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NowTheSerpent
NowTheSerpent
Joined: Sep 30, 2011
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December 1st, 2011 at 1:51:09 PM permalink
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NowTheSerpent
NowTheSerpent
Joined: Sep 30, 2011
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January 4th, 2012 at 4:46:46 AM permalink
The relative advantage "X" traditionally has over "O" by going first is negated by the opening Flip which decides which brand actually leads (plays first). All X and O bet placement MUST close prior to the Flip.

The Flip consists of turning over the first of 36 freshly-shuffled cards - "A" (as "1") through "9" in the four suits - and declaring "X" the Lead if the suit is black, or "O" if the suit is red. The rank shown on this card also indicates the number of the square into which this first Lead tile is placed. The next card is then dealt and if its rank is different from that of the first card, the first Follow tile is placed into the square with that number. Each brand thus fills the squares alternately as each new rank appears. Cards are dealt on a the same turn of a brand until a yet-undealt rank is introduced. Suit is irrelevant after the very first card of a new game.

The first Tic-Tac-Toe (any line horizontally, vertically, or diagonally of three tiles of the same brand) to appear pays even money to the bet on the winning brand. If the Lead forms two intersecting Tic-Tac-Toes simultaneously on the ninth move (called a Xmack-dOwn), the payout is 3 to 1.

Sample deal:

First card: "4" of Diamonds - Red card >> "O" leads and is placed in square #4.
Second Card: "8" of Hearts - "X" is placed into square #8.
Third Card: "3" of Spades - "O" is placed in square #3
Fourth card: "6" of Hearts - "X" is placed in square #6.
Fifth Card: "2" of Hearts - "O" is placed in square #2.
Sixth Card: "A" of Diamonds - "X" is placed in square #1.
Seventh Card: "2" of Clubs - square #2 is filled, so another card is dealt.
Eighth Card: "2" of Diamonds - deal again.
Ninth Card: "3" of Spades - square #3 is filled, so yet another card is dealt.
Tenth Card: "5" of Spades - "O" is placed in square #5.
Eleventh Card: "9" of Spades - "X" is placed in square #9, leaving empty only square #7 into which to place an "O" and thus form a diagonal three-line (#3, #5, #7) in "O". All O bets are paid even money; all other bets are collected.

A tie (full board with no Tic-Tac-Toe) pushes the bet whose tile occupies the center square and takes the other. 32 of the possible 252 full boards are ties; 16 have an "X" in the center and 16 have an "O". So, the probability of a tie is 12.7% or 160 out of 1,260, with 80 pushes each to X and to O.

The Lead will win 58.5% of all games, or 737 out of 1,260, with 44 (3.5%) as Xmack-dOwns; 363 (28.8%) will be won by the Follow.

So, the E. G. for 1,260 X or O bets (each dealing half the time on average) is = {0.5 [(1,056 x 2) + (44 x 4) + (160 x 1)] - 1,260}/1,260 = -2.86%

As for the side bets:

Tie - pays 6 to 1.

All-Points - for same brand in every corner square - pays 17 to 1 (NOTE: This bet can win even if some corners don't actually fill);

RSVP with your comments.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
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January 4th, 2012 at 5:33:30 AM permalink
OK. I'll be the first to post what everyone else is probably thinking:


I had no idea what the hell you were talking about a month ago, and posting the exact same thing today does not help me understand it.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
NowTheSerpent
NowTheSerpent
Joined: Sep 30, 2011
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January 4th, 2012 at 7:08:20 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

OK. I'll be the first to post what everyone else is probably thinking:


I had no idea what the hell you were talking about a month ago, and posting the exact same thing today does not help me understand it.



Actually, I made some changes; that's the only reason I refreshed the comment. I was only away for a month because I had no internet. What in particular would you most like for me to clarify?
Paradigm
Paradigm
Joined: Feb 24, 2011
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January 4th, 2012 at 12:39:29 PM permalink
Serp, have you checked with National Table Games to see if they got any traction with this game back in 2009?

http://wizardofodds.com/games/tic-tac-toe/

I would want to understand if National had any success with their Tic Tac Toe concept beyond the initial trial in order to feel informed enough to give you any feedback on your TTT game version.
DJTeddyBear
DJTeddyBear
Joined: Nov 2, 2009
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January 4th, 2012 at 12:55:32 PM permalink
The Wiz' page has a link to National's website - to a page about the game: http://www.nationaltg.com/tictactoe.htm

However, that page no longer exists, and the main webpage, http://www.nationaltg.com/ is just a placeholder, with an email link.

Call it a hunch, but I'd say they didn't have any success with it.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
NowTheSerpent
NowTheSerpent
Joined: Sep 30, 2011
  • Threads: 15
  • Posts: 417
January 4th, 2012 at 2:26:21 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

The Wiz' page has a link to National's website - to a page about the game: http://www.nationaltg.com/tictactoe.htm

However, that page no longer exists, and the main webpage, http://www.nationaltg.com/ is just a placeholder, with an email link.

Call it a hunch, but I'd say they didn't have any success with it.



That may be because that game wasn't real Tic-Tac-Toe, where characters alternate turns. There, cards were just randomly dealt from a shoe and placed according to a house way until a three-in-a-row formed. The "X" and "O" might alternate sometimes (half the time, at best) but the game didn't really imitate real T-cubed very well, not as well as War or Shut-The-Box imitate their respective origins. To be fair, NTG's game did not require any props beyond specially-printed playing cards (which wouldn't technically be necessary), and I understand simplicity as key economically there, but the price paid was that it just didn't feel the same. My version would benefit from some additional props to make things convenient, all of which are customizable, and the gameplay is preserved - that goal was left for me. So as long as players don't think it's the same game, it may have a chance. The deal time per four games is under 4 minutes, shuffle to shuffle, so imagine what an auto-shuffler could do to save time. A marked board with removable letter figures would probably yield to an integrated mechanism with turnable prisms. But the real reason for finishing this was to fulfill a creative need - make an old, simple kids' game bettable. Whether anybody picks it up has very little to do with the perfection of the game itself. That has more to do with adult gamblers' willingness to play a familiar oldie - something which, inspired by Craps and Casino War, has come to appeal to me, if not other makers.
Paradigm
Paradigm
Joined: Feb 24, 2011
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January 4th, 2012 at 2:28:26 PM permalink
DJ, you are right on the website stuff for National. Not sure what is going on there as their site used to have all their games on it (they have a bunch more titles besides the Tic Tac Toe game). Their most successful game is Flop Poker and it is still doing well on the Gulf Coast & Midwest the last time I heard.

They must be re-doing their site, it wasn't the cleanest I have seen.

I don't know what happened with their Tic Tac Toe game. I know quite well how hard it is to try and introduce a new table game that isn't a variant or side bet to an existing game concept (i.e. BJ, Poker, Roulette, Bacc & craps) so my guess is getting any TTT concept to be successful is a challenge.

I think Serp should find out what happened there as part of the process.....maybe he already has.

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