Shadow casinos

Supposedly the locals are smart enough to play video poker and steer clear of the games with high house averages. But keno is still a popular locals game.

It doesn't matter in the long run, since locals eventually log more time in the casinos over the course of the year. There are only 2 million people who live in the county, vs. 36-39 million visitors per year. But local gaming is almost a third of strip gaming.

Quote: FleaStiff

Well now, "the industry" is too fragmented to be blamed for anything. The whole point of your posts has been to maintain various distinctions of industry classifications by license, location, official category and "de facto" category. So I don't think its "the industry" since there is too much hatred of Doty's by various Tavern owners.

Perhaps I should say that the gaming commission is catering to the addict by permitting so many licenses with as few as a single machine. Your average person doesn't buy gas and play a slot machine. The line of nickel machines in a convenience store are catering to the addict.

Quote: pacomartin

Supposedly the locals are smart enough to play video poker and steer clear of the games with high house averages.

Supposedly. But if that were true, why would the local casinos still devote all that floorspace to those high house average machines with the cobwebs all over them.

> But keno is still a popular locals game.
Well, you can create an expensive County Senior Citizen Center Program or you can just let all those little old ladies continue to play Keno.
The trouble is some of those Keno players are still on the sunny side of forty and think video keno is going to be profitable for them.

>locals eventually log more time in the casinos
and use euphemisms such as "the office", "my home away from home", "my local", "the watering hole", etc.
Of course they might be at the buffets, bowling lanes, arcades, movies and other non-gambling events for a good bit of that time.

>There are only 2 million people who live in the county, vs. 36-39 million visitors per year.
>But local gaming is almost a third of strip gaming.
No wonder those Maloof guys got rich. No wonder Dotty is so secretive.

>The line of nickel machines in a convenience store are catering to the addict.
Which keeps the truly addicted degenerates out of the very profitable casinos, just as New York's Off Track Betting program keeps the darned two-dollar bettor out of the bookies hair!

I think Dotty and her Maloof friends figured it out:
Locals are not necessarily sharper gamblers, they are simply nearby! If you are out near Summerlin, you don't have to offer much in the way of a house edge. If you are jam packed near other locals casinos you sort of have to offer a bit more but mainly its simply the absence of the mega-themed fluffery that makes your money. You have to fight to draw in those locals but they stay at it long enough that you get those dollars.

The locals technically offer a "better" deal but its often illusory for the average player anyway. What the locals really offer is geographic convenience, simplicity and enough of a "buzz" to keep the addicts enthralled.

Quote: FleaStiff

Or perhaps, you could use this event as an excuse to make a trip to Las Vegas?

If you do decide to make a second quick-trip to Vegas for this lecture, would you write up a "book report" or something for us. I won't be there at all, but I'm quite interested in locals casinos since I think Plain Vanilla is far more profitable than most people realize. Why go to The Strip for trendy, ritzy zillion-flavor freshly made ice cream served by half-naked wenches in naughty outfits? There are enough ice-cream addicts around town who are perfectly willing to have a scoop of plain vanilla from a trucked-in tub from some remote factory.

The tourists go to the strip and get reamed. The locals go to the Boulder Strip and get only a marginally better deal but no traffic jam.

Quote: FleaStiff

No wonder those Maloof guys got rich. No wonder Dotty is so secretive.

Maloof built their original empire on the very local Fiesta Casinos. They sold those around the year 2000 and built the Palms where they bring in the young by dangling celebrities and overt sex.

The true masters of locals gaming are the Fertitta's whose family has been involved in local gaming since they came from Sicily circa 1900.

You know that Dotty is not real, don't you? She is pals with Aunt Jemima.

Quote: pacomartin

You know that Dotty is not real, don't you? She is pals with Aunt Jemima.

Not real? Hey, I'm still trying to get that girl from the electronic blackjack table to go out with me!
Yeah. I know there ain't no real Dotty. Just as most Plain Vanilla casinos don't even serve ice cream at all. And I know that the broad that shows up really will be from an agency.
I thought the Fertittas made their money staging those fights where the winner had to break either his opponent's arm or his opponent's leg or the winner would forfeit the prize money. Later the fights became less violent.

I just heard from an acquaintance whose exhausted the unemployment insurance, no savings, sleeps on a couch ... and still feeds a One Armed Bandit. I think you may be right about all those locals supporting an awful lot of machines.

Quote: FleaStiff

I think Dotty and her Maloof friends figured it out:
Locals are not necessarily sharper gamblers, they are simply nearby!

In the continuing battle over "The Dotty's Business Model", further regulatory hearings have been scheduled to determine the difference between a Slot Parlor and a Tavern.

The attempt is to force Dotty's to replace almost seventy percent of their machines with bar-top machines. I don't quite understand why a machine that is inlaid in a bar is considered "business operations" and a separate free-standing machine to which a person walks up is considered "incidental business". I could understand revenue as a determining factor but physical layout? Seems strange.

See:
Howard Stutz LAS VEGAS REVIEW-JOURNAL Mar. 19, 2011
(heavily excerpted)
The Gaming Control Board has scheduled a workshop for Wednesday to gather input on the state regulation that covers restricted gaming licenses. The board is seeking to determine what level the operation of slot machines is viewed as "incidental to the primary business." The issue centers around the Dotty's 64 locations statewide.

.....

Quote: gofaster87

Enough money is going through the machines as to be the main profit for the business. I can recall two people, one a bar owner and the other a convenience store owner that mentioned the only reason they own the joints is for the slot money. In fact the bar owner closed down for two weeks while the license and new machines were going through the commission. He said there was no money to be made at the bar just serving liquor.

It can make or break a business. Even the national supermarket chains have slot parlors. Clark County has well over a thousand "restricted licenses" that permit up to a maximum of 15 machines. In addition they have "unrestricted licenses" that permit more slots and table games as well. To make it easier there are "slot route" operators that maintain the machines and simply pay the business owner a rental fee for square footage in his business.

But there are also several very successful business in LV that run chains of bars that make most of their profit on the slots. Dotty's is different because it is more built around smoking and big comfortable chairs. I guess there are a lot of people who can't smoke in their homes.

The city of Las Vegas has their own restrictions as well. Some properties are limited to 35 machines, and some to 200 machines. If you print out the list of Clark County licenses and the number of slots, you see a group at 35 machines, and another group at just under 200 machines.

DOWNTOWN CASINO HOTEL	16
SMITH'S FOOD & DRUG CENTER #370	17
ALBERTSON'S #6046	20
CARDENAS MARKETS	20
LEGENDS CASINO	20
LOOSE CABOOSE NELLIS	20
R-BAR	20
VON'S GROCERY STORE #2198	20
CAL-NEV-ARI CASINO	23
MUGSHOTS EATERY & CASINO	27
PT'S PLACE	29
PT'S PLACE	29
DOTTY'S #32	30
PT'S PLACE	31
SILVER SADDLE SALOON	32
BIG DOG'S CAFE & CASINO	33
TRIPLE PLAY, THE	34
ALIBI CASINO	35
AZTEC GOLD INN & CASINO	35
BEANO'S CASINO	35
BIG DOG'S BAR & GRILL	35
BONANZA LOUNGE	35
CHARLIE'S BAR DOWN UNDER	35
CHARLIE'S LAKESIDE CASINO	35
DOTTY'S #15	35
DOTTY'S CASINO #46	35
DOTTY'S CASINO #9	35
DRAFT HOUSE BARN & CASINO	35
FOOTHILLS EXPRESS	35
FOOTHILLS RANCH	35
LIFT, THE	35
MAD MATTY'S BAR & GRILLE	35
VILLAGE PUB & CASINO-SUMMERLIN	35
ULTRA NEW TOWN TAVERN	36
GREENS CAFE, THE	37
DOTTY'S #5	40
DOTTY'S #8	40
VILLAGE PUB AND CASINO - GREEN VALLEY	40
SAHARA SALOON & LIQUOR STORE, INC.	42
FORT CHEYENNE	45
STAGE DOOR CASINO	46
19TH HOLE	47
DOTTY'S #6	47
GOLDEN WEST RESTAURANT & CASINO	50
MARDI GRAS INN	50
INDIAN SPRINGS CASINO	61
STETSON'S	65
STATELINE CASINO	69
DANNY'S SLOT COUNTRY	75
REGENCY CASINO	75
TERRIBLE'S TOWN CASINO - SEARCHLIGHT	75
CASINO VALLE VERDE	78
CLARION HOTEL & CASINO	89
LAKE MEAD LOUNGE	89
SEARCHLIGHT NUGGET CASINO	96
TERRIBLE'S TOWN CASINO	96
LAS VEGAS AUTO/TRUCK PLAZA	109
LA BAYOU CASINO	125
OPERA HOUSE CASINO	145
GOLD RUSH CASINO	147
KLONDIKE SUNSET CASINO	159
WILDFIRE CASINO - BOULDER	168
MYSTIC LODGE CASINO	182
GOLD SPIKE HOTEL AND CASINO	185
WILDFIRE CASINO	196
BIGHORN CASINO	198
BARLEY'S CASINO & BREWING COMPANY	199
WILDFIRE CASINO AND LANES	199
WILD WILD WEST GAMBLING HALL & HOTEL	200
MERMAIDS CASINO	212
SIEGEL SLOTS & SUITES	231
LONGHORN CASINO	234
EUREKA CASINO	264
CASUARINA CASINO LAS VEGAS	265
WESTERN HOTEL AND CASINO	300
ELLIS ISLAND CASINO	317
GOLDEN GATE HOTEL & CASINO	330
LUCKY CLUB CASINO & HOTEL	330
RAILROAD PASS CASINO	340
RAINBOW CLUB AND CASINO	340
POKER PALACE, THE	349
SILVER NUGGET CASINO AND RV PARK	356
HACIENDA HOTEL & CASINO	389
BILL'S GAMBLIN' HALL & SALOON	390

Some of those I recognize as having substantial food and alcohol business and not at all being mere slot parlors masquerading as Taverns simply because they have a liquor license. Dottys serves some booze and some microwaved burgers but its to customers who are already there to play the slots.

Yet if you add up all these Dotty places and other businesses wherein the slots are a major draw and then you add in the places that are indeed real restaurants and bars and just happen to also have one or two dozen slot machines... it sure seems there is a heck of alot of gambling going on amongst Las Vegas locals. Grocery stores, gas stations, bars, restaurants .. and of course real casinos, its a whole heck of a lot of gambling going on.

It seems Industry Night bargains bring in the casino employees on their days off. There doesn't seem to be an escape. Time share salesmen and pornslappers are nothing! Try escaping the one armed bandits!

Quote: FleaStiff

Yet if you add up all these Dotty places and other businesses wherein the slots are a major draw and then you add in the places that are indeed real restaurants and bars and just happen to also have one or two dozen slot machines... it sure seems there is a heck of alot of gambling going on amongst Las Vegas locals. Grocery stores, gas stations, bars, restaurants .. and of course real casinos, its a whole heck of a lot of gambling going on.

The 104 locations in Nevada that offer hotel rooms and make more than an average of more than $1M per month totaled $9.17 billion last fiscal year. Out of those 104 locations 68 are owned by public corporations or have large public debt.

All the other 2000+ locations made $1.16 billion which averages $1155 per household in Nevada. Compare that to the slot clubs in Pennsylvania that made $2.17 billion with almost 5 times the population.

The smallest casino in PA (10 locations) makes more than $12M per month, and in Atlantic City, NJ (11 location) it's about the same at $12M per month. But in Atlantic City the four locations that make less than $20M per month are all going bankrupt and three of them have recently been sold for bargain rates.

The official policy is not that all those gambling locations are draining badly needed money out of the local economy, but that the near universal availability of gambling encourages development and provides jobs.

>All the other 2000+ locations made $1.16 billion which averages $1155 per household in Nevada.
I'm not sure if "per household in Nevada" is relevant. Sure, its a readily available statistic but its a bit like quoting lightening deaths per capita in the USA. The risk is in rural areas and open recreational areas, not the canyons of Wall Street. I was thinking more of the Vegas metro region having so much overt gambling and what I improperly refer to as covert but really just mean less blatant and less glitzy.

>Compare that to the slot clubs in Pennsylvania that made $2.17 billion with almost 5 times the population.
So that is about twice the money but spread out amongst five times the population so its a greater "burden" in Vegas.

>The official policy is ... all those gambling locations ... provides jobs.
Yeah, for slot techs.
And I guess that from time to time Dotty needs a burger-zapper.

Quote: FleaStiff

>
I'm not sure if "per household in Nevada" is relevant. Sure, its a readily available statistic but its a bit like quoting lightening deaths per capita in the USA.

Per household makes a little more sense than per person (commonly used) because that includes children and the imprisoned etc.

Periodically people try to figure out how much the locals gamble. There is no easy way to do it, because surveys are not reliable because people either lie or don't remember. While the restricted licenses (slots only 15 machines or less) or almost all locals, that figure is too small since locals go to local casinos. In the city are many mini-casinos with 200 slots and some table games are local people. But a lot of large casinos with hotel rooms cater primarily to local population.

Often people use the term "locals casinos" which in general means a casino not on the Strip, Downtown, Laughlin, or Mesquite (in Clark County). The figure quoted here is $2 billion for Clark County alone. But that ends up including place in Primm (California border) , M Resort, and high end places like Green Valley, and Red Rock which cater to a mix of tourists and wealthy residents. If the gaming commission printed revenue for every location you could pick and choose.

The real back country which is not near California, Utah, or Arizona still brings in $141 million in gaming revenue and $74 million in non-gaming. Total population of the 12 completely rural counties is 177K. So that is almost $813 gaming and $418 non-gaming revenue per person per year.

There are very few people with money in the rural counties, and larger population are Mormons. The tourists or even passerbys are very rare since there are no interstates highways. So it shows you that given large scale availability that people will gamble.

Agreed. Surveys are useless.
Per household is indeed probably better than per capita but I meant for the local area only, not statewide.

Mormons supposedly do not gamble but there is a term "Jack-Mormons" which we might assume embraces those who do indeed gamble. Some casinos are so remote that there are no tourists at all.

I was more thinking of the Vegas area households wherein the parents gamble away their pensions, an adult child gambles away unemployment insurance and jokes are made about "home", "home away from home" or other such terms indicating the nearby casinos. Even in the Beth Rayner memoir now being made into a movie, the car salesman father used the phrase "my office" to refer to the High Limit table aboard one of the Florida day boats. I know of one unemployed person in Las Vegas who routinely visits five casinos.

Arguments aired over defining taverns

Obviously this issue is a hot button since well over 100 people showed up for the hearings.

Dotty's is a chain of 64 locations in Nevada that are classified as taverns. All but 9 of those locations have "restricted licenses" which permit a maximum of 15 slot machines. The key point is that restricted licenses pay a per machine fee, not a percentage. Because these "taverns" do not operate kitchens, patrons are permitted to smoke, which gives them a key competitive advantage today. None of their slot machines are traditional bar top variety. Instead their primary mode is a comfortable reclining chair with a lot of space between machines (unlike a standard casino layout). Dotty's has some unrestricted licenses so it can operate more than 15 machines, but they do not have table games.They do not have a website, and traditionally operate by word of mouth.

Golden Tavern Group operates 46 taverns and is the largest such operator in the state of Nevada. Village Pub, Timber's Gaming , Roadrunner, and Magoo's Gaming Group are other examples that fit the more traditional description of a tavern.

The business model of Dotty's is both admired and being attacked. In the recession they have bought several bankrupt taverns and expanded. They operate in many local strip shopping centers. The attackers feel that it somehow undermining the gaming restrictions by operating business that are almost exclusively slot clubs, instead of having slots as an adjunct to a traditional business (usually a tavern, bowling alley, or supermarket).

Since it is privately held, there is no financial reporting, but Dotty's could have revenue from $50 to $80 million per year.

>Obviously this issue is a hot button since well over 100 people showed up for the hearings.
In the Locals Casinos versus Dotty battle, the lawyers will make certain there is a large turnout. Local casinos see themselves paying taxes on the income and having the associated administrative expenses as well as the expenses associated with proving full casino amenities.

>patrons are permitted to smoke, which gives them a key competitive advantage today.
An advantage over "real taverns" perhaps, but casinos are smoking environments, albeit with a constant tattoo of complainers.

>their primary mode is a comfortable reclining chair with a lot of space between machines (unlike a standard casino layout).
The solitary gamblers. No meals together, no socializing, ... slots.

I'm reminded of the old expression: There is no such thing as a free lunch.
Yet bars often offered very generous Free Lunches, albeit often featuring salty foods.
I wonder if the screws get tightened, can poor Dotty go to a Free Beer if you Buy A Lunch model? By that I mean Dotty could give zillions of free credits away if you buy one of their now fifty-cent burgers for a hundred dollars? This would make the slots less ancilliary and increase the food service revenue to the point that it was no longer incidental.

Little old slot parlor Dotty versus big mean Goliath casinos... The Battle Continues in the Las Vegas Sun:

Is Dotty’s a tavern? Amid battle, big casinos say no
By Liz Benston Tuesday, March 29, 2011

To call Dotty’s a bar probably would offend the quiet, mostly female crowd that has gathered this particular evening for video poker and electronic keno. The Dotty’s on Serene Avenue is the newest storefront in a gambling chain with a grandmotherly name that has spread rapidly despite the Great Recession. It is taking over failed taverns and wicking away customers from big, neighborhood casinos. ... “This is a controlled environment. You don’t get the drama that you have in a bar, with men trying to pick you up. And you feel more at home here than in a big casino. I would never go anywhere else.”
But Dotty’s, with its homey, country-kitchen look, hushed surroundings and mostly nondrinking crowd, has powerful enemies.
Big casinos ... urged the authorities to force Dotty’s — and a growing number of Dotty’s look-alikes — to resemble traditional bars, with tabletop gambling machines, bar stools and kitchens.

The casinos’ proposals could force the closure of hundreds of taverns.

At Dotty’s, you won’t find any cocktail servers wearing short skirts or low-cut tops, or loud dance music commonly played in some of the town’s high-energy casinos. Nor will you see other casino hallmarks such as flashy, themed slots, blinking jackpot displays or big signs advertising buffet discounts, nightclub events or gambling offers.

You will hear Fleetwood Mac-like music that is soothing enough to discourage bumping and grinding. Instead of TVs blaring sports or the news, walls are lined with curio shelves filled with knickknacks found across America: cow-shaped cookie jars, big-eyed turtles wearing straw hats, smiling frogs sitting on benches, skinny bunny rabbits wearing shorts and stuffed dolls with gingham dresses and buttons for eyes. Further deterring hard drinking are wallpaper borders featuring kitchen crockery and pictures of children and flowers.

“It’s relaxing, not like the sensory overload you get in casinos,”
“Boisterous or crazy people aren’t tolerated. I feel safe here,” she said.
Like bars and casinos with slots, drinks are free for gamblers who spend money. But customers drink moderately.

Tavern owners initially dismissed the testosterone-free establishments as laughable.
“I said they’re nuts — they’ll never make it,” tavern owner Randy Miller told the workshop. Miller is among a growing number of bar owners who have launched Dotty’s look-alikes with equally feminine names such as Molly’s and Jackpot Joanie’s.

“It’s convenient. You don’t have to walk through a big casino and deal with parking.” She doesn’t drink much and dislikes the social pressure to drink in bars — as well as men who get too friendly with her after a few drinks.
.....................................................................

My first question concerning the above excerpts is Why were the local casinos sitting on their duffs during the good times. If you are going to threaten a great many little guys, don't do it during hard times.

My second question would be how many Dotty Look Alikes have opened and why did any taverns go bankrupt instead of going Dotty?

Anyone think the Locals may start a Dotty's Alcove Area in their casinos?

Quote: FleaStiff

What I'd like to get a grasp on is:
If we were to add up all the Beer-and-Burger joints generally aimed at local yuppies, all the Dotty's which I believe are generally aimed at slot-addicts (all day, every day for some), all the substantial alcoves in supermarkets... just how much non-tourist gambling is going on?

Question: Will there ever be a Dotty's for TableGames? Or would that require 300 hotel rooms or something?
SouthPoint is a non-chatty Dummy Up and Deal type place.
What about a BJ game with no yapping? Craps with no whooping and hollering?
Viable business option? Or would that hotel room requirement nix the notion right there?
I don't see how the hotel room requirement would withstand a legal challenge anyway.

Quote: FleaStiff

Question: Will there ever be a Dotty's for TableGames? Or would that require 300 hotel rooms or something?
SouthPoint is a non-chatty Dummy Up and Deal type place.
What about a BJ game with no yapping? Craps with no whooping and hollering?
Viable business option? Or would that hotel room requirement nix the notion right there?
I don't see how the hotel room requirement would withstand a legal challenge anyway.

I think the state statutes say that the NGC has the sole authority to regulate gaming. If the NGC says that only nonrestricted licencees get table games, and you need a hotel/casino for an nonrestricted license, then what they say goes. What *may* work is a Dotty's with 15 electronic table games, if those are classed as slots in NV. I'm not sure whether they are, but they are in other jurisdictions. That's why companies like Shuffle Master and DigiDeal have e-table products in racinos even though only "slots" are allowed.

Quote: MathExtremist

I think the state statutes say that the NGC has the sole authority to regulate gaming. If the NGC says that only nonrestricted licencees get table games, and you need a hotel/casino for an nonrestricted license, then what they say goes. What *may* work is a Dotty's with 15 electronic table games, if those are classed as slots in NV. I'm not sure whether they are, but they are in other jurisdictions. That's why companies like Shuffle Master and DigiDeal have e-table products in racinos even though only "slots" are allowed.

NGC has the sole authority to regulate gaming, but local municipalities anywhere in the USA have the right to say what kind of business can be located in a zoning area. The cities frequently say that a business must have a minimum of 200 or 300 rooms, and for non-hotel locations a maximum of 35 or 200 slot machines. Las Vegas in particular places slot machine limits on many locations inside the city limits. It's partly to control traffic and noise in neighborhoods.

Up until now, the NGC has issued restricted licenses of a maximum of 15 slot machines per location. The business does not have to pay a percentage of the tax, but just a per machine licensing fee. They have not specified what kind of business is in the location, and while most of them are taverns, there are a significant group that are convenience stores, supermarkets, golf courses, bowling alleys, etc. They do collect the type of business for statistical purposes.

There are roughly 2000 restricted licenses which together account for 9.5% of the total take. Last fiscal year, a total of 252 unrestricted licenses reported making over $1 million that year on gaming. Out of the 252, 140 had rooms which are subdivided into four income groups 36 ($1-$12m), 33($12m-$36m), 30($36-$72m), 41(over $72m).

The two largest owners of multiple locations, Dotty's (64 locations) and Golden Gaming(46 locations) have a mixture of restricted and unrestricted locations. Dotty's is the most low key as they do not advertise or even have a website.

I wonder how vital those machines are to the businesses? I have not lived back east for many years. But when I did I many small restaurants and diners only survived due to the pinball machine payoffs. Ann Arundel county had slots till
the late 50's. Biggest reason for losing them was gas station owners who would report the drop at $8 a week.
Ridiculous even back then. The pinball guys insisted they and the location owner each put down half of the actual
proceeds. That way the books balanced and taxes were paid.
If you wanted to open a neighborhood store, bar, or pool hall, financing was available from the pinball man. Only
your half of the pinball profit went to paying off the interest free loan. I personally have a friend who struggled at
first, had to borrow from family until paying off the pinball man, but went one to be a successful business man.
Was back in Baltimore last year and the grocery store on the avenue was tiny but crammed 2 video poker slots
next to the deli, so the American dream still lives.

I don't know. I have talked to small shop owners who took out the machines and replaced them with throw away cell phone sales booth. I suspect most shop owners are simply selling floor space to a "slot run" operator.

Somehow I think that PA might have been better off selling 50 licenses for 500 machines each, rather than 11 licenses with 2000-3000 machines. It probably makes life easier on the regulator, but it would have opened up the business to local people, not just Indian tribes and established international companies. You would probably have two clubs within 10 miles of each other where there would be some competition.

Instead of mega-casinos, there could indeed have been Mom-and-Pop mini-casinos: mainly slots, perhaps one table. Square footage limited. Neighborhood type place. Sort of like the meat prizes in some bars in the upper midwest. Its a modest draw but it draws from the local area only.

Florida has all these slot parlors and de-facto slot parlors that are called "internet cafes", but of course they offer no bargains at all.

One poster said that casinos in Ecuador tended to be small and mainly neighborhood type places.

I would hate to see a team of craps cheats descend on these MomAndPop places though.

Quote: FleaStiff

Instead of mega-casinos, there could indeed have been Mom-and-Pop mini-casinos: mainly slots, perhaps one table. Square footage limited. Neighborhood type place. Sort of like the meat prizes in some bars in the upper midwest. Its a modest draw but it draws from the local area only.

Florida has all these slot parlors and de-facto slot parlors that are called "internet cafes", but of course they offer no bargains at all.

One poster said that casinos in Ecuador tended to be small and mainly neighborhood type places.

I would hate to see a team of craps cheats descend on these MomAndPop places though.

I count 37 places in Nevada with 5 or fewer blackjack tables, 42 with a single roulette table, and 46 with a single craps table. Some places with only one or two tables only open them up on weekends. There is a tendency to steer towards the 15 slot machine model because of the lack of advanced paperwork, and the fact that you only pay an annual fee instead of a percentage. I don't know how many are actual mom and pop places. There seems to be a lot of syndicates.If you have an unrestricted license and you go over a million dollars a year, you must fill out detailed information about the entire business, including food, beverage sales and hotel occupancy & retail.

I don't know if any of the new states will adopt this model. I think most of them feel that it is immoral. The idea of a little room at the supermarket with 15 slot machines will really bother some people. But Nevada viewed gaming as a means of development, while most other states think of it more as an extension of the lottery. It is more efficient to tax the hell out of 10 locations with big companies than to police dozens.

Colorado lawmakers envisioned slots and table games in a mom and pop environment in 3 mountain towns.
There was also a requirement for historic preservation. A certain percentage of the tax revenue went for
preservation, existing buildings had to maintain some originality. In Eureka casino it was an inside brick wall
where Dan Cooper , the owner, had flipped burgers in front of the year before. Annie Oakleys was a little
grocery store in Central City before it became a casino. Even today only 35% of a building total footage can
be for gambling. And only 50% of any floor can be for gambling.
Today Ameristar, Isle of Capri, Riviera etc. dominate the market. And floors look like any casino on the strip.
50% of floor means no gambling in cage, security, lounge, etc. Annie Oakleys is a grocery store ago. Even the
Teller house with the real " Face on the bar room floor " is no longer a casino.
So much for the best laid plans of mice and men.

Quote: pacomartin

The idea of a little room at the supermarket with 15 slot machines will really bother some people. But Nevada viewed gaming as a means of development, while most other states think of it more as an extension of the lottery. It is more efficient to tax the hell out of 10 locations with big companies than to police dozens.

Yes. Legislators and lobbyists all favor a mega-box with lots of jobs and consultant fees and retained control over the taxation. Actually letting Mom And Pop bars, pool halls and pizza parlors prosper is not the legislator's goal. That local Pizza Parlor with ten slot machines will never hire his son in law as a consultant and its increased tax bill would be miniscule. Zoning variances, construction contracts, union jobs, ... thats what a legislator looks upon with favor.

Of course there is some truth in the unsupervisability of all those mom and pop places. Look at the fine levied on Aztec(?) near the base of the Stratosphere for having a 2,000.00 slot fund in a shoe box. It did shine some light on their financial situation though.

Quote: FleaStiff

Of course there is some truth in the unsupervisability of all those mom and pop places. Look at the fine levied on Aztec(?) near the base of the Stratosphere for having a 2,000.00 slot fund in a shoe box. It did shine some light on their financial situation though.

Aztec Gold Inn, at the base of the Stratosphere was fined $5,000 after general partner Donald Dombrowski signed a stipulation admitting to accounting violations. In the Aztec case, the complaint said the casino had been warned in January 2005 of violations in its internal control accounting procedures and agreed to correct the discrepancies. But when state agents reviewed the casino in June, it found continued violations, including underreporting slot winnings by $38,218. State taxes are based on casinos' winnings.They allowed a bartender to have a $2,000 bankroll for making gaming payouts not recorded in the accounting system.

Yes, it's a good example of a place with 35 slot machines (over the 15 for a restricted license). They are supposed to report like a normal casino, but they clearly were hoping to simply keep the money. The Aztec Gold Inn never shows up in the "over $1 million per year" reports, so those slots make less than $78 per day.

In PA where the slots make over $300 per day at PARX, and the state takes 50%, they might have a strange situation if they license a bar with 15 slot machines. The relative scarcity means that a guy with a well positioned bar could be taking in $1.5 million on 15 machines. If he was just paying a reasonable annual fee for taxes, he could be taking home a good income. But if the state wants a percentage, then there in trouble.

Quote: pacomartin

In the Aztec case, the casino had been warned in January 2005 of violations in its accounting procedures and agreed to correct the discrepancies. But when state agents reviewed the casino in June, it found continued violations, including underreporting slot winnings by $38,218. State taxes are based on casinos' winnings.They allowed a bartender to have a $2,000 bankroll for making gaming payouts not recorded in the accounting system.

I wonder why the casino did not take the hint. Perhaps the underreporting was highly profitable?

>The Aztec Gold Inn never shows up in the "over $1 million per year" reports, so those slots make less than $78 per day.
With their accounting procedures, you bet they never showed up on that over one million per year list!

>In PA where the slots make over $300 per day at PARX, and the state takes 50%,
It might well be cheaper for the state to just have a flat fee or an auction for a flat fee arrangement. Trying to enforce a percentage might become reminiscent of the Chicago Streetcars of long ago: If the nickle land on Heads, it went to the Motorman, if the nickle landed on Tails, it went to the Conductor and if the nickle landed on its edge, it went to the Chicago Transit Authority.

At some point in time slot machines will no longer make 300 per day but they might do even better in local Mom And Pop places. No travel time and no travel expenses means that the gambler can put even more into the machine.

Now we can all condemn the various players but in reality if some woman wants to go to Dottys to avoid drunken men hitting on her, she might as well do it.
If someone wants to do slots on his lunch hour rather than treking to ParkX, then so be it.

Quote: FleaStiff

I wonder why the casino did not take the hint. Perhaps the underreporting was highly profitable?

I would think that a tax rate of only 6.5% that it would be in the best interest of most businesses in Nevada not to screw with the Gaming Commission. But I suppose that everybody tries something.

I think the largest "all slot" club in the state, which is also an "all penny" club is Emerald Island Casino in Henderson. They have no hotel, and 400 penny machines and is owned by two brothers. The average penny machine in Boulder strip earns $98 per day, so this could be a $14 million/year business. I assume that food/drinks are operated at break even.


Rainbow Club (340 machines) and Mystic Lodge Casino (182 machines) are two other "all slot clubs" in Henderson.

I think Atlantic City may have been better served as a city if they had some kind of restricted licenses. That would allow small pubs and restaurants to attract some of the tourist business.

Do the all slot places have different licensing requirements or do they simply predate the requirement for a hotel?

I would think a Hendertucky slot machine would do better than a Boulder Strip slot machine, though not by all that much.

When Circus Circus first started that massive buffet that drew hordes of people in, it actually was done at a profit. If I were running an all slot place, food and beverage would be near breakeven, but I wouldn't really care on which side of break even it happened to fall.
The trick is to keep the machines in use and there is nothing like a comped bag of peanuts or something to keep players going strong.

I think the boom in Dotty-look-alikes is a sign that there really is a substantial market for a no-frills slot parlor for the seriously dedicated slot players. I know the casinos try to reach out to an entire neighborhood but I think Dotty-type places pretty much just rely on passersby.

Quote: FleaStiff

Do the all slot places have different licensing requirements or do they simply predate the requirement for a hotel?

The hotel requirements are placed by local communities, not by the Nevada Gaming Commission. Downtown Las Vegas casinos even predate the city requirement for a hotel. Hence, Binion's was able to close their hotel, but keep the casino open.

Local city codes are usually a combination of history and desire. Henderson may feel that they have enough hotel rooms. The El Dorado and the Jokers Wild go back to the mid 1960's, and were among the first two properties of the Boyd family. Neither one of them has a hotel. THe population at that time in Henderson was probably minimal.

<deleted>

Quote: pacomartin

Dotty's is the most low key as they do not advertise or even have a website.

I've not checked recently but I thought Dotty had this one-page website that explained their comps point expiration policy. (We mail you a check each month and your points start at zero).

Any further publicity on those hearings?

Quote: FleaStiff

I've not checked recently but I thought Dotty had this one-page website that explained their comps point expiration policy. (We mail you a check each month and your points start at zero).

Any further publicity on those hearings?

The hearing with the county is tomorrow, April 5th.
The resort association, which doesn't believe Dotty's is paying its fair share in gaming taxes, called the businesses "slot saloons" in a letter to Clark County Commissioners this month.

The letter was signed by the CEOs of locals casino companies
Station Casinos, Boyd Gaming Corp., Cannery Casino Resorts, the Silverton Resort, M Resort, Palms and South Point.
MGM Resorts International CEO Jim Murren and
Caesars Entertainment CEO Gary Loveman signed the letter.

Dotty's locations are not within a mile of the Vegas strip. There is one across the street from the M Resort. The nearest one is at least 3 miles from South Point.

As I understand it the problem with the State Gaming Control Board is the requirement that the slots be incidental to the main business. The county is focusing more on the definition of tavern.

Some of the locations have unrestricted licenses, while the majority of locations are restricted "under 15 machines".
Only 22 locations are in the unincorporated areas of Clark County, so they may force a change on those locations



I stand corrected, there is a Dotty's website which is little more than a map of locations for the Dotty's. They have 10 locations in Kmarts (all nonsmoking) across the state.


These are the "unrestricted" locations in Las Vegas region
1) DOTTY'S #6 Craig & Las Vegas Blvd, 89015. @ 47 slot machines this seems to be the biggest Dotty's outside of Nellis Air Force Base
2) DOTTY'S #5 Green Valley Pkwy & Sunset in Henderson, 89014. @ 40 machines
3) DOTTY'S #8 Boulder Hwy & Warm Springs, 89011. @40 machines
4) DOTTY'S #32 Eastern between Owens & Washington, 89101. @30 machines
5) DOTTY'S #9 Sahara & Maryland Pkwy, 89104. @35 machines
6) DOTTY'S #15 Sahara & Richfield, 89102. @35 machines
7) DOTTY'S #46 Lake Mead & Eastern, 89030. @35 machines
* 35 machines seems to be the limit for the city of Las Vegas, because several places besides Dotty's inside the city limits have 35 machines.

These are the "unrestricted" locations elsewhere
8) Dotty's #35 Smith's Shopping Center, Elko, NV 89801 @30 machines
9) Dotty's #37 Raley's Shopping Center, Elko, NV 89801 @30 machines
10) Dotty's #55 145 US Highway 50 East, Dayton 89043 89801 @35 machines (Inland from Carson City)
11) Dotty's #10 Highway 50 Plaza, Carson City, NV 89701 @40 machines
12) Dotty's #12 Raley's Shopping Center, Carson City, NV 89701@40 machines
13) Dotty's #17 Raley's Shopping Center, Fallon, NV 89406 @30 machines
14) Dotty's #?? in Washoe County @34 machines

The newsarticle says 1251 slot machines at 64 locations. The above 14 total 501 machines + 50*15=750. The sum of 750+501=1251.
They are not including the 10 Kmart locations which seem to all be 15 machines or under and are not in dispute. Plus they opened 4 new "tavern" locations.

The lobbying group said a clear definition of "incidental" has never been codified in the Clark County code.

Commission member Tony Alamo also voted against licensing the three new locations after visiting several operating Dotty's taverns. Alamo, a Las Vegas physician, said he wouldn't support the new operations because he believes the gaming regulations need to be changed.

What do I think Dotty's did? They 'may,' in quotations, they may have followed the letter of the law, but I don't think they followed the intent of the law," Alamo said. "I just didn't feel like it was their primary business, a bar, a tavern or a saloon. It just isn't.

It just seems like jealousy to me. In 1995 the concept was very clear, and the Commission signed off on the first four locations, telling them that it was risky proposition, but wished them luck. Now they are successful and everyone is angry.Herbst Gaming took a huge hit on it's slot route operations (over 6000 machines) because of new smoking regulations. These slot routes are still much bigger than the Dotty's chain. Herbst Gaming does $700 million a year ($500 million gaming) with it's 15 casinos and gas station chain.

Dotty's serve beer and wine, but only by the bottle. Because they have no kitchen (prepackaged food only) people can smoke.

In the quarterly report they summarize how many licenses are given. Dotty's is a small percentage of the total.

Out of the 116+335=451 unrestricted licenses, almost 200 make less than $1 million a year, and are exempt from extra reporting.

TYPE	CLARK	SO LAKE TAHOE*	ELKO	CARSON VALLEY*	WASHOE	ALL OTHERS	TOTAL
Restricted	1,394	3	40	79	324	168	2,008
Non Restricted Slots Only	56	0	7	9	14	30	116
Non Restricted Games & Slots	172	5	28	23	52	55	335
MANUFACTURERS	114	0	6	2	12	6	140
DISTRIBUTORS	129	1	8	4	22	7	171
SLOT ROUTE OPERATOR	41	0	2	1	10	2	56
WIRE SERVICES	3	0	0	0	1	0	4
INFORM. SVCS.	3	0	0	0	0	0	3
Total	1,912	9	91	118	435	268	2,833

I suppose if the pressure gets to much on Dotty's, they could simply convert all their locations to unrestricted ones, and squeeze in another 5 or 10 machines per location. They might actually make more money. Here is a detail on restricted locations.

Restricted Locations	CLARK	SO LAKE TAHOE*	ELKO	CARSON VALLEY*	WASHOE	ALL OTHERS	TOTAL
Locations	1,394	3	40	79	324	168	2,008
Total Slots	13,948	42	265	661	2,840	1,336	19,092
Slots/Location	10.01	14.00	6.63	8.37	8.77	7.95	9.51

The restricted locations have 19,092 slot machines vs. 172,353 in the non-restricted locations.

Finally, the types of restricted locations for Clark county.

Type of Location	Location count
Convenience Store	647
Restaurant/Bar	419
Bar	127
Grocery Store	86
Drug Stores	32
Liquor Store	15
Laundromats	12
Restaurant	11
Supermarket	8
General Mdse.	7
Clubs-SVC.,Fraterna	6
Drug Store-Gen'l Md	6
Motel - Hotel	4
Billiard Parlor	3
Car Wash	3
Bar-Off Sale Liquor	2
Truck Stop	2
Pizza Parlor	1
Golf Course	1
R.V. Park-Campgroun	1
Other	1
total	1394

Quote: pacomartin

As I understand it the problem with the State Gaming Control Board is the requirement that the slots be incidental to the main business. The county is focusing more on the definition of tavern.

there is a Dotty's website which is little more than a map of locations for the Dotty's. They have 10 locations in Kmarts (all nonsmoking) across the state.

The lobbying group said a clear definition of "incidental" has never been codified in the Clark County code.

What do I think Dotty's did? They 'may,' in quotations, they may have followed the letter of the law, but I don't think they followed the intent of the law," Alamo said. "I just didn't feel like it was their primary business, a bar, a tavern or a saloon. It just isn't.

It just seems like jealousy to me. In 1995 the concept was very clear, and the Commission signed off on the first four locations, telling them that it was risky proposition, but wished them luck. Now they are successful and everyone is angry.Herbst Gaming took a huge hit on it's slot route operations (over 6000 machines) because of new smoking regulations. These slot routes are still much bigger than the Dotty's chain. Herbst Gaming does $700 million a year ($500 million gaming) with it's 15 casinos and gas station chain.

Dotty's serve beer and wine, but only by the bottle. Because they have no kitchen (prepackaged food only) people can smoke.

I know that some seem to consider the success enjoyed by Dotty to be due primarily to the ability to allow smoking. I'm not quite convinced of that, however, it does seem to be a factor. (In Michigan, some sports bars are trying to re-establish the right to allow patrons to smoke by claiming the bars are mini-casinos and should enjoy the same smoking-allowed rights of the state's three "maxi-casinos". One Upper Peninusula Judge dismissed an American Legion claim but a McComb County judge is allowing an action by a retired Detroit cop who owns a sports bar to proceed. I think the claim is not over primary business but that gambling is a significant enough portion of the total revenue to define the character of the business.).

Claims by competitors based on moral principles are usually claims based solely on money. The various locals casinos don't want their customers to be leeched away even if the distances are great and the numbers are rather low. M Resort probably doesn't think that the one Dottys near it draws much business but is undoubtedly aware that DottyLookAlikes can mushroom nearby.

I would tend to agree that such businesses are really Slot Parlors in appearance and functioning. The degree to which they are smoking-allowed slot parlors is perhaps relevant and also perhaps relevant to their bottom line, but they are indeed slot parlors. However, I've never heard of any Alcoholic Control Commission promising that any alcohol license meant there would be any sort of minimum guaranteed income. The commission licenses the sale of alcohol not the existence of a business that sells al

Quote: FleaStiff

What I'd like to get a grasp on is:
If we were to add up all the Beer-and-Burger joints generally aimed at local yuppies, all the Dotty's which I believe are generally aimed at slot-addicts (all day, every day for some), all the substantial alcoves in supermarkets... just how much non-tourist gambling is going on?

Shadow Casino One: The Dottys-like places: Slot machines galore, nice chairs, some snacks, but not much else.
Shadow Casino Two: The more Yuppie oriented places that provide Booze and Yuppie Menus with Video Poker screens and sports screens all over the place.

Just how much gambling is really going on at the virtually invisible casinos?

It seems that the Shadow Casinos soak up both players and their "quarters". Grocery stores, truck stops, gas stations, laundramats, ... a good many of the places seem to have a minimal focus on the gambling whereas a good many places the focus and the bottom line seems to be on the gambling.

Do these truckstops charge a bit more for fuel because they feel they can since truckers will stop so as to use the machines? I don't know. Are the laundry machines priced or maintained in a different manner than if a laundramat did not have a few slot machines?
Would it still be a laundramat if the pricing structure was twenty-five dollars for a Wash with twenty-dollars of "free credits" thrown in? The slot revenue would truly be "incidental" then.

Are Locals Casinos going to set their sights on gas stations and Kmarts next?

Quote: FleaStiff

It seems that the Shadow Casinos soak up both players and their "quarters". Grocery stores, truck stops, gas stations, laundramats, ... a good many of the places seem to have a minimal focus on the gambling whereas a good many places the focus and the bottom line seems to be on the gambling.

Do these truckstops charge a bit more for fuel because they feel they can since truckers will stop so as to use the machines? I don't know. Are the laundry machines priced or maintained in a different manner than if a laundramat did not have a few slot machines?
Would it still be a laundramat if the pricing structure was twenty-five dollars for a Wash with twenty-dollars of "free credits" thrown in? The slot revenue would truly be "incidental" then.

Are Locals Casinos going to set their sights on gas stations and Kmarts next?

The restricted licenses do not report their income every month. They do not have to report their earnings as they do not pay tax. They only pay an annual fee to operate the machines. They are restricted to slots only, and a maximum of 15 machines per location (although the average is less). The announcement on every monthly report says:

Nevada’s nonrestricted gaming licensees reported a total “gaming win” of $877,412,366 for the month of January 2011.

Most of the chains have a mixture of restricted and non-restricted licenses.

Dotty's has 14 non-restricted licenses, and over 50 restricted ones. They have 10 licenses at the Kmarts all of which are restricted and all of which are non-smoking.

My guess is the 2000 locations with restricted licenses have 20,000 slot machines which probably bring in $2 million per day in a state with roughly 2 million adults. The non-restricted licenses vary month to month, but in Jan 2011 they made $28 million per day.

Out of the non-restricted licenses there are roughly 200 that make less than $1 million per year in gaming, and have no reporting requirements about there non-gaming operations. Roughly half of these are race and sports book. Many hotels have a separate licenses for race and sports, and frequently subcontract out that portion of their business. In only six cases did the separate race and sports books go over $1 million.

>A citizen group calling themselves Las Vegas Watch is lining up against Dotty's and have collected more than 1,000 signatures.
>They claim Dotty's violated residential casino laws.
NewsItem from 8NewsNow.

Anyone want to guess as to links between this "grass roots community group" and the owners of various locals casinos. I bet you will find that the grass roots group is really a cash roots group.

Dotty's lawyer appears to have taken the position that the law deems any gambling to be incidental if the place holds a tavern license this would mean that any inquiry into actual finances is irrelevant.

Quote: FleaStiff

>A citizen group calling themselves Las Vegas Watch is lining up against Dotty's and have collected more than 1,000 signatures.
>They claim Dotty's violated residential casino laws.
NewsItem from 8NewsNow.

Anyone want to guess as to links between this "grass roots community group" and the owners of various locals casinos. I bet you will find that the grass roots group is really a cash roots group.

Dotty's lawyer appears to have taken the position that the law deems any gambling to be incidental if the place holds a tavern license.

The Dotty’s formula is about the same owner, but a different state. The complaints in Oregon seem to be of the same type. His Dotty's cafe's seem to have hijacked the intention that video poker should be "incidental" to the real business.

Lots of overlays in these little pubs.

I'm surprised he doesn't have more competitors in Oregon.

It seems to be a formula that works anywhere: mini slot parlors that are "incidental" to some lawful purpose.

These seem to be intensely local operations.

Quote: JIMMYFOCKER

Lots of overlays in these little pubs.

Overlays???

Interesting that you bring up Michigan. Smoking is a big part of it. Since smoking is illegal in bars, restaurtants, and public places, people will go into the casino to have a cigarette with their beer. Of course, people who drink and smoke have a propensity to gamble, so they will gamble while they are there too. Since drinks are not free and cannot be comped in Michgan (for the most part), the casino makes sizable revenue from liquor, as well as the slot machine hold. (Those bartop VP paytables are not the greatest, and forgot about optimal strategy).

It is a huge profit center for the casino -- any casino bar in the "Big 3" will have 95-97% of the people smoking and playing the bartop games. Some will just sit and a slot machine and order drinks and cigarettes from the "tray lizard." HUGE interest for the casinos to retain that smoking/drinking monopoly. Even more than Nevada (less competition).

Michigan is just below Nevada in percentage of smokers.
I think that as long as smoking is legal, and 43 million people, smoke, then there should be a place where they can do it in public. Many people can't or won't smoke in their homes. It is often difficult to find an indoor location within a few miles of their house to smoke.

Except for the smoke smell, Dotty's are very clean. The idea that this chain would somehow be better if they replaced their slant top slots with bar top slots is ridiculous.

If your idea of fun is to go sit in a reclining chair in your Aunt Ida's smoke filled living room, grab a beer and a cold sandwich, and play slot machines, I don't see the harm.

% smoker high	to low
Kentucky	South Dakota
West Virginia	Wisconsin
Oklahoma	Montana
Missouri	New Hampshire
Tennessee	Texas
Indiana	Florida
Mississippi	Georgia
Ohio	Idaho
North Carolina	Delaware
Louisiana	New York
Alabama	Colorado
Arkansas	Virginia
Alaska	Kansas
Wyoming	Vermont
South Carolina	District of Columbia
Nevada	New Jersey
Michigan	Maryland
North Dakota	Hawaii
Pennsylvania	Rhode Island
New Mexico	Oregon
Illinois	Washington
Maine	Minnesota
Nebraska	Massachusetts
Arizona	Connecticut
Iowa	California
new column	Utah

New Ordinance.
Some changes, some time allowed, some grandfathering, alot of posturing by attorneys.
From the las vegas sun:
The ordinance requires new taverns to be at least 2,000 feet apart, have a minimum of 2,500 square feet of space open to the public, a bar with at least eight slot machines built in, a kitchen, and a restaurant with at least 25 seats that serves food for at least 12 hours a day.
... existing taverns that don’t have a bar with machines to add one within two years. Existing establishments don’t have to add a restaurant or meet the other requirements.
existing taverns that are more than 20 years old to be grandfathered.
But the changes essentially end Dotty’s business model of small establishments that only serve basic food and drinks.
...Collins also said that requiring a tavern to include a restaurant after the Nevada Clean Air Act banned smoking from such establishments would essentially put them out of business.
......................................................................................
Suppose the kitchen is "open" during dead hours so smoking is permitted twelve hours a day... during the most popular hours?
25 seats at tiny tables? Small seats?
Or use 'tables' that are really glass topped slot machines?

Vegas Sun article about ordinance change with photos of a Dotty's.

Quote: Sun

The ordinance requires new taverns to be at least 2,000 feet apart, have a minimum of 2,500 square feet of space open to the public, a bar with at least eight slot machines built in, a kitchen, and a restaurant with at least 25 seats that serves food for at least 12 hours a day.The changes also require existing taverns that don’t have a bar with machines to add one within two years. Existing establishments don’t have to add a restaurant or meet the other requirements.

While the requirements seem perfectly reasonable, it bothers me that they would be so cavalier about making them retroactive to the last 20 years. The Dotty chain has 43 locations in Clark county, each of which employs at least 6 people. While the corporation may make upgrades to some crucial locations, the majority will close. A few other businesses like Jackpot Joanie's will probably have to close as well.



The fact that the proposed ordnance was altered a few times to get support from the three largest organizations speaks of cronyism. They are: United Coin, Herbst Gaming, and Golden Gaming.

The only thing made retroactive is the bartop machines within two years.

As with many ordinances, it really translates to: if you want to have slot machines you have to be one of the guys whose lawyers and lobbyists have had us force Dotty out of business or to retrofit bartop machines into places that don't even have bartops.

Jackpot Joanie's is probably one of those Dotty Look Alikes that tried to do the same Dotty like set up at perhaps a more upscale note.

Quote: FleaStiff

Jackpot Joanie's is probably one of those Dotty Look Alikes that tried to do the same Dotty like set up at perhaps a more upscale note.

Dotty's are not crappy looking. I think that Jackpot Joanie's is more of a clone than anything else.

Some of the traditional taverns, like Ultra New Town Tavern are really hole in the walls.