Mission146 Articles

Quote: odiousgambit

Good idea for an article, I'll leave some specific comments there too

I noticed a long time ago that slots people overcrowd the reviews for casinos, complaining like hell that they lost. I have to think experienced gamblers learn to disregard these same folk!

Thanks! I thought it would be a fun one! I just hope that if any of those Google reviewers stumble upon it that they don't take my jabs too seriously. It really is meant to be light-hearted, at least, for the most part.

If this gets enough clicks, there will almost definitely be a Part Two.

I'd hope that experienced gamblers disregard those folks, hell, anyone who has played a slot machine more than a dozen times in their entire lives should know to disregard them.

Here's a Review of a reality show that documented the Jacks or Better Riverboat Casino:

https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/riverboat-review/

Certain elements were clearly quite scripted, but it wasn't bad.

Quote: Mission146

Here's a Review of a reality show that documented the Jacks or Better Riverboat Casino:

https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/riverboat-review/

Certain elements were clearly quite scripted, but it wasn't bad.

havent finished reading it yet but about the 3 mile gambling line from US land:
major cruise lines (ie: NCL) use to have cruises to nowhere where they sail out x miles and stay there over night or 2 nights.
it was basically a gambling and eat lots of food cruise.

then US law changed recently (2018?) and all the cruise lines stopped doing it.
no idea how the riverboat casino was allowed to off Florida?

As I mentioned in the comments on the article, I am very familiar with that boat and have spent hundreds of hours on it when it sailed out of Texas. I can answer questions about it if there are any at least as it existed in Texas. Overall the layout seems to be the same with mostly the same machines.

I never sailed on the Jacks or Better, but I did sail on it's Mayport predecessor, the Sun Cruz, and it's replacement, the Victory II (You can read my review of the Victory II here, if you like). The JoB wasn't in town very long. IIRC, it was less than two years.

As for the "reality" show, I agree with your assessment, Mission, that there was some truth to it, but the predominant storyline about Fatboy and the other about the generator stretched the bounds of 'reality.'

Several things stand out to me that make me think the whole Fatboy storyline was completely fabricated:

1) In the first video, Fatboy says, "Hit me," but never taps the table, and the dealer gives him a card. I have never sat at a shoe game table where the dealer doesn't always insist the player make hand signals.

2) When the dealer talks to the pit boss, he turns his head away from the table. Pretty sure this is a big no-no.

3) On the last hand, it appears that the owner is dealing the cards?! Seriously?

4) When I am the fat loudmouth at the table, I am never surrounded by that many beautiful women.

Quote: Joeman

4) When I am the fat loudmouth at the table, I am never surrounded by that many beautiful women.

I have been on that boat for hundreds of hours and never saw many pretty women.

Quote: DRich

As I mentioned in the comments on the article, I am very familiar with that boat and have spent hundreds of hours on it when it sailed out of Texas. I can answer questions about it if there are any at least as it existed in Texas. Overall the layout seems to be the same with mostly the same machines.

Do you have any idea if the machines were all set to the lowest possible manufacturer setting? What were the VP paytables like? It sounds like the Blackjack rules were at least within reason, how about the other Table Games?

Quote: Mission146

Do you have any idea if the machines were all set to the lowest possible manufacturer setting? What were the VP paytables like? It sounds like the Blackjack rules were at least within reason, how about the other Table Games?

Mission146,

I posted the following on the bj21 South page back in 2017:

Jacks or Better Casino Cruise: Galveston, TX

Galveston recently (in April, 2017) began hosting a casino cruise ship named Jacks or Better, operated by a company called Cruises To Nowhere, LLC. According to https://www.worldcasinodirectory.com/casino/aransas-queen-casino-tx, this ship used to sail out of Myrtle Beach, SC, and then Jacksonville, FL. Later, it moved to Aransas Pass, TX (and changed its name to Aransas Queen). When it relocated to Galveston, the name was changed back to the original Jacks or Better.

The casino's website is http://jacksorbettercasino.com/. Note, though, that the website contains many inaccuracies.

The cost to board is $15 per person plus taxes, with a slight discount for booking online. This cost includes two free alcoholic beverages during the outbound trip.

The ship supposedly sails daily, but I learned that they won't sail if they have fewer than 30 reservations. The day I went out, they had about 40, so the facilities were not crowded at all. They also won't sail if the seas are too rough, so the website has a link showing the sea conditions. I advise calling before you go to be sure they'll be sailing.

The cruise lasts 6.5 to 7 hours, but the first and last 1.5 hours the casino is closed as the ship makes its way to and from the 9-mile limit. Thus, the actual gambling time is 3.5 to 4 hours. The cashier does stay open during a portion of the return trip.

As for the layout, the deck plan (see http://jacksorbettercasino.com/articles/jacks_or_better_casino_deck_plans.pdf) is woefully out-of-date. In fact, the deck 1 is entirely slots, and all the table games are on deck 2. The total number of tables games appears to be nine: 4 blackjack (though one many have been baccarat), 1 three-card poker, 2 roulette, 1 craps, and 1 proprietary game called Shootout Poker in which the players play against one another and against the house. When I sailed only five tables were open: two BJ and one each of 3CP, roulette, and craps.

For the mobility-challenged, the casino does not have an elevator, but does have a chair lift on one of the staircases to get between deck 1 and deck 2.

The BJ is 8D, H17, DA2, DAS with reasonable pen (I saw cutoffs of 1.25 to 1.5 decks) and limits of $5-$100 and $10-$200. Note that the website claims S17 and $5-$500 limits. The PC indicated that he did have a $500 limit sign, so perhaps they'll raise the limit upon request.

The ship also had a number of Game King video poker machines, but the pay tables were all very poor (for example, 6-5 JoB for 95% return) at all denominations.

The staff were all very friendly, and the ala carte food was pretty good. Most of the experienced players chose to eat during the return trip, which makes sense, since the casino was closed during the last 1.5 hours.

Dog Hand

Additional information: I had to flash government ID to board; the BJ tables used an ASM, and while I didn't vomit (though some of the other passengers did), I did feel quite queasy on the outbound leg.

Dog Hand

Dog Hand,

Thanks for sharing the great review of the ship! If nothing else, I'm pretty surprised that the cutoff for sailing was as low as thirty, even with big house edges, it's tough to imagine how the overall operation would be profitable on only thirty people playing for 3.5-4 hours.

In your recollection (and also for DRich), were there any, 'High-rollers,' when you guys were on there? Say consistent $50-$100/hand bettors? Do people usually take a shot at a huge bet when it's announced that the gambling operation are about to close up for the night?

If it takes 1.5 hours to get out far enough, what do the people who aren't eating yet do until then? Does everyone just kind of sit around for an hour and a half?

Apparently, 6/5 JoB can be found in Vegas at the $5 denomination sometimes, so it must not be that bad. (This is a joke, though true about being found in Vegas, see Planet Hollywood thread)

Quote: Mission146

Do you have any idea if the machines were all set to the lowest possible manufacturer setting? What were the VP paytables like? It sounds like the Blackjack rules were at least within reason, how about the other Table Games?

Surprisingly, the machines were not as bad as they could have been. The video slots were around 90% and the video poker was poor at around 96%. There was "mistakenly" one full pay Deuces Wild game,

Quote: DRich

Surprisingly, the machines were not as bad as they could have been. The video slots were around 90% and the video poker was poor at around 96%. There was "mistakenly" one full pay Deuces Wild game,

Did they do any free play or other mail comps?

Quote: Mission146

Did they do any free play or other mail comps?

Yes, $5 to $100 free play but not very often.

Greetings!

There's nowhere to really tack this on to a thread, but I take a deep dive into MLM (Multi-Level Marketing) companies, the one time that just having a job is a gamble.

What makes it a gamble?

-No guaranteed income.

-Time investment with no guaranteed return.

-Sometimes you have to pay just to start selling another company's products.

-If there's any money to be made, it's usually by creating your own sales competition! (Yes, really, read the article to see what I mean)

Do you know anyone who has sold for an MLM? Have you ever done it yourself? Did you have any success?

https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/the-mlm-gamble/

I worked briefly for two different MLM companies as a yout.

The first one, I got dragged into it by my gf at the time. She was involved with it, so I was too for a short period of time.

The second one I joined specifically with the intent of figuring out how the guy who had started it was doing it, to then start my own MLM. I decided against it, and later, the guy who had started that MLM was shut down, sued by the FTC and left with just one Rolex and one or two nice houses in Florida. Oh, tragedy, but compared to what he had before, that was peanuts.

I don't think there are too many MLMs that have long term survived the "anti front loading" actions by regulatory agencies. Amway and Herbalife are two who have survived. I think NSA is still around too. Front loading is where the MLM is pushing its agents more to just buy up stock to achieve a higher discount rate within the MLM than to sell anything actually. And, statistically speaking, I think that most of the inventory that people involved with MLMs acquire ends up unsold in their garages or trunks of their cars.

The theory of MLM is to just get 3 new customers a week, and have each of those 3 in turn get 3 new customers a week. If this carries on, you'll get insanely rich from your downstream. The problem is that the entire population of the Earth is exhausted after something like 11 weeks of such theoretical expansion. But the guy at the top, is making money hand over fist, which gets back to why I wanted to start my own MLM.

My mom sold Amway, circa 1973-76. It seemed like she was more successful selling on the army bases we lived on than when we lived in the world. I liked the products myself. My sister sold Avon for a bit around this time and it seemed like easy money, although it was pocket money.
Around 1983/84, a friend who was selling coke on the side decided to get into a new MLM called NuSkin(?) in order to appear legit. To his surprise, the products were popular and it turned into a fulltime job for his girlfriend. It was fairly comical. Somebody would show up for an eighth and end up walking out with a skin care package to boot.
His girlfriend was pretty aggressive, ended up having a bunch of sellers working under her and some of the checks she got were rather impressive. I don't recall numbers but it was a good income for 1985. They moved to another neighborhood and I saw them less and less but he still had both business's going well into the 1990s. His parents both died within a year and he and his brother inherited their hardware store and several rental properties. He sold his share to his brother and moved to Vegas. I never heard from him and my half-assed attempts to find him when I lived in Henderson were unsuccessful. Like most of my friends, he has almost zero social media presence.

Quote: MDawg

I worked briefly for two different MLM companies as a yout.

The first one, I got dragged into it by my gf at the time. She was involved with it, so I was too for a short period of time.

The second one I joined specifically with the intent of figuring out how the guy who had started it was doing it, to then start my own MLM. I decided against it, and later, the guy who had started that MLM was shut down, sued by the FTC and left with just one Rolex and one or two nice houses in Florida. Oh, tragedy, but compared to what he had before, that was peanuts.

In theory, what sort of goods or services were being sold at each of them? Roughly what year did the FTC come after the guy and do you know what practices were causing him to draw the scrutiny to begin with?

Quote:

I don't think there are too many MLMs that have long term survived the "anti front loading" actions by regulatory agencies. Amway and Herbalife are two who have survived. I think NSA is still around too. Front loading is where the MLM is pushing its agents more to just buy up stock to achieve a higher discount rate within the MLM than to sell anything actually. And, statistically speaking, I think that most of the inventory that people involved with MLMs acquire ends up unsold in their garages or trunks of their cars.

My article touches on Herbalife and one of those policies is that, if you quit selling for them, then (in theory) you can return any unopened product that was purchased within the last year and get a refund on it. I have no idea how many hoops one has to shimmy through to successfully do that process, but I'm not going to claim any because I have no clue.

That's true, I linked to Youtuber Illuminaughtii who talked about someone who ended up with a garage full of crap, but I forget which of the videos it was and I think she was just repeating what was said on some third-party site.

Steeper discounts and I imaging ordering from yourself counts as a, "Sale," which might put you into a higher commission bracket for those MLM's that do a straight commission model. Herbalife appears (to me) to be a company in which you buy the inventory and then try to sell it for something that middles what you paid for it and their retail price.

Quote:

The theory of MLM is to just get 3 new customers a week, and have each of those 3 in turn get 3 new customers a week. If this carries on, you'll get insanely rich from your downstream. The problem is that the entire population of the Earth is exhausted after something like 11 weeks of such theoretical expansion. But the guy at the top, is making money hand over fist, which gets back to why I wanted to start my own MLM.

Yup! I found that, according to Avon themselves, something like 1 in 43 citizens of the United States sell Avon.

I really don't know how I feel about it. On the one hand, anyone with just the slightest shred of reason and objectivity can clearly tell why hopping on with an MLM probably isn't going to work, and they are responsible for their own decisions. On the other hand, is there ever a point where you say, "Tricking (sometimes stupid) people in this way should be illegal?"

Quote: billryan

My mom sold Amway, circa 1973-76. It seemed like she was more successful selling on the army bases we lived on than when we lived in the world. I liked the products myself. My sister sold Avon for a bit around this time and it seemed like easy money, although it was pocket money.

That's a good point on the pocket money! It seems like it's fine if you can make a little bit with minimal time investment and could even be good for social networking, such as, "Tupperware parties," and things of that nature. I imagine that some church ladies can also make a little change, just by virtue of having many people who they know relatively personally and can sell to them.

The army base seems good because you have a group of people who tend to look out for their own and are also a social network that is built-in to where you live.

Quote:

Around 1983/84, a friend who was selling coke on the side decided to get into a new MLM called NuSkin(?) in order to appear legit. To his surprise, the products were popular and it turned into a fulltime job for his girlfriend. It was fairly comical. Somebody would show up for an eighth and end up walking out with a skin care package to boot.

It probably was NuSkin; it looks like they are still around. That's pretty funny about the NuSkin. I think that's another example of just having...um, we'll call it a social network...sort of built in to what you do.

Quote:

His girlfriend was pretty aggressive, ended up having a bunch of sellers working under her and some of the checks she got were rather impressive. I don't recall numbers but it was a good income for 1985. They moved to another neighborhood and I saw them less and less but he still had both business's going well into the 1990s. His parents both died within a year and he and his brother inherited their hardware store and several rental properties. He sold his share to his brother and moved to Vegas. I never heard from him and my half-assed attempts to find him when I lived in Henderson were unsuccessful. Like most of my friends, he has almost zero social media presence.

link to original post

I believe it. It's all about creating that downline.

I think it would be better if all of these things were repped as, for most people, maybe making a little extra money. The problem I see is when some people are convincing others that these massive commissions can be made and convince them to quit full-time jobs to sell some overpriced retail item, or some such.

Yes, Herbalife's no questions asked refund policy for end users is, I understand, part of the reason why they (1) avoided regulatory action, but also (2) why Herbalife distributors started making a lot less money. I suppose that if they have an additional policy about distributors being able to return unopened merchandise, that helps too - but, if the end buyer opens the product, uses it, doesn't lose weight and then is entitled to a refund, where does that leave the distributor, who ends up with returned, opened product? Is the distributor entitled to a refund from Herbalife for the opened product that he was forced to refund to the end user?

I am not sure, but I thought that Herbalife became less and less popular with the general American public and more and more popular with the Spanish speaking segment?

As far as the guy who was shut down, he worked for a water filtration multilevel company first, and then started off selling his own water filters, but later expanded to selling about everything. He was on track to be one of the fastest growing companies in the U.S. before he was shut down completely around 2000. Being accused of front loading is the MLM equivalent of being accused of a ponzi scam.

You know how every now and then in town one of these ponzi scams starts up where people put in money and just need to find enough investors to cash out and move on? If you look closely, MLM isn't all that different from such schemes, except that actual product is involved for sale. With MLM for every person who makes money a dozen have lost and supported the winner's downstream, by buying product that never sold, thereby sending money upstream. And as well, MLM sellers aren't just looking for end user buyers, they are hoping that the end user buyers will convert to sellers, sold on the idea that the product is great and they will make money buying it at a discount and re-selling it.

See here's the thing - unless you buy into that whatever the MLM is selling is somehow "unique" (it isn't), no matter how much of a discount you get on the item it will never sell for less than you would be able to find the identical or near identical item at some direct sale, non MLM source.

But again, if you have the energy to proselytize and are able to sleep at night knowing you are fleecing the general public, MLMs are huge money makers for those on top. But MLM participants don't make the real money from simply selling product to end users - they need converts, to buy lots of product and try to sell under them, as part of their downstream.

The show "On becoming a God in South Florida" revolves around an imaginary MLM line.

On Becoming a God in Central Florida. This dark comedy series stars Kirsten Dunst as Krystal Stubbs, a minimum-wage water park employee who lies, schemes and cons her way up the ranks of the cultish, multibillion-dollar pyramid scheme that drove her family to ruin in the first place.

I didn't realize that Avon was considered a MLM. I remember my mother buying Avon from a friend but she never was involved with it.

Quote: DRich

I didn't realize that Avon was considered a MLM. I remember my mother buying Avon from a friend but she never was involved with it.

link to original post

I think it was one of the original MLMs.

mission,
link to mlm article?

Quote: MDawg

Yes, Herbalife's no questions asked refund policy for end users is, I understand, part of the reason why they (1) avoided regulatory action, but also (2) why Herbalife distributors started making a lot less money. I suppose that if they have an additional policy about distributors being able to return unopened merchandise, that helps too - but, if the end buyer opens the product, uses it, doesn't lose weight and then is entitled to a refund, where does that leave the distributor, who ends up with returned, opened product? Is the distributor entitled to a refund from Herbalife for the opened product that he was forced to refund to the end user?

I don't know the answer to that, but I can answer for how that worked in the furniture store, which was a legitimate commissioned job that also came with an hourly pay.

Basically, the company would take any returns (or cancellations) and the commission that you made on those sales would come off of the commissions for whatever pay period you were in. I didn't want to get too far in the weeds, but that's another reason that I focused on mattresses---the deliveries were usually handled on time (and within a few days!), the product almost never arrived with any damages and almost nobody ever wanted to return it.

The big problem that we had with wood and upholstery was that garbage was coming from China and whether or not it would arrive with some sort of damage (or, really, how closely the customer would scrutinize it in the first seven days) was a complete coin flip. Secondly, most of the garbage was backordered to death and we basically KNEW that they weren't getting it when we told them (and the computers told us) that they were. I actually lost a few sales (deliberately), or alternatively, sold lower priced tables and buffets in October because the customers were hosting Thanksgiving and wanted to make absolutely sure they had these nice pieces for their families to see.

There's no way I was going to guarantee delivery by the date the system was guaranteeing it to us...because I knew that wasn't happening 80% of the time...so I would try to save some kind of sale by talking them into something in stock. If they didn't like the pieces that were in stock, then I basically did everything to hint (without actually saying it---because I would be fired) that the item wasn't coming by the date in our system, and even if it did, the first one they got would almost certainly be damaged. This company would actually hold damaged in warehouse and try to re-deliver it to a different customer (often more than once) before it would finally hit one of the outlet stores to be sold at a discount.

Anyway, if anything ended up returned or cancelled, then the commissions earned (and already paid) for the item would come off of your commissions for the current pay period. The only saving grace was that it had to be THAT pay period, so they couldn't keep carrying it over until it was made up.***

What we would usually do is try to set it up with each other so that you'd, "Hang onto," all of your cancellations/returns and put them in the system in the beginning of one pay period. For that pay period, you would sell absolutely nothing on your own account, usually splitting the sales (or helping one guy exclusively) selling under his associate number. When he got paid, he'd pay you half of the commissions that you had earned and then you'd do the same for him when he, "Hung onto," returns and cancellations and did the other sales on your associate number.

You're also probably going to tank for a month doing it this way and come in the bottom two for that month, so you had to be careful. Of course, you knew you weren't going to be in the bottom two for the month when it came time for him to sell on your associate number.

Anyway, I imagine it works the same way with Herbalife...except you don't actually get paid an hourly, or anything. I can't say for sure, but I imagine that you lose the commissions and get an invoice that is actually a bill that you have to pay...unless your commissions on new sales for whatever period already covered it.

Quote:

I am not sure, but I thought that Herbalife became less and less popular with the general American public and more and more popular with the Spanish speaking segment?

Um...I think that's true. I know there was one MLM that was very popular with the Hispanic community, but I don't recall if it was that one.

Quote:

As far as the guy who was shut down, he worked for a water filtration multilevel company first, and then started off selling his own water filters, but later expanded to selling about everything. He was on track to be one of the fastest growing companies in the U.S. before he was shut down completely around 2000. Being accused of front loading is the MLM equivalent of being accused of a ponzi scam.

Ha! Was that the one with the water filters that were actually actively adding bacteria to the water if they were installed without being properly cleaned first?

Quote:

You know how every now and then in town one of these ponzi scams starts up where people put in money and just need to find enough investors to cash out and move on? If you look closely, MLM isn't all that different from such schemes, except that actual product is involved for sale. With MLM for every person who makes money a dozen have lost and supported the winner's downstream, by buying product that never sold, thereby sending money upstream. And as well, MLM sellers aren't just looking for end user buyers, they are hoping that the end user buyers will convert to sellers, sold on the idea that the product is great and they will make money buying it at a discount and re-selling it.

That's all correct and covered in my article...the only difference between some (most?) of them and the legal definition of, "Pyramid scheme," is that there is an actual product or service that is, at least in theory, being sold to retail consumers.

I think someone did end up with boxes and boxes of useless and expired water filters in the garage. Maybe it was that one. I know of some Chinese MLM where people ended up with boxes and boxes of ants!

Quote:

See here's the thing - unless you buy into that whatever the MLM is selling is somehow "unique" (it isn't), no matter how much of a discount you get on the item it will never sell for less than you would be able to find the identical or near identical item at some direct sale, non MLM source.

I agree completely and covered that in my article. I might have cherry-picked, but I used one of Avon's more expensive makeup products as an example.

Quote:

But again, if you have the energy to proselytize and are able to sleep at night knowing you are fleecing the general public, MLMs are huge money makers for those on top. But MLM participants don't make the real money from simply selling product to end users - they need converts, to buy lots of product and try to sell under them, as part of their downstream.

link to original post

I agree 100% and covered that.

***ADDED---Also, they couldn't touch your hourly under any circumstance.

Quote: DRich

I didn't realize that Avon was considered a MLM. I remember my mother buying Avon from a friend but she never was involved with it.

link to original post

Big time MLM! Second-largest (only to Amway) by revenue, for US-based MLM's, I believe.

Quote: billryan

The show "On becoming a God in South Florida" revolves around an imaginary MLM line.

On Becoming a God in Central Florida. This dark comedy series stars Kirsten Dunst as Krystal Stubbs, a minimum-wage water park employee who lies, schemes and cons her way up the ranks of the cultish, multibillion-dollar pyramid scheme that drove her family to ruin in the first place.

link to original post

Thanks! I might look for that one day. I used to have a crush on Kirsten Dunst (she's slightly older than me) when I was a kid.

Quote: 100xOdds

mission,
link to mlm article?

link to original post

Haha!!! Oops. Thanks! I also added it to my original post.

https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/the-mlm-gamble/

Quote: Mission146

Quote: billryan

The show "On becoming a God in South Florida" revolves around an imaginary MLM line.

On Becoming a God in Central Florida. This dark comedy series stars Kirsten Dunst as Krystal Stubbs, a minimum-wage water park employee who lies, schemes and cons her way up the ranks of the cultish, multibillion-dollar pyramid scheme that drove her family to ruin in the first place.

link to original post

Thanks! I might look for that one day. I used to have a crush on Kirsten Dunst (she's slightly older than me) when I was a kid.

link to original post

It's a fun show.

Quote: Mission146

Quote: 100xOdds

mission,
link to mlm article?

link to original post

Haha!!! Oops. Thanks! I also added it to my original post.

https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/the-mlm-gamble/

link to original post

regarding you paying company when you start the job:
insurance salesman

you pay the company to send you to training.

yeah, it's as scammy as mlm.
yes, there are successful people but the vast majority dont make it just like in mlm

Thanks for the example; I didn’t know that. There is actually an insurance MLM; I wonder what the difference is? Downline, I guess.

When I opened my first comic store, I had no retail experience and it turned out I didn't know comics as well as I thought I did. I made plenty of mistakes and when a customer expressed interest in buying it, I jumped on the opportunity. Unburdened from my past mistakes, I scouted the NY area ,found what I thought were the three best run shops and volunteered my services to the owners. I explained I wasn't looking for a job, but I'd work for them for three weeks in return for them training me how they run their shops. Two took me up and I spent the summer commuting almost an hour to an unpaid internship but after eight weeks I was ready to open my own store again.
A couple of years later, when restoring comics was becoming big money, I found the best restorer I could find and spent five days learning the trade. It ended up costing me almost $3,000 but I got hands on classes from the best in the business. It must have taken me three or four years to make back that money, but the last twenty five years have been pure gravy.

Greetings!

People are selling books on how to beat slots now, are they?

https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/slots-systems-and-scammers/

Quote: Mission146

Greetings!

People are selling books on how to beat slots now, are they?

https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/slots-systems-and-scammers/

link to original post

Why let the casinos do all the fleecing? I once had a man hand me twenty white chips and a red. He told me to keep the red but add the whites to my bets and play for him.
As it was Sic Bo, he could have easily simply copied my bets but he felt I could do better with the bets then he could. Why argue?

Quote: billryan

Why let the casinos do all the fleecing? I once had a man hand me twenty white chips and a red. He told me to keep the red but add the whites to my bets and play for him.
As it was Sic Bo, he could have easily simply copied my bets but he felt I could do better with the bets then he could. Why argue?

link to original post

Beat casinos, not people.

Buy Deer, Sell Sheep.

BDSS!

Another News and Notes now that some stuff is finally going on again:

https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/news-and-notes-10-4-2021/

Quote: Mission146

Another News and Notes now that some stuff is finally going on again:

https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/news-and-notes-10-4-2021/

link to original post

I think we both know there is convenience gambling in Pennsylvania. Are those locations under a different reporting category?

Quote: Dieter

Quote: Mission146

Another News and Notes now that some stuff is finally going on again:

https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/news-and-notes-10-4-2021/

link to original post

I think we both know there is convenience gambling in Pennsylvania. Are those locations under a different reporting category?

link to original post

The Skill Games or the truck stops?

There are a few truck stops that are licensed to have VLT's, but they have to meet certain criteria and are very small in total count. Among other things, they have to have certain amenities and a certain percentage of their revenues have to be fuel sales.

When I talk about convenience gambling in WV, I mean that you will literally have a bunch of bars or VLT parlors, all with 5-7 machines apiece, on the same street. If you see one with anywhere from 8-10, then it is considered a private club and they are permitted to have as many as ten.

Quote: Mission146

Quote: Dieter

Quote: Mission146

Another News and Notes now that some stuff is finally going on again:

https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/news-and-notes-10-4-2021/

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I think we both know there is convenience gambling in Pennsylvania. Are those locations under a different reporting category?

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The Skill Games or the truck stops?

There are a few truck stops that are licensed to have VLT's, but they have to meet certain criteria and are very small in total count. Among other things, they have to have certain amenities and a certain percentage of their revenues have to be fuel sales.

When I talk about convenience gambling in WV, I mean that you will literally have a bunch of bars or VLT parlors, all with 5-7 machines apiece, on the same street. If you see one with anywhere from 8-10, then it is considered a private club and they are permitted to have as many as ten.

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if there was anyone who i believed that cared about the people over the industry more than you i would say nay to them. and fight them to the death in order to prove them wrong.

Quote: Mission146

Quote: Dieter

Quote: Mission146

Another News and Notes now that some stuff is finally going on again:

https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/news-and-notes-10-4-2021/

link to original post

I think we both know there is convenience gambling in Pennsylvania. Are those locations under a different reporting category?

link to original post

The Skill Games or the truck stops?

There are a few truck stops that are licensed to have VLT's, but they have to meet certain criteria and are very small in total count. Among other things, they have to have certain amenities and a certain percentage of their revenues have to be fuel sales.

When I talk about convenience gambling in WV, I mean that you will literally have a bunch of bars or VLT parlors, all with 5-7 machines apiece, on the same street. If you see one with anywhere from 8-10, then it is considered a private club and they are permitted to have as many as ten.

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Very true. I haven't seen strip mall slot parlors in Pennsylvania the way I have elsewhere, like Illinois.

PA Skill and OH Skill barely count as slots; they seem to be in the same category as old Cherry Masters that were installed in bars, albeit with a generally improved redemption mechanism.

Thank you for the clarification.

Quote: heatmap

if there was anyone who i believed that cared about the people over the industry more than you i would say nay to them. and fight them to the death in order to prove them wrong.

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That's one hell of a nice compliment, thank you!

Quote: Dieter

Very true. I haven't seen strip mall slot parlors in Pennsylvania the way I have elsewhere, like Illinois.

PA Skill and OH Skill barely count as slots; they seem to be in the same category as old Cherry Masters that were installed in bars, albeit with a generally improved redemption mechanism.

Thank you for the clarification.

link to original post

You're welcome! The states that you will find with similar places to West Virginia are Illinois, as you mentioned. Also included are states such as Montana (though some of those are bars and some are basically mini-casinos---and sometimes have way more machines), Oregon, Nevada (with places like Dotty's and video poker bars) and South Dakota (which some people wouldn't expect as they might think all gambling is in Deadwood).

There are some other states, such as Oklahoma, in which Native American Tribes may have Tribal Casinos by compact, but many of these are small enough just to basically be slot parlors and, similar to the Commercial VLT's in Pennsylvania, are often located in truck stops.

Beyond those, there are a few other states that have VLT's, but those are often in states in which they must be connected to a racetrack (such as Ohio---and Kansas could legally do the same thing, but I don't know that any are actually operating in Kansas. States such as New York also have their VLT's regulated through the lottery in their actual casinos, I believe.

The Ohio Skill games, if they pay out in cash, are definitely illegal in most instances. In fact, four locations with these purported, "Skill," machines were recently raided. There was also a major statewide crackdown right around the time that the casinos and racinos started to open---imagine that! It's usually a cycle of a few operators, often bars, putting a single machine or two in the backroom that doesn't get much attention, but then the crackdowns happen when people get brazen about it and start opening locations that basically exist only to offer the machines. Unlike in PA, some locations in these Ohio with the so-called, "Skill Games," occasionally have no features whatsoever that would distinguish them from a slot machine to the casual player. The only unique feature about them is that they have a particular cycle of results that just repeats forever.

The Pennsylvania Skill Games are all over the place. Many have the, "Next Puzzle," and, "Prize Viewer," features, but some don't. Any that I have seen require some sort of player input that can partially impact the result of the spin. They are not as decidedly illegal as the ones in Ohio, but they certainly are not licensed, regulated and cannot be considered legal. They exist in a gray area. As mentioned in the article, a DA for one of the counties, in conjunction with the state police, had several machines removed from several locations. The Lottery Department considers them illegal, of course.

The Cherry Master machines (which will usually just be in bars/lounges and will only be one or two machines) are flatly illegal, but mostly ignored. Many bars have signage saying they are, "For amusement only," which is often true unless you are a regular or person known to them. Some bars always treat them as amusement only, so some of them don't even have a slot capable of printing tickets. Some bars will always pay out on them, but again, that's mostly ignored as long as they are not openly advertising them.

Believe it or not, the PA liquor board is more ticked off about the bars with Skill Games than they are the Cherry Masters---which they themselves mostly disregard. I think that's maybe because the bars cannot even make the claim that the Skill Games are amusement only.

As with Ohio, I would think those games would mostly be ignored if there weren't locations opening ONLY for the purpose of having those games and if they didn't make a big production out of advertising them. Cops will usually turn a blind eye to things like that unless you don't really give them a choice but to address it.

In this article:

https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/casino-game-review-four-kings/

I actually review a new game for a change! This one is the Four Kings Casino and Slots, which is available on Steam, Nintendo Switch, XBox Whatever The Newest One Is and Playstation 4.

I played the Nintendo Switch version, so feel free to click and get my opinion on the game as well as to leave a comment either here or the article---especially if you have also tried it!

Quote: Mission146

Quote: Dieter

Very true. I haven't seen strip mall slot parlors in Pennsylvania the way I have elsewhere, like Illinois.

PA Skill and OH Skill barely count as slots; they seem to be in the same category as old Cherry Masters that were installed in bars, albeit with a generally improved redemption mechanism.

Thank you for the clarification.

link to original post

You're welcome! The states that you will find with similar places to West Virginia are Illinois, as you mentioned. Also included are states such as Montana (though some of those are bars and some are basically mini-casinos---and sometimes have way more machines), Oregon, Nevada (with places like Dotty's and video poker bars) and South Dakota (which some people wouldn't expect as they might think all gambling is in Deadwood).

There are some other states, such as Oklahoma, in which Native American Tribes may have Tribal Casinos by compact, but many of these are small enough just to basically be slot parlors and, similar to the Commercial VLT's in Pennsylvania, are often located in truck stops.

Beyond those, there are a few other states that have VLT's, but those are often in states in which they must be connected to a racetrack (such as Ohio---and Kansas could legally do the same thing, but I don't know that any are actually operating in Kansas. States such as New York also have their VLT's regulated through the lottery in their actual casinos, I believe.

The Ohio Skill games, if they pay out in cash, are definitely illegal in most instances. In fact, four locations with these purported, "Skill," machines were recently raided. There was also a major statewide crackdown right around the time that the casinos and racinos started to open---imagine that! It's usually a cycle of a few operators, often bars, putting a single machine or two in the backroom that doesn't get much attention, but then the crackdowns happen when people get brazen about it and start opening locations that basically exist only to offer the machines. Unlike in PA, some locations in these Ohio with the so-called, "Skill Games," occasionally have no features whatsoever that would distinguish them from a slot machine to the casual player. The only unique feature about them is that they have a particular cycle of results that just repeats forever.

The Pennsylvania Skill Games are all over the place. Many have the, "Next Puzzle," and, "Prize Viewer," features, but some don't. Any that I have seen require some sort of player input that can partially impact the result of the spin. They are not as decidedly illegal as the ones in Ohio, but they certainly are not licensed, regulated and cannot be considered legal. They exist in a gray area. As mentioned in the article, a DA for one of the counties, in conjunction with the state police, had several machines removed from several locations. The Lottery Department considers them illegal, of course.

The Cherry Master machines (which will usually just be in bars/lounges and will only be one or two machines) are flatly illegal, but mostly ignored. Many bars have signage saying they are, "For amusement only," which is often true unless you are a regular or person known to them. Some bars always treat them as amusement only, so some of them don't even have a slot capable of printing tickets. Some bars will always pay out on them, but again, that's mostly ignored as long as they are not openly advertising them.

Believe it or not, the PA liquor board is more ticked off about the bars with Skill Games than they are the Cherry Masters---which they themselves mostly disregard. I think that's maybe because the bars cannot even make the claim that the Skill Games are amusement only.

As with Ohio, I would think those games would mostly be ignored if there weren't locations opening ONLY for the purpose of having those games and if they didn't make a big production out of advertising them. Cops will usually turn a blind eye to things like that unless you don't really give them a choice but to address it.

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I had a friend that owned a bar in Pittsburgh and he was making $1000 a week off of his two machines in the 1980's. He would get shut down, pay the fine, and have them back the next week.

Quote: DRich

I had a friend that owned a bar in Pittsburgh and he was making $1000 a week off of his two machines in the 1980's. He would get shut down, pay the fine, and have them back the next week.

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That's the way to do it! Why would he get shut down---inspections or someone who lost reporting him from time to time?

Quote: Mission146

Quote: DRich

I had a friend that owned a bar in Pittsburgh and he was making $1000 a week off of his two machines in the 1980's. He would get shut down, pay the fine, and have them back the next week.

link to original post

That's the way to do it! Why would he get shut down---inspections or someone who lost reporting him from time to time?

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I would guess a patron reporting him. He said those two machines would make him more profit than the bar did for the year.

Here's a review of a 1999 book on smart gambling, by Andy Glazer, called, "Casino Gambling the Smart Way," so feel free to check this out to see how it holds up today and whether or not you'd want to put it on your reading list.

The middle section of the review is a chapter-by-chapter breakdown, so feel free to just read the introduction and then skip down to, "Overall Thoughts," and the Conclusion. After that, you can decide whether or not you want to read the chapter-by-chapter breakdown for more specific critiques.

https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/casino-gambling-the-smart-way-review/

Quote: Mission146

Quote: Dieter

Quote: Mission146

Another News and Notes now that some stuff is finally going on again:

https://wizardofvegas.com/articles/news-and-notes-10-4-2021/

link to original post

I think we both know there is convenience gambling in Pennsylvania. Are those locations under a different reporting category?

link to original post

The Skill Games or the truck stops?

There are a few truck stops that are licensed to have VLT's, but they have to meet certain criteria and are very small in total count. Among other things, they have to have certain amenities and a certain percentage of their revenues have to be fuel sales.

When I talk about convenience gambling in WV, I mean that you will literally have a bunch of bars or VLT parlors, all with 5-7 machines apiece, on the same street. If you see one with anywhere from 8-10, then it is considered a private club and they are permitted to have as many as ten.
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Is that when they call it a "cafe?"

Some of them are called cafes. The coffee is often Folgers and there are no specialty coffee drinks. They maybe have decaf if you ask politely.

Quote: Mission146

Some of them are called cafes. The coffee is often Folgers and there are no specialty coffee drinks. They maybe have decaf if you ask politely.
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Someone once told me if it says "cafe" in WV it meant they have machines. On the road to Mountaineer every other places seems to say "cafe" on the sign.

Quote: AZDuffman

Someone once told me if it says "cafe" in WV it meant they have machines. On the road to Mountaineer every other places seems to say "cafe" on the sign.
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It almost always does mean that. I was just making a joke to the effect that such is not what cafe usually means.