Wynn Changes Craps from 3/4/5 to 2x on 7/11/15

Quote: RS

Is 2x odds only at Wynn? Or is it both?

It was answered in I think this thread...Encore also 2X.

Quote: Ahigh

The bounce on both tables was also different than the bounce on the main floor. .

Do you mean more bounce or less? Did you notice any magnets under the landing area?

What's all the fuzz is about? 2 times or 3-4-5 odds? Who cares? 2times odds will loose their money a bit faster, and on a cold table full odds spell disaster. Don't bettors might be chased away, since their only headache is to survive the come out roll.

Quote: Dicenor33

Don't bettors might be chased away, since their only headache is to survive the come out roll.

Ahem. There is also the not-so-minor "headache" of having your number or numbers rolled.

Quote: NokTang

Do you mean more bounce or less? Did you notice any magnets under the landing area?

I meant EXACTLY what I said -- it was DIFFERENT.

And on the next question, uhm, no.

Quote: Ahigh

I meant EXACTLY what I said -- it was DIFFERENT.

You said the bounce was "Different". Yet, you refuse to tell us what that means? Strange to say the least. It has to either be more bouncy or less bouncy or I guess, no bounce which is why I included the magnet inquiry as they can result in no bounce.

Give'em a cold table and full odds. The pit boss will hate'em with all his guts. As previously said dark side players will try to compensate by placing 38 instead of a 10 dollar bet, few sevens on come out and their effort comes to a grinding stop.

Quote: NokTang

Quote: Ahigh

I meant EXACTLY what I said -- it was DIFFERENT.

You said the bounce was "Different". Yet, you refuse to tell us what that means? Strange to say the least. It has to either be more bouncy or less bouncy or I guess, no bounce which is why I included the magnet inquiry as they can result in no bounce.

No, a "different" bounce doesn't necessarily mean more bouncy or less bouncy. Check the third paragraph of my almost five-years-old post here.

Quote: Ahigh

I meant EXACTLY what I said -- it was DIFFERENT.

Ahigh,

Since you've been recently, does the Wynn craps tables still have the raised edges on each side of the hardways box to prevent dice sliding?

They were installing them at some of the tables at the Wynn in March when I was there.

--helpmespock

Quote: Doc

No, a "different" bounce doesn't necessarily mean more bouncy or less bouncy. Check the third paragraph of my almost five-years-old post here.

Hi Doc. Thanks for the link, I did read it. It seems you explained it perfectly, something Ahigh has thus far refused to do. So you felt like the dice would always bounce left rather than keep going towards the back wall, and bounce very high(hitting the dealers chest). For sure different and I'd say "more bouncy" in addition to going left but I'll leave that up to the dice influencing experts. If it was more bouncy and the die kept going straight, they'd obviously go off the table quite often unless a player was there to block said die causing an uproar for "touching" the die.

Quote: NokTang

Quote: Doc

No, a "different" bounce doesn't necessarily mean more bouncy or less bouncy. Check the third paragraph of my almost five-years-old post here.

Hi Doc. Thanks for the link, I did read it. It seems you explained it perfectly, something Ahigh has thus far refused to do. So you felt like the dice would always bounce left rather than keep going towards the back wall, and bounce very high(hitting the dealers chest). For sure different and I'd say "more bouncy" in addition to going left but I'll leave that up to the dice influencing experts. If it was more bouncy and the die kept going straight, they'd obviously go off the table quite often unless a player was there to block said die causing an uproar for "touching" the die.

I answered your question. You just probably didn't realize what you ASKED. Which is okay. Many people don't know what they are actually saying and instead are only thinking of what they meant to communicate to the other person.

What you asked was effectively, "what did you mean?" I answered BOTH questions 100% accurately.

Maybe you meant to ask another question, but by the time you're saying things like "Ahigh has thus far refused" -- it's clear that you don't comprehend that I answered your question. You just didn't ask the one that you meant to ask.

Casinos do change the puddings. Someone is on their nerves, otherwise, why whoud they go to such drastic measures? It was DI's they worried before, it turned out to be the fallacy, and now back to the old business of improving the bottom line. A new CEO ready to take on the world? K- mart shoppers, what do they know?

Quote: Ahigh

Maybe you meant to ask another question, but by the time you're saying things like "Ahigh has thus far refused" -- it's clear that you don't comprehend that I answered your question. You just didn't ask the one that you meant to ask.

You didn't answer. That's your right and decision of course, but kindly don't lump it into a stupid question or try and convince members you did answer. No worries.

Now for the big question... Were you at the Cosmo around noon on Friday, hanging out at the pool without an invite, and get asked to leave creating a scene?

Quote: MathExtremist

I don't really feel $5+3/4/5x, in the same way as I'd suppose Phil Ivey doesn't really feel $100+3/4/5x.

Um, Phil Ivey as a routine plays $10,000+3/4/5x (or $5000+3/4/5x in the casinos that haven't raised their limits for him yet).

[duplicate]

Quote: Dicenor33

Casinos do change the puddings.

I prefer butterscotch.

Quote: teddys

Um, Phil Ivey as a routine plays $10,000+3/4/5x (or $5000+3/4/5x in the casinos that haven't raised their limits for him yet).

and Mr Ivey should seriously consider my craps AP play (i have a thread about that)

he would love it,
i mean knowing that he has an edge over the casino and the casino will say he does not
until they maybe figure out he might

perfect for a poker player

he can contact me with any questions if he wants
after he reads my thread

how come Annette Obrestad did not make it to the WSOP this year in Vegas?

Wynn was asked about the 2x odds in his earnings call today and said "We're not in the business of offering games that don't make money."

Swell. The Strip sucks.

Quote: hail2skins

Wynn was asked about the 2x odds in his earnings call today and said "We're not in the business of offering games that don't make money."

Swell. The Strip sucks.

Seems very "out of character" for Mr. Wynn. Can you/I confirm this was the context?

EDIT: Here is the context:

As for the other games on its casino floor, Wynn said the company did some rearranging in July, changing the odds in some cases and increasing the minimum bets required, pushing the games with a smaller profit margin to other locations.

“We win more money with less games now,” he said. “We’re not in the business to offer games that don’t make money.”

--I think this also confirms what a few of us asked and posted...that Mr. Wynn himself was involved in the decision to reduce the odds to 2X.

This was according to the guy who runs the vegashotelnews.com site, so you can go there for the full writeup. Before that, one of the posters on Vegas Message Board who is a Wynn high roller claimed he had heard that the move to 2x odds came from SW.

Quote: hail2skins

This was according to the guy who runs the vegashotelnews.com site, so you can go there for the full writeup. Before that, one of the posters on Vegas Message Board who is a Wynn high roller claimed he had heard that the move to 2x odds came from SW.

Thanks for the link. I did read it. It doesn't quote Mr. Wynn, rather, says he said it. No big deal. I edited in the context above and members can make their own interpretation of it all as they please. Not mentioned is the reported fact that the $100.usd min. tables still have 3/4/5 X odds.

I'm personally like most players, don't take more than 2X in real life anyhow.

Quote: NokTang

Now for the big question... Were you at the Cosmo around noon on Friday, hanging out at the pool without an invite, and get asked to leave creating a scene?

Thanks for the question which appears to reveal more about you than encouraging any sort of response from me.

Here's my answer to that question: *meh*

http://www.thestreet.com/story/13237441/5/wynn-resorts-wynn-earnings-report-q2-2015-conference-call-transcript.html

Quote: Steve Wynn

Years ago, down at Binion's, they started at the craps table of giving 10 times odds. If you bet $100 on the line, you could bet $1,000 on the free odds behind the line, if you bet the pass line. I'm getting a little technical.

But in the old days in dice, whatever you bet on the line you could bet the same amount behind the line, and that was a whole percentage of a little under 1%. Then they started giving double odds to -- compared to the amount of money you bet on the pass line and that lowered the house percentage to 0.57.

Then there became a pattern on the Strip of what's called the three, four, five. Depending on what numbers you were betting on the crap table to come up before number seven came up, you could get three times odds, four times odds, or five times odds, depending -- there are pairs of numbers on a dice table. Four and 10 have 2 to 1 odds. Five and nine have a different set of odds and six to eight are six to five. Well, depending on what number you were trying to get, you could get three, four, or five times odds. That became a house advantage of 0.37. With three dealers and a box man and half of a floor man for every table, craps is not a really profitable game at that level.

So I changed the casino. In effect, I raised the price and I went to double odds only, except for extremely high play with a $1,000 minimum bet. I also rearranged the floor in the casino to put our specialty games that are very popular with the public that have a higher margin and I put them in the 100% location, and I moved my less -- my games with less of a margin to secondary locations.

Those changes have worked out favorably to us in the past three weeks and that kind of re-examination -- our slot floor has been redone. We win more money with less games now.

These are some of the reasons why we make more money than anybody else in Las Vegas.

Now, some of the operators will copy us. You know we are not allowed to talk to one another because of obvious legal implications of price fixing, but we don't really care what the other guys do. We run our own business the way we see we should and we are not in business to offer games that don't make money, and I don't mind saying that publicly.

So, we have done quite a bit of work in tightening up the way the casino works, and I know our competitors are on the call and they probably -- everybody knows it. The minute you make a change like that in Las Vegas, it goes around town like wildfire. But those are some of the things we are doing, and it touches every aspect.

We're constantly re-examining everything we do here. We sit in my office and discuss the most fundamental aspects of this industry every single week, and we take nothing -- we are not so much concerned of what has been or what is as we are concerned about what might be. And that's a principal truth of our Company, whether it's in China or in Las Vegas or Boston or wherever. Next question.

A really honest and thorough answer. You can't hardly blame him as the President of a publicly traded company wanting to make more money for the stockholders. Whether this will be effective is a different question entirely.

Quote: teddys

A really honest and thorough answer. You can't hardly blame him as the President of a publicly traded company wanting to make more money for the stockholders. Whether this will be effective is a different question entirely.

You couldn't blame him for anything short of murder or grand larceny if he can get away with it and it benefits the company [exaggeration]. The question becomes, will competitors advertise that they offer better odds or not and will the players respond?

I'm personally like most players, don't take more than 2X in real life anyhow.

Really? You really don't care about the new odds because you "don't take more than 2X in real life anyhow" that has nothing to do with it. What you have to think about is, the next move SW will do is put 5% on the player or charge for valet parking. It is a bad trend he just started for all of us. Also, I think his math was off saying with 3,4,5x odds the HE goes down to 037? I might be wrong and maybe one of you can verify. But the fact is the HE that craps has at 3,4,5 isn't good enough for SW. I say that's gouging and I for one don't like it. Take it from the buying of towels, forks and spoons or tables and linen. Or concentrate on bringing in more weddings, catering and other functions! Don't take it from a table game which is only a small % of there profit anyways these days.

Obviously Steve Wynn would like to make more money from every game on the floor, but stating that the house edge on 3,4,5x craps is 0.37 is misleading. If you step up to any craps table, very few of the players are sticking to pass line and come bets with odds. You will see lots of money on place bets, hardways, and field bets. That's got to be where a lot of the profits are coming from, and those bets aren't affected by this change at all. It's hard to believe this change makes a significant difference to the bottom line, and it creates bad publicity with serious gamblers.

Maybe the real purpose of the change is to get the smart gamblers to go elsewhere. Wynn doesn't want those players at the table anyway. Just like he mentioned putting the carnival games in a better location to get more people playing worse games. If you are a casino boss, do you want to attract a bunch of hard core, superstitious craps nits betting the dont, laying max odds, and getting upset whenever a newbie decides to buy in mid roll? Or is your ideal crowd a bunch of drunken bros tossing money at the hard eight and cheering when it hits?

I'll never play craps at wynn/encore ever again. Unless I'm playing 100+ which is rare. They don't have a monopoly on the game.

I don't see any incentive there for getting more people in the door. Hopefully the increased edge he gets is greater than all 2 of the people playing craps at his properties.

And did I read he added more craps tables? LOL.

Quote: jml24

Obviously Steve Wynn would like to make more money from every game on the floor, but stating that the house edge on 3,4,5x craps is 0.37 is misleading. If you step up to any craps table, very few of the players are sticking to pass line and come bets with odds. You will see lots of money on place bets, hardways, and field bets. That's got to be where a lot of the profits are coming from, and those bets aren't affected by this change at all. It's hard to believe this change makes a significant difference to the bottom line, and it creates bad publicity with serious gamblers.

Maybe the real purpose of the change is to get the smart gamblers to go elsewhere. Wynn doesn't want those players at the table anyway.

This is it. The "make less money" speech is not only misleading, it's wrong. Wynn doesn't make any more or less from $15 players making $30 odds vs. $15 players making $45/$60/$75 odds. Each $15 line bet is worth $0.21 regardless of the odds. However, if there are players (like me) who are content to just play $15 + odds, those players may be less content to play $15 + $30 than $15 + 45/60/75, and may go elsewhere. That frees up a spot at the table for someone willing to bet the field or prop bets and who are worth more than $0.21 per bet.

One would think that the clientele at Wynn/Encore would know enough about the game to avoid the high HE bets.

We'll see.

Every time I've been through Wynn/Encore, they're mostly empty.

Quote: MathExtremist

This is it. The "make less money" speech is not only misleading, it's wrong. Wynn doesn't make any more or less from $15 players making $30 odds vs. $15 players making $45/$60/$75 odds. Each $15 line bet is worth $0.21 regardless of the odds. However, if there are players (like me) who are content to just play $15 + odds, those players may be less content to play $15 + $30 than $15 + 45/60/75, and may go elsewhere. That frees up a spot at the table for someone willing to bet the field or prop bets and who are worth more than $0.21 per bet.

This may be correct from a mathematical perspective, however, it's possible that the analysis offered up by Steve is operating under the assumption that the total amount of action is not going to go down as a result of having double odds.

So, for example, a smart gambler might start off with a four and ten working the comeout for $25 each to get the same amount of action they are missing from an extra $50 worth of odds.

Any smart table game gambler who tips and complains about double odds isn't tipping enough IMO.

Any smart gambler who doesn't tip wasn't playing craps at the Wynn to begin with.

The cost is in the tipping for the intelligent higher-limit player. The hold is in the math. Steve is concerned with the hold, not with the tips.

Largest odds multiple, no matter if it is double, or 100x, is entirely a marketing gimmick. Nothing more and nothing less.

In this real world, the one that I observe, the percentage of all bets on the felt that are odds bets is very nearly INVERSELY proportional to what is being offered.

But that's my eyes talking, not a mathematical analysis.

I think that the hold percentage is more (not less) on higher odds multiple tables. I think statistics would likely bear out my casual observations. And those are that the casinos offering the larger odds multiple have a MUCH smaller average bet from their average player. Again, the smaller minimum bet tables also generally observe the highest hold percentage numbers IMO. This is due to both the rounding down on pays (on $3 tables especially) as well as the propensity of low-limit players to play higher HA% bets.

The most recent casinos to go from 345x to 10x have been Red Rock and more recently SLS.

It would be anecdotally interesting to know if when Red Rock went from $10 345x to $5 10x did the hold percentages go up or down when they went to a $5 table?

I'm going to guess that a $5 table has a higher hold percent because of the number of players who like to do 32 across with pressure that would never do the same with 64 across if nothing else. But you also have folks who bet $5 six and $5 eight. There is a demographic of player that does that here in Las Vegas that can be observed. These players, generally, are completely absent at the Wynn.

They have been OMNIPRESENT at the WestGate recently as the WestGate is giving away $75 in free bets to anyone listening to a sales pitch for a timeshare. Those same folks brought the $5 free-bet chips to the tables and promptly placed the six and eight for $5 each and hopped the point along with other bets while lamenting the lameness of the sales pitch of the timeshare and arguing over whether or not one of them stole the other one's lighter.

As another side-note, the Wynn, in reality, would probably be better off to double their minimum bets on the main floor as well to keep the action the same for folks who just play min line and max odds. IE: do $25 minimums with double odds instead of $10 with 345x. The other advantage here is that there are, in fact, some people who will play faster and lose more because the rules that dealers explain to new players (IE: the ones with the MOST money) are simpler to understand with double odds than with 345x.

Quote: Ahigh

Quote: Steve Wynn

So I changed the casino. In effect, I raised the price and I went to double odds only, except for extremely high play with a $1,000 minimum bet..

I thought it was posted here that these "high play" tables were $100.usd minimums, not $1000.usd? Just curious as again, it doesn't really impact me personally.

Quote: mds

I'm personally like most players, don't take more than 2X in real life anyhow.

Really? You really don't care about the new odds because you "don't take more than 2X in real life anyhow" that has nothing to do with it. What you have to think about is, the next move SW will do ......

Disclaimer....I've never been in or played at the Wynn....

However, I grew older playing on day cruises out of Florida and in Atlantic City and in the various Caribbean Sea venues where single and double odds were the norm and the food sucked. So I don't expect much other than fair dice and to be paid when I win. I think the 3-4-5 X is stupid. I did like ten times and one hundred times odds.

Quote: NokTang

I think the 3-4-5 X is stupid. I did like ten times and one hundred times odds.

3/4/5x is genius. the dealer doesn't have to think.
if the person is betting max odds, then the payout is 7x the flat bet for every #.

and it also makes the game go quicker which is beneficial to the house

Quote: 100xOdds

3/4/5x is genius. the dealer doesn't have to think.
if the person is betting max odds, then the payout is 7x the flat bet for every #.

and it also makes the game go quicker which is beneficial to the house

Good point...however, it has become obvious that people don't in fact take full odds most of the time. So, the dealers are always having to figure out just how much to pay out. If all players were required to take 3/4/5 or no odds, then you have a really good point.

6x is the payout, no?

They all loosers. Good players can be found at a blackjack table or a poker game, but games like craps, Mississippi stud, roulette, can not have good players because of the nature of the game.

Quote: NokTang

Good point...however, it has become obvious that people don't in fact take full odds most of the time. So, the dealers are always having to figure out just how much to pay out. If all players were required to take 3/4/5 or no odds, then you have a really good point.

I don't think that figuring out odds payments is a particularly daunting task for any competent dealer--certainly, dealers who make the cut to be hired and places like Wynn and Encore know the three ways odds are paid (2:1, 3:2, and 6:5) and how to size into each one of them. It really shouldn't matter what size odds bets are allowed as far as payments go; they just have to observe to make sure the odds bet is correct relative to the pass or come bet.

Payouts on other bets can be more challenging, but these are supposedly top dealers. The dealers seem to struggle most with a win on a bet in the middle where there were actually four or five bets made at the same time and the player wants to keep them up...

I just can't see odds payouts being an issue in any way, whether it is a 10x table, 100xtable, or 2x "cruise ship" table...

Quote: odiousgambit

6x is the payout, no?

6x on the odds + 1x on the flat = 7x the flat

There are officially now two tables In the high limit room. 3, 4, 5x... 100 min to 1000 min on weekends..

3-4-5 X is pathetic enough.

Go downtown and play at Main Street Station and get 20 X

or go out on the Boulder Highway where 10 X is standard.

I played recently at the Horseshoe in Baltimore. 100 X and that was excellent !

Quote: ZenMasterFlash

3-4-5 X is pathetic enough.

Go downtown and play at Main Street Station and get 20 X

or go out on the Boulder Highway where 10 X is standard.

I played recently at the Horseshoe in Baltimore. 100 X and that was excellent !

walk down a couple of blocks from the wynn to casino royale.. 100x also w/$5min when I was there a few yrs ago

Quote: 100xOdds

walk down a couple of blocks from the wynn to casino royale.. 100x also w/$5min when I was there a few yrs ago

They reduced that to I think ten X. As usual, even when the Rivera offered 1000 X, very few actually took those kind of odds.

Quote: NokTang

They reduced that to I think ten X. As usual, even when the Rivera offered 1000 X, very few actually took those kind of odds.

I know someone who took the 1000x odds at the Riviera. He told me prior to his trip he would clean up.

After the trip he admitted to losing AT LEAST $25,000 but I think the Riv cleaned him out of that and much more.

Odds don't make the dice go your way.

I also had a friend who played the don't for 100xOdds when Casino Royale had it. I was there and I watched him bet $5 flat with 100xOdds on the don't. I watched him lose $25.k. And this I saw myself.

Yes I have seen it too Alan. This thread is Wynn went for 3,4,5x to 1x... Anyone should have the option of wagering higher odds if they want. Casinos really shouldn't limit a person. (Within reason) Take a don't player who is on a streak, they can only lay 200 in odds on their 100 DP bet. (Unless my calculations are off) They really should have the option to lay 600. Let them lose more! Pretty petty of the great SW. IMO.

Quote: mds

Yes I have seen it too Alan. This thread is Wynn went for 3,4,5x to 1x... Anyone should have the option of wagering higher odds if they want. Casinos really shouldn't limit a person. (Within reason) Take a don't player who is on a streak, they can only lay 200 in odds on their 100 DP bet. (Unless my calculations are off) They really should have the option to lay 600. Let them lose more! Pretty petty of the great SW. IMO.

Your calculations are slightly off.

They can only Lay odds that will result in a $200 odds WIN (thus the 2x).
So on a double odds table, betting $100 DP, the bettor can
lay $400 odds on the 4/10 (to win $200 odds),
lay $300 on the 5/9 (to win $200 odds), and
lay $240 on the 6/8 (to win $200 odds)

yes of course. that is still far away from 6/1 on the don't..

Apparently there is now a pit at the Venetian that is $5 minimum during certain hours. The blackjack tables in the pit are 6/5 and the craps table has double odds.