Going on tilt and losing / regaining heart (seeking a good read)
That was a crazy situation with a pit boss gawping from one side and another staff member grinning from the other, I spoke up and said "what the fuck is going, would you like a seat", so the pit boss told the staff member to find something to do, which invited comments from the dealer who was loving every minute of my demise and melt down, something that doesn't happen often but can happen.
Licking my wounds, I now find myself in the situation of having to do it all over again, Not entirely fazed by that, because I've done it many times in the past, grinding out 20k per month, yet I find it so mentally draining to be so far ahead and having to restart all over. My question to veteran board members, it there any decent literature on the web, book recommendations that deal with these rare and unfortunate aspects of gambling.
You should only play baccarat for entertainment purposes, for an amount you are fine with losing.
With regard to "tilt" and other psychological aspects of gambling, there are many poker books that discuss this. Barry Greenstein's excellent book "Ace on the River" has a few chapters devoted to psychology and tilt.
Doyle Brunson's advice in "According to Doyle" is to never sit down to a poker game if you are feeling too angry, upset, sick, or anxious to sit through a 2-hour movie in a theater. I think that is good advice.
However, that only applies to poker and other games that can be positive-expectation. For a negative game, don't play unless you're having fun and can afford to lose the money you are playing with.
Quote: egalite
Licking my wounds, I now find myself in the situation of having to do it all over again.
Do what all over again. You lost your whole BR,
is that what you're saying?
If employees were annoying you, speak up promptly.
If it was other players bending cards... play Mini Bacc where players don't touch the cards.
Don't let things annoy you. Luck comes and goes but bad employees go if you speak up.
Cheers for the Brunson quote, it is a start, I was looking for a decent physiologically read if anybody knows of any.
Quote: sodawaterBaccarat is a negative game and you cannot expect to "grind out" a profit from it.
I dunno. Most games can be beaten if you have the right information.
I must admit, I'm a little confused too. I can only think of a couple of ways to (legally) beat baccarat and they don't seem too likely to work in practice. But maybe there is something that I'm not thinking of...
What you wrote is very vague.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI dunno. Most games can be beaten if you have the right information.
I must admit, I'm a little confused too. I can only think of a couple of ways to (legally) beat baccarat and they don't seem too likely to work in practice. But maybe there is something that I'm not thinking of...
Maybe OP is Phil Ivey
Not quite, I lost the bulk of my tidy trip profit, but that wasn't the purpose of the post.Quote: EvenBobDo what all over again. You lost your whole BR, is that what you're saying?
It is very rare for me to lose my composure at the tables, it was like being in a pressure cooker, the combination of losing and having two staff members gawping at me plus the dealer, so I did speak up with the odd expletive. No doubt the pit boss was enjoying it, as I bought in for 2k the day before and turned that into a 250% profit, something they weren't happy with. It was akin to going on tilt at a poker table [hence the title]. Now I'm am seeking (if any exists) a good read to find heart to do it all over again.Quote: FleaStiffI'm not quite sure what happened.
If employees were annoying you, speak up promptly.
If it was other players bending cards... play Mini Bacc where players don't touch the cards.
Don't let things annoy you. Luck comes and goes but bad employees go if you speak up.
Zen and the Art of Poker ?Quote: egaliteNot quite, I lost the bulk of my tidy trip profit, but that wasn't the purpose of the post.
It is very rare for me to lose my composure at the tables, it was like being in a pressure cooker, the combination of losing and having two staff members gawping at me plus the dealer, so I did speak up with the odd expletive. No doubt the pit boss was enjoying it, as I bought in for 2k the day before and turned that into a 250% profit, something they weren't happy with. It was akin to going on tilt at a poker table [hence the title]. Now I'm am seeking (if any exists) a good read to find heart to do it all over again.
LOL, when you become my accountant, I will provide you with the details. Yes by your standards I lost an incredible deal of money, from a situation that began by betting the wrong side on a frustrating table, with a frustratingly slow dealer. I have played since and won.Quote: EvenBobWhat happened? Do you lose a great deal of money?
What you wrote is very vague.
Surely there are some good gambling physiological / motivational reads on the internet.
Quote: AxelWolfZen and the Art of Poker ?
Ha, I had just copied the link from amazon and I was going to post the same reply :)
Bottom line: If you have the edge, don't worry about the money; just trust the math. If you don't have the edge, get used to losing.
What do you say to the frequently heard opinion that to be an advantage player at baccarat is not possible [assuming all is on the up and up]?
Grinding out over 50k inside two months from one casino, $20k from another inside a month, betting a variation of levels $10, $25, $100 & $500, while frequently enjoying, consecutive successful sessions of 10, 15 even 27. I reverse the maths on to the house (without wishing to go further into detail), I don't rely or need to predict "edge" anything. Sure scoff it you like, my unparallelled win rate speaks for it self. It is very rare for me to lose my cool, yet that happened two days ago and yes it cost me.Quote: AxiomOfChoiceHa, I had just copied the link from amazon and I was going to post the same reply :)
Bottom line: If you have the edge, don't worry about the money; just trust the math. If you don't have the edge, get used to losing.
Now I want to find a good read, not only to help me lick my wounds, already have got back in the saddle, but I'm limping, however more importantly I want to better arm/educate/awareness/ myself to prevent it happening again. I will check out the book mentioned.
everything you are saying is nonsense and you would be well advised to stop deluding yourself that you have some sort of mystical advantage in baccarat.
Quote: egaliteYes by your standards I lost an incredible deal of money, .
You have no idea what my standards are because
I have never talked about them, and you know it.
You're the guy that laughs every time goals are
mentioned, yet if you had loss limits you wouldn't
be where you are now. I've known you for a long
time, you know better than to sit there like a
ploppie in a bad mood, and just lose and lose.
On a side note, don't you just hate it when you bet
one side and you meant to bet the other? There's
actual research on this, it's a trick the brain does.
We really have to double check our bets more often.
Quote: egaliteGrinding out over 50k inside two months from one casino, $20k from another inside a month, betting a variation of levels $10, $25, $100 & $500, while frequently enjoying, consecutive successful sessions of 10, 15 even 27. I reverse the maths on to the house (without wishing to go further into detail), I don't rely or need to predict "edge" anything. Sure scoff it you like, my unparallelled win rate speaks for it self. It is very rare for me to lose my cool, yet that happened two days ago and yes it cost me.
Now I want to find a good read, not only to help me lick my wounds, already have got back in the saddle, but I'm limping, however more importantly I want to better arm/educate/awareness/ myself to prevent it happening again. I will check out the book mentioned.
I'm not scoffing at anything. What I'm saying is this:
If you have a mathematical edge, don't worry about the money. Swings happen. Understanding this, and really coming to terms with it, can prevent you from going on tilt. You should EXPECT to lose a bunch of money sometimes, if you play for long enough. It's not about preventing it from happening again -- it's about not losing your cool when it does happen.
If you don't have an edge and are just playing some betting progression or looking for patterns (say it ain't so) then get used to losing, because you haven't reversed anything.
I honestly don't know what you are doing, so I'm not scoffing or judging or anything. I am well aware that many games can be beaten, if you have the right information.
Quote: egaliteGrinding out over 50k inside two months from one casino, $20k from another inside a month, betting a variation of levels $10, $25, $100 & $500, while frequently enjoying, consecutive successful sessions of 10, 15 even 27. I reverse the maths on to the house (without wishing to go further into detail), I don't rely or need to predict "edge" anything. Sure scoff it you like, my unparallelled win rate speaks for it self. It is very rare for me to lose my cool, yet that happened two days ago and yes it cost me.
Now I want to find a good read, not only to help me lick my wounds, already have got back in the saddle, but I'm limping, however more importantly I want to better arm/educate/awareness/ myself to prevent it happening again. I will check out the book mentioned.
I think people here don't care for people who say they have the edge, unless they explain the strategy behind it.
I'm sure if you have a consistent winning strategy at a game you play, you would not want to share it, but you can't really say anything about people "scoffing" at you when the only explanation you give them is "I am successful and my winrate speaks for itself" because in reality, it doesn't speak for itself. Since we don't know what you do.
Quote: egaliteMy question to veteran board members, it there any decent literature on the web, book recommendations that deal with these rare and unfortunate aspects of gambling.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Black_Swan_%282007_book%29
I don't and have never claimed to be an AP playing Baccarat, I'm just a very savvy player.Quote: odiousgambitYou seem to feel you are an AP at Baccarat; frankly, zipping over to the high limit section would seem to rule out card-sorting or some such method.
What do you say to the frequently heard opinion that to be an advantage player at baccarat is not possible [assuming all is on the up and up]?
As with all casino games (without exception) everything comes down to money management. Even BJ players when the shoe count is favorable rely on money management, i.e they increase their bets even though the dealer is just as likely to snare a BJ as the player. I simply play a game whereas the house has to buck xx odds for me to lose x number of bets in a row, even when they manage that, it's not the end of the world, unless they can do so on a consistent basis. Yesterday as an example they managed it approx 5 times in 6 shoes, twice in one shoe and no times in a few others, yet I waked away with a 150% profit of my buyin. Meanwhile I simple focus on solid MM which is what gambling hinges on, whether you perceive you have an advantage or not. Unfortunately I am not a robot and there was a rare melt down.
This thread was not started to discuss the merit of playing Baccarat, or for me to divulge my personal details for Spike, rather a little "here is a brief of what happened", surely the board members at WoV must have come across some good reads regarding recouping after a tilt.
Quote: egaliteI don't and have never claimed to be an AP playing Baccarat, I've just a very savvy player.Quote: odiousgambitYou seem to feel you are an AP at Baccarat; frankly, zipping over to the high limit section would seem to rule out card-sorting or some such method.
What do you say to the frequently heard opinion that to be an advantage player at baccarat is not possible [assuming all is on the up and up]?
As with all casino games (without exception) everything comes down to money management. Even BJ players when the shoe count is favorable rely on money management, i.e they increase their bets even though the dealer is just as likely to snare a BJ as the player. I simply play a game whereas the house has to buck xx odds for me to lose x number of bets in a row, even when they manage that, it's not the end of the world, unless they can do so on a consistent basis. Yesterday as an example they managed it approx 5 times in 6 shoes, twice in one shoe and no times in a few others, yet I waked away with a 150% profit of my buyin. Meanwhile I simple focus on solid MM which is what gambling hinges on, whether you perceive you have an advantage or not. Unfortunately I am not a robot and there was a rare melt down.
This thread was not started to discuss the merit of playing Baccarat, or for me to divulge my personal details for Spike, rather a little "here is a brief of what happened", surely the board members at WoV must have come across some good reads regarding recouping after a tilt.
Note that in blackjack, while it is true that the dealer and player are equally likely to get dealt a blackjack, the player gets dealt 3:2 on his blackjacks, while the dealer does not. I'll flip coins with you all day long if you give me 3:2. Hell, I'll even let you give me 6:5. Please bring lots of money.
Short memory? You did tell me once, but never mind.Quote: EvenBobYou have no idea what my standards are because
I have never talked about them, and you know it.
Yes you are right, I actually did leave the table mid shoe, but there was only one other open which was half way through. Then you kinda go into a mode of needing it recoup asap. Sometimes you need to read it in front to you, to mentally re-enforce it in yourself.Quote:You're the guy that laughs every time goals are
mentioned, yet if you had loss limits you wouldn't
be where you are now. I've known you for a long
time, you know better than to sit there like a
ploppie in a bad mood, and just lose and lose.
LOL, sometimes you bet the wrong side and it pays off as every hand is 50-50 anyway, this time it didn't and lead to dire consequences.Quote:On a side note, don't you just hate it when you bet one side and you meant to bet the other? There's actual research on this, it's a trick the brain does. We really have to double check our bets more often.
There is no edge in Baccarat, it is money management game which I am very good at. I don't look for patterns, I don't even look at the electronic score board, because every hand is a 50-50 outcome and non-correlated, I don't play like the rest of the muppets you generally see at tables. Yes I do play a progression, because you won't win flat betting and you need too much luck to bet positive. You can be lucky on any given hand, however to consistently win, which I have been doing is not down to luck.Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI'm not scoffing at anything. What I'm saying is this:
If you have a mathematical edge, don't worry about the money. Swings happen. Understanding this, and really coming to terms with it, can prevent you from going on tilt. You should EXPECT to lose a bunch of money sometimes, if you play for long enough. It's not about preventing it from happening again -- it's about not losing your cool when it does happen.
If you don't have an edge and are just playing some betting progression or looking for patterns (say it ain't so) then get used to losing, because you haven't reversed anything.
I honestly don't know what you are doing, so I'm not scoffing or judging or anything. I am well aware that many games can be beaten, if you have the right information.
This wasn't so much a swing, I do know all about them, it was a melt down of me personally and I decided it was time to seek out some inspirational reads.
Before you waste several thousand more dollars chasing your "grind money," why not invest in a high school statistics book so you can confirm the above-mentioned fact for yourself?
So you have recently pulled out $70k from casinos inside 4 months betting relatively small?Quote: sodawaterThere is no progression of betting or money management that can overcome (or even make a dent in) the house edge.
Before you waste several thousand more dollars chasing your "grind money," why not invest in a high school statistics book so you can confirm the above-mentioned fact for yourself?
Quote: egalite
LOL, sometimes you bet the wrong side and it pays off as every hand is 50-50 anyway, this time it didn't and lead to dire consequences.
My point is, we think we bet where we wanted,
we can look right at it and think it's right, and
it's not. It's a malfunction of the brain and it's
common in everybody. It mostly manifests
itself in getting your left and right hand confused.
I'll mean to bet red and bet black instead and
not even realize it right in front of me. Very
disconcerting. Luckily there's a 50/50 chance
of it being correct.
Quote: sodawaterThere is no progression of betting or money management that can overcome (or even make a dent in) the house edge.
Absolutely right. He isn't talking about that.
Quote: egaliteSo you have recently pulled out $70k from casinos inside 4 months betting relatively small?
Are you sure you want to go down this road.
I wouldn't if I were you. There be math people
here..
Ha, several years ago, I placed a 7.5k bet on the wrong side (the days when I used a Fibo, long gone), called the cards and even cheered the winning side, then looked at which side my bet was on, which was the wrong side. the table was full I leaned over to place my bet, even my mate who was suppose to be watching my back didn't notice the mistake. We couldn't believe it, stunned, even the dealer was confused why we cheered. Never didn't recoup from that session.Quote: EvenBobMy point is, we think we bet where we wanted,
we can look right at it and think it's right, and
it's not. It's a malfunction of the brain and it's
common in everybody. It mostly manifests
itself in getting your left and right hand confused.
I'll mean to bet red and bet black instead and
not even realize it right in front of me. Very
disconcerting. Luckily there's a 50/50 chance
of it being correct.
I'm well aware of it, most don't play Baccarat because there is no edge, which I will freely admit. I don't let the HE concern me. I'm off now for my 2nd session after the event, it's like a job, no travel when you stay above the gaming floor.Quote: EvenBobAre you sure you want to go down this road.
I wouldn't if I were you. There be math people
here..
carry on... it is people like you that keep casinos in business.
Quote: sodawateregalite,
carry on... it is people like you that keep casinos in business.
Pit bosses need bonuses.
Bac won't make you money. Its entertainment masked by cards and squeezing them to feel more in control. I realized this after playing a ton when I moved here. Yes its one of the fastest ways to make money but the math makes no sense. Smartest thing I did was see how foolish I was in chasing my +EV losses with a -ev game.
Quote: sodawateregalite,
carry on... it is people like you that keep casinos in business.
You know nothing about it, which is just as
well. You'll sleep better not knowing.
Quote: EvenBobYou know nothing about it, which is just as
well. You'll sleep better not knowing.
he just said he uses only betting progressions and money management to beat baccarat.
that's all i need to know to evaluate his play.
Not entirely correct, I place the emphasis on the house to beat my declared odds. Sometimes they do, but that doesn't mean it's game over either, unless they can do it continually.Quote: sodawaterhe just said he uses only betting progressions and money management to beat baccarat.
that's all i need to know to evaluate his play.
Quote: BuzzardNow to say what everyone else is thinking. You are full of shit !
No, all I require are numbers and the math. If you can show what you are doing is +EV you'll be the smartest guy I know.
Quote: egaliteI'm just a very savvy player.
You are no more savvy nor less savvy than any other Baccarat player. You are simply a Baccarat player.
Both will eventually lose of course, but the savvy player will keep trying way longer
Quote: sabreYou are no more savvy nor less savvy than any other Baccarat player. You are simply a Baccarat player.
Every game in the casino can be beaten
to some degree. Like it or don't, it doesn't
matter to those doing it.
Quote: IbeatyouracesAgreed, but not beatable the way he's doing it. Just been, what's the word, "lucky."
He didn't tell you everything he's doing. Why would he.
Quote: onenickelmiracleIf you lost all your money, .
He didn't lose all his money, just what he won
in that session. He plays down under, they
drink too much down there.
I understand, but if is can also be used referencing the future. He mentions being unable to stop because he cannot replace the money he has won and spends on the lifestyle I presume. Even someone I know rich from the stock market lost it almost all in one day thanks to wanting a free Viper.Quote: EvenBobHe didn't lose all his money, just what he won
in that session. He plays down under, they
drink too much down there.
Quote: egalite
Now I want to find a good read, not only to help me lick my wounds, already have got back in the saddle, but I'm limping, however more importantly I want to better arm/educate/awareness/ myself to prevent it happening again. I will check out the book mentioned.
Might I recommend a short story called, "The Ultimate System," for inspiration. It's not finished, yet, but the chapters that are done are pretty okay.
Quote: IbeatyouracesHe doesn't have to. Seen it and heard it for many years.
Impossible, he never says what he does. I've known
him for 8 years, why would he say on a public forum
what he does.
Quote: michael99000I surmise that casinos make more off of savvy players than they make off of people who are smart enough to know they're gonna lose.
Both will eventually lose of course, but the savvy player will keep trying way longer
Oh yeah, definitely. Betting systems are a goldmine for the casino.
