Discussion about the Suspension List
And how many times could that go on? Then finally Hawking is nuked.
How much sense would that make?
Just asking any of the sensible people.
(if Hawking is not a good example pick someone else of some merit to you).
Quote: rxwineSo, if the real Stephen Hawking started posting here, and someone made lots of borderline comments to annoy Hawking, but never technically violated the rules, and Hawking lost his cool and cussed them out, you would ban Hawking?
I would. I mean, I banned Mosca for this exact reason, and Mosca sure has merit in my opinion.
Quote: rxwineAnd how many times could that go on? Then finally Hawking is nuked.
As always, it depends. Remember s2dbaker? Unfortunately, because of his most recent postings, all I remember him as is the guy who taunted the pro-gun crowd by repeatedly posting news threads about accidental shootings and making snide remarks about gun culture. Rarely was there an argument or well-thought debate. It was just, I dunno, it felt like taunting. There wasn't substance to it. Now, I'm likely the biggest ammosexual here, and I know there are many other pro-gun, pro-liberty folks around as well. I didn't ban S2 for being disruptive to me or these other people. I just ignored him, and many of the others appeared to follow suit. That's how it should be.
But it just depends. There's so much to consider when contemplating action. Some people purposely attempt to create chaos, others are just staunch with an unpopular opinion. How do you tell? Wait, observe, and try your best. You'll win some, you'll lose some, and life goes on.
Quote: rxwineHow much sense would that make?
Tons. It's not perfect and is not always right. But to me, it's the only way that makes any sense at all.
I'm almost certain you lost that title to me the day I joined.
Quote: René Descartes' autistic cousinExaspero ergo sum.
I make a lot of noise to force anonymous strangers pay attention to me, therefore I am.
I find an enormous amount of value in your postings, and I would encourage you to continue your membership. All FWIW; you responded positively to others' encouragement after I'd thought you'd made up your mind, so I'm adding my vote on it.
Quote: beachbumbabsKewlj,
I find an enormous amount of value in your postings
+1... but I understand you need to make up your own mind on what you do with your time.
I'll miss you if you go.
Quote: 1BBLeaving one site does not necessarily mean disappearing.
Yes, but... the questions that come up on the other sites tend to be somewhat different than the questions that come up here.
I'd miss the contributions to the discussions that happen here, even if I still get glimpses of wisdom elsewhere.
Quote: FaceI would. I mean, I banned Mosca for this exact reason, and Mosca sure has merit in my opinion.
Wow. Just got compared favorably with Stephen Hawking. I hope the human race sees it the same way.
(On the other hand, I have now admitted to reading the Discussion About the Suspension List thread. So there's that against me.)
I don't see a reason to leave over this. It seems like a tab bit of an overreaction. It's had to think that this one situation would be the sole reason for someone to leave.Quote: DeucekiesIt'll definitely be our loss if you leave, Kewlj. Hope you reconsider. I love reading your reports.
It's hard to be 100% fair in all situations. I can't imagine Mike reads evry post on here and knows who's been naughty and whos been nice.
Its obvious his comments were directed at one person (rightfully so).
Quote: AxelWolfI don't see a reason to leave over this. It seems like a tab bit of an overreaction. It's had to think that this one situation would be the sole reason for someone to leave.
It's hard to be 100% fair in all situations. I can't imagine Mike reads evry post on here and knows who's been naughty and whos been nice.
Its obvious his comments were directed at one person (rightfully so).
Don't think it's just one situation. I believe this was just the tipping point.
I guess, but what's so horrible that one has to announce leaving or whatever? Unless you have been personally affected or something significant had happened if you're upset with somthing just don't post.Quote: RSDon't think it's just one situation. I believe this was just the tipping point.
Perhaps he isn't coming back. That would be too bad. That's a sharp guy.
It was a justified suspension by the letter of the rules although IMO a bit thin. When I originally saw it I thought perhaps it was an equally thin attempt at humor (it was ironic), or knowing that he doesn't like Valentine's day maybe Wiz was a little more trigger happy if he thought he was on the way to the doghouse. Mike did PM me a day or two after with his thoughts, which was thoughtful and not really necessary (his site, his call.)
A few days off from posting did give me the opportunity to evaluate what I benefit from the Wizard sites and how much of that is from active participation. I have certainly personally benefited from learning things like half point parlay cards and super bowl props. WoO is also an excellent resource for using the data on variance and touching up on basic strategies to determine bet sizes for games that I play occasionally but not regularly where there isn't a whole lot of data published elsewhere and I'm usually not usually playing basic. I definitely am thankful to Mike for theses things. There's also occasionally a concept or something of value I gain from other posters, and have learned a few things from this and other forums that I can apply.
That being said, all those things I could have benefitted from without active participation. What do I benefit from active participation? Over the last few months it has really been just to be aggravated, which has manifested itself in my posting becoming generally snappy and a bit negative, kind of lowering myself to the level of those who aggravate me. I'll still be here, but will probably be mostly lurking or posting more infrequently. I just don't want people to get the idea that if I'm here less often that it's because I'm upset with the suspension or with the mods. I'm not. I've been able to benefit from the sites and apply some things I've learned from the Wizard, and I also think he's a generally good guy.
was suspended for 7 days and his time
was up 2 days ago. Why is his name
still in red? I'm just sayin..
Quote: EvenBobGee, I hate to bring this up, but Mickey
was suspended for 7 days and his time
was up 2 days ago. Why is his name
still in red? I'm just sayin..
This happens so often that it is almost the norm here. Reinstating suspended members doesn't seem to be a priority. Not a complaint, just an observation.
Quote: FaceFixed. Welcome back, MC.
Thanks, Face. I've come to the cross track on WoV. I think I'm gonna have to catch out. I can see the handwriting on the wall. I think I'm going to have to pull myself down from WoV. This is no one's fault but my own. The way I see it I have 3 options:
1. Quit drinking
2. Quit WoV
3. Quit WoV but make occasional vists for a couple of weeks at a time....mainly when I'm on the road and not drinking.
Quitting drinking is easy. I've done it a thousand times. I quit drinking every month when I go on roadtrips. Quitting WoV is hard. I've made a lot of friends here, from the Wizard on down. I like the third option. I can start dragging my laptop along on the roadtrips. But when I get home I'm going to have to take steps to insure that I don't make anymore drunk posts on WoV.
I'll tell you a little secret I've never told anyone before. I posted for years on vpFREE. Only in the early days did they see any drunk posts. That's because the administrator moderated me. It worked great. None of my posts went up on the site until a moderator read and approved it. And it only took a couple of times of him sending me back my drunk posts for my drunk diabolical mind to get the message. What in the hell is the use of making a drunken outburst if no one is going to read it? So I stopped making drunk posts altogether. That administrator made me look damn good. I don't have that protection here.
I can promise, promise, promise when I'm sober not to make anymore drunk posts. But I know my drunk ass pretty good. I'll never live up to it and the suspensions will continue. To me the definition of insanity is apologizing after every drunk and expecting the people to keep accepting my apologies. So I'm gonna pull the plug on myself in due course.
Quote: mickeycrimmOnly in the early days did they see any drunk posts. That's because the administrator moderated me. It worked great. None of my posts went up on the site until a moderator read and approved it.
Man, if there was a feature like the old Gmail Goggles...
This could probably be something like "If (time) is in per-user-defined blackout period, and submitted post contains (more than certain percent typos/misspellings) or (n or more words from the "provocative words" list), then make user wait (5,10,15...) minutes before they can click "post"." (I seem to remember this sort of thing from the old Slashdot flood prevention, and some of the *chans.)
Or, a different approach, a short-term self-exclusion, that resets the user's password now, and sends them the password-reset email in 8 (12, 24...) hours.
Although if the powers that be are taking feature requests, perhaps something to automatically unlock accounts after the suspension period has elapsed is more useful. (Or not.)
Quote: DieterMan, if there was a feature like the old Gmail Goggles...
This could probably be something like "If (time) is in per-user-defined blackout period, and submitted post contains (more than certain percent typos/misspellings) or (n or more words from the "provocative words" list), then make user wait (5,10,15...) minutes before they can click "post"." (I seem to remember this sort of thing from the old Slashdot flood prevention, and some of the *chans.)
Or, a different approach, a short-term self-exclusion, that resets the user's password now, and sends them the password-reset email in 8 (12, 24...) hours.
Although if the powers that be are taking feature requests, perhaps something to automatically unlock accounts after the suspension period has elapsed is more useful. (Or not.)
AxelWolf's gonna have a tough time making any posts if he can't have any typos or misspellings.
Personally, I hope you stick around.
Quote: mickeycrimm
I'll tell you a little secret I've never told anyone before. I posted for years on vpFREE. Only in the early days did they see any drunk posts. That's because the administrator moderated me. It worked great. None of my posts went up on the site until a moderator read and approved it. And it only took a couple of times of him sending me back my drunk posts for my drunk diabolical mind to get the message. What in the hell is the use of making a drunken outburst if no one is going to read it? So I stopped making drunk posts altogether. That administrator made me look damn good. I don't have that protection here.
I hope Wizard and the moderators read this, because it's actually a great idea. I post at another message board which has this feature, and it's used to great success over there. New members are automatically moderated to ensure they're not a sockpuppet or a spambot, and they're let off moderation after a few posts or so. Members who have a history of acting up for whatever reason can be placed back on moderation as well. And some users who are chronic sockpuppet makers are simply allowed to stay on as moderated users (with little-to-none of their posts ever being approved) to lessen the chance of them making future accounts.
I don't know if this message board software has that feature, but it'd be worth looking into.
Quote: DeucekiesI hope Wizard and the moderators read this, because it's actually a great idea....
That is what they do at the forum at unicyclist.com. I'm not saying I don't like the idea but I'm sure it would be a major effort to program, not to mention all the message screening. Furthermore, most offenders are not newcomers but regulars with hundreds or thousands of posts.
Quote: WizardThat is what they do at the forum at unicyclist.com. I'm not saying I don't like the idea but I'm sure it would be a major effort to program, not to mention all the message screening. Furthermore, most offenders are not newcomers but regulars with hundreds or thousands of posts.
Wow! That forum has over 108,000 members!
Quote: WizardThat is what they do at the forum at unicyclist.com. I'm not saying I don't like the idea but I'm sure it would be a major effort to program, not to mention all the message screening. Furthermore, most offenders are not newcomers but regulars with hundreds or thousands of posts.
What software is used for this message board? Is it homegrown? If it's one of the many message board services offered (like phpBB or Invision), the feature might already be there and ready to use. You, as the moderating team, would be able to decide just how much you wanted to use the feature, using it on all newcomers or reserving it for the baddest of bad apples.
I think it's extremely obvious when it's a drunk post and when it's not. It seems to me that mickey's in a situation where we could help keep him here without having to reprogram the board (assuming there's not a dormant feature already attached for the purpose). I would propose that, for mickey's case only and with his pre-approval, and in order to retain the level of decorum the Wizard prefers, any moderator seeing an obvious drunk post could simply delete it (along with the content in any quotes of it in subsequent posts). This would provide the pre-posting moderation he suggests he would prefer in the long run, while allowing him to continue to be who he is.
It's a matter of 30 seconds to provide him a PM record if he wants it via paste, then delete the post. Less if he doesn't want the record.
How about it?
Quote: beachbumbabsWell, there's been times when mickey's been the beneficiary of strategic deletions of obvious drunk posts; not many, as the Wizard has a different viewpoint on free speech and people being responsible for what they post. So mickey's had to serve several suspensions generated by drunk posts, and I know he's gone back and killed a few others he thought better of the next day.
I think it's extremely obvious when it's a drunk post and when it's not. It seems to me that mickey's in a situation where we could help keep him here without having to reprogram the board (assuming there's not a dormant feature already attached for the purpose). I would propose that, for mickey's case only and with his pre-approval, and in order to retain the level of decorum the Wizard prefers, any moderator seeing an obvious drunk post could simply delete it (along with the content in any quotes of it in subsequent posts). This would provide the pre-posting moderation he suggests he would prefer in the long run, while allowing him to continue to be who he is.
It's a matter of 30 seconds to provide him a PM record if he wants it via paste, then delete the post. Less if he doesn't want the record.
I'm all up for that, Babs. Thanks. And you don't need to return the post. I hate reading them when I'm sober. It's embarrassing. Just hit the delete button. Hopefully, Mike will approve this.
How about it?
Or making a dedicated drunk posting sub-forum.
or get him a breathalyzer
Quote: beachbumbabsWell, there's been times when mickey's been the beneficiary of strategic deletions of obvious drunk posts; not many, as the Wizard has a different viewpoint on free speech and people being responsible for what they post. So mickey's had to serve several suspensions generated by drunk posts, and I know he's gone back and killed a few others he thought better of the next day.
I think it's extremely obvious when it's a drunk post and when it's not. It seems to me that mickey's in a situation where we could help keep him here without having to reprogram the board (assuming there's not a dormant feature already attached for the purpose). I would propose that, for mickey's case only and with his pre-approval, and in order to retain the level of decorum the Wizard prefers, any moderator seeing an obvious drunk post could simply delete it (along with the content in any quotes of it in subsequent posts). This would provide the pre-posting moderation he suggests he would prefer in the long run, while allowing him to continue to be who he is.
It's a matter of 30 seconds to provide him a PM record if he wants it via paste, then delete the post. Less if he doesn't want the record.
How about it?
I don't know what happened with my first response. Somehow my text got deleted. But I'm all up for that, Babs. Thanks. And you don't need to return the post. I hate reading them when I'm sober. It's embarrassing. Just hit the delete button. Hopefully, Mike will approve this.
Quote: beachbumbabs
How about it?
I'd not mind a "PM pre-post" of his or any other members who want assurance that a post is OK. However, and just thinking out loud here, any sort of "post-post" adjustment to clean up MC's profanity makes any other action against profanity largely impossible. And with profanity based bans being not entirely rare, we will have an issue in the future. I can hear it now... "Oh, you clean up MC's, but I get a ban". You know that argument is coming, and it's one we'd have to answer to.
Just my thoughts on society in general and in this situation in particular. Most of those who ended up being banned here had to know it was coming. Should anyone in that situation in the future also have the same opportunity?
If he stays or goes, Mickey will continue to do fine, he shows that everyday. I just hope he stays for the same selfish reasons most of us have, we enjoy his posts and learn from them.
Quote: FaceI'd not mind a "PM pre-post" of his or any other members who want assurance that a post is OK. However, and just thinking out loud here, any sort of "post-post" adjustment to clean up MC's profanity makes any other action against profanity largely impossible. And with profanity based bans being not entirely rare, we will have an issue in the future. I can hear it now... "Oh, you clean up MC's, but I get a ban". You know that argument is coming, and it's one we'd have to answer to.
Right. What incentive would anyone have to post sober?
Babs you are not only a fine moderator but it appears you will make a good enabler as well.
Quote: beachbumbabsI would propose that, for mickey's case only and with his pre-approval, and in order to retain the level of decorum the Wizard prefers, any moderator seeing an obvious drunk post could simply delete it (along with the content in any quotes of it in subsequent posts). ... How about it?
I oppose this. As you wrote, I believe in personal responsibility and owning your own posts. Maintaining a civil level of decorum takes a back seat to freedom of speech and equal treatment.
My advice to Mickey is to find a less moderated forum for his drunken musings and save the sober ones for here.
Quote: MrVMickey could post at an unmoderated gambling board such as GG, and those who wish could read his posts there.
He would not be able to join, no one else can either.
Perhaps there's a delay program he can get for his personal computer. I know they have a drunk text app.
It's obvious that was going to be shot down, but even if it wasn't, what would you do if someone quoted him?Quote: beachbumbabsWell, there's been times when mickey's been the beneficiary of strategic deletions of obvious drunk posts; not many, as the Wizard has a different viewpoint on free speech and people being responsible for what they post. So mickey's had to serve several suspensions generated by drunk posts, and I know he's gone back and killed a few others he thought better of the next day.
I think it's extremely obvious when it's a drunk post and when it's not. It seems to me that mickey's in a situation where we could help keep him here without having to reprogram the board (assuming there's not a dormant feature already attached for the purpose). I would propose that, for mickey's case only and with his pre-approval, and in order to retain the level of decorum the Wizard prefers, any moderator seeing an obvious drunk post could simply delete it (along with the content in any quotes of it in subsequent posts). This would provide the pre-posting moderation he suggests he would prefer in the long run, while allowing him to continue to be who he is.
It's a matter of 30 seconds to provide him a PM record if he wants it via paste, then delete the post. Less if he doesn't want the record.
How about it?
Id just make it -EV for him to make drunken posts. Anytime he gets suspended, make him pay $10 per day. Then send the money to Rob Singer, I have a feeling he might be more careful.
He wouldn't feel it if he is drunk as a skunk.Quote: GreasyjohnHow about a shock collar?
Quote: AxelWolfIt's obvious that was going to be shot down, but even if it wasn't, what would you do if someone quoted him?
Id just make it -EV for him to make drunken posts. Anytime he gets suspended, make him pay $10 per day. Then send the money to Rob Singer, I have a feeling he might be more careful.
It's my opinion that there's always more than one way to skin a cat. Still looking for an answer.
Part of what I said was that I'd delete the content from any responding posts if he got quoted.
I think there's a difference from being an enabler and looking at an established problem for a new perspective that might lead to a workable solution. Mickey's good sense goes away when he drinks. He drinks by choice as part of who he is. And Mickey's a guy that you take or leave; you don't change him.
Wizard is offended by profanity and personal insults on here. It's his standard of moderation that we follow, and that standard has been reaffirmed by the new owners. So Mickey is as beholden to the rules as everyone else is.
I value Mickey (and I think a lot of other people do, too), and I accept him for who he is, so when he goes off the rails, there should be a way, short of chasing him out of here, to make it work. If the pre-posting moderation tool is available, that would be the preferred route; private, respectful, and a 1-click "ok" to post per missive. Somebody was willing to spend the owners' money to pay the programmer to add it. I'm looking for a way to do it manually, not ask JB or whomever to program it. It wouldn't work for him to PM mods with everything he's writing, because of the time lag and who knows what thread or who he might be responding to that way? So I don't see that working.
So, I don't know, since the Wizard doesn't want to do it the way I suggested. But I'd be interested in hearing other possible answers.
If you make a post when you're drunk,
read it 3 times before you post it. If
by then you still can't tell if it's
offensive or not, delete it.
Another way is to take your mouse
or laptop and lock it in your car
when you drink. That way you won't
be tempted.
Or you can come to my house and
we'll drink together and tell each
other tales till we pass out.
Quote: EvenBobThere are a couple ways to handle this.
If you make a post when you're drunk,
read it 3 times before you post it. If
by then you still can't tell if it's
offensive or not, delete it.
Another way is to take your mouse
or laptop and lock it in your car
when you drink. That way you won't
be tempted.
Or you can come to my house and
we'll drink together and tell each
other tales till we pass out.
You and Mickey?
Editing someones post unless its giving somebodys private information or something sensitive without there permission might cause a problem. Obviously if I posted naked pictures of you along with your phone number, you should delete the phone number without permission.Quote: beachbumbabsIt's my opinion that there's always more than one way to skin a cat. Still looking for an answer.
Part of what I said was that I'd delete the content from any responding posts if he got quoted.
I think there's a difference from being an enabler and looking at an established problem for a new perspective that might lead to a workable solution. Mickey's good sense goes away when he drinks. He drinks by choice as part of who he is. And Mickey's a guy that you take or leave; you don't change him.
Wizard is offended by profanity and personal insults on here. It's his standard of moderation that we follow, and that standard has been reaffirmed by the new owners. So Mickey is as beholden to the rules as everyone else is.
I value Mickey (and I think a lot of other people do, too), and I accept him for who he is, so when he goes off the rails, there should be a way, short of chasing him out of here, to make it work. If the pre-posting moderation tool is available, that would be the preferred route; private, respectful, and a 1-click "ok" to post per missive. Somebody was willing to spend the owners' money to pay the programmer to add it. I'm looking for a way to do it manually, not ask JB or whomever to program it. It wouldn't work for him to PM mods with everything he's writing, because of the time lag and who knows what thread or who he might be responding to that way? So I don't see that working.
So, I don't know, since the Wizard doesn't want to do it the way I suggested. But I'd be interested in hearing other possible answers.
I offered a solution, I wasn't joking. Get him to agree to pay $10 for every day he is suspended. Obviously i was joking about sending it to RS however you could send it to a charity. If he is serious about wanting to cool it with the drunken posts he shouldn't have a problem with agreeing. Personally I don't care if he gets a drunk pass, I find it funny. However someone who gets the brunt of his drunk posts might feel a bit different.
I think your looking for a solution to the problem when you shouldn't be. The real solution is on him, just don't log on or post when drunk.
Quote: beachbumbabsIt's my opinion that there's always more than one way to skin a cat. Still looking for an answer.
Part of what I said was that I'd delete the content from any responding posts if he got quoted.
I think there's a difference from being an enabler and looking at an established problem for a new perspective that might lead to a workable solution. Mickey's good sense goes away when he drinks. He drinks by choice as part of who he is. And Mickey's a guy that you take or leave; you don't change him.
Wizard is offended by profanity and personal insults on here. It's his standard of moderation that we follow, and that standard has been reaffirmed by the new owners. So Mickey is as beholden to the rules as everyone else is.
I value Mickey (and I think a lot of other people do, too), and I accept him for who he is, so when he goes off the rails, there should be a way, short of chasing him out of here, to make it work. If the pre-posting moderation tool is available, that would be the preferred route; private, respectful, and a 1-click "ok" to post per missive. Somebody was willing to spend the owners' money to pay the programmer to add it. I'm looking for a way to do it manually, not ask JB or whomever to program it. It wouldn't work for him to PM mods with everything he's writing, because of the time lag and who knows what thread or who he might be responding to that way? So I don't see that working.
So, I don't know, since the Wizard doesn't want to do it the way I suggested. But I'd be interested in hearing other possible answers.
I have an answer. MC needs to be responsible for his own posts and being drunk is not an excuse. It's not an excuse when you drive, it's not an excuse if you commit a crime and it shouldn't be an excuse when you break the rules of a forum. He's not a child. He needs to be responsible for his own actions, not have people deleting posts for him and babying him.
ZCore13
Quote: beachbumbabs
So, I don't know, since the Wizard doesn't want to do it the way I suggested. But I'd be interested in hearing other possible answers.
It would not be difficult, in theory, to do what you suggested and do so manually. Observe...
1. MC wants to post but is drunk. He hits "reply" and types one word - "Pending". He then hits "post", generating the post and saving the slot.
2. MC then goes to PM. "Recipient" is the mod of his choice, "Subject" is the thread he's posting in, and the "Body" would be the post he wants to create for the thread.
3. Once he's written the post in the PM, he sends the PM to the mod. He can choose how he wants this done. It can be an "all or nothing" where if it fails, it's erased with no further action. He could give the mod "censoring" permission to do away with what's not allowed but leave the post intact. He could give the mod editing permission to change stuff to fit the rules (changes denoted in bold, of course).
4. Once deemed acceptable, the mod "Edits" the post in which MC created that says only "Pending" and then copy/pastes in the clean and filtered post.
No money, no programing. Easy peasy.
