI will be foiling Advantage Play any time soon, but the technology will exist.



There will always be advantages to be had because people are flawed and lazy.
link to original post

I agree aith you. And we are not talking about humans we are talking about a situation where a company comes up with a sophisticated AI program designed to get rid of Advantage Play.

There will be many areas where they can defeat AP.

I have seen this online(no AI needed)

They can offer huge bonuses 100% to 600% they are not beatable given the restrictions and wagering requirements.

There's a big difference between an Advantage and worthwhile.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
darkoz
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July 16th, 2023 at 8:48:15 PM permalink
Quote: Mental

If I had the timestamps for when cards were inserted and then removed from the card reader for every account in a casino, I think I could easily identify the cards used by a player coming into a casino and playing with the same stack of cards on multiple days. I wouldn't even need AI. Just look for correlations between cards and days played across all accounts. The only cards that would have high correlation would be legit players traveling to the casino together almost every time and the card runners.

If a card runner only plays on one card at a time and never has any two accounts active at the same time, they make it even easier to find the cards in the card runner's stack. What are the chances that two players come in on the same four days in every month, but never are playing at exactly the same time? This test would eliminate false positives for couples or folks who arrive on the same bus.

Admittedly, this kind of search is way over the heads of the average casino manager, and they would need a database programmer to write the query.
link to original post



Lots of people come in on bonus days. That's the entire point of Freeplay. To entice people in.

And lots of people have correlated schedules. People go to their jobs the same hours so are prone to arrive at the casino after they worked at the same time every day.

With your plan I am quite certain you would only result in turning off half the working population in your casino because XYZ players always arrived the same four days after each other.
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darkoz
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July 16th, 2023 at 8:51:25 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: darkoz

So I still feel I could outsmart an advantage gambling AI that the casinos might install

For our purposes let's call this the AAP (Anti-Advantage-Play AI).

The casinos install this and go "aha, now that our AI is on the job we have nothing to worry about. Humans can't outsmart AI."

What's to stop me from writing or maybe even purchasing (don't laugh because as soon as they came out with an unbreakable encryption for Blu-ray I purchased a few months later a decryption software that broke the unbreakable encryption) my own AI.

I purchase the PAP (Pro-Advantage-Player) AI which examines everything the casinos AI does to stop me and that then figures out how to overcome the casinos AI.

And that's probably something the casino bosses and casino AI didn't even think about lol.
link to original post

If the AI figures out how to make sure there's no advantage to be had, no matter what the situation, then there's no advantage to be had. The question is... can they retain and entice regular players to keep returning.

I have been to many casinos where there is no worthwhile advantage to be had.

I highly doubt AI will be foiling Advantage Play any time soon, but the technology will exist.
link to original post



You are absolutely right.

What I am saying is if the AI identifies an advantage and wants to keep it to entice regular players and the AI is programed to determine who the advantage players are by their actions can't I just get my own AI to figure out what their AI is identifying so I can defeat it.
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Mental
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July 17th, 2023 at 4:40:46 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: Mental

If I had the timestamps for when cards were inserted and then removed from the card reader for every account in a casino, I think I could easily identify the cards used by a player coming into a casino and playing with the same stack of cards on multiple days. I wouldn't even need AI. Just look for correlations between cards and days played across all accounts. The only cards that would have high correlation would be legit players traveling to the casino together almost every time and the card runners.

If a card runner only plays on one card at a time and never has any two accounts active at the same time, they make it even easier to find the cards in the card runner's stack. What are the chances that two players come in on the same four days in every month, but never are playing at exactly the same time? This test would eliminate false positives for couples or folks who arrive on the same bus.

Admittedly, this kind of search is way over the heads of the average casino manager, and they would need a database programmer to write the query.
link to original post



Lots of people come in on bonus days. That's the entire point of Freeplay. To entice people in.

And lots of people have correlated schedules. People go to their jobs the same hours so are prone to arrive at the casino after they worked at the same time every day.

With your plan I am quite certain you would only result in turning off half the working population in your casino because XYZ players always arrived the same four days after each other.
link to original post

You are often quite certain of your statements. In this case, your certainty seems misplaced. Given enough time and data, the chances that the same 28 cards show up on the same 50 days of the year is vanishingly small. The chances that they are there on the same days, but not ever inserted at the same time gets infinitesimally small. I don't think I would have a single false positive in a year at a large casino.

You claim to cost the casinos major cash, so eliminating one bus patron to zap your cards would be a big benefit.

You can take countermeasures if you know you have to disguise your card running, but it will cut into your throughput.
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darkoz
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July 17th, 2023 at 5:23:57 AM permalink
Quote: Mental

Quote: darkoz

Quote: Mental

If I had the timestamps for when cards were inserted and then removed from the card reader for every account in a casino, I think I could easily identify the cards used by a player coming into a casino and playing with the same stack of cards on multiple days. I wouldn't even need AI. Just look for correlations between cards and days played across all accounts. The only cards that would have high correlation would be legit players traveling to the casino together almost every time and the card runners.

If a card runner only plays on one card at a time and never has any two accounts active at the same time, they make it even easier to find the cards in the card runner's stack. What are the chances that two players come in on the same four days in every month, but never are playing at exactly the same time? This test would eliminate false positives for couples or folks who arrive on the same bus.

Admittedly, this kind of search is way over the heads of the average casino manager, and they would need a database programmer to write the query.
link to original post



Lots of people come in on bonus days. That's the entire point of Freeplay. To entice people in.

And lots of people have correlated schedules. People go to their jobs the same hours so are prone to arrive at the casino after they worked at the same time every day.

With your plan I am quite certain you would only result in turning off half the working population in your casino because XYZ players always arrived the same four days after each other.
link to original post

You are often quite certain of your statements. In this case, your certainty seems misplaced. Given enough time and data, the chances that the same 28 cards show up on the same 50 days of the year is vanishingly small. The chances that they are there on the same days, but not ever inserted at the same time gets infinitesimally small. I don't think I would have a single false positive in a year at a large casino.

You claim to cost the casinos major cash, so eliminating one bus patron to zap your cards would be a big benefit.

You can take countermeasures if you know you have to disguise your card running, but it will cut into your throughput.
link to original post



I don't just claim to beat the casinos of major cash. I actually do.

You claim you could counteract what I do. But you actually don't.

Who is making the claims here?
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billryan
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July 17th, 2023 at 5:54:20 AM permalink
As Grandma used to tell us- Those who can, do. Those who can't brag about it on the internet.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
darkoz
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July 17th, 2023 at 6:55:59 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

As Grandma used to tell us- Those who can, do. Those who can't brag about it on the internet.
link to original post



Your Grandma had the internet?
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Mental
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July 17th, 2023 at 7:19:05 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Quote: billryan

As Grandma used to tell us- Those who can, do. Those who can't brag about it on the internet.
link to original post



Your Grandma had the internet?
link to original post

I think billyran is being ironic.

My grandma worked for the telephone company 112 years ago, so she was at the forefront of modern technology. She died in 1989, the year that Tim Berners-Lee invented the World Wide Web.
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Talldude90
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July 19th, 2023 at 12:16:49 AM permalink
Could we not use AP knowledge to tell the casinos how to find APs just to try to one up another forum member... I mean free speech and all, but if they really aren't that smart, no need to wizen them up... I could easily help a programmer catch me and others like me, but I'd have to be paid ridiculously large sums to do so (way more than they are smart enough or willing to offer), and wouldn't do it for free on a public forum unless I meant to substantially harm others in the game.
darkoz
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July 19th, 2023 at 12:51:59 AM permalink
I'm actually quite certain I was just attacked by an AI in the casinos.

Gathering some extra data before I create a thread about it.

If it is an AI, I have already identified it's purpose, it's uses, and how to circumvent it

AI destroyed in less than a week.

Will probably post about it by Thursday.
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DRich
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July 19th, 2023 at 6:36:57 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: DRich

Quote: AxelWolf



I have been to many casinos where there is no worthwhile advantage to be had.

I highly doubt AI will be foiling Advantage Play any time soon, but the technology will exist.



There will always be advantages to be had because people are flawed and lazy.
link to original post

I agree aith you. And we are not talking about humans we are talking about a situation where a company comes up with a sophisticated AI program designed to get rid of Advantage Play.

There will be many areas where they can defeat AP.

I have seen this online(no AI needed)

They can offer huge bonuses 100% to 600% they are not beatable given the restrictions and wagering requirements.

There's a big difference between an Advantage and worthwhile.
link to original post



Yes, but lazy humans still have to program the AI.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
AxelWolf
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July 19th, 2023 at 5:05:15 PM permalink
Quote: DRich

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: DRich

Quote: AxelWolf



I have been to many casinos where there is no worthwhile advantage to be had.

I highly doubt AI will be foiling Advantage Play any time soon, but the technology will exist.



There will always be advantages to be had because people are flawed and lazy.
link to original post

I agree aith you. And we are not talking about humans we are talking about a situation where a company comes up with a sophisticated AI program designed to get rid of Advantage Play.

There will be many areas where they can defeat AP.

I have seen this online(no AI needed)

They can offer huge bonuses 100% to 600% they are not beatable given the restrictions and wagering requirements.

There's a big difference between an Advantage and worthwhile.
link to original post



Yes, but lazy humans still have to program the AI.
link to original post

I'm just assuming someone will eventually program software that's standard on all machines and slot clubs.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
heatmap
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July 20th, 2023 at 4:48:05 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: DRich

Quote: AxelWolf

Quote: DRich

Quote: AxelWolf



I have been to many casinos where there is no worthwhile advantage to be had.

I highly doubt AI will be foiling Advantage Play any time soon, but the technology will exist.



There will always be advantages to be had because people are flawed and lazy.
link to original post

I agree aith you. And we are not talking about humans we are talking about a situation where a company comes up with a sophisticated AI program designed to get rid of Advantage Play.

There will be many areas where they can defeat AP.

I have seen this online(no AI needed)

They can offer huge bonuses 100% to 600% they are not beatable given the restrictions and wagering requirements.

There's a big difference between an Advantage and worthwhile.
link to original post



Yes, but lazy humans still have to program the AI.
link to original post

I'm just assuming someone will eventually program software that's standard on all machines and slot clubs.
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whats funny is that when people say things like "casinos could never afford to produce X product" or anything similar i just laugh because they dont need to initially afford to produce it .... because people are just coming up with ideas, producing them and selling them to companies such as casinos. Casinos and AI are two separate ideas which have been produced independently of each other but have converged.
SOOPOO
SOOPOO
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July 20th, 2023 at 11:14:08 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

I'm actually quite certain I was just attacked by an AI in the casinos.

Gathering some extra data before I create a thread about it.

If it is an AI, I have already identified it's purpose, it's uses, and how to circumvent it

AI destroyed in less than a week.

Will probably post about it by Thursday.
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Sounds good. Please start a new thread as it sounds like it will deserve its own!
darkoz
darkoz
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August 20th, 2023 at 4:30:24 PM permalink
Here is an example of what might happen if AI becomes used to stop AP's.

The book "Friday Night Lights" has been banned in Iowa because an AI identified a sexually explicit scene in the book. The only problem is the book has no sexually explicit scene.

But more interest to me is the school board decided they trust the AI more. They claimed they don't have the time to check everything the AI discovers and they just trust it so the book remains banned in Iowa.

SO, if that same situation were to occur in the casinos, absolute trust in the AI, and the AI was discovered by an AP to have some gap in its abilities, that would be exploited.

Once humans trust AI to make their decisions for them, there will be other humans who will take advantage of that trust.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/friday-night-lights-author-furious-after-school-district-pulls-book-for-depiction-of-sex-act-that-doesn-t-exist/ar-AA1fvmnD?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=05b193326f5a4280ae8b2a7a9f111b2a&ei=9
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
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