BJ surve messed up

Some of the crapjack (6:5) games are listed with a house edge of less than 1%. And some 3:2 are listed with house edges of more than 1%.

lol. must be a hell of a lot of give and take on the other rules for those tables ot do that- such as 5-card charlie. - im sure thats not the case and its just "unintentional misprint"

I noticed that last night too. The Blackjack survey is messed up. Hey, Mr. Bluejay, we have a problem.

Dang. I made a mistake with the April update. It will be fixed tomorrow.

I don't see any games listed with that defect, so I assume the Wizard has made the corrections. However, this question got me to look at the the list, and I have a different question:

I can understand that some casinos offer 6:5 games at a lower minimum and apparently hope that players will accept the increased edge (if they notice) rather than playing for higher stakes. I don't like this (and don't play it), but I do understand it. But what is the explanation for casinos that offer both games at the same minimum? Who (other than the fool) plays at those tables? Is it just that the good tables stay full and people go to the 6:5 tables rather than not playing?

An example is the Red Rock. If I am reading the table correctly, they have 30 tables with $5 min paying 3:2 and 8 more $5 tables paying 6:5. Do they have any players at those 8 tables? Is there some other important factor I am overlooking?

I fixed the able about 8:00 this morning. It was completely wrong before (sorry).

I, too, will not condemn a casino for offering a 6-5 game at a low minimum, as some other gambling writers I respect do. It isn't profitable to deal a 3-2 game to somebody betting $1-$5. If it were illegal to offer 6-5 games, those players would get shut out of playing.

However, I agree, it seems devious to offer 6-5 at the same limit as 3-2 games. However, why stop there? Why offer the big 6 and 8 bets at 1-1, when the place 6 and 8 bets pay 7-6? Why have a 8-5 video poker table right next to a 7-5? It is never said, but I think the casinos have the lousy games out there to catch the players who don't know any better, and the good ones to compete for the players who know good rules from bad.

Lots of businesses have different price points for the same thing for different customers. Take coupons for example. You might ask, why bother to print a 50-cent coupon, why not just lower the price by 50 cents for everybody? Affluent or lazy customers aren't going to bother clipping and redeeming the coupon, so you get the full price from them, yet the coupon earns the business of the hard-working coupon clipper. It probably is what maximizes total profit, and it is hard to argue with that.

Thanks for the input, Wizard. As for the big 6 and 8 bets, I have never personally seen anyone place a bet on that spot on the felt. That is relevant to my question about whether anyone is actually playing the 6:5 tables at Red Rock. (I have only been out there once and don't know how crowded their blackjack area is.) I figured the big 6 & 8 block was becoming less common on the felt layouts not because casino management ethics was shifting but because it just isn't a relevant thing to bother printing.

I've never seen anyone bet the big 6 or 8 either. Some casinos are using that space for other side bets. However, a frequently made error is betting the any 7 at 4-1, with a house edge of 16.67%. If you divide the bet between the 1-4, 2-5, and 3-4 hop bets at 30-1, the house edge drops to 11.11%, or the overall win on any 7 goes from 12-3 to 13-3. I don't think I've ever heard a dealer recommend doing that.

The 6-5 tables at the Red Rock don't get as much play as the 3-2 tables. I don't specifically think about it, but the 6-5 players look more like tourists than locals.

Quote: Wizard

... the 6-5 players look more like tourists than locals.

Well, way to slur us tourists! :-)

Haha, yeah I've been guilty of playing at 6-5. But you can be assured Wizard, this site makes me scoff at those tables. I agree with you though, for people who aren't willing to go above $5/bet 6-5 BJ is the only way for casinos to amuse them in terms of gambling. From there, people will start looking into the game then only go to the 3-2 tables which have higher limits. I see it kind of like a drug dealer giving someone their first hit of meth for free, knowing they'll come back for more. This way is much more intelligent though, instead of "sucking them in" at a break even game they're making money off of their players from beginning to end.

Well, I think that 6:5 blackjack was approved somewhere around the year 2003, so most of us are resigned that it is going to exist of low minimum games. The bar top electronic games have payed 1:1 for years.

But still Harrah's is working the system. At the Rio they have a double deck game, Hit S17, no doubling after splitting with a $200 minimum that has a 0.53% HA.

For the integrity of the game and the casino's own bottom line, they should adopt an agreement as to what will is required for a game with a $25 minimum or higher. At least a player will know if he plays at that level he has certain guarantees. Doubling after Splitting should always be allowed at that level, and their should be restrictions on the number of decks in a shoe.

According to the survey the following casinos all have $25 minimum games where DAS is not permitted and they all Hit a soft 17.
Bally’s Flamingo Harrahs Paris Rio

Golden Nugget
Hard Rock
Luxor

If Vegas adopts some standards voluntarily it will restore some confidence in the game. I think that at $25 DAS should be permitted, at $50 minimum dealer should stand on a H17, and anything over $100 should be a double deck game where surrender is permitted.

Nevada is not big on such regulation, and neither am I, to be honest with you. The fact that the worst $25 minimum game has a house edge of 0.53% only I think is a sign the system is regulating itself well.

Frank,

In Vegas, unfortunately, the 6-5 blackjack tables are a hit at the low denomination and the presence of the game certainly brings in more money for Vegas than if the same denomination 3-2 games are in there. I think we have to look for another cause of Blackjack's demise in Vegas.

Really, as a proportion of total revenue, Blackjack wasn't performing worse than the other tables games since about October 2008, the beginning of the recession. 6-5 Blackjack has been around for much longer. I would attribute Blackjack's fall directly to the recession and competition from other casinos, not because the 6-5 games are crappy.

I am a firm believer in an absolute free market and that companies/corporations are correct 95% of the time in doing what will bring them the maximum profit both short and long term. Think about it this way, if they took away all the 6-5 tables and other shitty rules - they would probably have to come up with another way to generate revenue... they wouldn't just sit back and take it. In other words, those 6-5 players are paying for some of your amenities as well.

I readily admit (and have done so many times in this very forum) that I am a very low roller. Cheap even. But it has been extremely rare that I have been into a casino and not been able to find some game of interest at a minimum and rules that I can accept. But I don't play 6:5. The only time I ever played it was by mistake, when I didn't see the fine print on the card at the corner of the table. The first BJ that I hit, I was shocked at the payout, got up, and left. Haven't been back to the game and haven't been shut out of playing.

Tonight I will be at the Greenbrier in WV, probably the highest class/price resort I have ever stayed at, and they now have a resort-guests-only casino. If anyone is interested, I will report briefly on what I find there.

Quote: Doc

I don't see any games listed with that defect, so I assume the Wizard has made the corrections. However, this question got me to look at the the list, and I have a different question:

I can understand that some casinos offer 6:5 games at a lower minimum and apparently hope that players will accept the increased edge (if they notice) rather than playing for higher stakes. I don't like this (and don't play it), but I do understand it. But what is the explanation for casinos that offer both games at the same minimum? Who (other than the fool) plays at those tables? Is it just that the good tables stay full and people go to the 6:5 tables rather than not playing?

An example is the Red Rock. If I am reading the table correctly, they have 30 tables with $5 min paying 3:2 and 8 more $5 tables paying 6:5. Do they have any players at those 8 tables? Is there some other important factor I am overlooking?

Doc, the only addition to this is that some casinos, including even some downtown, have been paying 6:5 on their "pleasure-pit/party-pit" games. Some may be willing to pay the extra HA to enjoy the eye candy that these tables offer.

Quote: ruascott

Doc, the only addition to this is that some casinos, including even some downtown, have been paying 6:5 on their "pleasure-pit/party-pit" games. Some may be willing to pay the extra HA to enjoy the eye candy that these tables offer.

Good point. Maybe the Wizard's table needs another column. "Boobies: Y/N"

Quote: Doc

Tonight I will be at the Greenbrier in WV, probably the highest class/price resort I have ever stayed at, and they now have a resort-guests-only casino. If anyone is interested, I will report briefly on what I find there.

Sure, thanks.

Quote: Wizard

I've never seen anyone bet the big 6 or 8 either.

While at Beau Rivage last fall, I asked a craps dealer how many times a week he sees a big 6 or 8 bet. Surprisingly, he said he sees it at least a few times a week.

I asked him why someone would bet the big 6 or 8 instead of placing the 6 or 8. His response? Some people don't want to bet more than the minimum, i.e. put up an extra $1 ($5 table) or $2 ($10 table) even if its a much better payout. How about that!

Quote: Doc

Thanks for the input, Wizard. As for the big 6 and 8 bets, I have never personally seen anyone place a bet on that spot on the felt.

Oh Doc, you need to get out more. Well, maybe not more, but later, errr actually earlier, say around 4:00 AM ;-)
When the inebriated make their way by with those chips burning a hole in their pocket, and that BIG 6 just staring right at them......