Discussion II about the Suspension List

Quote: beachbumbabs

Been mulling this for an hour or so. Not done thinking about it on so little sleep.

The saddest part is seeing people I know, liked and respected prove they're every rotten thing Joe said about them that they found so insulting. He doesn't know the whole truth about them, but he wasn't wrong. I thought I knew them better.

Not sure what's to mull over. A large proportion of his posts were quite obviously meant to insult and demean and are just obviously trolling. Either that's against the rules or it's not. His political beliefs (many of which I happen to share) are completely irrelevant. He was exactly the same with his previous screen name before he was nuked nearly 6 years ago.

The only downside to any nuking here is that he will infest DT more than he already has. He's currently serving his first suspension there so will probably take a couple of months to reach the nuke level. :(

No, Joe is nuked. He proved he could understand his transgression of a civil disagreement, discourse reasonably on the issues, and be civil if he wanted while doing it. I posted my positive comments about both of them, which ended the double nuke option for me. Then he went back to trolling the forum while I tried to get some sleep. I got woken up for a several hours conversation after just a little sleep,.then came back to his vomit . He was gone right then; mission understood my intent correctly. Thanks, and no tears shed from anyone here.

The question for me was the other people here, what their various remarks said about themselves in championing values I oppose. DJT is still a fraud, a bully, and completely repugnant to me as President; he's only reinforced my worst fears about what he's hoping to do to this country for his own benefit since Nov 8. I hit that wall yesterday; doesn't matter who or why, it's a collective thing.

I have hung in here through some of the nastiest dung flung at me anyone could imagine because I care about the people here. Many of you know some of it, whether you care or agree or not. I'm not interested in explaining to those who don't.

My job assignment, from the beginning, has been to be the petty offense disciplinarian, the "angry nun with the ruler". I would rather be homecoming queen, frankly. I do not enjoy telling adults to behave like one. I think people should know for themselves. Personal responsibility. Right, Face?

But the election, and strongly worded opposition arguments full of invective and spite, have changed my level of willingness to put up with the ration of crap I have gotten personally for doing this after almost 3 years volunteering. So I needed to decide if I wanted to continue being here at all.

Slept on it. Still here. Carry on.

I think Zuga, Mike, and company owe me the price of a trip to Vegas, though. (Semi-joke)

Quote: RonC

As to the second part of your post, WHAT? I don't see where anyone as actually proven to be so bad as to be everything that Joe said about them.

Well, he said that they should be sent to gas chambers and that he would take great pleasure in his political foes getting cancer. So, I guess they're pretty bad.

People who don't support the Clintons' mass murdering of brown people should obviously be mass murdered themselves for being so racist. Why is that so hard to grasp?

BBB, I agree the election proves we are about to head into uncharted waters, and that certainly is grounds for concern, most especially if you are a liberal.

Out here in hipster-laden Portland the libs are going nuts, protesting, whining and pulling their hair out.

I have been listening to a local, listener supported FM station, KBOO, for months now, and am increasingly enthralled by the commentary there on this issue: very articulate, very fervent, yet I fear very hopeless.

(NPR is also a good source of commentary on this and related socio-political hot button issues)

A collective gnashing of teeth will not dispel the boogeyman: he now walks among us.

I suggest that you and others check out the discourse on KBOO by live stream: see KBOO stream

We find our entertainment and our information where we can.

Good jazz and other forms of music and commentary can be found there as well: worth exploring.

Barb, here's a link to a song that KBOO plays, uncensored, on the late night hip hop program: FDT

(music stars at about 1:25, after intro)

Quote: MrV

Out here in hipster-laden Portland the libs are going nuts, protesting, whining and pulling their hair out.

I'm not. Maybe I'm not a liberal. :)

Quote:

We find our entertainment and our information where we can.
Good jazz and other forms of music and commentary can be found there as well: worth exploring. (music stars at about 1:06, after intro)
Barb, here's a link to a song that KBOO plays, uncensored, on the late night hip hop program: FDT

There's lots of great jazz in Portland. Do you play?
And the rapper in that hip hop track is dragging. That always bugs me, especially when the chorus starts up in time and cuts off the rapper's last few words (e.g., at 2:21). Maybe it's part of the style he was going for but I prefer my rhythms less temporally fluid, at least at the end of a phrase.

Quote: beachbumbabs

The question for me was the other people here, what their various remarks said about themselves in championing values I oppose. DJT is still a fraud, a bully, and completely repugnant to me as President; he's only reinforced my worst fears about what he's hoping to do to this country for his own benefit since Nov 8. I hit that wall yesterday; doesn't matter who or why, it's a collective thing

We've been over time and time again why DJT was a bad candidate. I didn't support him from the beginning; I was hoping an actual conservative would win. I get how everyone says that you can't possibly compare HRC to DJT but that is what ended up happening. HRC represented everything a huge number of people did not want in a President--mainly, more of the same policies which both parties have tossed at us for years, fixing nothing. AMS will say I am "doing another both sides" thing, but BOTH SIDES have failed the people.

You can't fix something just by saying you fixed it, you have to sell your fix continually and it has to be a real fix. For example, Obamacare was a "fix" but it had lots of nasty little things going on that have not been addressed and neither the current President or HRC could "sell" how good it was or how they would fix the issues. In the meantime, these issues have been out there since the beginning. The bill started on a horrible note--passed at night with the Speaker of the House saying that the bill had to be passed so that we could find out what was in it. Not only did you start off with a huge group of people against the bill, you also basically said "FU" to the supposed transparency that was promised.

DJT was a bad candidate. He is not quite as bad as many have painted him, but he should not be President-elect. HRC underestimated him and she was a horrible candidate. It doesn't have anything to do with qualifications--Romney or McCain would be President--it has to do with SELLING yourself as a candidate. You can be highly qualified and a horrible candidate; you just have a much higher chance of losing... Again, lessons learned from Gore, Romney, McCain, etc.

The only way to stop someone like DJT--or worse--from getting as far as he did is for the people we elect to actually act like they give a damn about us. Professional politicians, like Hillary, don't have the best interests of the people before their own. They have turned themselves into a ruling class, and the people went along with it. Trump sold a message of not being part of the ruling class--and he won.

Bill Nelson has been in political office for most of the more than 40 years since I saw him speak in Melbourne at a Boy Scout convention. He managed to find a way on to the space shuttle. People should not be in politics that long. It makes their reality much different than ours.

J-bot nuked? Now who am I supposed to block? ;)

Seriously though, he was the only poster I have ever felt the need to block. His nastiness far outweighed any substantive contributions he made. I will often seek out opposing viewpoints to evaluate my own, but his posts were too much.

Babs -- I'm glad you made the choice to continue what you are doing here; many of us here appreciate what you do. And, yes, if it's your job to break up crap fights, unfortunately you are bound to get some on you eventually. But you are doing your part to keep it nice and clean for the rest of us, and I appreciate that; especially since (I assume) your compensation for being a mod is about as much as mine is for being a regular member.

BTW, I'll vote for you to be WoV homecoming queen!

Quote: MathExtremist

I'm not. Maybe I'm not a liberal. :)

Quote:

We find our entertainment and our information where we can.
Good jazz and other forms of music and commentary can be found there as well: worth exploring. (music stars at about 1:06, after intro)
Barb, here's a link to a song that KBOO plays, uncensored, on the late night hip hop program: FDT

There's lots of great jazz in Portland. Do you play?
And the rapper in that hip hop track is dragging. That always bugs me, especially when the chorus starts up in time and cuts off the rapper's last few words (e.g., at 2:21). Maybe it's part of the style he was going for but I prefer my rhythms less temporally fluid, at least at the end of a phrase.

MathExtremist, the rap connoisseur ;)

Quote: Joeman

]
Babs -- I'm glad you made the choice to continue what you are doing here; many of us here appreciate what you do.

+1

Quote: RogerKint

MathExtremist, the rap connoisseur ;)

An original, fanatical, mathematical empiricist
Consummately numerate, grammatically a lyricist
Who plays a little saxophone and dabbles in philosophy
But spends most of his time considering patentability

(To the tune of "The Major General's Song". "Patentability" is really hard to work into a verse...)

I agree with a great deal of what you said, Ron. My problem specific to my last couple of posts is the mirror DJT held up to all of us and what many revealed about themselves, not so much what DJT is. I can differ greatly with political spectrum views and remain fond or respectful of them as people. There are lots of valid viewpoints, offsetting arguments, process differences.

But some of the rawest, ugliest issues that usually live under rocks were exposed to public light in an unprecedented fashion. And...people I KNOW, people I care about, have worked with, broken bread with from here, showed sides of themselves I would not have imagined existed. I finally had to acknowledge they are not who I thought they were, and reassess. It's almost a separate issue from the campaign, except it's central to the result, our national identity, and the path forward, if any.

Our national identity has changed abruptly and shockingly to a lot of us, in terms of what we expect or will accept from others sharing this country. Obviously it didn't happen overnight, but what was fringe behavior, unacceptable, is now given at least a veneer of approval by direct or indirect support of Trump. Behavior still unacceptable to a lot of Trump voters, but you wouldn't know it anymore. They have yet to repudiate it, though, and it's 3 weeks later and growing. Tough to put toothpaste back in the tube.

Quote: Aussie

The only downside to any nuking here is that he will infest DT more than he already has. He's currently serving his first suspension there so will probably take a couple of months to reach the nuke level. :(

Who is he at DT?

Quote: MathExtremist

An original, fanatical, mathematical empiricist
Consummately numerate, grammatically a lyricist
Who plays a little saxophone and dabbles in philosophy
But spends most of his time considering patentability

(To the tune of "The Major General's Song". "Patentability" is really hard to work into a verse...)

Oh snap I don't know whether to bob my head or push up my glasses (I like it). If you have a YouTube rap channel you need to share it now.

Quote: beachbumbabs

But some of the rawest, ugliest issues that usually live under rocks were exposed to public light in an unprecedented fashion. And...people I KNOW, people I care about, have worked with, broken bread with from here, showed sides of themselves I would not have imagined existed. I finally had to acknowledge they are not who I thought they were, and reassess. It's almost a separate issue from the campaign, except it's central to the result, our national identity, and the path forward, if any.

I think you'd be surprised at how different people can become when exposed to the proper stimuli. You don't think of yourself as a savage, but you could absolutely become one under the right circumstances. See the Milgram or Zimbardo psychological experiments that show what can happen to people under certain pressures.

For a lot of people, the combination of their personal financial situation and Donald Trump's candidacy was that pressure. I presume you've seen or heard about the woman who went on a public rant in the craft store?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hT5KrRGfJBI&feature=youtu.be
It's not a question of political leanings. People just shouldn't act like this in a civilized society. But for some people, it's hard to care about being civilized when their society has let them down and someone like Trump has given them a release valve for their pent-up frustration. Maybe that frustration will dissipate after being vented for a short while, much like an inflated balloon angrily buzzes around a room after being let go only to end up piled in a heap on the floor, deflated.

Or maybe that anger and vulgarity will persist. If so, I don't think Trump intends to do anything about it, and then you really will need to reassess.

This place has turned into a damn viper pit in the last few days (again). Hopefully it'll simmer down like it did about a month ago.

I am a man of peace.

Quote: MathExtremist

An original, fanatical, mathematical empiricist
Consummately numerate, grammatically a lyricist
Who plays a little saxophone and dabbles in philosophy
But spends most of his time considering patentability

Sweet!

Quote:

"Patentability" is really hard to work into a verse...

ME, how's your knowledge of classical languages? You could mention something about your 'Latin ability' there in the third line!

Quote: beachbumbabs

I agree with a great deal of what you said, Ron. My problem specific to my last couple of posts is the mirror DJT held up to all of us and what many revealed about themselves, not so much what DJT is. I can differ greatly with political spectrum views and remain fond or respectful of them as people. There are lots of valid viewpoints, offsetting arguments, process differences.

But some of the rawest, ugliest issues that usually live under rocks were exposed to public light in an unprecedented fashion. And...people I KNOW, people I care about, have worked with, broken bread with from here, showed sides of themselves I would not have imagined existed. I finally had to acknowledge they are not who I thought they were, and reassess. It's almost a separate issue from the campaign, except it's central to the result, our national identity, and the path forward, if any.

Our national identity has changed abruptly and shockingly to a lot of us, in terms of what we expect or will accept from others sharing this country. Obviously it didn't happen overnight, but what was fringe behavior, unacceptable, is now given at least a veneer of approval by direct or indirect support of Trump. Behavior still unacceptable to a lot of Trump voters, but you wouldn't know it anymore. They have yet to repudiate it, though, and it's 3 weeks later and growing. Tough to put toothpaste back in the tube.

I'm having a tough time again following what you're talking about. When you talk about "ugliness" the first thing that pops in my mind is the Trump supporters who got beat up and bloodied by attackers who were paid by the democrat machine. That was pretty ugly.

Quote: bobbartop

I'm having a tough time again following what you're talking about. When you talk about "ugliness" the first thing that pops in my mind is the Trump supporters who got beat up and bloodied by attackers who were paid by the democrat machine. That was pretty ugly.

That never happened! It is isn't on the National news, it ever happened. You should know that by now.

Quote: Joeman

Sweet!

ME, how's your knowledge of classical languages? You could mention something about your 'Latin ability' there in the third line!

Terrible, I have a bare smattering of Hebrew and I don't know Latin or Greek at all. I spent my time learning C and Lisp instead.

Want to know how to infuriate a Lisp programmer?

(print "Hello world"

Quote: Boz

That never happened! It is isn't on the National news, it ever happened. You should know that by now.

Another ugly thing, that never happened, was Donna Brazille, et al., feeding the questions to Hillary in advance. But I'm sure the orders never came from the top, that would never happen. No bias in the media. Nope, none at all.

Quote: bobbartop

Another ugly thing, that never happened, was Donna Brazille, et al., feeding the questions to Hillary in advance.

et. al.? Do you have evidence someone other than Donna Brazille fed questions to the Hillary campaign?

Quote:

But I'm sure the orders never came from the top, that would never happen.

I'm also sure the orders didn't come from the top.

Quote: ams288

et. al.? Do you have evidence someone other than Donna Brazille fed questions to the Hillary campaign?



I'm also sure the orders didn't come from the top.

Are they supposed to admit it? Donna's a good soldier, she didn't snitch.

Quote: ams288

Who is he at DT?

Should only take one guess.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Thanks, and no tears shed from anyone here.

Almost no one. I sincerely like the guy. So much so that I have been mulling all day on whether to use one of my many unused and saved up overrides, regardless of the shock and horror that would course through the rest of the membership. But as he is at DT, I suppose I can have my fun there and spare y'all my abuse of power.

But seriously,... I won't sit here and debate y'alls opinion that he was abusive, overly aggressive, insert-complaint-here. And yes, technically he shouldn't have been here at all as he was nuked back in 2011 (you'll NEVER convince me he's not mkl654321 (and credit to Aussie who publicly outed him first; I knew, I just didn't wanna scare him away=p)). And yes, I can't point blame elsewhere because it's not as if he was sweet and turned sour because of abuse; mkl's just a firecracker. Always has been, I assume he always will be.

I... I just wanted him here. In communicating with him, I see he's just bloody pissed off with the way he sees the world today. And dammit, so am I. So are many of you. Can you say you never cross some lines when your core is threatened? I know I tore the s#$% out of PaiGowDan when he touched on a civil liberties subject I opposed. And I go full retard anytime guns are mentioned and aim to destroy any counter point anyone can muster. Why? Because things like this are central to my way of life. In order to feel whole as a human, these are the things I need. Of course my response is going to be jacked to 11. I see him as the same way. Look how the APs react with posted plays, look how Babs reacts with Trump in the WH, look how Dan reacts with gaming hijinks. We ain't so different, we and he.

Now, someone may come in with a but-but-but. Save it. You're right. By any standards of our rules, even our severely stepped back, near free-for-all of the election thread, he was way, wayyy over the line. I'll not argue that. But I hope you realize that in that man that you did not like, there was knowledge. There was value. There was a voice that is part of the harmony that is you, me, and us. The more we shut each other out and silence that which we don't like to hear, the more we must rely on broad strokes, the kind that paint us all as LEFT or RIGHT, as BLACK or WHITE, as FRIEND or FOE. We begin to stray from specifics like "I can't stand that RIGHTY Bannon and his hateful ways" to "I hate the hate on the RIGHT" to "I hate the RIGHT", and not only does that needlessly offend those who could be your friend or even your ally, it takes all of YOUR power, as it is no longer focused on the specific wrong you target.

I've always said I could find the good in Hitler, and I have. I can say I hold over a quarter, well over a quarter, of the 25pt manifesto of the NSDAP (Nazi Party), and I do. You gimme Mein Kampf and a month and I'll come back with 40 pages of inspirational, self-helpy awesomeness. It ain't no different than a cow. At a glance, no value. Maybe even negative; they eat a ton, s#$% everywhere, they're dumb and prone to rage, don't listen, can't be trained. You put a little work into her and it gets worse. You ever been inside a cow? It's wet and humid and smells like Satan's latrine. But if you keep working, you can take this huge, dumb, evil pile of resource sapping hate, that became a huge, wet, stinking pile of offal, and manage to peel off some pretty delectable sections that could greatly improve your standing at that moment. That's how I feel whenever I shut off my insta-flight about liberalism/socialism and just listen. The package might be s#$%, but with little effort, I see the gold to be found. Switch liberalism with conservatism, fascism, voluntarism, authoritarism, whatever... each has tasty bits inside. Perhaps if we could stop fighting, stop believing we're on opposing teams, stop thinking we're the boss because we got stars upon ours and they've none upon thars, we can find ways to mingle and mix and take the best from each, instead of shunning it out of hand because it's against your "team".

I dunno. Feels good to opine again.

Quote: AZDuffman

Should only take one guess.

That's what I thought too.

For the record though he is stinkingliberal.

Quote: MathExtremist

There's lots of great jazz in Portland. Do you play?

No, I was traumatized in that regard in elementary school by a cruel violin teacher.

My grandfather not only played the violin, he also reapaired them, so it was only natural that I was told to learn to play.

Alas, my ability was so lacking that the teacher swore and yelled at me for having no aptitude.

Instead of playiing, I appreciate music: I'm an audiophile with some great high end gear and systems.

Too bad that Portland's great jazz venue Jimmy Mak's is closing.

Quote: MrV

Too bad that Portland's great jazz venue Jimmy Mak's is closing.

Holy cow, I hadn't heard that. I played a gig there last year and have seen several others over the years. It really is a great room.

That really sucks. Now I need to get rich so I can open up a jazz bar and spend the rest of my life losing money. If the Oregon Symphony can organize as a 501(c)(3), so can I...

Quote: Aussie

That's what I thought too.

For the record though he is stinkingliberal.

The back and forth between stinkingliberal and EvenBob over at DT is what gave me doubt. They seemed to completely ignore each other on WoV, but are always at each other's throats over there.

Joeshlabotnik was just a jerk and a douche bag. He talked too much and couldn't make a clear point without adding in ten pounds of bs that only served to insult, demean, injure, goad a reaction. He sought trouble, invoked trouble. He thought he was being smart, but was only showing weakness. Most of the time I couldn't even bear to read his entire posts, because there was too much garbage and glossed on in disgust and irritation. He is the most irritating person in the world, an unwiped bottom of the forum, and now it has been wiped clean.

Quote: Aussie

That's what I thought too.

For the record though he is stinkingliberal.

I called them as the same as soon as SL showed up. I asked but was unable to get an answer easily so just left it alone. Call that MAWG syndrome of some kind. Leaving well enough alone.

I place him in the troll category. There is such a thing as using a little shock to make a point. Limbaugh and even Trump do that. But he just tried to insert as much name calling and near-filth into his post so as to get a reaction.

It is like stand-up comics using blue language. George Carlin would drop obscenities but his act was clever. I liked him. I less liked Andrew Dice Clay because he seemed to think it was funny just to cram as many swear words into an act as he could. Swearing just to swear is funny for a time, then most people turn 14.

Quote: ams288

The back and forth between stinkingliberal and EvenBob over at DT is what gave me doubt. They seemed to completely ignore each other on WoV, but are always at each other's throats over there.

What is "DT"?

Quote: bobbartop

What is "DT"?

diversitytomorow.com

Quote: onenickelmiracle

diversitytomorow.com

Thanks. Never heard of it.

Quote: bobbartop

Thanks. Never heard of it.

I just looked, geez, it's all the same people. What's the point? Over here we get to talk gambling and then occasionally get side-tracked into off-topic stuff. Why would anyone go there? Just to argue?

Quote: AZDuffman

I called them as the same as soon as SL showed up. I asked but was unable to get an answer easily so just left it alone. Call that MAWG syndrome of some kind. Leaving well enough alone.

I place him in the troll category. There is such a thing as using a little shock to make a point. Limbaugh and even Trump do that. But he just tried to insert as much name calling and near-filth into his post so as to get a reaction.

It is like stand-up comics using blue language. George Carlin would drop obscenities but his act was clever. I liked him. I less liked Andrew Dice Clay because he seemed to think it was funny just to cram as many swear words into an act as he could. Swearing just to swear is funny for a time, then most people turn 14.

Yep me too. It was just so plainly obvious that it was the same person. Never even tried to hide it. It's the same with his persona now compared to when he was mkl654321 back in 2010/11. I picked that one up pretty much as soon as he started up again here. Exact same MO, various stories similar or the same and then the clincher was when I put parts of his posts and parts of MKL posts into a website that compares language to determine whether two writers are the same person. Maybe he thought no one would remember him from 6 years ago? Totally wrong on that one!

Quote: Face

Almost no one. I sincerely like the guy. So much so that I have been mulling all day on whether to use one of my many unused and saved up overrides, regardless of the shock and horror that would course through the rest of the membership. But as he is at DT, I suppose I can have my fun there and spare y'all my abuse of power.

But seriously,... I won't sit here and debate y'alls opinion that he was abusive, overly aggressive, insert-complaint-here. And yes, technically he shouldn't have been here at all as he was nuked back in 2011 (you'll NEVER convince me he's not mkl654321 (and credit to Aussie who publicly outed him first; I knew, I just didn't wanna scare him away=p)). And yes, I can't point blame elsewhere because it's not as if he was sweet and turned sour because of abuse; mkl's just a firecracker. Always has been, I assume he always will be.

I... I just wanted him here. In communicating with him, I see he's just bloody pissed off with the way he sees the world today. And dammit, so am I. So are many of you. Can you say you never cross some lines when your core is threatened? I know I tore the s#$% out of PaiGowDan when he touched on a civil liberties subject I opposed. And I go full retard anytime guns are mentioned and aim to destroy any counter point anyone can muster. Why? Because things like this are central to my way of life. In order to feel whole as a human, these are the things I need. Of course my response is going to be jacked to 11. I see him as the same way. Look how the APs react with posted plays, look how Babs reacts with Trump in the WH, look how Dan reacts with gaming hijinks. We ain't so different, we and he.

Now, someone may come in with a but-but-but. Save it. You're right. By any standards of our rules, even our severely stepped back, near free-for-all of the election thread, he was way, wayyy over the line. I'll not argue that. But I hope you realize that in that man that you did not like, there was knowledge. There was value. There was a voice that is part of the harmony that is you, me, and us. The more we shut each other out and silence that which we don't like to hear, the more we must rely on broad strokes, the kind that paint us all as LEFT or RIGHT, as BLACK or WHITE, as FRIEND or FOE. We begin to stray from specifics like "I can't stand that RIGHTY Bannon and his hateful ways" to "I hate the hate on the RIGHT" to "I hate the RIGHT", and not only does that needlessly offend those who could be your friend or even your ally, it takes all of YOUR power, as it is no longer focused on the specific wrong you target.

I've always said I could find the good in Hitler, and I have. I can say I hold over a quarter, well over a quarter, of the 25pt manifesto of the NSDAP (Nazi Party), and I do. You gimme Mein Kampf and a month and I'll come back with 40 pages of inspirational, self-helpy awesomeness. It ain't no different than a cow. At a glance, no value. Maybe even negative; they eat a ton, s#$% everywhere, they're dumb and prone to rage, don't listen, can't be trained. You put a little work into her and it gets worse. You ever been inside a cow? It's wet and humid and smells like Satan's latrine. But if you keep working, you can take this huge, dumb, evil pile of resource sapping hate, that became a huge, wet, stinking pile of offal, and manage to peel off some pretty delectable sections that could greatly improve your standing at that moment. That's how I feel whenever I shut off my insta-flight about liberalism/socialism and just listen. The package might be s#$%, but with little effort, I see the gold to be found. Switch liberalism with conservatism, fascism, voluntarism, authoritarism, whatever... each has tasty bits inside. Perhaps if we could stop fighting, stop believing we're on opposing teams, stop thinking we're the boss because we got stars upon ours and they've none upon thars, we can find ways to mingle and mix and take the best from each, instead of shunning it out of hand because it's against your "team".

I dunno. Feels good to opine again.

I would prefer he was here still, too. I felt extreme pressure the entire time he was to get rid of him which I felt was very unfair and probably based in the complainers' opposition to many very valid points.

I disagree a little with blame; I think it has to be shared with those hounding and baiting him. The initial complaints I received were umbrage and overreaction rather than reporting suspend-able posts. After the first ban, Joe's tone changed to a darker, more snide tone, though still with valid comments, and he and his detractors spooled each other up from there.

I couldn't continue to ignore the rudeness and do my job. So thanks for the mod support on the decision. Still mulling whether I should hand out the rest of the suspensions earned by the others. Things have been lopsided for a while, and they're owed. But Joe made the choice in the end to go; I was just the hammer.

Thanks very much for the rest of your post. That was exactly my point in trying to get us to change our conversation thru drastic measures. I'm glad you've decided to opine again. Do more of it.

Quote: beachbumbabs

I couldn't continue to ignore the rudeness and do my job. So thanks for the mod support on the decision. Still mulling whether I should hand out the rest of the suspensions earned by the others. Things have been lopsided for a while, and they're owed.

You can do whatever you want and the owners (and their representatives, including the Wizard) will allow you to do, as a moderator. However, I find myself bewildered by any moderator who would consider going back and considering suspensions for others after initially ignoring a myriad of transgressions by both Joe and non-Joe folks in the Election 2016 thread and others. The tone was set, the limits were there, people either stayed within them or not and Joe earned several suspensions in a row. Others did not meet the criteria used for suspending people, so they didn't get suspended. Now Joe earns his nuke and you are looking to go back and suspend people who you already decided not to suspend?

I get that Joe said a lot of things that you think are true and that others don't agree with. He was fine there. It is all the name calling that he did along the way that made the difference in his stay here, not his opinions. He went further than the moderators would allow and he got some vacation time. he had the choice to change at that point and he didn't. He wouldn't.

You couldn't just be wrong for considering voting for Trump. You had to be called a name for it, too.

Quote: beachbumbabs

But Joe made the choice in the end to go; I was just the hammer.

You provided a well-defined line and he crossed it.

Face didn't make him do that. BBB didn't make him do that. People implored him not to do it. He did it anyway.

My feelings on it (not that they matter) is that you should let it go. Going back and issuing suspensions for past transgressions just seems wrong. Heck, if you did it would you stop where Joe should have been nuked or would you Martingale someone out of existence here even after enough of Joe's stuff was let go? Talk about slippery slopes...

If y'all knew Joe was a nuked former member, why did he get so much leeway in the first place?

Quote: beachbumbabs

Quote: Face

Almost no one. I sincerely like the guy. So much so that I have been mulling all day on whether to use one of my many unused and saved up overrides, regardless of the shock and horror that would course through the rest of the membership. But as he is at DT, I suppose I can have my fun there and spare y'all my abuse of power.

But seriously,... I won't sit here and debate y'alls opinion that he was abusive, overly aggressive, insert-complaint-here. And yes, technically he shouldn't have been here at all as he was nuked back in 2011 (you'll NEVER convince me he's not mkl654321 (and credit to Aussie who publicly outed him first; I knew, I just didn't wanna scare him away=p)). And yes, I can't point blame elsewhere because it's not as if he was sweet and turned sour because of abuse; mkl's just a firecracker. Always has been, I assume he always will be.

I... I just wanted him here. In communicating with him, I see he's just bloody pissed off with the way he sees the world today. And dammit, so am I. So are many of you. Can you say you never cross some lines when your core is threatened? I know I tore the s#$% out of PaiGowDan when he touched on a civil liberties subject I opposed. And I go full retard anytime guns are mentioned and aim to destroy any counter point anyone can muster. Why? Because things like this are central to my way of life. In order to feel whole as a human, these are the things I need. Of course my response is going to be jacked to 11. I see him as the same way. Look how the APs react with posted plays, look how Babs reacts with Trump in the WH, look how Dan reacts with gaming hijinks. We ain't so different, we and he.

Now, someone may come in with a but-but-but. Save it. You're right. By any standards of our rules, even our severely stepped back, near free-for-all of the election thread, he was way, wayyy over the line. I'll not argue that. But I hope you realize that in that man that you did not like, there was knowledge. There was value. There was a voice that is part of the harmony that is you, me, and us. The more we shut each other out and silence that which we don't like to hear, the more we must rely on broad strokes, the kind that paint us all as LEFT or RIGHT, as BLACK or WHITE, as FRIEND or FOE. We begin to stray from specifics like "I can't stand that RIGHTY Bannon and his hateful ways" to "I hate the hate on the RIGHT" to "I hate the RIGHT", and not only does that needlessly offend those who could be your friend or even your ally, it takes all of YOUR power, as it is no longer focused on the specific wrong you target.

I've always said I could find the good in Hitler, and I have. I can say I hold over a quarter, well over a quarter, of the 25pt manifesto of the NSDAP (Nazi Party), and I do. You gimme Mein Kampf and a month and I'll come back with 40 pages of inspirational, self-helpy awesomeness. It ain't no different than a cow. At a glance, no value. Maybe even negative; they eat a ton, s#$% everywhere, they're dumb and prone to rage, don't listen, can't be trained. You put a little work into her and it gets worse. You ever been inside a cow? It's wet and humid and smells like Satan's latrine. But if you keep working, you can take this huge, dumb, evil pile of resource sapping hate, that became a huge, wet, stinking pile of offal, and manage to peel off some pretty delectable sections that could greatly improve your standing at that moment. That's how I feel whenever I shut off my insta-flight about liberalism/socialism and just listen. The package might be s#$%, but with little effort, I see the gold to be found. Switch liberalism with conservatism, fascism, voluntarism, authoritarism, whatever... each has tasty bits inside. Perhaps if we could stop fighting, stop believing we're on opposing teams, stop thinking we're the boss because we got stars upon ours and they've none upon thars, we can find ways to mingle and mix and take the best from each, instead of shunning it out of hand because it's against your "team".

I dunno. Feels good to opine again.

I would prefer he was here still, too. I felt extreme pressure the entire time he was to get rid of him which I felt was very unfair and probably based in the complainers' opposition to many very valid points.

I disagree a little with blame; I think it has to be shared with those hounding and baiting him. The initial complaints I received were umbrage and overreaction rather than reporting suspend-able posts. After the first ban, Joe's tone changed to a darker, more snide tone, though still with valid comments, and he and his detractors spooled each other up from there.

I couldn't continue to ignore the rudeness and do my job. So thanks for the mod support on the decision. Still mulling whether I should hand out the rest of the suspensions earned by the others. Things have been lopsided for a while, and they're owed. But Joe made the choice in the end to go; I was just the hammer.

Thanks very much for the rest of your post. That was exactly my point in trying to get us to change our conversation thru drastic measures. I'm glad you've decided to opine again. Do more of it.

I thought you weren't allowed to mull. Thought there was a statute of limitations per se, had to be caught as it happens. If too much time had passed, you couldn't just drag up the past for spite or payback. Maybe you should just ask for Jbot to be your pet and promise to take care of him, giving him discipline, suspending him over and over. The forum won't care as long as he gets red every time. I think if you gave him a 50 word post limit, it might ruin his ability to be a rude jerk and have too few words left for a point.

Wizard would not deal with his garbage if he saw it happening I dont think and would have banished him if nobody would. You have to convince them the martingale isn't useful if it's the only tool.


I'll miss him as well, but for Schadenfreude has an ending, enjoy. .

Wizard set a relatively firm statute of limitations of a week, at least a couple years ago. That's what I'm referring to. How anybody could think I would bother to parse this entire dreck of a thread for insults, I don't know.

For the record, mkl... was before my time, and I had no idea or information joes was a former banned member. I'm a bit surprised to hear it.

RE: joeshlabotnik, doesn't matter -- a victory is a victory. #GoodRiddance #Troll #Idiot

From my understanding according to Mike there's no statute of limitations.

Joeshlabotnik can't and won't contain himself, it was just a matter of time. You can let him back and we will just be having this discussion again in the near future.

I don't care about his political stuff because it's just him trying to flame people. I actually enjoy hearing him pretend he knows about Advantage Play. I get to laugh because I know he knows almost nothing about AP. Whatever he did say regarding his 8 years of AP experience in LV had more holes than Swiss cheese.

Quote: bobbartop

I just looked, geez, it's all the same people. What's the point? Over here we get to talk gambling and then occasionally get side-tracked into off-topic stuff. Why would anyone go there? Just to argue?

At the time, old management thought that WoV had strayed from it's concept, namely being a forum of Vegas in general and casinos in more particular. Like all forums, over a few years a few personalities were dominating and the same personalities had said most of what they had to say about Vegas and casinos. Also, politics was getting to be a main focus.

DT was created to be a sort of relief-valve. All the non-vegas talk was to be there by the regulars. DT has ebbed and flowed and more flowed since the sale and split of the boards. Mike graciously kept it open for us, but no real promotion is done for it. DT is sort of a dive bar with a dozen regulars who all like it as it is and while new blood is welcome, nobody has an incentive to find any.

Stop over if you like for more generalized conversation.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Wizard set a relatively firm statute of limitations of a week, at least a couple years ago. That's what I'm referring to. How anybody could think I would bother to parse this entire dreck of a thread for insults, I don't know.

For the record, mkl... was before my time, and I had no idea or information joes was a former banned member. I'm a bit surprised to hear it.

From your comment, who really knew what to think you might do.

Basically, Joe said "screw you" to everyone who asked him to calm down and insult less, and did what he did. Some of us tossed an insult or two back at him, but nowhere near his level of bad behavior at all.

Why all the love for someone who, in spite of his appealing positions to some, treated the forum like crap?

Quote: RonC

Why all the love for someone who, in spite of his appealing positions to some, treated the forum like crap?

+1

It is like if there was an old-time gentlemens club (not the modern meaning) where members are expected to have proper dress and manners. Then someone comes along, dress doesn't meet code, yelling and swearing, and not cleaning up after himself. When told he is not behaving as a member should he then makes fun of the members and their rules.

I will state it again, I have been on internet forums since before we called them forums. His behavior is a sign of deeper issues. At younger ages it it the kind of behavior teachers should be looking for instead of suspending kids for making their hands into a gun and yelling "BANG!" Not saying he is going to shoot a place up, but am saying that when this kind of person snaps these are the warning signs you look back with 20/20.

That sick critter would quickly make a stinking mess in a forum about knitting sweaters or fly-tying or cooking cupcakes, and basically did so here pissing venom (and childishly ludicrous falsehoods) in some threads that simply asked for some basic factual information. Nothing to do with whatever he pretended his supposed politics were, everything to do with his severe emotional problems. To somehow squint hard enough to "see" a political view as the issue in the matter, someone would just about have to be way far lost over the edge in some intense political obsession of their own.

If that thing was not a completely deranged individual (and obviously experienced at manufacturing online storms, even if crudely) who amounts to a definition of the noun troll, who is all about creating an utterly pointless ruckus swirling around himself, then there simply is no such thing, and there never has been, anywhere, ever. In which case there's probably no need for the existence of any sort of moderation function.

Quote: DrawingDead

Nothing to do with whatever he pretended his supposed politics were, everything to do with his severe emotional problems.

Understatement of 2016.

Quote: Boz

That never happened! It is isn't on the National news, it ever happened. You should know that by now.

yeah, you can't trust the mainstream media and the fact check sites are all biased. I suggest that you find a couple of sites that align with your views that deal in a mixture of truths, half truths, rumors and fabrications and just go with it.

I will say stress can have a lot to do with these problems. Unfortunately the problems become other's problems. If you can remember him saying once he wish he would've deleted the URL for this site, that implies a compulsion. I dont think he can help how he communicates, it's probably like a game he can't help playing. Trump has very little to do with it, I think for him it's just a catalyst, and he's latching onto it just to feel something. I wish the guy the best, hope the world will open new doors for him, and he'll wonder why he even cared about all this and Trump, and he'll act normal. Until then and after, he'll just have to throw dung at the walls until he tires somewhere else.

As irritating as he was, it was a bit exciting wondering when he would get the axe, or get thrown in the hole. These characters are like that, as you see some always hoping Kentry comes back, because it was interesting and they'd love to hate him again if he returned. Like a cat toying with a mouse, when the mouse dies, the cat is sad. It tries jiggling it, pretending the mouse isn't dead, but it doesn't work after the climatic moment occurs and there isn't any going back.

Btw, I'm not seeing it so clear he is this mlkguy. Could be, I just haven't recognized him from the threads dragged up.

Babs--- politically you and JoeS were quite similar. But while you would put down Trump you wouldn't obsessively berate those who would vote for him. You never refer to Trump voters as knuckle draggers. Same with terapined. And Rxwine. And ams. Views close to diametrically opposed to mine. But never have they called me an idiot for my opinions. When I would always point out that I was not a fan of HRC or DJT, that was enough for the non JoeS liberals. But JoeS would label me a Trumper. You would do no such thing.
You and I have had a few back and forths about JoeS. Even though, until now, I never agreed with your decisions, I was always able to follow your reasoning, and it never elevated to rudeness.
In summary....... You are a great moderator.

Quote: onenickelmiracle

I will say stress can have a lot to do with these problems. Unfortunately the problems become other's problems. If you can remember him saying once he wish he would've deleted the URL for this site, that implies a compulsion. I dont think he can help how he communicates, it's probably like a game he can't help playing. Trump has very little to do with it, I think for him it's just a catalyst, and he's latching onto it just to feel something. I wish the guy the best, hope the world will open new doors for him, and he'll wonder why he even cared about all this and Trump, and he'll act normal. Until then and after, he'll just have to throw dung at the walls until he tires somewhere else.
.

I think this is spot on.

"I'm not seeing it so clear he is this mlkguy"

Strikingly similar even with the low level AP stuff and general knowledge, but their backstories just don't jive.

They are not the same unless his current AP backstory is mostly just made up using old information hes gathered since.(very possible since it is/was full of holes). His current stories have some ring of truth, however it's as if its all 3rd hand information passed along as if he was not really there doing it.

I'm not sure if JoeS mentioned Rob Singer, however mlk and Rob Singer had quite the "romance". mlk seemed to love and have a positive attitude about AP using words like "terrific promotion" etc etc. JoeS seemed to loath AP.