Shadow casinos

That joint in the background is a tavern? Slot parlor? Whatever?
Well, these are intensely local businesses, so as long as it fits in the neighborhood ... who knows?

Quote: FleaStiff

That joint in the background is a tavern? Slot parlor? Whatever?
Well, these are intensely local businesses, so as long as it fits in the neighborhood ... who knows?

Jackson street was the historical entertainment district for black people in the 1950's when the city was rabidly segregated. The building you are looking at is the last casino left on the street. It was operating 36 slot machines through the end of 2010. The city has shut it down for code violations, but the woman who owns the place is trying to re-open it.

It's a really tough neighborhood, so the probability of her re-opening is almost zero.

The "stage door" only has 46 slot machines and is behind the Flamingo

Quote: pacomartin

Jackson street was the historical entertainment district for black people in the 1950's when the city was rabidly segregated. The building you are looking at is the last casino left on the street. It was operating 36 slot machines through the end of 2010. The city has shut it down for code violations, but the woman who owns the place is trying to re-open it.

It's a really tough neighborhood, so the probability of her re-opening is almost zero.

The "stage door" only has 46 slot machines and is behind the Flamingo

Are you sure that is "Jackson Street"? It looks like the corner of E. Flamingo Rd. and Audrie St.

Quote: Doc

Are you sure that is "Jackson Street"? It looks like the corner of E. Flamingo Rd. and Audrie St.

No, Stage Door is near the strip. I was listing rather cheap slot joints that are more than 20 years old, so they don't have to comply with these new ordinances.

Dotty's opened it's first 5 locations on 1 March 1996, before the Monte Carlo and the Stratosphere opened. That's a long time to be operating before the county tells you that your business model is illegal, and you must institute radical changes.

Dotty's opened it's first 5 locations on 1 March 1996, before the Monte Carlo and the Stratosphere opened. That's a long time to be operating before the county your-competitor's-lawyers tell you that your business model is illegal, and you must institute radical changes.

Love the Stage Door!

Yeah, the suggestion that someone is trying to force them out but they are holding on must be a great marketing ploy for them.

Quote: FleaStiff

Yeah, the suggestion that someone is trying to force them out but they are holding on must be a great marketing ploy for them.

I think their sign is in reference to the somewhat-widely-held belief that Caesars Entertainment wants/plans to redevelop the entire block of the Flamingo/IP/Harrah's, from the strip back to Audrie (possibly to Koval), including the site of the former Bourbon Street and the current sites of Stage Door and Bill's. I don't know whether the Westin Casuarina property is part of that supposed plan or not.

Having a 20+ year lease seems to be an element of defiance against such a plan. I always assumed that it was an attempt to negotiate a substantial buyout price for the lease, but maybe the tactic is just to run them out of business so that they forfeit the lease.

That "somewhat-widely-held belief" is more than a 'belief'. That they were holding out / preventing Harrah's from expanding is EXACTLY what an employee there told me a few years back, when I walked in and asked about that intriguing marquee.

Personally, even if the Las Vegas gambling climate were different, I doubt that there would be a feasable way to use that property. It's in a rather small space between the monorail and the road.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

... I doubt that there would be a feasable way to use that property. It's in a rather small space between the monorail and the road.

To me, it only makes sense in two ways: (1) a small establishment like the current one, or (2) as part of a large development where that small lot might not be critically important in itself (part of a parking deck surrounding the monorail or a new gateway to your complex), but where you wouldn't want a slot joint detracting from the appearance of your grand plan. Just the kind of situation where you might choose to pay a substantial premium to buy out a lease or take steps that help run the small joint out of business.

Quote: Doc

To me, it only makes sense in two ways: (1) a small establishment like the current one, or (2) as part of a large development where that small lot might not be critically important in itself (part of a parking deck surrounding the monorail or a new gateway to your complex), but where you wouldn't want a slot joint detracting from the appearance of your grand plan. Just the kind of situation where you might choose to pay a substantial premium to buy out a lease or take steps that help run the small joint out of business.

The Stage Door is actually operating under a lease agreement with Battista's Hole in the Wall Italian Restaurant next door. The lease, which began in 1999 allows for ten 3 year options, but the owner of the Stage Door is the only one who can cancel the option. Hence the sign. The Harrah's corporation bought the land in 2005 when they bought the Imperial Palace. Since Ceasars has now publicly stated that their plan of tearing down profitable casinos to replace them with a City Center style resort has been abandoned, they don't seem bothered by this tiny property business with it's 46 slot machines operating on their land. If they get the financing to build their giant ferris wheel, and outdoor complex back there, the corporation will no doubt have to pay an exorbitant fee to get this guy to give up his contract. Negotiations will no doubt be helped by his defiant public legal argument. But if they signed the lease in 1999 and they have 3 year options that means that 12 year anniversary should be this year. Perhaps someone will try and break the lease to simply tear down the property.




Mold Sniffers and Strictly Iron operate out of small buildings behind Stage Door, but these locations are not designed to handle customers.

Failure to cancel an option to extend a lease is different than the action of exercising an option to extend the lease... I hope that guy reads carefully and acts promptly.

I guess this 46 slot machine "casino" that is really more a convenience store does indeed operate in the "shadow" of the well known casinos.

As a general recapitulation of this thread: I'd like thank those that are able to do precise research on these issues.

Some casinos are well known others probably have passerby who never particularly notice a Dottys or other storefront slot parlor. Some of these "shadow casinos" are real casinos, they are just small, out-of-the-way places that choose not to offer all that much beyond slots but maintain licenses allowing them to offer table games. Some are only authorized to offer slots or Video Poker but also are established businesses with substantial non-gambling operations such as sports bars with full kitchens and some are the Dotty-like places that are solely slot parlors under a licensing facade of being also a tavern.

The major point is that it seems all these places are quite profitable and that people who venture off the Las Vegas Strip encounter a great many gambling opportunities some of which are obviously quite attractive to them. Even with the new law it seems someone could indeed start a slot parlor but it would have to have a twelve-hour kitchen, twenty-five tables and a bar with bar-top machines. This would mean it would also have to be a non-smoking establishment.

Still "do-able" and I doubt that the declarations of lawyers about leaving Nevada are likely to be anything other than grist for the publicity mill.

According to my research Dotty's doubled the size of their operation from 34 to 68 locations during the recession (since Jan 2008). Also 5 Jackpot Joannie's opened in 2010.
I don't begrudge Clark county from zoning out future growth in this area, but I do think it was not right to make it retroactive.

Here are the licenses for this year. Hard Rock has changed ownership. The table does not specify which of these licenses is unrestricted, but all of them except the three obvious exceptions could be restricted (i.e. 15 slot machines or less).



Count's Vamp'd is a new bar next to Hash House a Go Go where the Wizard had his lunch.

11101-02	1-Jan-11	7-11 STORE #27438	LAS VEGAS
04371-04	1-Jan-11	EL SUPER	LAS VEGAS
31168-01	1-Jan-11	EL SUPER	NORTH LAS VEGAS
31167-01	1-Jan-11	GRAND SIERRA CASINO - RACE AND SPORT	RENO
13239-05	1-Jan-11	JOX SPORTS BAR & GRILL	RENO
03620-03	1-Jan-11	LAS VEGAS SUPERSTORE	LAS VEGAS
10189-07	1-Jan-11	REBEL MINI MART	LAS VEGAS
07516-05	3-Jan-11	GOLDEN MARKET #3	NORTH LAS VEGAS
30728-02	12-Jan-11	DEL SOL MARKET	LAS VEGAS
13996-03	13-Jan-11	WASH AND SHOP	LAS VEGAS
31315-01	27-Jan-11	REBEL #34	LAS VEGAS
10044-03	1-Feb-11	BI-RITE MARKET	SUN VALLEY
24944-02	1-Feb-11	DOTTY'S #68	LAS VEGAS
07796-05	1-Feb-11	INDIAN SPRINGSNGS GENERAL STORE II	INDIAN SPRINGS
03412-06	2-Feb-11	MARIANA'S SUPERMARKET #1	LAS VEGAS
31203-01	3-Feb-11	LOCO LIQUOR	LAS VEGAS
09336-04	4-Feb-11	BIG DOLLAR STORES	LAS VEGAS
30133-02	4-Feb-11	MARIA'S MARKET II	LAS VEGAS
00580-17	11-Feb-11	CAL NEVA LODGE CASINO	CRYSTAL BAY
04257-05	15-Feb-11	7-11 STORE #23673	SPARKS
04550-09	15-Feb-11	HOT SHOTS BAR & GAMING	LAS VEGAS
31174-01	17-Feb-11	COUNT'S VAMP'D	LAS VEGAS
03933-06	22-Feb-11	JAKE'S NEW RUTH CLUB	RUTH
23766-03	24-Feb-11	CARMINE'S ITALIAN KITCHEN	HENDERSON
01370-05	24-Feb-11	SPORTSMANS BAR	OVERTON
14587-03	25-Feb-11	WHISKEY DICK'S	NORTH LAS VEGAS
30257-02	1-Mar-11	AMIGO MARKET	NORTH LAS VEGAS
31130-01	1-Mar-11	BAR + BISTRO @ THE ARTS FACTORY	LAS VEGAS
27126-04	1-Mar-11	GIANT FOOD CENTER	LAS VEGAS
17586-08	2-Mar-11	HARD ROCK HOTEL & CASINO	LAS VEGAS
18783-02	5-Mar-11	CARSON NUGGET - RACE AND SPORTS BOOK	CARSON CITY
02205-06	8-Mar-11	ELKO RV PARK AT RYNDON	ELKO
01266-09	10-Mar-11	ALTURAS BAR AND NIGHTCLUB	RENO
30150-02	11-Mar-11	BJ'S COCKTAIL LOUNGE SOUTH	LAS VEGAS
31050-01	24-Mar-11	HOUSE OF VINO	LAS VEGAS
17873-05	24-Mar-11	NORTHSTAR BAR & GRILL	NORTH LAS VEGAS
04485-03	28-Mar-11	FALLON SPEEDWAY MARKET	FALLON
04377-05	1-Apr-11	7-11 STORE #25962	RENO
04898-02	1-Apr-11	7-11 STORE #29639	LAS VEGAS
10353-05	1-Apr-11	BOONIES	DYER
02152-09	1-Apr-11	CHAMPAGNES CAFE	LAS VEGAS
31144-01	1-Apr-11	DOTTY'S #67	NORTH LAS VEGAS
04352-13	1-Apr-11	FILTHY MCNASTY'S IRISH BAR	RENO
04338-08	1-Apr-11	GARAGE, THE	LAS VEGAS
29498-02	1-Apr-11	MARTINI, THE	LAS VEGAS
15091-05	1-Apr-11	MESQUITE PLAYOFF'S	MESQUITE
21577-02	1-Apr-11	PALM MARKET	LAS VEGAS
12986-06	1-Apr-11	WASH N FUN LAUNDROMAT	LAS VEGAS
09438-02	6-Apr-11	DOTTY'S #70	LAS VEGAS

For restricted licenses:
The fee for 5 slot machines is $2,870 per year or $574 per machine year
The fee for 15 slot machines is $11,010 per year or $734 per machine year

If your 15 machines make $100 / day then that is $547,500 per year. They could make back their license fees in a week.

While it is not unusual for a non-restricted location to make $100 per day for a slot machine, there is no published data for restricted licenses (because they do not pay a tax to the state).

=============
The break even point for 15 machines is $31.62 per day. Above that and you are getting a slight bargain for having a restricted license vs a non-restricted license.
But it's not really that much money. Dotty's would probably pay $1000 more per store month if they switch from restricted to non-restricted licenses.

Looking at the oldest licenses still operating for Las Vegas mailing address, you see that some small establishments go way back. Dino's and that 7-11 store are still operating as businesses, but they no longer have slot machines. They must think it is worthwhile to keep their licenses to increase the value of the property.

My understanding is that they bring a slot machine in for one day a year on a trolley, and collect a few dollars in revenue, and that allows them to keep their license.
=============

Loc-id	Start	Primary Location Name
00336-03	1-Jan-53	GOLDEN NUGGET
00329-01	7-Oct-55	GOLDEN GATE HOTEL & CASINO
00261-03	1-Jan-63	EL CORTEZ
00159-01	1-Jan-64	DINO'S
01297-02	16-Aug-66	CAESARS PALACE
02063-01	1-Apr-68	7-11 STORE #29659
00864-03	1-Jan-69	SAHARA SALOON & LIQUOR STORE, INC.
01934-01	26-Apr-71	CLUB PLATINUM
02612-01	11-Sep-72	LARRY'S VILLA
01423-01	1-Apr-73	FOUR QUEENS HOTEL & CASINO
00008-04	1-Jul-73	FLAMINGO LAS VEGAS/O'SHEAS
02689-01	2-Jul-73	HARRAH'S CASINO HOTEL LAS VEGAS
02733-01	1-Nov-73	MACAYO VEGAS #3
02680-01	8-Nov-73	LAS VEGAS AUTO/TRUCK PLAZA
01891-02	4-Dec-73	BALLY'S LAS VEGAS
02790-01	10-Apr-74	7-11 STORE #15815
02037-03	2-May-74	CIRCUS CIRCUS HOTEL & CASINO
02890-01	5-Nov-74	7-11 STORE #17256
02912-01	1-Jan-75	CALIFORNIA HOTEL AND CASINO
03149-02	1-Jul-76	PALACE STATION HOTEL & CASINO
03091-01	12-Aug-76	DISPENSARY
02504-01	1-Jul-77	FOUR KEGS, THE
01344-05	1-Jul-78	ARIZONA CHARLIE'S DECATUR
00106-07	2-Nov-78	SPORTSMAN'S BAIT & BAR
03274-02	22-Mar-79	SAM'S TOWN HOTEL & GAMBLING HALL
03301-02	1-Nov-79	RUM RUNNER

Count Vamps is a heavy metal rock bar and that location has been five different businesses in recent years.
The rock bar doesn't seem to even make mention of its gambling and I doubt anyone could hear a slot machine over the noise anyway.

Now as to Dotty and her competitors doing very well in hard times... that shows that cream skimming has advantages. I think that is one reason the lawyers who represent "real" casinos got up in arms about slot parlors. Too many places opening up that skim off the cream of slot players by offering a no-frills slot parlor. I'm surprised none of these places ever got named The Incidental Tavern. It would seem that some of the Powers That Be in Las Vegas must have taken a trip to Seattle and seen all the darned Latte vendors. Everybody in the whole darn town serves coffee. They just didn't want every Mom and Pop in Vegas to have slot machines and given the tax rate/ profit figures I don't see much reason why that would not have happened.

There is a firm in town that operates casinos solely to maintain licenses. It wheels in the same temporary slot machines and power cords, sets them up, brings players in for a day and knows all the regulations that help some "real" but presently inactive casino fulfill the requirements to keep its license. I think there used to be a firm that dealt with all the foreign chips casinos (and churches) used to take in. Same thing with all those dead card decks: collected by some firm, shipped to prisons, sorted by prisoners at 8 cents an hour or something, then shipped back to casino gift shops. Its all a specialty niche market.

Some place called MomAndPop's can be a chain and some place can be a Mom and Pop type place but rent out machines under some turnkey system from a slot maker or route salesman. It just seems that no matter what the name, atmosphere or legal requirements, there is a heck of a lot of gaming going on, far more than I ever expected.

According to this brochure, it seems strange that NGC licensed the Dotty's continually for 15 years. Once again, they were licensed, and I don't think the county should make zoning changes retroactive. The Gaming Commission is not going to change their procedures.

Quote: OBTAINING A RESTRICTED GAMING LICENSE IN NEVADA

One question from the brochure of Lewis and Roca law firm

When are slot machines incidental to the primary purpose of the business?
In determining whether the applicant’s proposed operation of slot machines is incidental to the primary business at a particular location, the Gaming Control Board (“Board”) and Gaming Commission (“Commission”) may consider a variety of factors. These include:
• the amount of floor space used for the slot machines as compared to the floor space used for the primary business;
• the amount of investment in the operation of the slot machines as compared to the amount of investment in the primary business;
• the amount of time required to manage or operate the slot machines as compared to the amount of time required to manage or operate the primary business;
• the revenue generated by the slot machines as compared to the revenue generated by the primary business;
• whether a substantial portion of the financing for the creation of the business has been provided in exchange for the right to operate slot machines on the premises; and
• other factors, including but not limited to the establishment’s name, the establishment’s marketing practices, the public’s perception of the business, and the relationship of the slot machines to the primary business.

In practice, obtaining a restricted license for locations other than for bars, taverns, saloons, restaurants with a separate bar area, liquor stores, grocery stores and drug stores typically poses a challenge. While you may occasionally find slot machines in other locations around the state such as laundromats, gas stations and donut shops, these locations likely were “grandfathered” in years before the adoption of the newer location suitability standards.

Bars, taverns, saloons, restaurants with a separate bar area, liquor stores, grocery stores and drug stores generally are suitable locations for a restricted license but the type of location may dictate the maximum number of devices allowed. Convenience stores and liquor stores are presumed suitable provided that no more than seven slot machines are operated at a convenience store, and no more than four slot machines are operated at any individual liquor store. Slot machines in grocery stores and drug stores also must be within a separate gaming area or alcove having not fewer than three sides formed by contiguous or partial walls.

Some types of facilities are unsuitable by either type or location. Fast food restaurants and brothels are typical examples of businesses often considered to be unsuitable for gaming operations. By regulation, the Board and Commission may deny an application for a state gaming license if the place or location is deemed unsuitable because it:

• is near a church, school or children’s public playground;
• is in a place where gaming is contrary to a valid zoning ordinance of any county or city;
• has a substantial clientele under 21 years old;
• lacks adequate supervision or surveillance; or
• is difficult to police

Quote: pacomartin

it seems strange that NGC licensed the Dotty's continually for 15 years. Once again, they were licensed, and I don't think the county should make zoning changes retroactive.

Even if its a non-conforming use, its still an existing business that was fully licensed and I don't agree with the retroactive changes of you must have a bar top and you must have bar top machines. I don't agree with a nearby church or school being allowed to have any impact either, but its a hopeless battle to say the church can conduct raffles, casino nights, and other gambling related events but can claim some zone of "high moral conduct" surrounds its premises.

Let us face it: they ARE slot parlors. We all know that. They are NOT taverns in the usual sense that a man-on-the-street would think "tavern". They are licensed as taverns but don't really serve much beer or wine. Its sort of the way that a bar might microwave a commercially prepared Philly Cheese Steak Sandwich for you, but its not what a chef calls a restaurant and its not even what the ordinary passerby would call a restaurant.

It was once a risky business model. Then it became a successful formula. And that made it even riskier.
When Dotty first opened her "taverns" risk was a marketing risk. Would the public even show up much less pay?
Later Dotty faced the wrath of established casinos who hired lawyers and lobbyists. That is when Dotty faced real risks. And lost.

(Yeah, I know... ain't no Dotty. Also that cute Asian chick on the blackjack screen ain't never gonna have dinner with me).

Quote: FleaStiff

When Dotty first opened her "taverns" risk was a marketing risk. Would the public even show up much less pay?
Later Dotty faced the wrath of established casinos who hired lawyers and lobbyists. That is when Dotty faced real risks. And lost.

That's what the commissioner said in 1996 at their first meeting. Carl Estey had a similar chain in Oregon, but there were no casinos in Oregon at the time. It does seem as if there success in the last few years scared people. The opening of five "Jackpot Joanie's" in 6 months didn't help either.

It does not look like they changed their business model since 1996. They are not hazardous to the community. The clients seem to be mostly older people, unlike the five machines in the back of the convenience store.

>It does seem as if their success in the last few years scared people.
>The opening of five "Jackpot Joanie's" in 6 months didn't help either.
Yeah, the "real casinos" got worried about Dotty and the Dotty LookALikes.

>They are not hazardous to the community.
Of course they are not hazardous to the community, they are hazardous to the casinos that hired the lawyers and lobbyists.

>The clients seem to be mostly older people, unlike the five machines in the back of the convenience store.
Yeah, older people who largely keep to themselves, stay fairly quiet and just play slots from a very comfortable chair and away from the hub-bub of a locals casino.

I think this whole thread on Shadow Casinos has exposed the fact that far more gambling goes on in Vegas then ever imagined.
I wonder if locals ever get in the situation some civilians to on remote isles. After their five year contract is up, the civilians look at their bar tab and their empty savings account, know they have no money to come up and arrive broke, so they re-up for another five years. Too broke to go home? Is it the same at Dottys? Or simply that "they are already home". Or they have nothing else to go to but Dottys?

.....

Are the Nevada's gambling regulations anti-competitive to any real small business competition? That's my impression.

Quote: rxwine

Are the Nevada's gambling regulations anti-competitive to any real small business competition? That's my impression.

I don't think that most states are interested in small business competition. New Jersey is charged with not letting one company have more than 50% of the business. While Harrah's now has 44.3%, I doubt that they will be forced to sell a casino if some of the other properties close and leave them with more than 50%.

Pennsylvania showed almost no interest in having small business participate.

The Nevada Clean Indoor Act (NCIA) provided for substantial changes to Nevada smoking laws and protects children and adults from secondhand smoke in most public places and indoor places of employment. The Act took effect on December 8, 2006. Bars are required to be smoke-free if they serve food or have a kitchen and hold a food handling license. Bars that serve prepackaged food, like peanuts and pretzels, and don’t hold a food handling license, can still allow smoking on their premises

In their first 10 years of operation, Dotty opened 15 locations in Southern Nevada ans 10 locations in Northern Nevada. As the NCIA was being debated early 2006 and during the recession the Dotty business model became more attractive. Dotties opened over 40 new locations in the last 5 years and grew to over 500 employees. Their principal competitive advantage seemed to be that it was a hassle free place to smoke.

The Nevada Gaming Commission did not rescind their gambling licenses, but it was actually Clark County that changed their zoning requirements. As I said earlier, I think that the County can change requirements, it is the retroactive 20 years that bothers me. Plus it is so specific to apply to basically 2 companies.

===========================
The tiny town of Gerlach (pop 500) over 100 miles north of Reno has this license called Bruno's Country Club which has been active for 58 years. It's the third oldest active license in the state. The big tourist event is the Burning Man celebration in the desert every year. They have 13 slots (including one for $100) and a single blackjack table. It isn't the Middle of Nowhere, but you can see the Middle of Nowhere from there.

I do think that Nevada should be giving small licenses to places like this, and not hundreds of them to grocery stores, 7-11's, convenience store chains, drug stores, and gas stations. Gambling is addictive. It doesn't need to be everywhere. You should at least have to make a conscious choice to go someplace to gamble.

I would agree that there should, particularly in large urban areas, be an ability to lead a normal life without being bombarded by gambling. Bars, grocery stores, convenience stores, gas stations, barber shops, ... you should be able to lead a life free of going to the grocery store for a quart of milk and finding out you spent too many quarters on the way in.

Smoking is a devisive issue and I see no need to rehash it here particularly since I don't smoke.

I could see some small town where there was only one bar and it is also a casino of some sort. That could be bad for some residents but a road house of some sort often needs to have some "draw" to get the few passing vehicles to stop.

Quote: FleaStiff

Smoking is a devisive issue and I see no need to rehash it here particularly since I don't smoke.

I could see some small town where there was only one bar and it is also a casino of some sort. That could be bad for some residents but a road house of some sort often needs to have some "draw" to get the few passing vehicles to stop.

I don't smoke either. But I like the idea of a small place where they can go to smoke in peace. It is legal.

Although 7-11's started getting licensed as far back as the late 1960's, it seems as if there was big change in the late 80's. It went from an rare thing to sometimes two dozen places in a chain getting licensed in one day. Also they changed the licensing inside the city limits to allow more neighborhood casinos. Prior to 1989 it was pretty much outside of the city limits like Sam's Town.

For the last few years it's been roughly 140-180 per year.

Quote: pacomartin

I don't smoke either. But I like the idea of a small place where they can go to smoke in peace. It is legal.

That "It Is Legal" reminds me of a woman I once knew who every time she wanted to go shopping on Rodeo Drive in Beverly Hills her Boyfriend-then-Fiance-then-Husband would always immediately say "yes, lets" but then would dawdle around until the stores were closed and only window shopping was possible.

Yes, smoking is legal ... but only if ... .

>Although 7-11's started getting licensed as far back as the late 1960's, it seems as if there was big change in the late 80's.
It became more intensive a sideline than selling milk and beer. Perhaps there were more loungers around or perhaps simply the licensing fees were too low to be a brake on proliferation. Someone at headquarters made a decision. The local franchisee didn't.

Sam's Town? A real gem. Runs shuttles because it has to run shuttles. Can't survive on the RV trade, thats for sure.

.....

Quote: gofaster87

I could never understand the lure of Sam's Town. A lot of VP players love that place. It has few good poker machines but the place is too overcrowded with penny and nickel players. A lot of shady people on Boulder.

I've been there once. The Hoover Dam tour I took included a buffet lunch there. I can see the amenities are a lure. If you're a local and want to spend the day gambling, that's as good a palce as any, especially if you're a low roller. There are plenty of cheap places to eat, including the buffet (which wasn't bad, and has a pretty good selection), and movie theaters and bowling if you want to do something else later, or need to park the kids somewhere for a few hours. I've no idea what the traffic is like coming and going, but it should be less than what you find on the Strip and Downtown.

At the time I took no special notice of VP tables, but according to VPFree, they do have some decent games, including full pay DW which is rather rare. And they offer, as I recall, 20X odds on craps.

Quote: Nareed

I can see the amenities are a lure. If you're a local that's as good a place as any, especially if you're a low roller.
plenty of cheap places to eat, including the buffet, movies and bowling.
they do have some decent games, including full pay DW which is rather rare. And they offer 20X odds on craps.

I'd say that they do the low roller particularly well. The food is cheap but good. The VP games are good and they have an explicit statement posted about the payout rates, perfect play and knowledge etc. When SouthPoint has 2x they have 20x. That of an in itself shows the difference. The interior park is nice. It ain't no Bellagio Gardens, but its nice. They get low rollers but they offer those low rollers a really good deal. They are off in nowheresville, but that is where the land was cheap and people were spending their money. They don't pretend to be The Venetian or to get the crowd the Venetian gets or the action the Venetian gets. They offer a real good deal for the money.

The brand new Eastside Cannery built next door failed to out-earn Sam's Town.

Quote: pacomartin

The brand new Eastside Cannery built next door failed to out-earn Sam's Town.

Its newer, probably has better parking, etc. Don't know if it "should" have out-earned anyone next door or not. They book Latin entertainment and seem to have a Latin oriented tweeting program. Perhaps they aimed at a market segment that enjoys the music and the beer but doesn't gamble enough.

It could be that they aim at a smaller gambling crowd. They have somewhat smaller casino with less than half the number of tables than their competition. The other locations all have movie theaters. It was certainly a much nicer looking building and club.

EASTSIDE CANNERY CASINO & HOTEL (23-Sep-2006 license) (28-Aug-2008 re-open)
"TOTAL SLOTS ",1922
"TOTAL GAMES ",16
"TOTAL TABLES ",4

SAM'S TOWN HOTEL & GAMBLING HALL 22-Mar-1979
"TOTAL SLOTS ",2300
"TOTAL GAMES ",37
"TOTAL TABLES ",11

BOULDER STATION HOTEL & CASINO 23-Aug-1994
"TOTAL SLOTS ",2770
"TOTAL GAMES ",38
"TOTAL TABLES ",11

SUNSET STATION HOTEL & CASINO 10-Jun-1997
"TOTAL SLOTS ",2463
"TOTAL GAMES ",47
"TOTAL TABLES ",8

.....

Quote: gofaster87

I k now a lot of VP players stopped going to East Cannery. They have consistently been downgrading the poker there. Ive tried the place a few times, its nice, but I get a weird vibe there.

Well, I don't think there is any to quantify "weird vibe" but something must be wrong if it affects Video Poker players and live poker players. Either they are being too cheap and get nothing but fleas or they are aiming for a market segment that simply doesn't have the money or the desire to play there.

Quote: pacomartin

That's what the commissioner said in 1996 at their first meeting. Carl Estey had a similar chain in Oregon, but there were no casinos in Oregon at the time. It does seem as if their success in the last few years scared people. The opening of five "Jackpot Joanie's" in 6 months didn't help either.
It does not look like they changed their business model since 1996. They are not hazardous to the community. The clients seem to be mostly older people, unlike the five machines in the back of the convenience store.

May 20th: the commission voted 3-2 to refer a license application for a new Jackpot Joanie’s tavern back to the state’s regulatory staff.

It seems that not just Dotty is on the skids but also all the "Dotty Wannabees" such as Jackpot Joanie's slot arcades.

Dotty has of course filed suit recently to overturn the ordinance change that was so tailored to fit her and Joanie has also filed suit as well: (Las Vegas Sun):
"...A second chain of Dotty's-like neighborhood gambling establishments is suing over an ordinance aimed at requiring them to operate more like traditional gaming taverns.

The moves against the Dotty's business model, supported by big casinos and traditional taverns are aimed at requiring the mini-casino businesses to operate in a manner in which gaming is clearly incidental to food and drink operations.

"The purpose of this ordinance is to unreasonably interfere with Jackpot Joanie's business and destroy its profits, causing Jackpot Joanie's to suffer irreparable harm," said O'Reilly Law Group in Las Vegas.

Jackpot Joanie's says it's licensed as a tavern, even though like Dotty's its slot machines are not embedded in a bar and instead are freestanding and arranged in groupings "that are more appealing to Joanie's customer base".

"Jackpot Joanie's business plan appeals to patrons who like the convenience of a local, smaller tavern that has a clean, safe, bright light environment."

"Unfortunately, the tavern business model used by Jackpot Joanie's and some of its competitors has now been mischaracterized as a 'slot parlor' or 'slot arcade' and not a 'traditional' tavern, where gaming clearly is incidental to another, primary business conducted at the location, such as a restaurant," the lawsuit says.

The lawsuit complains that prior to enacting the ordinance, county staff prepared a "grossly inadequate" business impact statement and that affected businesses couldn't properly advise the county on its impacts because of a scattershot approach in which four competing proposals were being considered.

"Thus when the hearing on the (ordinance) amendments was finally convened, in direct contraventions of (Nevada law), the board (of commissioners) lacked the real and necessary information on the impact of the amendments on the businesses that the ultimate ordinance would affect," the lawsuit says.

It complains that on the eve of the April 5 hearing on the ordinance, certain members of the commission met secretly with the Nevada Resort Association and the Tavern Owners Association at the commission office "and struck a private deal to support and propose only a single version of the bill" -- and that Jackpot Joanie's was not a party to this alleged deal.

The amendment calls for taverns, even most of those currently licensed, to have a traditional bar-top structure with at least eight of their 15 slot machines embedded in the bar.

" There is no legitimate governmental purpose for requiring a tavern to contain the physical structure of a bar in which machines can be embedded when the county's definition of a tavern specifically includes a lounge without a bar. There is no legitimate governmental purpose for requiring a tavern to have eight of its slot machines embedded in a bar." "The process in which this ordinance was proposed, considered, noticed to the public and passed failed to provide a meaningful opportunity to be heard at a meaningful time and were fundamentally unfair and violated the due process requirements.

Quote: FleaStiff

" There is no legitimate governmental purpose for requiring a tavern to contain the physical structure of a bar in which machines can be embedded when the county's definition of a tavern specifically includes a lounge without a bar.

Hopefully, they can at least overturn the grandfather clause from 20 years to only future operations.

Just came across this older link in a Portland, Oregon publication discussing locating Dotty-like slot parlors in adjacent units of a strip mall so as to escape the lottery limits of six machines. The article also discussed the lottery's focus on a merchants revenue, not profits, and the consequent loss-leaders that are offered so the lottery ticket retailers show revenue but not profits from non-gambling sources.

link here.

Quote: The Gresham Outlook, Dec 22, 2010

EDITORIAL
Oregon Lottery should take action on ‘casino row’

The Oregon Constitution prohibits nontribal casinos — a ban that voters reaffirmed when they overwhelmingly rejected a proposal in November for a Wood Village mega-casino. But most citizens don’t realize that the Oregon Lottery already tolerates the functional equivalent of a small casino at Jantzen Beach, and that such operations have the potential to spread throughout the state. As reported in the Portland Tribune in the past two weeks, a dozen Lottery vendors have formed a quasi-casino at a Jantzen Beach strip mall, with all of them sharing the same parking lot and some sharing the same ownership and even the same bathrooms.

Such a hotbed of gambling operations, with a total of 72 Lottery machines, ought to be outlawed as a casino under Oregon regulations. But Lottery administrators say they see nothing wrong with this lottery row. We do, however, see something wrong, and it’s not just the abundance of gambling devices. The Lottery is encouraging all kinds of addictions through the Jantzen Beach operations.
...

I think it worked, because if you look at it on google maps you see other businesses going in. But they should know better. Even in Vegas you see groups of local casinos gathering together in convenient spots.

The Dotty and Dotty-clones debate continues.
The Nevada Gaming Commission appears to have tabled the various three versions of the proposed rules concerning these Dotty and Dotty-like slot parlors that claim to be "taverns" with various "incidental income" sources.

Will probably be addressed in August meeting.

I find it particularly interesting that two of the three proposals are from the lawyers/lobbyists for Stations casinos.

Quote: FleaStiff

The Dotty and Dotty-clones debate continues.

Dotty will personally attend each of three grand openings at her new slot machine arcades that were licensed recently by the Gaming Commission.

• Dotty's for three more slot machine arcades, raising its number to 78. The new ones in Las Vegas are at 3377 Rancho Drive and 1511 N. Nellis Blvd. The other is at South Lake Tahoe.

Anybody out there what got the skinny on Kurt Weisner's Big Dog Brewery what was at that Nellis address? Is it a Strip Mall?

Although only a short distance from the Kings Beach Nudist Colony about thirty five miles away, Dotty has declared that everyone entering her South Lake Tahoe establishment must remain properly attired while playing slot machines.

Recent comments in the chip collectors threads have made me start thinking about Shadow Casinos again.

The very small casinos often lacking a hotel and certainly lacking any of the hoopla that might be termed "nightlife" or "clubs" seem to be a separate category on a continuum.

They are more than just the Dotty Slot Parlors that offer slot machines, coffee and crackers since clearly they are "real" casinos in that they also offer table games and real bars and sometimes real restaurants. The table games may be poorly attended at times and may be more common on weekends but they exist. These places appear to often be family owned but seem quite profitable.

Consider the North Las Vegas casino that was originally a bar with six machines and simply grew... it grew out of profits remember!

Places like Henderson seem to have small casinos that are not particularly oriented to growth but sure are money makers never the less.

Quote: FleaStiff

If we were to add up all the Beer-and-Burger joints generally aimed at local yuppies, all the Dotty's which I believe are generally aimed at slot-addicts, all the substantial alcoves in supermarkets... just how much non-tourist gambling is going on?
Just how much gambling is really going on at the virtually invisible casinos?

Las Vegas Supermarkets to all get re-vamped slot parlors featuring more current games, comfortable and more-private seating. In other words: Stations Casinos used the law to tackle Dottys, but now major supermarkets are soon to be offering Dotty-like Clones of comfortable chairs, new games and a no-frills players club. Lets see who can hire more lawyers and lobbyists now!!



From Vegasinc dot com Feb 13th:

Revamped grocery store casinos offer new games, new promotions

Grocery store gambling is undergoing a major overhaul in the Las Vegas Valley as Golden Gaming prepares to upgrade 10 gaming parlors this year and plans to revamp 70 more locations.

Golden Gaming operates more than 2,000 slot machines grocery stores statewide. Golden Gaming also is the largest bar owner in the state. It owns more than 40 PT’s and Sierra Gold taverns.

Besides the relative solitude, players say they also enjoy the smoke-free environment. While company officials initially worried the smoking ban would hurt business it actually has helped. There aren’t many smoke-free casinos for players.

Golden Gaming also added for the first time a players’ rewards card that links all the grocery store casinos.

Although jocularly made, the concept of Slot Machines at Urgent Care Centers and Day Care Centers is indeed up for discussion. I think most people have to go grocery shopping, the unlucky may have to go to an Urgent Care Center but just about all parents wind up going to a Day Care Center. Pick up, Drop off, enroll, dis-enroll, ... a very frazzled and desperate clientele might make a good market for some one armed bandits. Would those darned Gaming Board types object to a skill based fuzzy toy machine being next to a real slot machine so parent and child could each participate?

There is gambling for Yuppies at all these McApplebees places in Vegas... booze, food and upholstered chairs.
Why not gambling for Parents with Toddlers who go to day care... early, late...whatever.

And heck if a portion of the Urgent Care takings are cut back to the owner of the urgent care center, who would complain?