Poll

1 vote (9.09%)
No votes (0%)
No votes (0%)
2 votes (18.18%)
2 votes (18.18%)
No votes (0%)
No votes (0%)
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5 votes (45.45%)
2 votes (18.18%)

11 members have voted

DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
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November 19th, 2010 at 9:03:22 AM permalink
PaiGowDan's thread, The G2E 2010 Experience, has a poll about attendance, but few people voted. I'm sure the reason is, all the choices are "I went ..."

For the record, I wish I could have been there, for several reasons.

But ignoring the expense, particularly for out-of-towners, if you could go, in what capacity would you do so?


For clarification, VENDOR includes everyone trying to sell some product to the casino AND hotel indistry and their support industry. It would include companies that manufacture / distribute everything from table felts, to foor & beverage, to toilet paper, and everything in between, including manufacturers of slot machine COMPONENTS, but not the slot machine manufacturers themselves.

I.E. Bally's and IGT, et al, would be a designer. A company that has a new video display that they are trying to sell to IGT or Bally's, is a vendor.

Dan and I, as inventors of game ideas, would be designers.
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁 Note that the same could be said for Religion. I.E. Religion is nothing more than organized superstition. 🤗
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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November 19th, 2010 at 9:27:58 AM permalink
There are stats on it somewhere.

The vast majority were game designer-vendors looking for sales and installs, as big as they are (Shuffle, IGT, DEQ, WMS, Galaxy), and Casino operators were looking to buy better, newer, and cheaper. Little game designers did poorly, their RV's parked somewhere, sitting around in their tiny booths looking sad while everyone went to Shufflemaster, IGT, Galaxy, and DEQ. Mike took a snapshot of one such fellow. You REALLY need to be a Brad-Pitt looking Sales VP in Armani standing next to an Asian porn star to look sharp at this dog-and-pony show.

Vendors did well: card manufacturers, game table carpenters/manufacturers, surveillance, electronic player tracking, chip makers, hotel maintenance supplies (Oreck vacuums et al).

Support people like mathematicians roamed the floor and got leads ("Charles" got a good new customer, and also got paid back from a customer who rented a booth there. Paid for his trip! "HEY!" he said, "if you can afford to rent a booth here, you can afford to pay your balance with me, shoot!")

I got into a conversation with a casino operator who wants to try two of my "very fine but dormant" table game products. You meet just ONE key person, and you get a lucky break.

You don't have to get a booth to be there. You buy a convention pass, and show up in a suit and some business cards/documentation in a shoulder bag, and work the floor.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
Joined: Aug 31, 2010
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November 29th, 2010 at 7:07:24 PM permalink
I think of myself as a vendor, designer, mathematician, and other. But I wear many hats - I'm being deposed tomorrow.

FYI, IGT thinks of themselves as a vendor - it's usually just divided between "vendors" and "operators", where operators are the casinos or betting salons and vendors are everyone who sells to operators (either directly or indirectly). As for my trip, it went very well. I came away with "let's figure out a deal" from three different vendors and "let's talk after Thanksgiving" from three others. Stay tuned.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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November 29th, 2010 at 11:30:24 PM permalink
Stacy, it's remarkable how many contacts can be made when you think there isn't a chance in that crowd. G2E was useful.

Sales are made, and in many cases poor gaming products are proven so to the point of cancelation, allowing better development. It's in a way like one big focus group: look at people's reacion and listen to the comments. AND make contacts, exchange business cards to be later used.

I AM being to think that the point of diminishing returns for game designers and their support will suffer, except for the legal end.

The sheer number of viable table game and slot products causes a "three's a crowd" scenario. The choice is thining the herd. Tonight we installed a new (for us) BJ side bet called "Bust it!" - Dealer has a three-card bust hand, your side bet gets paid, varying with the level of bust card. (See: www.nugames.net)

Just joking with the Shift Manager, the comment was: "I too have invented a new game. It's called 'Just Freakn' Blackjack!' No side bet at all, with more hands per hour, and less dealer errors to boot. You know, you can run a whole casino on just pure Blackjack, Roulette, Dice, and a poker room, and not pay a vendor a cent! Players and dealers are getting annoyed at the confusion."

That was scary to hear.

But with the crowded market, there's more "You infringed MY patent and Game!" followed by "No! - YOU did!"

Who knows what the future holds.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
thecesspit
thecesspit
Joined: Apr 19, 2010
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November 29th, 2010 at 11:49:27 PM permalink
I'd much rather see a new interesting game than another side bet... I look at most of them and wonder why... the worst I saw was at the Orleans with a repeater bet on craps. Hit the same point three or four times, get paid out. Ad I pointed out to the dealer, if someone can throw me three points period, I'm already making out well. Someone hits three of the same in one roll, they'll be chips flying plenty enough that some crappy bonus bet is small fry.

I do like the all tall/all small bets in craps. Far more interesting.

Other than that, I know enough that they are sucker bets with no game attached.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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November 30th, 2010 at 12:10:03 AM permalink
Quote: thecesspit

I'd much rather see a new interesting game than another side bet....


Amen.
As a game designer, some side bets are just a cop-out, just a petty brainless distraction that interfers with the main game's focus - a throw-on.
GOOD new side bets are an interesting new game unto themselves, not overly complex, and that also meld very well with the games they're overlaid on, very hard to do, and there are very few of them. Dave's Poker-for-Roulette is very good, I think, creating a five-spin game on top of the base game, also using the zeros as special exception wild cards, as they are exceptions in the base game, too. Games that significantly alter or interfere with the base-game strategy, or have zilch to do with the base game are peeves.

I tell you, I have LOST COUNT of the number of BJ side bets out there! (CAN WE MAKE A FULL LIST OF THEM??!!) I swear, I am going to release a full-blown gag side bet for BJ.
I saw only one awesome side bet for BJ from a designer that never made it to distribution, with the patent expiring in the provisional stage. It would have rocked, but alas.

I have a new game I'm waiting for feedback from both my distributor and Mike, to bounce by here.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
DeMango
DeMango
Joined: Feb 2, 2010
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November 30th, 2010 at 2:54:05 AM permalink
I would love to be able to buy extreme numbers in craps without playing crapless which eliminates don't play.
Slowly all/tall/small is spreading, more likely than nailing the firebet!
Free Mdawg!
FleaStiff
FleaStiff
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November 30th, 2010 at 4:08:17 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Just joking with the Shift Manager, the comment was: "I too have invented a new game. It's called 'Just Freakn' Blackjack!' No side bet at all, with more hands per hour, and less dealer errors to boot. You know, you can run a whole casino on just pure Blackjack, Roulette, Dice, and a poker room, and not pay a vendor a cent! Players and dealers are getting annoyed at the confusion."
That was scary to hear.


It may have been scary to hear but it is a long overdue comment and is of great importance.

Consider how the various major fast food chains have all expanded their menus and increased the various options: burgers, salads, various condiments, ... its increased their training burden and markedly decreased the "fast" part of 'fast food'. It has caused the growth of other firms that are the simple "Burger, fries, shake" barebones operations that have a much more limited menu but know that fast food means fast: it doesn't mean smiles, folding the bag, new product lessons, training, hiring... it means "we make burgers and we sell them the customers FAST".

Now consider some of these side bets and a group of friends milling about the casino and not really knowing the games. Its going to soon be like ordering a cup of coffee in starbucks... after you've answered the twenty questions about size, shape, caffeine, here or to go, east side of mountain or sweatshop labor and whether you want room for cream... it becomes a matter of being tempted to say "Oh forget it... I just wanted a cup of coffee, not an interrogation". I can see some dealer having to explain side bets and keep track of things and ooops, Its Lalapaloosa Tuesday so a red deuce as my hole card means a two point multiplier on the CutesySideBet. Egads...

Makes one want to seriously think that perhaps someone really should just stick to the tried and true Real Blackjack, Craps, Roulette, Baccarat, etc.

Look elsewhere in the casino at what people seem to value: FAST check in, not free cocktails during check-in... FAST check in. Fast access to valet parked cars, such as physically distant Valet Parking Card Swipe Machines. FAST check outs. Sure people go for leisurely meals but there is a tremendous boom in Food Courts in the casinos where people just want something simple and quick. Even the larger restaurants have signs "The wait is Thirty Minutes from the location of this Sign".

Everything elsewhere is dedicated to speed and efficiency: bedsheets, vacuuming, newspaper delivery, elevator scheduling, uniform cleaning, ... yet in the casino it seems the focus is on increased complexity and increased delays.

You can't introduce a new word processor in the market place simply because it has good features, it has to be sufficiently better than what exists to be worth the learning curve. You can't introduce a really good operating system just because its got some really nifty tweaks that make it an improvement over Unix, it has to be sufficiently better to be worth the switchover. You can't introduce anything outside the casino unless it is a marked improvement, but inside the casino it seems everyone is trying to add New Wrinkles, New Adjectives, New Signs, New Procedures, and yet none of it really adds to the players enjoyment or to the casino's bottom line.

Ask any cocktail waitress or bar tender... they know not to introduce exotic drinks requiring umpteen steps of mixing and measuring various ingredients and using a zillion different glasses. Standard drinks, served fast!

Why can't they just stick with the tried and true games?
Blackjack. Not Blackjack with room left for cream. Blackjack!
Craps. Not Craps with small, tall, all, few, none, some, Fire, Water and Ice. Just Craps!

Dealer training will increase, dealer mistakes will increase, surveillance confusion will increase, crowds will mill about wondering if they should try some This or some That but not really be able to do either. People already playing This or That will dread new arrivals because of all the optional side bets that have to be explained. Ever see an oriental person get up from Pai Gow Tiles when an Occidental sits down to play.... and then re-join the game when he realizes the Occidental player doesn't need any annoying lessons from the dealer?

Why do people go to Dottys? Its quick, its simple and while they've got a zillion games, I'm only going to play the ones I like so I don't need nothing new.

The MBA types institute Resort Fees so as to grind out a few more dollars but annoy all the customers by doing it.
Its the same way in the casino: The MBA types want new this and new that so as to grind out a few more dollars but they annoy the dealers and annoy the players.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
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November 30th, 2010 at 5:56:40 AM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Just joking with the Shift Manager, the comment was: "I too have invented a new game. It's called 'Just Freakn' Blackjack!' No side bet at all, with more hands per hour, and less dealer errors to boot. You know, you can run a whole casino on just pure Blackjack, Roulette, Dice, and a poker room, and not pay a vendor a cent! Players and dealers are getting annoyed at the confusion."

That was scary to hear.

From a developer's standpoint, yeah, that IS scary. From a gambler's standpoint, I totally agree.

Ya know what? I've stopped playing blackjack for two reasons: 1- It's too hard to find a table with low limits and good rules. 2 - If your hand would have paid on the side bet, and you don't play the side bet, it's impossible to find a table where the other players would just keep their f---ing comments to themselves.

That's another reason I like my idea. While it's gonna suck being the guy who didn't bet it when it hits big, the other players won't need to rub it in.



Quote: thecesspit

I'd much rather see a new interesting game than another side bet....

Well, if Croupier has his way, you'll see his game in a casino someday.

FYI: He told me, in confidence, about an idea he's working on. It's an interesting concept. Sure, it needs tweaks (what new idea doesn't?), but I like it. Hopefully, he'll get a preliminary patent on it and then start talking openly about it...



Quote: FleaStiff

...Its Lalapaloosa Tuesday so a red deuce as my hole card means a two point multiplier on the CutesySideBet. Egads...

Why can't they just stick with the tried and true games?
Blackjack. Not Blackjack with room left for cream. Blackjack!
Craps. Not Craps with small, tall, all, few, none, some, Fire, Water and Ice. Just Craps!

Love those comments.

You've reminded me of a episode of M*A*S*H where they're playing dealer's choice poker. It's Hawkeye's deal and he rattles off the rules and wilds. Trapper's response was "...except February which has 28."
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁 Note that the same could be said for Religion. I.E. Religion is nothing more than organized superstition. 🤗
ElectricDreams
ElectricDreams
Joined: Sep 8, 2010
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November 30th, 2010 at 9:04:27 AM permalink
Quote: DeMango

I would love to be able to buy extreme numbers in craps without playing crapless which eliminates don't play.



So you'd like to buy the three, for example? That's an interesting idea. The layout might be a bit confusing - you'd have to indicate that the extreme numbers aren't eligible to be points, while the normal point numbers are; maybe make them smaller boxes, or outline them in red, or something.

Anyway, to stay OT: I'd just like to go there as an interested gambler. Seeing all those potentially new games would definitely be fun.

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