Shadow casinos
September 24th, 2010 at 9:48:56 AM
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Everyone knows that there are various geographical groupings of "Vegas Casinos".
There is Downtown, there is The Strip and then there is this lesser strip known as The Boulder Strip. Sometimes the term Locals Casinos is used to encompass a broader geographical area but still reflect what are viewed as "lesser casinos".
There are of course a heck of lot more slot machines elsewhere, including gas stations, convenience stores, barber shops, etc. And there are some "casinos" that are really slot parlors with minimal table games to maintain their licenses.
What I'd like to get a grasp on is:
If we were to add up all the Beer-and-Burger joints generally aimed at local yuppies, all the Dotty's which I believe are generally aimed at slot-addicts (all day, every day for some), all the substantial alcoves in supermarkets... just how much non-tourist gambling is going on?
Dottys is VERY secretive but I have a sense that they are extremely profitable and are doing even better recently particularly in their various Non-Smoking Dottys. As the recession took hold, travel costs go up for the economically disadvantaged and I think traffic must have soared at places like Dottys. Traffic probably soared at the various Beer-and-Burger joints that offer plush chairs, a more social place for singles and small groups too.
If we lumped all these places into TWO "shadow" casinos, just how much money are we talking about.
Shadow Casino One: The Dottys-like places: Slot machines galore, nice chairs, some snacks, but not much else.
Shadow Casino Two: The more Yuppie oriented places that provide Booze and Yuppie Menus with Video Poker all over the place. Sports Bars type places. Microbrew type places.
Just how much gambling is really going on at the virtually invisible casinos?
There is Downtown, there is The Strip and then there is this lesser strip known as The Boulder Strip. Sometimes the term Locals Casinos is used to encompass a broader geographical area but still reflect what are viewed as "lesser casinos".
There are of course a heck of lot more slot machines elsewhere, including gas stations, convenience stores, barber shops, etc. And there are some "casinos" that are really slot parlors with minimal table games to maintain their licenses.
What I'd like to get a grasp on is:
If we were to add up all the Beer-and-Burger joints generally aimed at local yuppies, all the Dotty's which I believe are generally aimed at slot-addicts (all day, every day for some), all the substantial alcoves in supermarkets... just how much non-tourist gambling is going on?
Dottys is VERY secretive but I have a sense that they are extremely profitable and are doing even better recently particularly in their various Non-Smoking Dottys. As the recession took hold, travel costs go up for the economically disadvantaged and I think traffic must have soared at places like Dottys. Traffic probably soared at the various Beer-and-Burger joints that offer plush chairs, a more social place for singles and small groups too.
If we lumped all these places into TWO "shadow" casinos, just how much money are we talking about.
Shadow Casino One: The Dottys-like places: Slot machines galore, nice chairs, some snacks, but not much else.
Shadow Casino Two: The more Yuppie oriented places that provide Booze and Yuppie Menus with Video Poker all over the place. Sports Bars type places. Microbrew type places.
Just how much gambling is really going on at the virtually invisible casinos?
September 24th, 2010 at 10:04:46 AM
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It has to be a lot - I'd venture to say maybe the local-type places earn more than downtown Vegas does? Or would the Freemont Street casinos count as "locals" casinos?
The only real experience I had with these types of casinos was at McCarran International; I was blowing some time before my flight out and I think I actually came out ahead like $10, which apparently is more than most people do at those super-tight slots.
Also, I don't live in Vegas, so I'd never heard of the Dotty's places you mentioned, so I looked 'em up.
Assuming the website above is correct, these places sound terrible! No food comps, points accrued get RESET each month and if below 5,000 don't get you anything, no real management to voice complaints to... why would anyone bother to go?!
The only real experience I had with these types of casinos was at McCarran International; I was blowing some time before my flight out and I think I actually came out ahead like $10, which apparently is more than most people do at those super-tight slots.
Also, I don't live in Vegas, so I'd never heard of the Dotty's places you mentioned, so I looked 'em up.
Assuming the website above is correct, these places sound terrible! No food comps, points accrued get RESET each month and if below 5,000 don't get you anything, no real management to voice complaints to... why would anyone bother to go?!
September 24th, 2010 at 10:29:30 AM
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Those casinos aren't exactly "invisible". Dotty's for example, has a nice big sign out front.
Just about anyplace that serves liquor also has a restricted gaming license. There are hundreds of such places in the Vegas valley. Many people like to gamble there, rather than the casinos, because the atmosphere is more relaxed. Also, they usually serve really good, inexpensive food.
I would imagine that the only data that seperates out these places from "casino" casinos is revenue by class of gaming license.
Just about anyplace that serves liquor also has a restricted gaming license. There are hundreds of such places in the Vegas valley. Many people like to gamble there, rather than the casinos, because the atmosphere is more relaxed. Also, they usually serve really good, inexpensive food.
I would imagine that the only data that seperates out these places from "casino" casinos is revenue by class of gaming license.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
September 24th, 2010 at 11:03:11 AM
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Here's where to start:
http://gaming.nv.gov/publications.htm
I'm not sure if restricted locations have the same reporting requirements as the non-restricted (typical casino) locations though.
http://gaming.nv.gov/publications.htm
I'm not sure if restricted locations have the same reporting requirements as the non-restricted (typical casino) locations though.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
September 24th, 2010 at 11:04:16 AM
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THe NGC is not allowed to report data in such detail that you get an insight into a single casino finances. Only Nevada has this law, since other states usually report in detail the revenue for every casino.
As such, for gaming revenue they usually have a lot of divisions. For Clark County divisions include Boulder Strip, North Las Vegas, Downtown (includes Stratosphere), The Strip, Laughlin, Mesquite and the Balance of the county.
For non-gaming revenue the two smaller regions: (1) North Las Vegas and (2) Mesquite are combined with the "Balance of the County".
Although the term "locals casino" is widely used, to estimate the value of this market then (1) The Strip, (2) Downtown, (3)Laughlin, and (4) Mesquite are considered primarily tourist regions and the rest of the county is considered "locals market". It is not a clear divisions as the "locals market" still contains roughly 14,000 hotel rooms and includes casinos like Rampart Casino, Red Rock, Green Valley, and the 3 Primm properties.
Many of the divisions are arbitrary. Boyd Gold Coast and Palace Station are considered "the strip", while Boyd Orleans Casino is considered local. But Orleans casino is only one block further west. The Gaming Comission makes a decision when the places are built, and they very rarely re-categorize a casino (and then it is a small casino).
The "locals market" is $2,083,762,000 in gambling as of the 12 months leading to June 2010. There is a chart showing the change over the last few years at Applied Analysis Resort Industry Observor . Since roughly 2 million people live in Clark county, that would mean that 2 billion dollars is about $1000 for every man woman and child (per year). I know that people don't gamble that much so some portion of this "locals market" must include tourists or people visiting locals (who often stay in the small hotels).
Dotty's seems to be very successful with over 60 locations in Nevada. Usually they are either 15 slot machines, or 35 slot machines (two different types of licenses). They have 6/9 video poker (for $2 minimum) and additional bonuses for late night or for people over age 50 during the day. You get cheap drinks and the chairs are big and relaxing lounge chairs. Decorations look like they are done by your maiden aunt (Dotty is not a real person). Mostly I think that they are places for people to smoke who can't smoke in their own homes because of relatives. I think they give a good game to people who have the money to gamble.
Please shoot me if you see me in a Dotty's.
As such, for gaming revenue they usually have a lot of divisions. For Clark County divisions include Boulder Strip, North Las Vegas, Downtown (includes Stratosphere), The Strip, Laughlin, Mesquite and the Balance of the county.
For non-gaming revenue the two smaller regions: (1) North Las Vegas and (2) Mesquite are combined with the "Balance of the County".
Although the term "locals casino" is widely used, to estimate the value of this market then (1) The Strip, (2) Downtown, (3)Laughlin, and (4) Mesquite are considered primarily tourist regions and the rest of the county is considered "locals market". It is not a clear divisions as the "locals market" still contains roughly 14,000 hotel rooms and includes casinos like Rampart Casino, Red Rock, Green Valley, and the 3 Primm properties.
Many of the divisions are arbitrary. Boyd Gold Coast and Palace Station are considered "the strip", while Boyd Orleans Casino is considered local. But Orleans casino is only one block further west. The Gaming Comission makes a decision when the places are built, and they very rarely re-categorize a casino (and then it is a small casino).
The "locals market" is $2,083,762,000 in gambling as of the 12 months leading to June 2010. There is a chart showing the change over the last few years at Applied Analysis Resort Industry Observor . Since roughly 2 million people live in Clark county, that would mean that 2 billion dollars is about $1000 for every man woman and child (per year). I know that people don't gamble that much so some portion of this "locals market" must include tourists or people visiting locals (who often stay in the small hotels).
Dotty's seems to be very successful with over 60 locations in Nevada. Usually they are either 15 slot machines, or 35 slot machines (two different types of licenses). They have 6/9 video poker (for $2 minimum) and additional bonuses for late night or for people over age 50 during the day. You get cheap drinks and the chairs are big and relaxing lounge chairs. Decorations look like they are done by your maiden aunt (Dotty is not a real person). Mostly I think that they are places for people to smoke who can't smoke in their own homes because of relatives. I think they give a good game to people who have the money to gamble.
Please shoot me if you see me in a Dotty's.
September 24th, 2010 at 12:23:26 PM
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The website that you consulted is a bit out of date. There are many more Dottys now. The company uses a different name for its casinos in Oregon and the Dakotas. They now have a one-page, utterly non informative website.Quote: ElectricDreamsAssuming the website above is correct, these places sound terrible! ... why would anyone bother to go?!
The "draw" for a Dotty's seems to be geographic: walk, bus ride, etc. Some are in Kmart or similar shopping centers. I've heard that very, very occasionally a good customer gets a twenty dollar bill handed to them out of the till.
I've also heard that these places are profitable to the max. Retirees park themselves there: nice chair, air conditioned, no blaring music, no rowdy yuppies. Most are smoking, some are non-smoking. For one woman, the only real "draw" for her is that its 250 feet from her front door whereas The Sahara is a short drive away and she has to get "dressed up" for The Sahara.
There are some casinos that are a step up from Dottys but still remain mainly slot parlors with a pot of coffee and a microwaved pizza available. Occasionally a promotion for a trip to Hawaii or something. Game variety is often ultra-high, machines and floor are spotless, front door often locked at night.
Aztec, which is near the base of the Stratosphere, has slots, sodas, cigarettes, internet kiosks and coffee. Thats it. Yet it seems very profitable since some of their bookkeeping was exposed, I think, in a disciplinary action a few years ago.
September 24th, 2010 at 1:18:40 PM
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Another estimate of the shadow casino revenue is that
105 casinos in the state have rooms and gaming revenue of more than $1 million per month: total $9.7 billion in FY2009
155 casino in the state have less than $1 million per month but more than $1 million per year : total $826.6 million gaming revenue in FY2009
There are over 3000 limited licenses (15 slot machines max) and about 100 casinos with full licenses but gaming revenue less than $1 million per year
105 casinos in the state have rooms and gaming revenue of more than $1 million per month: total $9.7 billion in FY2009
155 casino in the state have less than $1 million per month but more than $1 million per year : total $826.6 million gaming revenue in FY2009
There are over 3000 limited licenses (15 slot machines max) and about 100 casinos with full licenses but gaming revenue less than $1 million per year
September 24th, 2010 at 1:51:25 PM
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Sure. Unless you are there to buy it. I've no real idea why people play slots in the first place much less why they would do it in a dump.Quote: pacomartin
Please shoot me if you see me in a Dotty's.
September 24th, 2010 at 2:51:54 PM
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Many of the smaller joints are serviced by a larger entity (Terrible's comes to mind), that puts them into one of their "routes". This cuts into the profit, since the handle is shared, but apparently lowers the up front costs to the business. So the aggregate numbers may be deceptive since they are actaully divided between multiple parties.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
September 26th, 2010 at 8:37:33 AM
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I can't find the link anymore, but I once saw a hilarious review of Dotty's online.
It was your typical "lets go slumming, and post it to our blog" thing.
The guy actually really liked it, because of the chairs and the games. He said they were the most comfortable chairs he had ever sat in. They looked like really high-end office chairs.
And found some video poker variation that he didn't know existed. I think it was a 50 or 100 play machine with 9/6 Jacks or Better.
It was your typical "lets go slumming, and post it to our blog" thing.
The guy actually really liked it, because of the chairs and the games. He said they were the most comfortable chairs he had ever sat in. They looked like really high-end office chairs.
And found some video poker variation that he didn't know existed. I think it was a 50 or 100 play machine with 9/6 Jacks or Better.
September 26th, 2010 at 10:22:05 AM
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Quote: dudestupidI can't find the link anymore, but I once saw a hilarious review of Dotty's online.
It was your typical "lets go slumming, and post it to our blog" thing.
Here is a blog, but it's not very funny.
Quote: Oregononline
Published: Tuesday, January 02, 2007
Steve Duin, The Oregonian
The Dotty's Deli franchise will apparently survive in Oregon, but not under the ownership of R. Craig Estey.
As I noted in a Dec. 17 column, Oregon State Lottery Director Dale Penn informed Estey on Dec. 13 that he had violated his retailer contract, which requires "key" operators to maintain a semblance of honesty and integrity. Estey, the sole owner of the 26 Dotty's casinos, apparently crossed the line when he held a handgun to the head of his estranged wife in August 2005, then lied about the incident to gambling regulators in Nevada.
Yes, even in Nevada, threatening your wife with a .38 violates the casino owners' canon.
After Penn terminated the franchise's contract with the Lottery, effective Dec. 27, Estey's lawyer in Oregon, Jeff Chicoine, asked if the Lottery would reconsider its decision if Estey sold the 26 gambling arcades. Penn told me Monday afternoon that the Lottery has given Estey 60 days to find a new owner, who will have to apply for a new contract.
Estey must divorce himself completely from the operation, Penn said: "Obviously, we do not want to have some shadow corporation involved. In any application for a contract that will come out of that sale, we'll be looking at that." During that 60-day reconsideration period, Penn added, Estey must surrender day-to-day control of the operation.
When the smoke clears, in other words, someone will continue to profit off these lucrative video-poker parlors, but it won't be gun-totin' Craig Estey.
http://blog.oregonlive.com/steveduin/2007/01/dottys_yes_estey_no.html
September 26th, 2010 at 1:54:21 PM
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So it has the look and feel of home, plus you can smoke. Maybe thats it. I've heard a number of slot-addicts jokingly refer to their favorite casino as "their home away from home". Maybe the "real" casinos should investigate this expensive office chair and maiden aunt stuff.Quote: pacomartinYou get cheap drinks and the chairs are big and relaxing lounge chairs. Decorations look like they are done by your maiden aunt. Mostly I think that they are places for people to smoke who can't smoke in their own homes because of relatives.
September 26th, 2010 at 2:01:43 PM
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Quote: FleaStiffSo it has the look and feel of home, plus you can smoke. Maybe that it. I've heard a number of slot-addicts joking refer to their favorite casino as "their home away from home". Maybe the "real" casinos should investigate this expensive office chair and maiden aunt stuff.
The ways that the locals' casinos set up their gaming areas and ambiances vs. the ways the Strip megatoilets do has everything to do with the differing natures of their clienteles. Locals are frequent gamblers, and as such, want their gambling to be low-cost. They also want to feel more welcomed than they would in a huge, impersonal casino. So their objectives are different from the blow-into-town-on-Southwest, stay-up-for-48-hours-then-collapse tourist.
I do wonder why so many of the megatoilets have uncomfortable chairs at their slot machines. It seems like such an easy and relatively inexpensive thing to do, that would keep people gambling longer, to install comfy chairs. I wouldn't be surprised if some turistas made their decisions on where to gamble based largely on chair comfort.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
September 26th, 2010 at 2:06:58 PM
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Quote: mkl654321
I do wonder why so many of the megatoilets have uncomfortable chairs at their slot machines. It seems like such an easy and relatively inexpensive thing to do, that would keep people gambling longer, to install comfy chairs. I wouldn't be surprised if some turistas made their decisions on where to gamble based largely on chair comfort.
I've noticed chairs are getting better in some of the newer casinos. Last year one opened near me and they have expensive office chairs at all the table games and slots. You can even adjust the height of the seat with a lever. Very comfortable.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
September 26th, 2010 at 2:36:27 PM
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More on Estey's former Oregon operations:
"...Richard Craig Estey's 26 mini-casinos generated $6 million in retailer commissions.
Estey was forced to sell for $15 million. Retailer commissions have been reduced from the overtly grotesque 32 percent to the overly generous 23 percent, leaving us with what Steve Novick calls "Oregon's permanent bail-out.
"we're not supposed to have casinos. If the only reason a place is in business is because it's propped up by lottery subsidies, then it's no longer a functioning tavern, it's a casino."
This is from an OregonLive comment on a 900,000 dollar restaurant, bowling alley and lottery retailer fighting the Lottery Commission and blaming the smoking ban for losing its customers to a nearby smoking establishment, an Indian casino. I don't know if the Indian casino was behind the Commissions attempt to yank the retailer's right to sell lottery tickets so as to get the remainder of his customers.
"...Richard Craig Estey's 26 mini-casinos generated $6 million in retailer commissions.
Estey was forced to sell for $15 million. Retailer commissions have been reduced from the overtly grotesque 32 percent to the overly generous 23 percent, leaving us with what Steve Novick calls "Oregon's permanent bail-out.
"we're not supposed to have casinos. If the only reason a place is in business is because it's propped up by lottery subsidies, then it's no longer a functioning tavern, it's a casino."
This is from an OregonLive comment on a 900,000 dollar restaurant, bowling alley and lottery retailer fighting the Lottery Commission and blaming the smoking ban for losing its customers to a nearby smoking establishment, an Indian casino. I don't know if the Indian casino was behind the Commissions attempt to yank the retailer's right to sell lottery tickets so as to get the remainder of his customers.
September 26th, 2010 at 2:43:33 PM
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Quote: FleaStiff
This is from an OregonLive comment on a 900,000 dollar restaurant, bowling alley and lottery retailer fighting the Lottery Commission and blaming the smoking ban for losing its customers to a nearby smoking establishment, an Indian casino. I don't know if the Indian casino was behind the Commissions attempt to yank the retailer's right to sell lottery tickets so as to get the remainder of his customers.
Highly doubtful. The Indian casinos in Oregon have been doing pretty well, even in the Second Great Depression. In any case, the Oregon Lottery Commission doesn't have anything to do with the state's Indian casinos; those operate under several distinct tribal-state compacts. I can't see any Indian casino expending any significant resources to try to eliminate a single semi-competitor.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
September 26th, 2010 at 8:06:08 PM
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More on Dotty's
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
September 26th, 2010 at 8:26:10 PM
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Quote: mkl654321Highly doubtful. The Indian casinos in Oregon have been doing pretty well, even in the Second Great Depression. In any case, the Oregon Lottery Commission doesn't have anything to do with the state's Indian casinos; those operate under several distinct tribal-state compacts. I can't see any Indian casino expending any significant resources to try to eliminate a single semi-competitor.
There's a non-tribal casino proposal on the ballot this November, sited in east Portland. You can bet the tribes will spend (are spending) millions to combat that. The nearest casino to Portland is Spirit Mountain, roughly an hour south-west, and they'd lose well over 2/3 of their play if there were a casino in the metro Portland area. There are already plans on the books for a tribal casino (Cowlitz) about 25 miles north of Portland, in La Center, Washington. In fact, the Portland casino campaign is citing that as another reason to open the local one - to keep the jobs and tax receipts in Oregon. It's going to get interesting.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
September 26th, 2010 at 8:37:44 PM
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Quote: MathExtremistThere's a non-tribal casino proposal on the ballot this November, sited in east Portland. You can bet the tribes will spend (are spending) millions to combat that. The nearest casino to Portland is Spirit Mountain, roughly an hour south-west, and they'd lose well over 2/3 of their play if there were a casino in the metro Portland area. There are already plans on the books for a tribal casino (Cowlitz) about 25 miles north of Portland, in La Center, Washington. In fact, the Portland casino campaign is citing that as another reason to open the local one - to keep the jobs and tax receipts in Oregon. It's going to get interesting.
The proposal has zippo chance in suburban Portland. Remember when there was a big push for a casino out between Cascade Locks and Hood River? Not that many people live there, but they screamed loud and long enough to kill the proposal. I don't know whether the proposed casino site is in Multnomah or Clackamas county, but I also recall a casino proposal for the fairgrounds in North Portland dying stillborn. Portland residents do NOT want a local casino. Nor should they--it would be a severe financial and social drain on the community. Spirit Mountain is available for those who don't like money. Personally, I've lived in Vegas and in Gresham, and I don't think Gresham would be in any way improved by a shiny new casino (quite the contrary).
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
September 26th, 2010 at 10:42:42 PM
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The site is the old Multnomah Kennel Club, about 5 miles east of the airport. The measure is on the ballot in November, and the attorneys for the pro-casino side now believe a constitutional amendment is unnecessary (Oregon's constitution is typically construed to prohibit casino gaming, but I haven't read it). If the measure passes, expect a preliminary injunction pending the constitutional fight. Right now, it's polling about 60-40 against.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice."
-- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
September 26th, 2010 at 11:22:59 PM
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Quote: MathExtremistThe site is the old Multnomah Kennel Club, about 5 miles east of the airport. The measure is on the ballot in November, and the attorneys for the pro-casino side now believe a constitutional amendment is unnecessary (Oregon's constitution is typically construed to prohibit casino gaming, but I haven't read it). If the measure passes, expect a preliminary injunction pending the constitutional fight. Right now, it's polling about 60-40 against.
If that's the location, I'll bet local residents absolutely HATE the idea. That building/site is in Wood Village, off I-84. If the casino was successful, it would increase traffic and congestion on I-205, I-84, and worst of all, local street like Stark, Sandy, 181st, etc.
“The Legislative Assembly has no power to authorize, and shall prohibit, casinos from operation in the State of Oregon.”
Constitution of Oregon, Article XV, Section 4(12)
They've managed to subvert this Article of the Oregon Constitution by allowing casinos on Injun reservations, which are, at least in theory, sovereign nations subject only to FEDERAL control. A few years ago, California's Proposition 5, which passed, welcomed Injun casinos with open arms. The Oregon pro-casino lobbyists seem to prefer a more piecemeal approach, no doubt figuring that people in, say, Eugene or Salem won't give a damn one way or the other. This is a good thing for them, because local influence can be more easily propagandized and/or bought: Casinos! The cure for all financial ills!!
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
September 27th, 2010 at 10:34:21 AM
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If there's one thing I've realized from all the hoo-hah, it's that commercial casinos in major metropolitan areas is inevitable. Every state save a few outliers will have commercial casinos within 10 to 20 years. Most resistance has fallen because the social ills that the naysayers predicted have not materialized to a great extent, and the financial benefits are just too lucrative. Couple that with incompetent state governments who are almost all in budget shortfall, and the temptation just becomes too great. The domino effect we saw with state lotteries is already occurring (cf. Ontario-->Mich.-->Pa.--->Ohio, etc.).
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
September 27th, 2010 at 11:07:56 AM
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Quote: teddys
If there's one thing I've realized from all the hoo-hah, it's that commercial casinos in major metropolitan areas is inevitable. Every state save a few outliers will have commercial casinos within 10 to 20 years.
It does seem insane to me that our four largest states (CA, TX, NY, and FL) which add up to almost 1/3 of the population of the country have Racetrack Casinos and Indian Casinos but no commercial casinos.
Type of operation no. of states
Commercial Casinos (C) 13
Indian Casinos (I) 29
Noncasino Devices (N) 6
Racetrack Casinos (R) 12
Thirteen states with commercial casinos
Colorado
Illinois
Indiana
Iowa
Kansas
Louisiana
Michigan
Mississippi
Missouri
Nevada
New Jersey
Pennsylvania
South Dakota
These last group of states (17.5% of population) have no commercial, racetrack, or Indian casinos. Only Hawaii and Utah have no form of legalized gambling at all (not even charity). List is by order of population of state.
Georgia
Virginia
Massachusetts
Tennessee
Maryland
South Carolina
Kentucky
Arkansas
Utah
New Hampshire
Hawaii
Vermont
District of Columbia
September 27th, 2010 at 11:29:01 AM
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Quote: pacomartinIt does seem insane to me that our four largest states (CA, TX, NY, and FL) which add up to almost 1/3 of the population of the country have Racetrack Casinos and Indian Casinos but no commercial casinos.
Type of operation no. of states
Commercial Casinos (C) 13
Indian Casinos (I) 29
Noncasino Devices (N) 6
Racetrack Casinos (R) 12
Thirteen states with commercial casinos
Colorado
Illinois
Indiana
Iowa
Kansas
Louisiana
Michigan
Mississippi
Missouri
Nevada
New Jersey
Pennsylvania
South Dakota
Which states will "Never" (or perhaps more accurately, will be the last) to approve commercial casinos? I suspect:
Utah (Organized Conservative opposition. It will never happen here.)
California (there are already several "card clubs" that offer "card based" table games, how do they fit in? Indian gaming interests have filled the demand, and have done an effective job lobbying to keep commercial competition out.)
Texas (A big Utah, I can't see it happening)
Florida (could happen, but tribal gaming, and the proximity to Atlantic City seems to be absorbing all the demand)
Hawaii (surprisingly strong popular opposition to the idea)
New York (organized crime worries, and lobbying from New Jersey and N.E. tribal interests, should keep the commercial casino idea off the ballot for a long time.)
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
September 27th, 2010 at 11:33:40 AM
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Quote: pacomartinIt does seem insane to me that our four largest states (CA, TX, NY, and FL) which add up to almost 1/3 of the population of the country have Racetrack Casinos and Indian Casinos but no commercial casinos.
Thirteen states with commercial casinos
Colorado
Illinois
Indiana
Iowa
Kansas
Louisiana
Michigan
Mississippi
Missouri
Nevada
New Jersey
Pennsylvania
South Dakota
I'm going to use this opportunity to rant a bit about Kansas. See, the recent law that passed in Kansas legalizing casinos was a bit... unusual. Under the new laws, all these new non-Indian casinos that are being planned are going to be managed by a commercial company, but owned by the state. I think Kansas is now the only state in the US that actually owns casinos!
I just don't know what to think about this. On one hand, the state already runs a lottery, so I guess at the very least they're allowing Kansans to gamble with the state at a much better house edge. But stat owned casinos? Can you imagine the conflict of interest?
I do agree with the original topic of the post I quoted, though; I think it's inevitable that commercial casinos are going to be legal near everywhere in the US in the near future. Just look at all that "potential revenue", right?
September 27th, 2010 at 11:59:46 AM
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I agree that the "Big 4" -- TX, CA, FL, and NY -- won't see commercial casinos in the near future. There just isn't enough impetus for it, and the tribal interests being so dominant is certainly a factor. Texas doesn't have any problem with state revenue. Neither does Florida, and they already have the Seminole and Racinos down there. I don't know much about CA, but it seems like the card clubs and Indian joints have the state on lock. Of the four, I'd say New York is the most likely to get a commercial casino in the future, probably somewhere in the New York Metropolitan Area (but not Manhattan).
Frank, you can add Ohio to the list of states with commercial casinos, since the ballot issue was approved last November. You may know that they had no casinos or racinos of any kind prior to this. Ohio was an island of conservatism between oceans of legalized gaming in PA, MI, ONT, IN, and WV. They almost had no choice but to approve. Now there is a solid block of legalized gaming from Council Bluffs, Iowa to Atlantic City. Talk about your RISK boards!
Frank, you can add Ohio to the list of states with commercial casinos, since the ballot issue was approved last November. You may know that they had no casinos or racinos of any kind prior to this. Ohio was an island of conservatism between oceans of legalized gaming in PA, MI, ONT, IN, and WV. They almost had no choice but to approve. Now there is a solid block of legalized gaming from Council Bluffs, Iowa to Atlantic City. Talk about your RISK boards!
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
September 27th, 2010 at 12:03:01 PM
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California and Florida could get casinos if Disney ever decides it wants them as add-ons to their parks.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
September 27th, 2010 at 12:05:12 PM
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I am intrigued by your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsletter...Quote: NareedCalifornia and Florida could get casinos if Disney ever decides it wants them as add-ons to their parks.
A Disney-themed casino would be awesome.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
September 27th, 2010 at 12:05:34 PM
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Would never happen. They refused to put them in their boats...
But it would spice up the disney night life for adults a bit...
But it would spice up the disney night life for adults a bit...
September 27th, 2010 at 12:32:08 PM
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Quote: teddysI am intrigued by your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsletter...
A Disney-themed casino would be awesome.
Goofy working the stick at the craps table? Minnie Mouse walking the floor with a tray of light up yo-yos... That would be awesome. However, Scrooge McDuck as a pit boss I could do without.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
September 27th, 2010 at 1:48:39 PM
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Quote: teddysIf there's one thing I've realized from all the hoo-hah, it's that commercial casinos in major metropolitan areas is inevitable. Every state save a few outliers will have commercial casinos within 10 to 20 years. Most resistance has fallen because the social ills that the naysayers predicted have not materialized to a great extent, and the financial benefits are just too lucrative. Couple that with incompetent state governments who are almost all in budget shortfall, and the temptation just becomes too great. The domino effect we saw with state lotteries is already occurring (cf. Ontario-->Mich.-->Pa.--->Ohio, etc.).
The "financial benefits" are illusory. If a casino provides tax revenue, that money is a fraction of the total that the casino won from its customers. So if a casino earned $100 million, and was taxed at, say, 25%, then $25 million goes to the state. However, the citizens of that state lost $100 million. So four times as much money was REMOVED from that society as was returned to it in the form of taxes. The remaining $75 million went to the operating costs of the casino, and then its net profit (which usually flows out of the state). It is a spectacularly inefficient way of raising revenue; the only reason it has been even remotely palatable in some states is that it is a "voluntary" tax, as well as a "sin" tax, and those kinds of taxes are always popular with state legislatures.
Of course, casinos are starting to appeal more and more to cash-strapped state governments, as a way of "creating" revenue. Some governments realize that the costs, social and financial, of casinos FAR outweigh the benefits. Others, however, see them as a quickie solution that is much easier than, God forbid, cutting SPENDING. (California is a recent example of this; their schools have accommodations for left-handed albino deaf students in wheelchairs who only speak Tagalog, but they don't have enough money for textbooks. The solution proposed is NOT to stop building the special audio-visual capsules for those "special" students at $50,000 a pop, but to scream at the state legislature for more funding. The legislature, in turn, looks for methods of "revenue creation" rather than that abhorrent action, "reducing expenditures".)
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
September 27th, 2010 at 1:56:40 PM
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Quote: teddysI am intrigued by your ideas and wish to subscribe to your newsletter...
A Disney-themed casino would be awesome.
A lot of people say that. I should consider thinking about putting out a newsletter....
Anyway, I side in the direction of dlevinelaw: it's damned unlikely.
But had Vegas' missguided attempt to rebrand itself as a "family" destination suceeded, then Disney would have put casinos in every hotel it owns in Pasadena and Orlando, plus one more in Cinderella's castle.
Donald Trump is a fucking criminal
September 27th, 2010 at 2:16:48 PM
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Quote: NareedA lot of people say that. I should consider thinking about putting out a newsletter....
Anyway, I side in the direction of dlevinelaw: it's damned unlikely.
But had Vegas' missguided attempt to rebrand itself a s a "family" destination had suceeded, then Disney would have put casinos in every hotel it owns in Pasadena and Orlando, plus one more in Cinderella's castle.
Harrah's already operates over thirty Mickey Mouse casinos nationwide.
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
September 27th, 2010 at 5:49:53 PM
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Are they really, though? I thought the consensus was that it is a wash; the social problems haven't materialized on the level the doomsdayers said they would, but the financial benefits haven't been the cure-all that people thought they would be either. In most jurisdictions, casinos are just "there." They are quickly becoming a part of the landscape.Quote: mkl654321Some governments realize that the costs, social and financial, of casinos FAR outweigh the benefits.
"Dice, verily, are armed with goads and driving-hooks, deceiving and tormenting, causing grievous woe." -Rig Veda 10.34.4
September 27th, 2010 at 6:11:18 PM
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Quote: teddysAre they really, though? I thought the consensus was that it is a wash; the social problems haven't materialized on the level the doomsdayers said they would, but the financial benefits haven't been the cure-all that people thought they would be either. In most jurisdictions, casinos are just "there." They are quickly becoming a part of the landscape.
Well, from the financial standpoint, the best possible outcome would be a wash, and that would only be if all the money lost to casinos remained in the state. There's no added benefit in moving money from one taxpayer's pocket to another.
It would also be fairly hard to quantify the social problems--only the outright disasters would be apparent. If someone leads a worse lifestyle, they are less healthy, their kids don't get new clothes as often, they eat cheaper and unhealthier food, etc. etc. etc., because they've been losing a portion of their income to a casino, that won't be easy to spot. In Las Vegas, however, the signs and symptoms are all too obvious.
I agree that there is much less social stigma attached to casinos and "recreational gambling" now, than in even the recent past. I wonder just how much that is a function of increased prosperity. In economic times like these, a casino might be viewed as a parasite that a weakened host can no longer support--and a successful parasite does NOT kill its host (and that is what is happening in dying Las Vegas).
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. The happiness of credulity is a cheap and dangerous quality.---George Bernard Shaw
September 28th, 2010 at 12:03:00 AM
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2004 Proposition 68 was a ballot measure to expand casinos in California. Basically it pointed a gun at the Indian operators' heads to get them to renegotiate their compacts to provide more money. If all of them did not agree to new compacts, including compliance with state environmental and labor laws which tribes as sovereign entities do not ordinarily comply with, then the "trigger" would be pulled allowing 16 specified casinos to get the right to operate a combined 30,000 slot machines statewide.
The Indians poured tons of money into defeating this, and ultimately the card rooms and race tracks cried uncle one month before the election. It failed by a 6 to 1 margin. The tribes are too powerful and the card clubs are content with table game innovations like EZ Baccarat, card craps, and no bust blackjack to bother with going for slot machines, which would engender both tribal opposition and tribe-funded neighborhood concerns.
The Indians poured tons of money into defeating this, and ultimately the card rooms and race tracks cried uncle one month before the election. It failed by a 6 to 1 margin. The tribes are too powerful and the card clubs are content with table game innovations like EZ Baccarat, card craps, and no bust blackjack to bother with going for slot machines, which would engender both tribal opposition and tribe-funded neighborhood concerns.
September 30th, 2010 at 7:55:17 AM
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>It would also be fairly hard to quantify the social problems--only the outright disasters would be apparent.
True and the outright disasters become headlines and then fade from the memory. If a murder happens to take place at a casino, the cost of the trial is not allocated to the casino. The cost of housing an inmate is not borne by the casino. If there is a general increase in alcoholism and spousal-abuse it will not result in accounting entries affecting the casino.
>In Las Vegas, however, the signs and symptoms are all too obvious.
I don't know what you mean by this. I see pool parties with locals spending generously.
>there is much less social stigma attached to casinos and "recreational gambling" now, than in even the recent past.
True. Money liberates the individual and perhaps once that liberation takes hold it extends to values.
>and a successful parasite does NOT kill its host (and that is what is happening in dying Las Vegas).
Dying? Some places are building. Rooms are cheap. Cheap motels suddenly can't give their rooms away.
But if you add up all the Non-Obvious-Gambling that is going on in Vegas, it seems that an awful lot of money is changing hands.
True and the outright disasters become headlines and then fade from the memory. If a murder happens to take place at a casino, the cost of the trial is not allocated to the casino. The cost of housing an inmate is not borne by the casino. If there is a general increase in alcoholism and spousal-abuse it will not result in accounting entries affecting the casino.
>In Las Vegas, however, the signs and symptoms are all too obvious.
I don't know what you mean by this. I see pool parties with locals spending generously.
>there is much less social stigma attached to casinos and "recreational gambling" now, than in even the recent past.
True. Money liberates the individual and perhaps once that liberation takes hold it extends to values.
>and a successful parasite does NOT kill its host (and that is what is happening in dying Las Vegas).
Dying? Some places are building. Rooms are cheap. Cheap motels suddenly can't give their rooms away.
But if you add up all the Non-Obvious-Gambling that is going on in Vegas, it seems that an awful lot of money is changing hands.
September 30th, 2010 at 10:19:18 AM
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Quote: FleaStiffBut if you add up all the Non-Obvious-Gambling that is going on in Vegas, it seems that an awful lot of money is changing hands.
The Gross State Domestic Product for Fiscal Year 2009 was $130 billion, while the revenue in all the state casinos was $22 billion. So something is going on.
There may not be huge companies, but there are a lot of retirees. I think that health care is a big part of the GDP of Nevada.
October 14th, 2010 at 8:26:53 AM
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It doesn't seem to be just the retirees plugging away at all those slot machines. Add up all the action at the various Dotty-like slot parlors and the various actions of the Yuppie Watering Holes and there still seems to be a heck of a lot of money being gambled at these various "non-casino casinos". If I were to pass by these low-dives I would dismiss them but it seems there are enough people betting there to keep the owners happy.
December 11th, 2010 at 3:53:58 PM
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The Yuppie Watering Holes seem to have the usual Bar and Restaurant. Its often a soft jazz, comfortable chairs, dark alcoves ... A yuppie bar with Video Poker machines.Quote: FleaStiffand the various actions of the Yuppie Watering Holes and there still seems to be a heck of a lot of money being gambled at these various "non-casino casinos".
Now I understand that some are limited to 15 machines and some can have 35 machines, but my question is not related to any one specific place or size of place, I would just like to know what is "reasonable" for a bar-owner to expect from his bar-top and gambling-alcove machines. How much money is really going through those machines.
December 11th, 2010 at 7:25:06 PM
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Quote: FleaStiffThe Yuppie Watering Holes seem to have the usual Bar and Restaurant. Its often a soft jazz, comfortable chairs, dark alcoves ... A yuppie bar with Video Poker machines.
Now I understand that some are limited to 15 machines and some can have 35 machines, but my question is not related to any one specific place or size of place, I would just like to know what is "reasonable" for a bar-owner to expect from his bar-top and gambling-alcove machines. How much money is really going through those machines.
Define a mini-casino as a casino with a non-restricted license that make less than $1 million a year gaming revenue.
The 88 mini- casinos in the state of Nevada have an average of 37 slot machines. Each slot machine averages $13K per year for an average of $485K per year per mini-casino. Now some of these mini casino have a table which averages $164K per year.
A restricted license is no tables or sports bet kiosk, and is restricted to a maximum of 15 slot machines. I don't see why each slot machine can't make as much as $20K per year. There are almost 3000 of these restricted licenses in Nevada. But the Golden Tavern group owns 39 pubs in Las Vegas. Cumulatively that is the same number of slots as a small casino.
There are certainly a number of millionaires who have built their fortunes on these bars. Sometimes they get started with the bars, and then they purchase a small casino.
You can slide one of these bars into an otherwise wealthy neighborhood where you could never build a casino.
December 29th, 2010 at 6:15:49 AM
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I saw something in the Las Vegas Sun about all tavern license applications are on hold until the liquor commission defines what a tavern is. (One would think they might already know that).
It seems that there is a tremendous amount of gambling going on at these "shadow" casinos, as I've come to call these places that offer gambling in a No Glitz, No Glamor atmosphere far off the Las Vegas Strip.
Actually the Tavern moratorium is being viewed by Dotty as being limited to her and revolves around the Tax on Slot Machine Revenues question versus the Flat Fee for a Slot Machine question. It also embraces the question of whether a primary business is defined by profits.
County puts moratorium on new tavern licenses
By Dylan Scott
Taverns allowed gaming that is “incidental” to its main business operations. Sisolak said some businesses appear to be operating as taverns, but bringing in most of their profits through gaming — precisely what the code attempts to prevent.
It was called “the Dotty’s model” during nearly three hours of public comment.
Dotty’s usually houses a bar with food in addition to 15 slot and video poker machines at its locations, under a restricted gaming license.
....
For those interested in Locals Casinos:
January 25, 2011
12:15 PM
RJ Rowley, Gaming Research Colloquium
"Neon Beyond the Neon: The Geography of Locals Casinos"
Rowley, an assistant professor of geography at the University of Wisconsin-Platteville, will discuss his research into the origins of the locals casino phenomenon in Las Vegas. Locals casinos, which cater primarily to residents of the city rather than tourists, date from the 1970s and are a characteristic development of the local landscape. Rowley also links the expansion of the locals gaming market with the proliferation of casino gambling across the United States.
The event is free and open to the public.
The talk is being held in UNLV Special Collections’ Reading Room, on the third floor of Lied Library.
On-edit: Just that title alone: "Neon Beyond the Neon" is impressive. You leave the glitter of The Strip and of Glitter Gulch and of The Bouder Strip ... and you get to the simple neon sign that reads Dotty's Casino near some third tier shopping center parking lot.
It seems that there is a tremendous amount of gambling going on at these "shadow" casinos, as I've come to call these places that offer gambling in a No Glitz, No Glamor atmosphere far off the Las Vegas Strip.
Actually the Tavern moratorium is being viewed by Dotty as being limited to her and revolves around the Tax on Slot Machine Revenues question versus the Flat Fee for a Slot Machine question. It also embraces the question of whether a primary business is defined by profits.
County puts moratorium on new tavern licenses
By Dylan Scott
Taverns allowed gaming that is “incidental” to its main business operations. Sisolak said some businesses appear to be operating as taverns, but bringing in most of their profits through gaming — precisely what the code attempts to prevent.
It was called “the Dotty’s model” during nearly three hours of public comment.
Dotty’s usually houses a bar with food in addition to 15 slot and video poker machines at its locations, under a restricted gaming license.
....
For those interested in Locals Casinos:
January 25, 2011
12:15 PM
RJ Rowley, Gaming Research Colloquium
"Neon Beyond the Neon: The Geography of Locals Casinos"
Rowley, an assistant professor of geography at the University of Wisconsin-Platteville, will discuss his research into the origins of the locals casino phenomenon in Las Vegas. Locals casinos, which cater primarily to residents of the city rather than tourists, date from the 1970s and are a characteristic development of the local landscape. Rowley also links the expansion of the locals gaming market with the proliferation of casino gambling across the United States.
The event is free and open to the public.
The talk is being held in UNLV Special Collections’ Reading Room, on the third floor of Lied Library.
On-edit: Just that title alone: "Neon Beyond the Neon" is impressive. You leave the glitter of The Strip and of Glitter Gulch and of The Bouder Strip ... and you get to the simple neon sign that reads Dotty's Casino near some third tier shopping center parking lot.
December 29th, 2010 at 6:25:03 AM
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Never thought I would see "University of Wisconsin-Platteville" on this forum ha. Do you know if this will be available via any sort of streaming? I'd be interested in seeing it both due to the interesting content and my ties to UW-Platteville.
December 29th, 2010 at 6:43:31 AM
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It is merely one part of a lecture series put on at UNLV hosted by their Historian. Some of the other events have been streamed but on a much delayed basis.Quote: RonDiazDo you know if this will be available via any sort of streaming?
It might be best to simply visit the DieIsCast website and find out what they say there.
Or perhaps, you could use this event as an excuse to make a trip to Las Vegas?
December 29th, 2010 at 7:28:55 AM
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Thanks, I will check out the website...I am already using CES as my excuse for my yearly trip to Vegas so I will be there earlier in the month.
December 29th, 2010 at 7:44:55 AM
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Sigh...
The state governments don't make their money from income taxes from gaming. They usually receive a share of gross proceeds or license fees as likely the casino corporate offices are usually out of state. These rates are pretty high. In Illinois, it's 35 percent on annual adjusted gross revenues for casinos earning more than $100 million / year.
As well, the gaming industry provides jobs, both in construction (when building) and ongoing jobs (the casino itself). There are tertiary jobs as well, such as in the nearby hotels that support the casino.
Yep, there's a social cost, absolutely. The elderly and infirm, who used to be only to gamble in Las Vegas, can now make the 20 minute trek to the casino. They are probably spending far more now then they were 10 years ago on gambling. Crime rates around casinos are generally very high, and residential property values near a casino always fall after a casino opening.
However, what is a state to do? If you're strapped for cash and people are spending billions of dollars a one hour drive away, why not open one in your state, take the jobs, put in away from a residential area, increase policing in that area, and take the tax revenue away from your next door neighbor? It's easy.
Finally, revenue creation is generally thought of as the increase of fees and tax rates to support its people. It is much more complicated than that. Revenue from taxes is not static. It is a function of growth. When companies and citizens earn more money, it creates more tax revenue for the state without a rate change. States have to think about the art of creating money. Places that are more attractive to live bring in more affluent people which can start an industry of their own: a flourishing arts community (ok, they're all tax avoiding pot smoking hippies), or a university, medical research centers, etc. Casinos are simple.
The state governments don't make their money from income taxes from gaming. They usually receive a share of gross proceeds or license fees as likely the casino corporate offices are usually out of state. These rates are pretty high. In Illinois, it's 35 percent on annual adjusted gross revenues for casinos earning more than $100 million / year.
As well, the gaming industry provides jobs, both in construction (when building) and ongoing jobs (the casino itself). There are tertiary jobs as well, such as in the nearby hotels that support the casino.
Yep, there's a social cost, absolutely. The elderly and infirm, who used to be only to gamble in Las Vegas, can now make the 20 minute trek to the casino. They are probably spending far more now then they were 10 years ago on gambling. Crime rates around casinos are generally very high, and residential property values near a casino always fall after a casino opening.
However, what is a state to do? If you're strapped for cash and people are spending billions of dollars a one hour drive away, why not open one in your state, take the jobs, put in away from a residential area, increase policing in that area, and take the tax revenue away from your next door neighbor? It's easy.
Finally, revenue creation is generally thought of as the increase of fees and tax rates to support its people. It is much more complicated than that. Revenue from taxes is not static. It is a function of growth. When companies and citizens earn more money, it creates more tax revenue for the state without a rate change. States have to think about the art of creating money. Places that are more attractive to live bring in more affluent people which can start an industry of their own: a flourishing arts community (ok, they're all tax avoiding pot smoking hippies), or a university, medical research centers, etc. Casinos are simple.
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You want the truth! You can't handle the truth!
December 31st, 2010 at 12:31:27 PM
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Quote: FleaStiffIf we lumped all these places into TWO "shadow" casinos, just how much money are we talking about.
Shadow Casino One: The Dottys-like places: Slot machines galore, nice chairs, some snacks, but not much else.
Shadow Casino Two: The more Yuppie oriented places, Sports Bars and Microbrew type places.
Just how much gambling is really going on at the virtually invisible casinos?
Okay everyone. Thank you all for your very helpful comments.
Of necessity, there is a little imprecision and overlap in the concept of "locals" or "Shadow" casinos.
Obviously, they all have signs, some of them quite prominent. Some of the "locals" places cater to a great many tourists as well. And even a generalized dump such as Dotty's Number Nth can get a tourist now and then. Some tourists visit Strip Casinos but meet an in-town acquaintance at some Yuppie-Type-Watering-Hole that features Video Poker. And it seems that the non-yuppie bars should really be included since their VP machines get so much action as well even if their customers are not always thought of as Yuppies.
I think the upcoming lecture "Neon Beyond The Neon" may be an interesting discussion. I wonder sometimes just how many people work at a casino for one shift and then spend substantial amounts of time and money feeding another casino's coffers. It seems there are a good many establishments in town that cater to casino employees who've just ended their shifts. Such restaurant/Karoke/VP machines places may make most of their money on food and the renting of Karoke girls but I'm sure the VP machines rake in the money as well. The newly opened Asian-themed lounge in Chinatown is essentially an upscale VP lounge with Asian food and Asian drinks but it is just as much a gambling joint as any other in town. Its VP games bring in substantial amounts even if they are not the primary focus of the place.
So thank you all for you contributions. Its been an interesting question. How did the real "locals" casinos get started and then later Stationized to a less-rewarding-than-before but still a "bargain casino"? Harrah's management has taken a great deal in bonuses. I wonder how the percentages compare to bonuses after a real locals place gets taken over?
January 5th, 2011 at 9:33:35 AM
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Amplifying somewhat the comments made in a recent review of Suncoast casino, a Boyd's casino on the periphery of Summerlin, I wonder just how sharp those locals really are?Quote: FleaStiffHow did the real "locals" casinos get started and then later Stationized to a less-rewarding-than-before but still a "bargain casino"? Harrah's management has taken a great deal in bonuses. I wonder how the percentages compare to bonuses after a real locals place gets taken over?
If its a locals casino, the customers are supposed to be unswayed by the glitter of the strip and focus on the gaming. The review however points out that the VP offerings are dismal. There is a 600 seat Bingo room, but it is largely empty. The question arises: just how sharp are those local patrons? Or is it, that the poor slot offerings are accepted because the real value is the movie theater, teen arcade and the like. So that the customers of Suncoast are paying a geographic-premium for a casino that is close by but offers bland gambling options.
January 5th, 2011 at 10:38:28 AM
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For the last 12 months ending June 2010 the totals (according to Applied Analysis) the gaming revenue are:
$2,060,837,258 Locals casinos 23% of Clark County
$5,729,064,941 Strip casinos 65% of Clark County
$1,089,094,185 Downtown, Mesquite, and Laughlin 12% of Clark County
For the year ending June 1999 the totals for gaming revenue were:
$1,347,732,718 Locals casinos 20% of Clark County
$4,119,989,410 Strip casinos 61% of Clark County
$1,266,853,843 Downtown, Mesquite, and Laughlin 19% of Clark County
A "Locals casino" is in Clark County, but not on the (1) strip, (2) downtown, (3) Mesquite, or (4) Laughlin . Although this is the only possible statistical definition certainly a handful of casinos that are popular with tourists are included in the "Locals Casino" market (M Resort, South Point, Rampart, Green Valley, Suncoast, Red Rock and the Primm Valley casinos). But even allowing for this relatively small leakage it is remarkable at how much money is made off of the less than 2 million residents of Clark County.
I feel that the industry is predatory by providing literally thousands of places to gamble.
There is no reliable way to statistically break up the locals casino market into "downscale" and "upscale" except by timeline. Prior to 1979 the only locals gaming was small bars with up to 200 slot machines and a few tables. Palace Station was a bingo hall, but the Nevada Gaming Commission considers it to be a strip casino.
In 1979 Sam's Town opened followed by twenty years of fairly downscale locals casinos (Boulder, Santa Fe, Texas Station etc.) including the budget places in Primm and Jean.
In July 1999 the very upscale casino opened in Rampart, Summerlin. The Swiss company intended to create one of the most luxurious resorts in Clark County. They failed to do that, but the end result is still a 4 diamond hotel. In the last 11 years the locals casinos have pretty much shunned the casual western theme and attempted to cater to the upper middle class as well as the tourists who don't want to be on the strip.
$2,060,837,258 Locals casinos 23% of Clark County
$5,729,064,941 Strip casinos 65% of Clark County
$1,089,094,185 Downtown, Mesquite, and Laughlin 12% of Clark County
For the year ending June 1999 the totals for gaming revenue were:
$1,347,732,718 Locals casinos 20% of Clark County
$4,119,989,410 Strip casinos 61% of Clark County
$1,266,853,843 Downtown, Mesquite, and Laughlin 19% of Clark County
A "Locals casino" is in Clark County, but not on the (1) strip, (2) downtown, (3) Mesquite, or (4) Laughlin . Although this is the only possible statistical definition certainly a handful of casinos that are popular with tourists are included in the "Locals Casino" market (M Resort, South Point, Rampart, Green Valley, Suncoast, Red Rock and the Primm Valley casinos). But even allowing for this relatively small leakage it is remarkable at how much money is made off of the less than 2 million residents of Clark County.
I feel that the industry is predatory by providing literally thousands of places to gamble.
There is no reliable way to statistically break up the locals casino market into "downscale" and "upscale" except by timeline. Prior to 1979 the only locals gaming was small bars with up to 200 slot machines and a few tables. Palace Station was a bingo hall, but the Nevada Gaming Commission considers it to be a strip casino.
In 1979 Sam's Town opened followed by twenty years of fairly downscale locals casinos (Boulder, Santa Fe, Texas Station etc.) including the budget places in Primm and Jean.
In July 1999 the very upscale casino opened in Rampart, Summerlin. The Swiss company intended to create one of the most luxurious resorts in Clark County. They failed to do that, but the end result is still a 4 diamond hotel. In the last 11 years the locals casinos have pretty much shunned the casual western theme and attempted to cater to the upper middle class as well as the tourists who don't want to be on the strip.
January 5th, 2011 at 11:21:44 AM
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Particularly since some of those residents also gamble at Strip and Downtown casinos.Quote: pacomartinBut even allowing for this relatively small leakage it is remarkable at how much money is made off of the less than 2 million residents of Clark County.
>I feel that the industry is predatory by providing literally thousands of places to gamble.
Well now, "the industry" is too fragmented to be blamed for anything. The whole point of your posts has been to maintain various distinctions of industry classifications by license, location, official category and "de facto" category. So I don't think its "the industry" since there is too much hatred of Doty's by various Tavern owners.
I'll admit there are literally thousands of places to gamble. Grocery stores, bars, taverns, slot parlors, local casinos, Glitter Gulch, Boulder Strip and the Real Strip all provide opportunities.
I just wonder if these people who live in Las Vegas are really the gambling sharpies that they pretend to be? Do local residents really exercise greater self control over their gambling or just over their travel time? We know that historically slot returns are highest on the Boulder Strip, then Downtown and then The Strip. This is said to be due to the local residents being so sharp that their gambling desires drive the market to cater to their needs and desires. I'm just not sure we can say that the local residents are such sharp gamblers if Suncoast's VP mix is disappointing, the slots unimpressive and even the Bingo sessions are poorly attended.
