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Quote: SonuvabishBuzz tho, has allows been allowed to troll, so since he wasn't doing anything out of the ordinary, he may have honestly thought he was not doing anything wrong.
If repeatedly alluding to the fact that he'd inevitably be Suspended is indicative of thinking he wasn't doing anything that would get him Suspended, then I agree with you.
Quote: Mission146If repeatedly alluding to the fact that he'd inevitably be Suspended is indicative of thinking he wasn't doing anything that would get him Suspended, then I agree with you.
LOL...I think we agree to agree. I think he thought he had diplomatic immunity.
Quote: SonuvabishLOL...I think we agree to agree. I think he thought he had diplomatic immunity.
I think you're wrong about what Buzz thought. It appears to me, in reading his many posts, that Buzz was upset about the sale, went looking for a fight, and found one. He'll be unbanned in 3 days and can discuss it further if he wants to.
Quote: DJTeddyBearFor the record, he was very much a gentleman at the G2E dinner.
You mean Wiz or Buzz?
Quote: pokerfaceYou mean Wiz or Buzz?
LOL
Quote: pokerfaceYou mean Wiz or Buzz?
Now that you mention it, the Wiz WAS terrorizing the hostesses with trivia queations. But that's ok. They enjoyed it.
Quote: beachbumbabsI think you're wrong about what Buzz thought. It appears to me, in reading his many posts, that Buzz was upset about the sale, went looking for a fight, and found one. He'll be unbanned in 3 days and can discuss it further if he wants to.
It sounds like you are describing Buzz's suspension as voluntary, like suicide by cop. Buzzard--malum prohibitum. kevintracy (or his creator)--malum in se. I've seen Buzz act the same way before, which leads me to believe he didn't think a banning would be justifiable...in fact, I think he may have thought doing so would be hypocritical, which was a running theme.
I went thru his posts. He complains a bit about the sale, with a sense of foreboding of the future. At some point, Zuga aggressively responds to him, and states he is in all his posts. Although Buzz appears to be be questioning Zuga's motives excessively, that statement isn't true--Buzz is either merely reporting factual information, or making up harmless fantasy for humor in the posts that do include Zuga. Buzz respectfully disagrees with everything he Zuga says, occasionally throwing in a joke that may be a barb--but they are incomprehensible as far as I can tell, so should be ignored. Buzz promises to quit posting on the topic, but Zuga aggressively responds to that post and every other, which is an obvious equal cause to further discord. Buzz ambiguously says Mike earned his respect; Zuga takes it out of context by assigning definitive negative meaning to it, and says Buzz admitted he had no respect for Zuga. Prior to the argument which led to suspension, Buzz jokingly suggested if trolling is not clearly defined, that he, and even Bob Evans (EvenBob), could face lifetime suspensions as of immediately--to which Mission cited as an admission of guilt. 14 days seems excessive, since all evidence of guilt supports an alternative theory. I don't really care. My point is...it is POSSIBLE Buzz didn't think he was going to get banned, at least not justifiably. Buzz clearly was not a good ambassador to a new member; I'm not protesting.
Quote: SonuvabishIt sounds like you are describing Buzz's suspension as voluntary, like suicide by cop. Buzzard--malum prohibitum. kevintracy (or his creator)--malum in se. I've seen Buzz act the same way before, which leads me to believe he didn't think a banning would be justifiable...in fact, I think he may have thought doing so would be hypocritical, which was a running theme.
I went thru his posts. He complains a bit about the sale, with a sense of foreboding of the future. At some point, Zuga aggressively responds to him, and states he is in all his posts. Although Buzz appears to be be questioning Zuga's motives excessively, that statement isn't true--Buzz is either merely reporting factual information, or making up harmless fantasy for humor in the posts that do include Zuga. Buzz respectfully disagrees with everything he Zuga says, occasionally throwing in a joke that may be a barb--but they are incomprehensible as far as I can tell, so should be ignored. Buzz promises to quit posting on the topic, but Zuga aggressively responds to that post and every other, which is an obvious equal cause to further discord. Buzz ambiguously says Mike earned his respect; Zuga takes it out of context by assigning definitive negative meaning to it, and says Buzz admitted he had no respect for Zuga. Prior to the argument which led to suspension, Buzz jokingly suggested if trolling is not clearly defined, that he, and even Bob Evans (EvenBob), could face lifetime suspensions as of immediately--to which Mission cited as an admission of guilt. 14 days seems excessive, since all evidence of guilt supports an alternative theory. I don't really care. My point is...it is POSSIBLE Buzz didn't think he was going to get banned, at least not justifiably. Buzz clearly was not a good ambassador to a new member; I'm not protesting.
You're leaving something out. Buzz took several swipes at Zuga and his business. Zuga responded to those kindly and with great restraint. What you left out was Buzz's mention of one of Zuga's employees in an unflattering manner. This is a young woman who isn't even on this forum, a woman with who there is no rapport. A woman he found by looking into LCB. He was told by two administrators, including the one he addresses as darling, to stop. He refused. Not only did he refuse, he used her first and last name in ten different posts in one thread alone. Someone tell me when it becomes creepy.
He was finally, and possibly reluctantly, suspended for 14 days. This for offense number 6, not 5 as someone had thought.
Buzz is not a bad guy. He is a good husband, dad, and grandpa. He is also a veteran and I automatically add points for that. That may have gotten him some leniency along with being a "darling". He may have gotten a little apprehensive about the future of this forum and acting out was his way of showing it.
Zuga is running a business and, I would imagine, has neither the time nor the desire to babysit any of us. His business does not revolve around this forum.
Quote: SonuvabishIt sounds like you are describing Buzz's suspension as voluntary, like suicide by cop. Buzzard--malum prohibitum. kevintracy (or his creator)--malum in se. I've seen Buzz act the same way before, which leads me to believe he didn't think a banning would be justifiable...in fact, I think he may have thought doing so would be hypocritical, which was a running theme.
I went thru his posts. He complains a bit about the sale, with a sense of foreboding of the future. At some point, Zuga aggressively responds to him, and states he is in all his posts. Although Buzz appears to be be questioning Zuga's motives excessively, that statement isn't true--Buzz is either merely reporting factual information, or making up harmless fantasy for humor in the posts that do include Zuga. Buzz respectfully disagrees with everything he Zuga says, occasionally throwing in a joke that may be a barb--but they are incomprehensible as far as I can tell, so should be ignored. Buzz promises to quit posting on the topic, but Zuga aggressively responds to that post and every other, which is an obvious equal cause to further discord. Buzz ambiguously says Mike earned his respect; Zuga takes it out of context by assigning definitive negative meaning to it, and says Buzz admitted he had no respect for Zuga. Prior to the argument which led to suspension, Buzz jokingly suggested if trolling is not clearly defined, that he, and even Bob Evans (EvenBob), could face lifetime suspensions as of immediately--to which Mission cited as an admission of guilt. 14 days seems excessive, since all evidence of guilt supports an alternative theory. I don't really care. My point is...it is POSSIBLE Buzz didn't think he was going to get banned, at least not justifiably. Buzz clearly was not a good ambassador to a new member; I'm not protesting.
I beg to differ...Buzz respectfully disagrees with me? Disagrees yes, respectfully absolutely NO. Buzz knew what he was doing and he knew there was a possibility he would get banned. What you fail to see is that he was relentless in trolling and his attacks.
And you take everything i said in reply to him, out of context, making it now sound like he is the "victim".
I urge you to go again thru every single post he made since the purchase announcement. Most of those posts were direct or indirect attack at my employee and me.
I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt, and I have exercised a lot of patience with him. But that was not enuff.
If you still want to think that I was being aggressive then so be it. I am not here to win a popularity contest, nor I have time to play any games.
If someone wants to be disrespectful then I will surely show them the door.
The only thing I perhaps did wrong is not banning him earlier.
Quote: ZugaI beg to differ...Buzz respectfully disagrees with me? Disagrees yes, respectfully absolutely NO. Buzz knew what he was doing and he knew there was a possibility he would get banned. What you fail to see is that he was relentless in trolling and his attacks.
And you take everything i said in reply to him, out of context, making it now sound like he is the "victim".
I urge you to go again thru every single post he made since the purchase announcement. Most of those posts were direct or indirect attack at my employee and me.
I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt, and I have exercised a lot of patience with him. But that was not enuff.
If you still want to think that I was being aggressive then so be it. I am not here to win a popularity contest, nor I have time to play any games.
If someone wants to be disrespectful then I will surely show them the door.
The only thing I perhaps did wrong is not banning him earlier.
I didn't mean to say he was actually being respectful to you as a person, per se. I meant he was making an effort to be somewhat formal in addressing you, making it seem like he was not trying to get himself in trouble, while at the same time pressing the limits of what he can say...at least feigning respect for your position. He was relentless, I agree. He trolled, I agree...but I don't agree that it was substantially different than what he usually does. I don't put that on you at all...you were never here before. I stated once I don't think you were wrong to do what you did. I don't think he's the victim, but I do think if you ignored him at a certain point, it would have not escalated to a ban. It's possible he may have quit for a bit, then started up later, causing you again to step in, but we'll never know.
I can see your POV; I am sure you were legitimately irritated. I think you did aggressively respond, which you had a right to do. You may or may not have realized he would respond in kind. I don't think it ultimately helped, but I don't think you handled it poorly either. My only real point was to BBB...I think he thought he wasn't going to get banned. If my other post used facts and inferences to characterize Buzz as innocent, it was mostly to bolster my point and put forth an alternate view (one view I have is that bans happen too much in general). I honestly don't care if he's banned or not. And when I see green after a post I make, I always feel dread...so you are no less popular than any other mod in my book.
Quote: SonuvabishI didn't mean to say he was actually being respectful to you as a person, per se. I meant he was making an effort to be somewhat formal in addressing you, which seemed like he was not trying to get himself in trouble, while at the same time pressing the limits of what he can say...at least feigning respect for your position. He was relentless, I agree. He trolled, I agree...but I don't agree that it was substantially different than what he usually does. I don't put that on you at all...you were never here before. I stated once I don't think you were wrong to do what you did. I don't think he's the victim, but I do think if you ignored him at a certain point, it would have not escalated to a ban. It's possible he may have quit for a bit, then started up later, causing you again to step in, but we'll never know.
I can see how your POV; I am sure you were legitimately irritated. I think you did aggressively respond, which you had a right to do. You may or may not have realized he would respond in kind. I don't think it ultimately helped, but I don't think you handled it poorly either. My only real point was to BBB...I think he thought he wasn't going to get banned. I honestly don't care if he's banned or not. And when I see green after a post I make, I always feel dread...so you are no less popular than any other mod in my book.
I don't know what point you hope to make to me in all this. I've banned him at least twice; I've warned him other times, including this one. He likes to make the running joke of us having some relationship; I've never met him, but I play along. That said, he adds something to the board, and though I agreed on the 14 days (which was the least he was going to get), I'm glad he will be able to return, and I hope he does. So, no, he has no reason to "expect to get away" (paraphrasing your specious argument) with anything, with me or anyone else.
Quote: beachbumbabsI don't know what point you hope to make to me in all this. I've banned him at least twice; I've warned him other times, including this one. He likes to make the running joke of us having some relationship; I've never met him, but I play along. That said, he adds something to the board, and though I agreed on the 14 days (which was the least he was going to get), I'm glad he will be able to return, and I hope he does. So, no, he has no reason to "expect to get away" (paraphrasing your specious argument) with anything, with me or anyone else.
I didn't know that was a joke...I thought you guys might be talking. He's been here a long time, and he's EvenBob Jr. (no offense EvenBob). So basically he constantly trolls, and dodges the penalty. Seems to me reason to think he'd get away with it, in addition to the previous statement of facts. But my point wasn't that he had a good 'reason' to believe, only that I believed that's what he thought. I wrote a long paragraph to demonstrate that if you were Buzz, you would not need to be insane to believe you wouldn't be suspended. Your position, I believe, is suicide by cop, which I find less persuasive.
Quote: SonuvabishSo basically he constantly trolls, and dodges the penalty.
No, he doesn't. And that's why he doesn't
get suspended very often. He was repeatedly
rude to the new owner. But most of the time
he's just being Buzz, something you can't seem
to grasp. Not everything you don't like is 'trolling',
not by a long shot. I'm doubful, like a lot of
people, you even know what real trolling is.
Many people think if you express your opinion
all the time, that's trolling. It's not..
Quote: ZugaIf you still want to think that I was being aggressive then so be it. I am not here to win a popularity contest, nor I have time to play any games. If someone wants to be disrespectful then I will surely show them the door. The only thing I perhaps did wrong is not banning him earlier.
And the new broom sweeps clean.
Your purchase, your rules.
Yeah, Buzz knew what he was doing; you can only poke a tiger with a stick so many times before the tiger gets irked and takes you down.
Quote: EvenBobNo, he doesn't. And that's why he doesn't
get suspended very often. He was repeatedly
rude to the new owner. But most of the time
he's just being Buzz, something you can't seem
to grasp. Not everything you don't like is 'trolling',
not by a long shot. I'm doubful, like a lot of
people, you even know what real trolling is.
Many people think if you express your opinion
all the time, that's trolling. It's not..
I don't mind what he does. I think I generally agree with you trolling is a vague, overly broad term as applied on the forum. I didn't know what trolling was before I came here--meaning that it existed. And whoever is really concerned with the intricacies and boundaries of trolling--has too much time on their hands. And he was rude. But maybe we differ in that I don't think he was being much different than usual. He was expressing disagreement, to which he agreed to stop. If he was trolling and this was different than what he normally does, he was being fed. I'm not sure what I don't grasp, I'm saying he was being Buzz and they called it trolling this time.
Quote: SonuvabishI don't mind what he does. I think I generally agree with you trolling is a vague,.
Then why did you state 'he was basically trolling'
and getting away with it? Which is it, you think
he was trolling or you don't. *facepalm*
Quote: EvenBobThen why did you state 'he was basically trolling'
and getting away with it? Which is it, you think
he was trolling or you don't. *facepalm*
He said this himself! He's either constantly trolling or never trolling. What he did here is not different, in my opinion, than his normal behavior. I think a ban was appropriate, personally, but 14 days seems excessive due to the past history of the poster always acting like that without penalty! On the other hand, Zuga doesn't know that. If I was Zuga, I'd wonder why I'm being attacked.
Quote: SonuvabishHe said this himself! He's either constantly trolling or never trolling. What he did here is not different, in my opinion, than his normal behavior. I think a ban was appropriate, personally, but 14 days seems excessive due to the past history of the poster always acting like that without penalty! On the other hand, Zuga doesn't know that. If I was Zuga, I'd wonder why I'm being attacked.
The definition of, and penalties for, trolling are very fluid around here. One gets the death penalty, one gets 14 days, one gets nothing. Some of that is who gets their feelings hurts, some of it seems to be biased based on views, and some of it is the vagueness of the crime's definition.
Oh come on Bob you know what trolling is. Next thing we know, you'll be doubtful you really know what a roulette betting system really is.Quote: EvenBobI'm doubful, like a lot of
people, you even know what real trolling is.
Quote: AxelWolfOh come on Bob you know what trolling is. .
Every time I'm accused of trolling, I always
ask for the posts where I was doing this.
So far not one member has pointed to
a specific thread or post. They just don't
like me, so anything I say is trolling to them.
Quote: DeucekiesTrolling is like obscenity. Difficult to define, but you know it when you see it.
Apparently this is not true, because I've yet to
be shown a thread I was trolling in after being
accused.
Quote: EvenBobApparently this is not true, because I've yet to
be shown a thread I was trolling in after being
accused.
Well don't bark at me about that. I've never accused you of it.
Quote: RonCThe definition of, and penalties for, trolling are very fluid around here. One gets the death penalty, one gets 14 days, one gets nothing. Some of that is who gets their feelings hurts, some of it seems to be biased based on views, and some of it is the vagueness of the crime's definition.
Exactly what I was trying to say. And I think Buzz is someone who almost never gets a penalty.
Quote: EvenBobEvery time I'm accused of trolling.
Everyone must be trolling you. I think everyone must like you, or you'd have gotten penalized for trolling. Doesn't that make the most sense?
Quote: SonuvabishEveryone must be trolling you. I think everyone must like you, or you'd have gotten penalized for trolling. Doesn't that make the most sense?
No. That I'm not trolling is what's happening.
Again, the average person thinks trolling is
someone saying something they don't like.
They have not clue one what real trolling
is.
Quote: EvenBobNo. That I'm not trolling is what's happening.
Again, the average person thinks trolling is
someone saying something they don't like.
They have not clue one what real trolling
is.
I think the average person has never heard of trolling unless related to fishing...I never had before this site. The average internet user or teenager...I don't think your definition is what they think. I'd agree with RonC, it's certainly vague and has indefinite boundaries. If you're not trolling, and everyone is always accusing you of trolling, aren't they trolling you? Why wouldn't they be...it obviously has you slightly annoyed, and you consider it false and baseless.
Quote: SonuvabishI think the average person has never heard of trolling.
I heard of it at least mid 90's. Trolling
is simple. It's making posts willfully
trying to get a reaction from someone.
It's not looking for info, or stating your
opinion, or making a smart assed remark.
You can state your case again and again
and not be trolling.
It's going on a Christian site and pretending
to be an atheist just to cause trouble. It's
always taking the opposing viewpoint just
to stir things up. It's singling out one person
and dogging them till they scream at you.
That's trolling.
Quote: EvenBobI heard of it at least mid 90's. Trolling
is simple. It's making posts willfully
trying to get a reaction from someone.
It's not looking for info, or stating your
opinion, or making a smart assed remark.
You can state your case again and again
and not be trolling.
It's going on a Christian site and pretending
to be an atheist just to cause trouble. It's
always taking the opposing viewpoint just
to stir things up. It's singling out one person
and dogging them till they scream at you.
That's trolling.
Trolling Christian sites sounds incredibly fun. Let's look at the elements in your makeshift definition. "1) making posts willfully
2) trying to get a reaction from someone". Now a hypothetical post: 'Hey Bob, how are you?' Was that post willful? Yes. Am I trying to get a reaction? Yes. Simple pleasantries are trolling under the rule of what trolling is. So lets look at some 'case-law'.
1) Not looking for info. Well inquiring pleasantries are now OK. But what about..."Hello Bob" is still trolling.
2) Stating your opinion. I think you are a 'personal insult". Not trolling.
3) State your case again and again. A five year old gets on here and says "I'm awesome, you're not nananananana' over and over, not trolling.
These are some extreme examples...but I'm just trying to point out yes, I think we all grasp what trolling is. And it's vague and not subject to a strict definition in practice.
Quote: SonuvabishI think we all grasp what trolling is. And it's vague and not subject to a strict definition in practice.
F*****g with the person you are communicating with as much as possible.
Maybe that's still vague, but best I can think of at the moment. (no not the literal carnal intercourse).
Trolls here can do that a lot without specifically breaking rules -- that's the problem the mods sometimes have. Not in IDing them, but in getting rid of them.
IMO.
Quote: LondonBridgeI am new here but I was looking at the forum rules to acquaint myself. This guy named buzzard has 6 offenses like you said. According to suspension list for others, the punishment should go 3 days......7 days......14 days......1 month......2 months.......nuke.
How did this guy buzzard manage to avoid the martingale? There's another guy I think his name is DMSCR who also avoids punishment.
Cuz I am obviously completely and absurdly wrong and he hasn't historically evaded penalization...wait a second!
Quote: LondonBridgeI am new here but I was looking at the forum rules to acquaint myself. This guy named buzzard has 6 offenses like you said. According to suspension list for others, the punishment should go 3 days......7 days......14 days......1 month......2 months.......nuke.
How did this guy buzzard manage to avoid the martingale? There's another guy I think his name is DMSCR who also avoids punishment.
Hmmm. This post sure looks familiar.
