Wynn Changes Craps from 3/4/5 to 2x on 7/11/15

Just checked in at the Wynn to meet up with a craps friend and discovered they just changed the Craps Odds to 2x. I wasn't thrilled with the 3/4/5 but that is the price of playing with the big boys. For full odds and double Come with full odds bettor this could be expensive. Raises the edge from .374 to .572. If my math is right and it probably isn't that increases the cost of a $100 average bettor from $15.71/hr to $24.02/hr.

Looks like this is my last visit unless they fix it.

Quote: howesmr

Just checked in at the Wynn to meet up with a craps friend and discovered they just changed the Craps Odds to 2x. I wasn't thrilled with the 3/4/5 but that is the price of playing with the big boys. For full odds and double Come with full odds bettor this could be expensive. Raises the edge from .374 to .572. If my math is right and it probably isn't that increases the cost of a $100 average bettor from $15.71/hr to $24.02/hr.

Looks like this is my last visit unless they fix it.

Saw elsewhere on the board they said there's still one table at Wynn w/ 3x4x5x with $100 minimum. This just came up earlier today, so perhaps if you look around it's there?

Quote: howesmr

If my math is right and it probably isn't that increases the cost of a $100 average bettor from $15.71/hr to $24.02/hr.

Does the Wynn rate odds play? The cost of playing $100 pass bets is about $50/hour regardless of odds. If you get a $100 rating from green action with full odds, that costs less.

Quote: howesmr

Just checked in at the Wynn to meet up with a craps friend and discovered they just changed the Craps Odds to 2x. I wasn't thrilled with the 3/4/5 but that is the price of playing with the big boys.

what is a *big boy* at craps?
is it the SIZE of their butt?

yuck! if true
stay away!!

i have played craps all over the world and have never heard this term B4
"playing with the big boys"

Quote: howesmr

For full odds and double Come with full odds bettor this could be expensive.

really?

Quote: howesmr

Raises the edge from .374 to .572.

you are now talking about the combined edge

Quote: howesmr

If my math is right and it probably isn't

you say

Quote: howesmr

that increases the cost of a $100 average bettor from $15.71/hr to $24.02/hr.

there is no cost increase if you mean expected loss

$100 with 0 odds
$100 with 1X odds
$100 with 2X odds
$100 with 3X odds
all have the same expected loss

that = -7/495 * $FlatBet * #BetsMade

say it isn't so!
added
i mean both LA baseball teams are now in 1st place
my Angels were under last night but came over today!
Yahoo!!

I simply meant the larger premium casinos. They have to pay for the room some how. I basically have played enough to get free rooms at the Wynn. I prefer Reno and the Comp system at GSR, I seem to do very well there in play and rewards. If I wasn't with my wife i would like frequent more downtown in Vegas.

I was just upset at the change from 3/4/5 to 2x and thought I would pass that along.


My team is the Red Sox and they are certainly not 1st unless you are looking at the standings upside down.

2x Odds? Really?

I won't ever play craps there; likely, I've made my only visit to their empire.

So the house edge goes up just barely but wouldn't that most likely just offset the fact that they're limiting RoR by helping pass line players not over bet their bankrolls and go busto?

The odds bet does not change the house edge.


I can't believe the Wynn would switch to 2x odds. Unfortunate.


In other news, I recently noticed they added 6:5 BJ. I remember not long ago still thinking at least the Wynn doesn't offer 6:5.

Quote: Mooseton

but wouldn't that most likely just offset the fact that they're limiting RoR by helping pass line players not over bet their bankrolls and go busto?

no i do not think that is a fact under all conditions
this is a myth for pass line bets, imo

here is some data (simulated except for the no odds values)
object is to increase the start unit bankroll (1X, 2x or 3x)
values are bust %s
green = better (lower bust %)



those with the 10 units (like $10 flat bets and $100 buy-in)
and 2x odds do better than 345x odds it appears in doubling to at least 20 units
i mean duh, over bet = true

but for other values of bank units
345x still has the lower busto %s

who would have thought!

Double odds instead of x3-4-5? I am disappointed by the Wynn.

I was just getting used to playing their $10 minimum craps at x3-4-5, but I guess I'll have to look for better odds and minimums in the area.

Next they will get rid of all $15 blackjack tables at 3:2.

--helpmespock

I heard they took a hit recently, around $300k.

Quote: RS

I heard they took a hit recently, around $300k.

If that has ANYTHING to do with why they changed their odds limits, they are bigger knuckleheads than I thought. $300k is not a very big hit at all for a casino of that size.

I think this is just another bean counter move that may start a trend of less friendly gambling conditions even though most people don't max their odds out, so the actual impact may not be all that much.

A 300k hit is nothing for Wynn. That can't be the reason why they changed this.

I agree that this is likely a bean counter move.

Wynn is a nice place to walk through and take a couple pictures, but I wouldn't waste my time gambling there.

Just another indication most gamblers of all size bankrolls just don't care about playing conditions along as they are made to feel good by the casino.

Is this a new trend or an old trend that is now hip, like PBR being a cool beer???? I vaguely remember that decades ago 2x was the normal.

Based on the chatter in the Wynn at the tables and the Casino Hosts it has caused quite a stir. The rate has changed 3 times in three days for pay allowed odds. not pure 2x. Like 30 pass allows 100 odds on a 6 or 8, 25 pass on a 5 or 9 and you can have 60 odds.

The dealers weren't happy and lots of players grumbling and walking away. The hosts weren't informed a head of time either. There is a single 3/4/5 table with 100 limit in the high room but the yelling for wins in there has Baccarat players irritated and I would imagine they are not a good group to alienate. The hosts are getting an earful. While I was talking with mine 2 other players came in to have the same discussion.

The word is the buzz is on the strip and many assume everyone will follow Steve Wynn. The play at the table was more weighted to the Place Bets that normal in my opinion.

Quote: howesmr

Based on the chatter in the Wynn at the tables and the Casino Hosts it has caused quite a stir. The rate has changed 3 times in three days for pay allowed odds. not pure 2x. Like 30 pass allows 100 odds on a 6 or 8, 25 pass on a 5 or 9 and you can have 60 odds.

The dealers weren't happy and lots of players grumbling and walking away. The hosts weren't informed a head of time either. There is a single 3/4/5 table with 100 limit in the high room but the yelling for wins in there has Baccarat players irritated and I would imagine they are not a good group to alienate. The hosts are getting an earful. While I was talking with mine 2 other players came in to have the same discussion.

The word is the buzz is on the strip and many assume everyone will follow Steve Wynn. The play at the table was more weighted to the Place Bets that normal in my opinion.

Thanks for chiming in. I can't believe this is happening and hope that they're embarrassed into changing it back soon.

I don't want this to spread like 6:5.

Poker players in town and staying around this area. It could be temporary.

Quote: Ahigh

Poker players in town and staying around this area. It could be temporary.

This seems like a drastic change for the purpose of squeezing some WSOP players.

Quote: Pokeraddict

This seems like a drastic change for the purpose of squeezing some WSOP players.

You're right. Less likely things happen every single day though.

Quote: Pokeraddict

This seems like a drastic change for the purpose of squeezing some WSOP players.

wsop is over for now.
final 9 have been determined.

heard #1 stack has 60M chips. #2 stack has 30M.
#1 doesn't even need to show up day1 of the final table and he's virtually guaranteed 3rd place.

and what does wsop have to do w/the wynn?
how many wsop players are staying at the wynn??

Quote: RS

The odds bet does not change the house edge.

Please explain. Consider two players:

Adam: Makes only pass bets and backs them up with 2x odds.

Eve: Makes only pass bets and backs them up with 3-4-5x odds.

What is the overall house edge of each player?

Quote: Wizard

Adam: Makes only pass bets and backs them up with 2x odds.

Eve: Makes only pass bets and backs them up with 3-4-5x odds.

What is the overall house edge of each player?

i say this is a really bad (poor) example because it leads directly to the comment
"well, both players have the same expected loss
and that makes the odds bet just optional, no difference"


and that should also point out they both have way different average bets
one more than the other
2.47 units vs 3.78


let us try to balance that out and see

i say Eve (Adam is her hubby too)
bets $25 (green is good) with 345X odds for an average bet of $94.44

Adam says, "i can get close to that to make you happier"
i make $38 flat bets with FULL 2X odds
(drive them dealers nutty... 38with95 odds for 6&8)
average bet now at $93.94

50cents to the boys!

total action over 500 weekend bets
Adam: $46,972.22
Eve: $47,222.22
that looks much much better (Steen agrees too)
Eve still bets more

now who has a larger average loss?
and percentage wise?

of course, it is not that big of an actual (?) $ difference over a weekend of play
at $92
comps to the rescue

thank you for sharing
Sally

I went and asked questions. Several things are different.

Right now they are operating four tables at $10 and up, and one table at $100 and up in the high limit room. There are two tables in the high limit rooms, one in the back area. They may have one reserved high limit table open besides the $100 table.

$100 and up is 345x, and $5000 max line.
$10 game allows $100 odds on $30 pass line when point is six or eight

These are some strange changes, really. I think that Jerry's Nugget also let's you bet $10 odds on a $3 pass. But $100 on a $30 is just really weird to me.

I did talk to the pit crew, and I got some feedback from them about what their thoughts were.

But it's clear it's not to prevent exposure. Dealers on hand had speculation relating to what it might be about, but it seemed that nobody really knew.

There was lamenting that they felt that business was being run off from being unhappy about being told about the odds situation.

I jabbed at them a couple of times, listing the other casinos that offer double odds, and there was laughter. But overall, the pit did not seem happy about the changes.

The other differences is that they are going to open up another four craps tables in an area under construction, so there will be 8 on main floor and either one or two in high limit.

There are actually quite a few changes happening at the Wynn right now. The only thing that I could think of that might make sense would be if they wanted to take craps players in the $10 to $50 limit and raise prices for them a bit to get the same amount of action.

I played no odds and just stacked up chips and made 50% profit from my buy-in. I think I hit a $25 ten, and everything else was line, come, or place 6/8.

Quote: mustangsally

i say this is a really bad (poor) example because it leads directly to the comment
"well, both players have the same expected loss
and that makes the odds bet just optional, no difference"

I didn't ask for the expected loss but the overall house edge. Assuming equal pass bets, I agree the expected loss is equal. However, if the goal is to minimize expected loss -- put your money in the change machine.

For the recreational player, gambling is about buying entertainment. Let's assume that Adam and Eve each make $5 pass bets. I'm sure we can agree their expected loss will be the same. But which player will get getting more money on the table and thus getting more entertainment?

Quote: Wizard

I didn't ask for the expected loss but the overall house edge.

i knew you would come back with that
of course the combined house edge will be lower
exactly what you want to hear
but that is over a larger average bet

that is how the ev stays the same as most know

Quote: Wizard

Assuming equal pass bets, I agree the expected loss is equal.

but you must agree that the 345x player has the lower combined house edge

so what is your conclusion from that?

Quote: Wizard

But which player will get getting more money on the table and thus getting more entertainment?

more money on the table = more entertainment?
we all can vote on that

how about this one right back

if both players have a loss from their session of play, who has the larger (average) loss?
how much (or what kind of) entertainment does that produce?

or is it priceless?

AHigh.

Thanks for asking those questions. This is one thread that deeply troubles me.
I thought not playing blackjack allowed me avoiding all that "6:5" nonsense; now I got THIS "2X crap" to worry about, possibly lurking in the shadows at my favorite places to play on the strip. Never played at the Wynn but I am worried about the spread down the way.
This is a more serious move to target a larger pool of players than the "Double 2&12 in the Field" business, is it not?
Please keep this thread active with updates.

Thanks

Quote: howesmr

Just checked in at the Wynn to meet up with a craps friend and discovered they just changed the Craps Odds to 2x. I wasn't thrilled with the 3/4/5 but that is the price of playing with the big boys. For full odds and double Come with full odds bettor this could be expensive. Raises the edge from .374 to .572. If my math is right and it probably isn't that increases the cost of a $100 average bettor from $15.71/hr to $24.02/hr.

Looks like this is my last visit unless they fix it.

You know, this could actually be a good thing.

I would advise against playing odds. They are true odds bets, meaning they have no impact on your bottom line. What they do is increase variance, which (as a general rule) does nothing but shortens your session at the tables. That whole "lost/won $400 in 10 minutes" thing is what odds brings to the table.

All you odds players, have you ever stopped to wonder why the casino offers true odds bets? Hint: It isn't because they're forced to.

Quote: Eric721

You know, this could actually be a good thing.

I would advise against playing odds. They are true odds bets, meaning they have no impact on your bottom line. What they do is increase variance, which (as a general rule) does nothing but shortens your session at the tables. That whole "lost/won $400 in 10 minutes" thing is what odds brings to the table.

All you odds players, have you ever stopped to wonder why the casino offers true odds bets? Hint: It isn't because they're forced to.

The Wynn is just making a ton of changes. Maybe they are just doing this to get people talking about what they are doing.

There were black curtains and "under construction" all over the place there.

Something is going on...

Quote: Ahigh

The Wynn is just making a ton of changes. Maybe they are just doing this to get people talking about what they are doing.

There were black curtains and "under construction" all over the place there.

Something is going on...

Maybe Steve found out "Popeye" isn't worth what he paid for it.

Quote: Ahigh

The Wynn is just making a ton of changes. Maybe they are just doing this to get people talking about what they are doing.

There were black curtains and "under construction" all over the place there.

Something is going on...

Today's stupid follow up question:

Has the Encore(next door to Wynn, also owned by Wynn) property also gone to 2 X odds in craps?

Quote: 100xOdds

wsop is over for now.
final 9 have been determined.

heard #1 stack has 60M chips. #2 stack has 30M.
#1 doesn't even need to show up day1 of the final table and he's virtually guaranteed 3rd place.

and what does wsop have to do w/the wynn?
how many wsop players are staying at the wynn??

Should be on the wsop site. I'll go look now. Just curious however, the #1 stack player doesn't have to show up the first day? Are you sure about that? Thanks in advance.

Quote: NokTang

Should be on the wsop site. I'll go look now. Just curious however, the #1 stack player doesn't have to show up the first day? Are you sure about that? Thanks in advance.

I assume 100xOdds means that he could fold every hand on the first day (which I assume is how it would be treated - antes and blinds would be taken from his stack as if he was there - if he wasn't actually there) and still end up in the final three.

The "November Nine", with chip counts, are listed here.

Quote: mustangsally

i knew you would come back with that
of course the combined house edge will be lower
exactly what you want to hear
but that is over a larger average bet

I think we both agree with the math of this. How could we not?

Our point of departure seems to be whether it is good advice to recreational players to take full odds. I say it is, assuming the player is comfortable with the risk. If somebody is going to gamble anyway, then he should at least lose as little as possible.

Quote: Boz

Maybe Steve found out "Popeye" isn't worth what he paid for it.

I could have told him that.

I saw that thing on a trip last year. Took a picture of it. Didn't think much of it. Just another random thing in Vegas to look at for 30 seconds before moving on down the hallway.

Then a few weeks later I see an article saying he paid $28 million for it. Blew my mind. What a waste of money.

Quote: ams288

I could have told him that.

I saw that thing on a trip last year. Took a picture of it. Didn't think much of it. Just another random thing in Vegas to look at for 30 seconds before moving on down the hallway.

Then a few weeks later I see an article saying he paid $28 million for it. Blew my mind. What a waste of money.

Yeah, but $28 million to him is a ten cents to us.

Quote: Wizard

Our point of departure seems to be whether it is good advice to recreational players to take full odds. I say it is, assuming the player is comfortable with the risk. If somebody is going to gamble anyway, then he should at least lose as little as possible.

That's where the line gets blurry. These two concepts are not necessarily the same.

$10 flat + 3/4/5x odds and $10 flat + 2x odds have the same expected loss, so "losing as little as possible" isn't the distinction. Between those two choices, the distinction is in the variance. If the table is a $10 minimum, there's nothing you can do to minimize the loss beyond making those $10 bets.

I think the example you mean to use is something like $50 line bets with 2x odds ($150 each point) vs. $30 line bets with 3/4/5x odds ($120, $150, $180). That's reasonably close in terms of overall action -- but it's also not a typical line of reasoning. Virtually nobody comes to the table and says "I want to wager an expected $150 per line bet, how can I minimize my loss as a percentage?" Usually it's "I'm playing the table minimum so what odds can I take?" If you're at a $10 table and making minimum bets, you can't go down to $5+3/4/5x just to shift your action toward odds.

I can see that being more of a consideration if the table were $5+20x, and I recall there are several tables like that off the strip (Stations, I think). For someone who really wants to grind at a dice table, maybe that's worth the drive. But if you're staying at the Wynn already, chances are you're not the demographic to get in a cab and go to Boulder Station to shoot dice.

Maybe the suggestion "make one $10 bet with 3/4/5x odds instead of two $10 bets with 2x odds" has merit -- it does cut the theoretical loss in half -- but on the other hand if it's not as entertaining then overall it's a worse strategy for the recreational player. The cost of another $10 line bet is only 14 cents. That's easily justified if you have a better time playing the game.

I used to think that minimizing theo was of paramount importance. Now that I'm older (and have more money) I've changed my tune. I think that *understanding* theo and accounting for it is more appropriate, but "accounting for" is not always the same as "minimizing". I'm willing to play craps on the Strip because I would rather be on the Strip around well-heeled nonsmokers than in a smoky locals joint 20 minutes away by cab. I know the theoretical cost of the higher bets (usually $15 minimums these days) and I'm willing to pay it.

Perhaps that calculus isn't as apropos for locals, but for us tourists (and/or ex-locals) who don't have ready access to dice tables, and who have to spend hundreds of dollars just to get to and stay in Las Vegas, fretting over an extra $30 in expected loss just isn't worth it. That's about the cost of two hundred (200) $10 line bets, about six hours at the table. I'll start to care again when the theo gets into the 3 or 4 figure range, but I don't know that I've *ever* had a single craps session with a 3 or 4 figure expected loss. I just don't bet that big. Green chips are my limit right now. Maybe after I have an 8-figure net worth I'll step up to black chips but I'm not there yet.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

Yeah, but $28 million to him is a ten cents to us.

Just what 50 cent thought. Made close to 200 million in the last 10 years and wants to file bankruptcy now for a 5 million dollar judgement.

ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

Just what 50 cent thought. Made close to 200 million in the last 10 years and wants to file bankruptcy now for a 5 million dollar judgement.

ZCore13

Probably smoked it all away.

Quote: Wizard

Our point of departure seems to be whether it is good advice to recreational players to take full odds. I say it is, assuming the player is comfortable with the risk.

how do they know what the risk is?
they are just to trust the advice when given?

I am guessing by
guessing
or just thinking about it
or
not thinking about it

you telling a player to always bet max odds as long as they are comfor-table, your opinion,
sounds like bad advice to that player
when they are actually losing over X number of bets

Quote: Wizard

If somebody is going to gamble anyway, then he should at least lose as little as possible.

of course
but

the public perception for the game of craps is that to win
it is a skill choosing the right bets to make at the right time
one can bet with or against the house is the cry
(unlike BJ where one can only bet that the player will win and not the house)

in other words
one will lose when they make the wrong bet (could be a right bet)
bet selection and money management is the public perception
to losing less or winning more while playing the game of craps

there is too much experience on the public side to change that

as i pointed out earlier, 345X odds does not make a player's RoR higher under equal betting situations
compared to a Full2X odds player

even tho public belief is
that it does


getting back to the combined house edge you asked about

why do you say it is important to have that lower (max odds take) when it does nothing to change the expected loss when the flat bets are the same?
or do you not say that?

Quote: MathExtremist

I used to think that minimizing theo was of paramount importance.

does that not lead us to what is the advantage of taking the odds?

here is from Steen
"The correct conclusion is that taking odds reduces your average loss per dollar of action"

is it that simple?

i guess it looks to B

that's horrible. I heard about this couple days ago too. I was so shocked because they're one of a few big boys in town, I wonder why would they do that? But the good news is there are plenty of other casinos on the Strips offer much better odds then Wynn and the minimum isn't so high.

SLS has 1 table offer 10x odds flat across the board, and 4 others are 3/4/5

Red Rock has 10 odds too I believe I was just there last night.

Venetian is still 3/4/5
MGM, Bellagio, Cosmo, Aria are still good.

MSS is still 20x I believe.

The bottom line is the combined house edge under 2x odds is 0.606% and under 3-4-5x odds is 0.374%.

Let's consider these two players:

Adam: 2x odds with an average pass line bet of $100.

Eve: 3-4-5x odds with an average pass line bet of $61.72

Both players will risk the same amount of money but Eve will lose 38.3% less on average.

My advice is to 2x players is to simply cut your pass bets by 38% and walk over to a casino that takes 3-4-5x odds. The player will get the same amount of action and lose less money.

For those who just want to enjoy the casino ambiance with as little cost and risk as possible, I agree, just bet the minimum on the pass and no odds. Or bet equal amounts on the pass and don't pass if minimizing variance is paramount.

Quote: Wizard

Adam: 2x odds with an average pass line bet of $100.
Eve: 3-4-5x odds with an average pass line bet of $61.72
Both players will risk the same amount of money but Eve will lose 38.3% less on average.

My advice is to 2x players is to simply cut your pass bets by 38% and walk over to a casino that takes 3-4-5x odds. The player will get the same amount of action and lose less money.

All absolutely true, but I submit that virtually nobody thinks about total action when playing craps. I'd bet that the majority of $100/2x players at the Wynn would not, as a matter of course, walk to the Palazzo across the street to play $60 or $65 with 3-4-5x. No question that it costs less, but also no question that $100 players get different treatment than $60 players. I'm not just talking about comps.

It's a different story if you're shooting angles and trying to scoop up EV from improperly accepting dealer overpays/mistakes. If that's the approach, certainly betting oddball numbers like $62 would increase the chances of that happening. Two green, two red, two white for the flat, plus 4x odds on a point of 5 is two black, one green, four red, three white. Good luck not getting nasty looks from the pit crew on that...

Quote: MathExtremist

If that's the approach, certainly betting oddball numbers like $62 would increase the chances of that happening. Two green, two red, two white for the flat, plus 4x odds on a point of 5 is two black, one green, four red, three white. Good luck not getting nasty looks from the pit crew on that...

Some decent toking ought to be able to take care of most of the nasty looks.

Quote: MathExtremist

All absolutely true, but I submit that virtually nobody thinks about total action when playing craps.

I'm going to have to disagree with you there, but I think you have history on your side. I didn't think the average person was stupid enough to deal with 6:5, obviously I was wrong.

I'm more afraid of odds becoming something you can buy with a higher minimum like they have with 3:2. The difference between a $10 table at 3,4,5x and a $25 at 3,4,5x is pretty drastic in the variance world.

Quote: Ahigh

The Wynn is just making a ton of changes. Maybe they are just doing this to get people talking about what they are doing.

There were black curtains and "under construction" all over the place there.

Something is going on...

The dealers I talked to seem to think they were being cheated of watching all the girls go. The old spot had a lot of distractions, now they are in the middle of the casino. Maybe there was too much congestion there and they want the hooting a hollering to draw people on the floor.

Quote: NokTang

Today's stupid follow up question:

Has the Encore(next door to Wynn, also owned by Wynn) property also gone to 2 X odds in craps?

Yes Encore is 2X too

Quote: Wizard

Our point of departure seems to be whether it is good advice to recreational players to take full odds. I say it is, assuming the player is comfortable with the risk.

No, no, no.

This mentality is easy to fall into because most people ignore the come-out roll, which is a ridiculously large part of craps and can't (or at very least shouldn't) be ignored.

Odds serve no purpose whatsoever except to increase your variance. That has exactly one effect: you reach your loss limit faster. Odds in no way affect the expectation; they have none. The line bets retain their original expected value, and the odds carry zero expectation, thus 1.41% (or 1.40%) plus zero is still 1.41%. (or 1.40%.) So when you play odds, all you are doing is shortening your lifespan at the table. Yet countless other gamblers love to tell me about how I'm failing to take advantage of the odds, without realizing that they are the ones being taken advantage of.

As I was getting at earlier, the most favorable position in the casino is the come-out roll on a pass or come bet. Betting odds minimizes this position. I'd much rather put my money on the line for the come-out than I would leaving it behind the line with an expected value of nothing.

Quote: Wizard

If somebody is going to gamble anyway, then he should at least lose as little as possible.

If minimizing losses is the highest priority, you can't gamble in the first place. For all practical purposes, in order to minimize losses you absolutely must define your session bankroll, win limit, and loss limit, and then tailor a system within those criteria. Debating without those ideas at the forefront is irrelevant and often misleading, since real-world limitations change what is or is not the best strategy. As a general rule, though, there is no such thing as "minimizing losses." Whatever your loss limit is for a session, that's what you have to plan to lose.