NowTheSerpent
NowTheSerpent
Joined: Sep 30, 2011
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October 6th, 2011 at 11:03:49 AM permalink
The "Hardways-Odds" bet, in addition to the classic "Odds" wager, may be placed on any Point which may be rolled hardways (4, 6, 8, or 10). The establishment may occur either easy or hard, but the conversion must happen hard for the bet to win. If the bet is against the easyways of the Point ONLY, then the payout is 4-to-1 for 3&3 or 4&4 conversions,and 2-to-1 for 2&2 or 5&5 conversions, with a return of the Hardways-Odds unpaid on "7". If the bet is against the "7" also, the 3&3/4&4 pay is 10-to-1 and the 2&2/5&5 payout is 8-to-1, while the "7" loses the bet. The interesting thing was that employing this bet as a "Pass"/"Come" bonus option, assuming it is always played, makes the "Pass"/"Come" house edge nearly the same as the "Don't" edge. For example, 2X-Odds (on all Points) along with 2X-Hardways-Odds (on all hardways-eligible Points) reduces the "Pass"/"Come" edge to 0.4389%, which nearly matches the 0.4545% edge on the 2X-Odds-Laid "Dont's".
rudeboyoi
rudeboyoi
Joined: Mar 28, 2010
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October 6th, 2011 at 12:27:07 PM permalink
not gonna happen. the hardway bets are one of the most profitable bets for the casino in craps. not very smart to deter people from betting on them.
NowTheSerpent
NowTheSerpent
Joined: Sep 30, 2011
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October 7th, 2011 at 12:58:31 AM permalink
Quote: rudeboyoi

not gonna happen. the hardway bets are one of the most profitable bets for the casino in craps. not very smart to deter people from betting on them.



Good point.

But, Hardways bets can be made at any time on any even box number, whereas the "Hardways-Odds" bet could only back up a new "Pass-Line" or "Come" bet. Conventional "Odds" bets haven't made "Place" and "Buy" bets obsolete, so I'm not sure "Hardways" bets would necessarily die at the hands of "Hardways-Odds" bets, either, since the latter would probably remain unadvertised, anyway. For all I know, many casinos may already book such a bet, just on the down-low.

BTW, Thanks for the input. :)
MathExtremist
MathExtremist
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October 10th, 2011 at 11:25:33 AM permalink
Before you go spending money on expensive patent fees, that sounds very similar to U.S. Pat. No. 6,802,508 to Ernest Moody, inventor of Triple Play Poker:
U.S. 6,802,508, Hard way true odds craps.
I happen to remember that one from prosecution of my own dice game patent.
"In my own case, when it seemed to me after a long illness that death was close at hand, I found no little solace in playing constantly at dice." -- Girolamo Cardano, 1563
NowTheSerpent
NowTheSerpent
Joined: Sep 30, 2011
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October 31st, 2011 at 2:34:31 AM permalink
Quote: MathExtremist

Before you go spending money on expensive patent fees, that sounds very similar to U.S. Pat. No. 6,802,508 to Ernest Moody, inventor of Triple Play Poker:
U.S. 6,802,508, Hard way true odds craps.
I happen to remember that one from prosecution of my own dice game patent.



Thanks for the link, and I checked it out. It seems that the bets pay very differently. The patented one pays even money for an easyways pass, whereas mine just loses. The patented one loses on a P7O, whereas mine just pushes. The latter seems to make more sense, since the bet is against only the easyways before hardways, which for a Point of "4" or "10" is two ways to one, and for a Point of "6" or "8" is four ways to one; for the record:

Moody HWP Bet Return = (3 for 1)(1 way of 3&3) + (2 for 1)(4 ways of "6" easy) + (3 for 1)(1 way of 4&4) + (2 for 1)(4 ways of "8" easy) +
(5 for 1)(1 way of 2&2) + (2 for 1)2 ways of "4" easy) + (5 for 1)(1 way of 5&5) + (2 for 1)(2 ways of "10" easy)

= 3 + 8 + 3 + 8 + 5 + 4 +5 + 4 = 11 + 11 + 9 + 9 = 40, or 100% so, yes, true odds. ;)

Serpent HWO Bet Return = [(5 for 1)(1) + (1 for 1)(6 ways of "7") + (3 for 1)(1) + (1 for 1)(6 ways of "7")] x 2 = 40, or 100%. ;)

Also, the patented bet has a "Don't" bet analog at inverse odds, which seems puzzling, since the dark side bets against the Point entirely. Thus my proposed HWO bet has no "Don't" counterpart. (Granted, my proposed bet could be reengineered to be against the six ways of the "7" also, and thus would pay 8-to-1 or 10-to-1 and lose on a P7O, but I wondered whether that might make the HWO bet too much like the Hardways Bets in the center, and I didn't want to create an unprofitable incentive to the casinos to curtail those bets, as they are moneymakers). These play differences may constitute the emergence of a separate, non-infringing product. P.S., I love Moody's Triple-Play Poker idea.

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