When a forum member doesn't pay
Quote: AyecarumbaWhen a forum member makes multiple promises to make good on a losing wager, but doesn't follow through, is it okay to post the contents of the Private Messages that document the unfulfilled obligation?
Do I owe you money again? j/k
Unfortunately, no, this would not be permitted under the PM Confidentiality Rule. Also, the Forum would not take any action against a Member in such a situation, anyway, because any such wager would be the individual business of the two respective parties and the Forum has no standing---and legally cannot---act as an arbiter in the dispute.
However, I could outline the circumstances and name the other party without referencing the PM' s?Quote: Mission146Do I owe you money again? j/k
Unfortunately, no, this would not be permitted under the PM Confidentiality Rule. Also, the Forum would not take any action against a Member in such a situation, anyway, because any such wager would be the individual business of the two respective parties and the Forum has no standing---and legally cannot---act as an arbiter in the dispute.
Quote: AyecarumbaHowever, I could outline the circumstances and name the other party without referencing the PM' s?
I think the answer to your question was contained in Guys and Dolls, wherein they discussed the meaning of a "marker" and there was a threat to "buzz it all over town" that Sky Masterson had welshed on a marker.
So unless you can turn it into a famous musical...I'd recommend you just stop making bets with him.
Don't mention anything that's in the PM.Quote: AyecarumbaWhen a forum member makes multiple promises to make good on a losing wager, but doesn't follow through, is it okay to post the contents of the Private Messages that document the unfulfilled obligation?
Cant you just post a message to that person reminding them they seem to have forgotten to pay you.
or find out the punishment for that particular violation. It might be worth it.
Some may feel you have a duty to out a welcher.
Quote: AxelWolf
Some may feel you have a duty to out a welcher.
I do think it is important for others to know of someone that doesn't pay up on a friendly wager. It helps everyone to avoid making wagers that you have no chance of winning.
Just don't reveal any specific language. The deed is the deed.
Quote: BozI do think it is important for others to know of someone that doesn't pay up on a friendly wager. It helps everyone to avoid making wagers that you have no chance of winning.
Agreed.
On the other hand, is there a chance there is mis-communication between you and the other person on what would win/lose on the bet?
For example, I believe the Wizard made a post a little while back about a bet he made with a friend while standing on the sidewalk on the corner of an intersection. The person said "I bet the next car will stop at the stop sign", and the Wizard booked a bet against the next car stopping. When the next car came to the stop sign, the other person ran in the middle of the street, forcing the car to stop. I believe the Wizard paid up on the bet. However, some people in that situation would say that wasn't fair to run into the street forcing the car to stop and wouldn't pay. Is that person a welcher or not?
Quote: RSAgreed.
On the other hand, is there a chance there is mis-communication between you and the other person on what would win/lose on the bet?
For example, I believe the Wizard made a post a little while back about a bet he made with a friend while standing on the sidewalk on the corner of an intersection. The person said "I bet the next car will stop at the stop sign", and the Wizard booked a bet against the next car stopping. When the next car came to the stop sign, the other person ran in the middle of the street, forcing the car to stop. I believe the Wizard paid up on the bet. However, some people in that situation would say that wasn't fair to run into the street forcing the car to stop and wouldn't pay. Is that person a welcher or not?
I believe that is how "Titanic Thompson" made his living according to the book about him. One story is about him betting a boxing champion he couldn't knock him out with one punch on the other side of a doorway. Naturally the boxer took the bet, Thompson then shut the door and won the bet. True story or not, sometimes you have to consider everything and option when making a bet. But even if you were tricked, the right thing is to pay the bet and learn from it.
All the better reason to simply ask/remind him/her publicly that the bet needs to be resolved.Quote: RSAgreed.
On the other hand, is there a chance there is mis-communication between you and the other person
A simple post saying, Dear RS, We had a bet/wager that I believe I won, it's been 2 months and I haven't received anything yet. Did you receive my last PM?
Anyone refusing to allow any details about a wager is probably guilty of welching.
Sometimes this is a good way to look at it if someone owes you.
I sent it to Lem66 and told him you slept with his Boyfriend.Quote: rainmanDear Axel, We had a bet/wager that I believe I won, it's been 2 months and I haven't received anything yet. Did you receive my last PM?
Either way I would think a bet can be mentioned since it could be a public post in theory but since edited. Leave it to the welsher to admit it was a private message. Honestly did anyone ever think messages were to be private when wagers were concerned and not think them to be used to be used as documentation protecting nonpayment with shame as a last resort. I always expected if I made a bet, I could be able to discuss it and would.
Quote: onenickelmiracleA bet doesn't include a reasonable expectation of privacy to hide nonpayment.
Of course it does.
A bet made privately via email is most assuredly NOT in the public domain.
I don't care if they're both card-carrying members of WOV: it's private, so mentioning the details / identity of the alleged welsher on this board is, per rule four, grounds for suspension.
*Unless of course you WRITE the rules, in which case, by definition, you can do whatever you want*
I'm wondering if the OP made a larger bet than normal with someone who normally pays, however this bet was more than they could handle.
Perhaps, however for the most part it's been safe betting on here. It's also fun. They might have had a good history with the person.Quote: GandlerPerhaps the wise thing to do is not to make bets with strangers on the internet who you have no way to track down, and there is no way to enforce the agreement.
I wouldn't make a large bet without assurance id get paid. If its small enough then both parties shouldn't have a problem posting about it.
OP should post it up and take his chances on a suspension. Ask what the punishment is
Quote: MrV
A bet made privately via email is most assuredly NOT in the public domain.
I don't care if they're both card-carrying members of WOV: it's private, so mentioning the details / identity of the alleged welsher on this board is, per rule four, grounds for suspension.
I don't buy that at all.
The rules here are PM's using this sites PM system is private.
An email should be fair game. Its outside the realm of the WOV universe.
Plenty of emails in real life are made public.
Only if the email contains some type of privacy clause (some of our emails at work have this clause) could this be a problem.
I am very curious.
I've made multiple bets with forum members and have had no problems.
On the flip side, lost them all. No biggie, just a few low roller bets :-)
Quote: MrVrule 4: "Respect privacy. Do not post any information about someone else that is intended to be private or quote from private communication."
Ok , good point.
I think this rule needs to be adjusted.
1st time I am actually reading this rule.
Very broad. Too broad.
To me an email is a private communication. So you are right.
On the flip side, I don't think emails are intended to be private unless there is a privacy clause in an email.
For example, people email jokes, funny pictures, funny videos ect. Often the recipient forwards the email to others. No privacy there concerning email.
Quote: MrVAs the bet was a private bet between members, rule four precludes the OP discussing it here.
Perhaps I'm mistaken, but as Aye participates in many public bets (such as football, electoral prediction), I assumed the bet in question was a public one. Would that make a difference? Can Aye confirm or deny?
Quote: onenickelmiracleI do remember Wizard mentioning a deal gone wrong with juicyjenny which was obviously a private communication, so precedent has been set. A bet doesn't include a reasonable expectation of privacy to hide nonpayment.
There was also the incident where our boy Ace was being stalked. That was by PM, and I know about it because he said so. The details were surely kept under wraps, but he at least gave the gist of the situation.
Quote: terapinedOk , good point.
I think this rule needs to be adjusted.
1st time I am actually reading this rule.
Very broad. Too broad.
To me an email is a private communication. So you are right.
On the flip side, I don't think emails are intended to be private unless there is a privacy clause in an email.
For example, people email jokes, funny pictures, funny videos ect. Often the recipient forwards the email to others. No privacy there concerning email.
Just that rule needs to be adjusted? Rule 15 contradicts Rule 4 for starters. Good thing we're not in a court of law.
Quote: rainmanHuge advantage play, Make as many bets as you can, collect the winners and don't pay the losers. +++EV until you get your ass beat of course. :)
Approves.
Quote: AxelWolfPerhaps, however for the most part it's been safe betting on here. It's also fun. They might have had a good history with the person.
I wouldn't make a large bet without assurance id get paid. If its small enough then both parties shouldn't have a problem posting about it.
OP should post it up and take his chances on a suspension. Ask what the punishment is
I agree with Axelwolf.
Most people who make a prop bet, in any circumstance, do so because they think it is +EV. In an Internet-based venue, though, whether or not you think you have the best of the bet itself is not the only factor. There also exists the possibility of not getting paid, so if you think that there's any chance whatsoever of not getting paid, you have to factor that directly against your EV.
It's essentially the same thing as gambling with on-line casinos.
You should want to limit yourself to advantageous situations, and to do that, you have to take all possible factors into consideration, including the possibility of no-pays and having difficulty enforcing the bet.
Quote: 1BBDoes betting here violate Forum Rule 8?
Yup.
I hereby swear to start enforcing the Rule, in this regard, as soon as I get fined for jaywalking.
Quote: AyecarumbaThanks for the input. I have found that folks who enter agreements here take their obligations seriously and make settlement in a timely fashion (including, on a different occasion, the party I am asking about). The other party has contacted me and promised a delivery date. If that date slips, I will make the details public.
Fair enough to me.
The good old checks in the mail.Quote: AyecarumbaThanks for the input. I have found that folks who enter agreements here take their obligations seriously and make settlement in a timely fashion (including, on a different occasion, the party I am asking about). The other party has contacted me and promised a delivery date. If that date slips, I will make the details public.
Was the amount significant ? Over $200
Quote: AxelWolfSometimes this is a good way to look at it if someone owes you
I can recount dozens of times this went down like that for me, and believe me it was indeed getting off cheap.
If Aye was NOT referring to a debt incurred in a thread and it was solely a PM matter, then I think that would be on him and the other party. And this site, which has no enforcement policy or liability for payment whether the bet was made public or kept private, would not be the appropriate place to call out the other party.
Since either is hypothetical without further information from Aye, I reserve the right to change my stance on this based on the facts of any individual instance. But what I stated above would be a starting point on any ruling I were to make, since the question was asked.
Any bet made here with another member (publicly or by PM) should be considered the "word" of a member and anyone not keeping their "word" (with proof, of course) should be called out.
PS, below is just reward for all such
Quote: beachbumbabsI also figured Aye was referring to a public debt, perhaps one due from last year's Football Challenge, which was not fulfilled by 2 players as he mentioned previously. Or perhaps some other challenge where the bet was posted and accepted in a thread on this site. If that is the case, despite them having correspondence in PM about payment, if that debt has not been discharged, I would maintain it was NOT a violation of PM's to name that person and the bet publicly set by reference to the thread. There has been some precedent set in this area as well, but I think the fact that it was public and published here rules. The PM'ing is generally used to provide addresses/payment methods/other necessary info once the result has been determined, and not to hide the fact of the bet.
If Aye was NOT referring to a debt incurred in a thread and it was solely a PM matter, then I think that would be on him and the other party. And this site, which has no enforcement policy or liability for payment whether the bet was made public or kept private, would not be the appropriate place to call out the other party.
Since either is hypothetical without further information from Aye, I reserve the right to change my stance on this based on the facts of any individual instance. But what I stated above would be a starting point on any ruling I were to make, since the question was asked.
Since the posting of this thread, multiple promises to pay have been made, reminders sent, deadlines set, and now past with no payment. Therefore, as a service to the other members of the board, I have the unenviable duty to let you know that strictlyAP did not make good on his losing bet.
strictlyAP offered various odds on the last scratcher post, including 2-1 if the total was over $30. I took him up on his offer, wagering $50 to win $100. The bet was confirmed by strictlyAP. The total on the scratcher turned out to be $75. Therefore, strictlyAP owes me $100.
As I mentioned previously, I have received numerous promises that it would be taken care of, but nothing has been received. My last email to him has not even been opened, yet he actively checks in and posts on the board.
If he should pay, I will let everyone know here.
Quote: strictlyAPI advised aye carumna that I was traveling and would do it when I got back I travel for plays he clearly knew this and we have done business before he can start all the storm tbat he wants that is on him he kept pressing for a date and I told him three times when I got back- the play went longer then expected - so yes I did not check my pms. Aye also was aware of this from the stsrt I do not want to put provate pms on here or reveal information as it is against the forum rules but feel free to check with the wizard and Midwest ap who I have done husiness with and have had no issues- if aye wants to start a storm over info he clearly knew we can go tjst route
If you have made good on the bet, then all will be well in Wizardland! Whether or not you feel slighted by Aye outing you, whether appropriately or inappropriately, is irrelevant to making good on the bet.
if you didn't have the money, some 'splaning to do
how much time is generally considered acceptable. If in person, I think immediate payment is the only perfectly acceptable thing unless having to raise the money was made clear in advance
if over the internet, like this, a few days would be OK in my book. What do others think?
Quote: odiousgambitbasically one gambler assumes the other 'has the money' when the bet is placed
if you didn't have the money, some 'splaning to do
how much time is generally considered acceptable. If in person, I think immediate payment is the only perfectly acceptable thing unless having to raise the money was made clear in advance
if over the internet, like this, a few days would be OK in my book. What do others think?
From my experience. Over the internet it should be paid within a week if using any online payment service, ie paypal. If it is through the mail then I would say 2 to 3 weeks. Anything longer then you risk the issue of not getting the money.
That's why I dislike betting small amounts on the forum. I don't like dealing with settling up aspect. I hate small tasks whatever they might be. That's why I avoided the FB contests along with being forced to make x numbers of picks.Quote: GWAEFrom my experience. Over the internet it should be paid within a week if using any online payment service, ie paypal. If it is through the mail then I would say 2 to 3 weeks. Anything longer then you risk the issue of not getting the money.
I haven't yet had to send anyone a payment (not that I remember). My full name is attached to my pay pal so that options out. A few people sent me cash Via snail male to my PO box(thats always nice) or settled up in Vegas.
I might get busy or something and I hate having things hanging over my head. I would hate to see a AxelWolf hasn't paid me yet thead.
I guess you can buy paypal codes or something(I think there's a fee). Whats the best easy anonymous payment method?
Quote: AxelWolfThat's why I dislike betting small amounts on the forum. I don't like dealing with settling up aspect. I hate small tasks whatever they might be. That's why I avoided the FB contests along with being forced to make x numbers of picks.
I haven't yet had to send anyone a payment (not that I remember). My full name is attached to my pay pal so that options out. A few people sent me cash Via snail male to my PO box(thats always nice) or settled up in Vegas.
I might get busy or something and I hate having things hanging over my head. I would hate to see a AxelWolf hasn't paid me yet thead.
I guess you can buy paypal codes or something(I think there's a fee). Whats the best easy anonymous payment method?
Some folks on here like Amazon gift cards. Seems like you could do that anonymously and without a fee; I think the recipient just needs a code to redeem it.
