Marketing Idea for Casinos

I know it's not a new game, but it's a good idea, loosely based on Groupon (Group Coupon).

A smallish casino but probably one with two craps tables advertises that it will sell the right to a zero-house edge craps game for one hour at an upcoming date. The requirement is that at least 25 people sign up for $400 in special chips to be pre-paid for by pay-pal. These 25 people show up to a reserved craps table and all pays are adjusted to full odds (except for pass and don't pass line). So field bet pays 3 to 1 for both 2 and 12, there is no commission on buying a 4 and a 10, the hard ways are adjusted from "8 for 1" to "8 to 1", and so forth. The special odds last as long as the special chips are used. It is permitted to purchase $800 or $1200 worth of advance chips. Once the minimum number of people is reached, the pay-pal accounts are charged and bar codes are provided to be printed and taken to the casino.

Where does the casino make out? In two primary ways:
(1) As with every advance purchase scheme, sooner or later someone will purchase the advance chips and then not show up at the casino. Since the entry price is reasonably high, most of the time it won't happen.
(2) The casino will attract 25 people with $10K to gamble over a short amount of time. Once they are in the casino, the casino is free to pass out coupons for free pizza after a two hour wait to encourage them to stay and gamble afterwards at regular house edge.

The basic idea here is that the normal drop on a craps table in a downtown casino is about $18K per day. If you could manage to sell two such events per day that would involve a drop of $10K per event. Now you have the opportunity to get those people to stay longer and play at regular house edge. Maybe a sweetener could be added (like keeping no commission on the buy 4 and 10 where the bet can be 2X the line bet).

Following the example of groupon, the deal is automatically cancelled for everyone if not enough people sign up in the allotted time.

Caution. While I would never think PacoMartin a bad businessman, I would advise caution.

First. Look at all the massive bad press recently about Groupon starting with the Coffee Shop coupon and blogs about software and unlawful discounts in violation of consumer protection laws.

Second, consider how many loyal and existing customers you might be offending with this promotion.

Third, consider how many responders are already your customers.

If your casino is not particularly crowded, just send out some mailers. Have the special at that pizza booth and hope they wander over to the craps table later. Also... how many darned dealer mistakes you gonna have before and afterwards?

This promotion is limited to those who can crowd around a craps table during the special event... you can crowd more people around the pizza booth. I'd say change the promotion to: deposit X dollars with our cashier, get a coupon for a meal, but get it validated at our craps table first ... More money would come in that way with no offense to your existing customer base, no confusion at the table about the rules and no lingering aftertaste about it. (Changing the payouts must be as anger inducing as changing the table minimums).

I have a theory that you don't see much about fair odds promotions for several reasons:

*people don't understand what it means
*those that do are looking for player advantage instead
*casinos don't like people thinking about what fair odds are and subsequently backing off from bad bets
*casinos care more about attracting suckers than what this would attract

but I like it and would go for it, opportunity allowing

That is true. The fanny-pack wearing half-sloshed tourist doesn't understand or care.
The players who do understand are already sharpies and won't be swayed much.
The average player will focus on the normally encountered odds and be resentful as well as confused.

Quote: pacomartin

I know it's not a new game, but it's a good idea, loosely based on Groupon (Group Coupon).

A smallish casino but probably one with two craps tables advertises that it will sell the right to a zero-house edge craps game for one hour at an upcoming date. The requirement is that at least 25 people sign up for $400 in special chips to be pre-paid for by pay-pal. These 25 people show up to a reserved craps table and all pays are adjusted to full odds (except for pass and don't pass line).

Frank, did you know if you made the don't pass "bar-12 is 1/2 win", and the pass line "12 rolled is 1/2 lose" then pass line and don't pass line bets become 0% house edge, or true pay either way to include the line? Also the come line "1/2 loss on 12" and the DC "1/2 win on 12" makes those bets true even money.

Your whole game is now 0% house edge.
PM me for the specs to full true "no-house edge craps" in every bet offered.

That is interesting. However I think the thrust of the promotion is not the "zero house edge craps" but the getting scads of people who have money to show up for the zero house edge craps.

I think a better promotion would be a Sunrise Special. At six in the morning, the craps table goes to some special deal such as zero house edge or atleast zero edge in the field or something like that. This way people would stay longer or get there earlier for a "special deal" and then linger during the normal craps.

I have to admit I liked this until I read the replies and realized only APs care about odds and the same APs will leave the minute the promotion ends.

You coulod be on to something withthe Groupon idea, however. But, sadly, what you want *is* the fanny-pack-wearing-camera-toting-big6-playing-monster-margaretta-drinking tourist who asks why they can't get paid 11-10 instead of 6-5 on BJ.

What would attract them? I'd say some kind of free-action on a high house-edge game. Free 1-1 bet when you put 2 other bets on Big-6? Free $1 back or red bet on roulette if you put $5 behind the line? Free $1 bet to complete a "star" of your favorite roulette number??

I'd say free bet on the USD$1 on Big-6 if you bet two other numbers. This allows that you will still have a loss of at least 2 of the 3 bets in play and a strong possibility of losing all 3 bets. So say you get $30 in sticky promo chips for a $20 buy. Then to use all $20 they have to lay AT LEAST another $60 on the board. For each 1-1 bet they win they keep the sticky bet but must bet AT LEAST $2 more to make full use of it.

Quote: AZDuffman

I have to admit I liked this until I read the replies and realized only APs care about odds and the same APs will leave the minute the promotion ends.

You coulod be on to something withthe Groupon idea, however. But, sadly, what you want *is* the fanny-pack-wearing-camera-toting-big6-playing-monster-margaretta-drinking tourist who asks why they can't get paid 11-10 instead of 6-5 on BJ.

I actually went through some of these ideas before I wrote down my proposal. I envisioned a groupon where people pledged $50 in free slot play and were rewarded with free pizza. While I appreciate the desire to get the "fanny pack" crowd, I think there are certain problems. Many of these people won't show up and will demand refunds even if you state up front that refunds are not permitted. There is no real reason to think that groupons will be more effective than existing promotions.

For free pizza or coffee I wouldn't think it would be worth it to a casino to set up the infrastructure or to hire someone to oversee the program. It might be easier to simply advertise on the existing groupon website and let them collect their exorbitant percentage. They already have the infrastructure.

The nearly zero house edge craps idea attracted me because I thought it would provide it's own advertising. I am envisioning 25 guys (or girls) yelling their heads off much more than normal during the play. People ask questions about what is going on. Plus there is a sign that says the table is not open to the general public. Nothing attracts people in Vegas more than a sign that says something is not open to them. They hurry over and buy in for tomorrow.

One of the reasons I left the Pass Line and Don't Pass Line with the House Edge was that I didn't want to attract the really aggressive AP player. The aggressive AP player might buy the whole $10,000 for a given hour, show up and play it once through and then leave. I don't think that would increase casino profits.

I suggested downtown Vegas as an example because you have a lack of traffic at some of these tables. The buy-ins are less than $18K on average per day at the craps tables. Now if you can attract this group of 25 players who have pre-paid $10K to early morning, weekdays, or 1:00 AM just after the tourists leave after the light show, you can easily induce them to stay a while longer with food or liquor. You know they have some cash since they pre-paid $400 apiece. However, I think it would also work on a strip casino at the hours of the day when business is normally so slow that some tables are not open.

What casinos really want to do is attract people who will remain as loyal customers.

Consider that Groupon deal wherein the coffeeshop was only attracting Groupon Groupies who had no intention of every visiting that local coffee shop again. The coffee shop would have done better with a sidewalk sign than with Groupon.

All these comps and freeplays and logo-themed merchandise deals are to "create" or "reward" the Loyalists. Mailers to those in the neighborhood, appreciation certificates randomly handed out, all this stuff is to make visitors feel valued more at one place than at some other place. Casinos always want a mix. They don't want to be known as a hooker hangout, but they don't discourage a few lovely young ladies draping themselves decoratively around the place. Casinos want a mix of slot machines, a mix of entertainment, a mix of booze selections, a mix of room offerings. Casinos do not really want the Advantage Players since an Advantage Player has the loyalty of a knat. Gambling specials? In a sense, most casinos already have them: in the high limit rooms where the rules is if you are showing us some real action, we will show you some really good Blackjack rules and some really nice waitresses to serve you some really top shelf booze.

What you are proposing with this Groupon deal is that the casino should engage in some monetary "outreach program" in order to lure the curious but potentially loyal customers who like coupons. Unfortunately, people who like coupons tend to be loyal to the coupons, not to the merchant offering the discount, but to the coupon itself. That is why it might be better for a casino to deal with an affinity-lifestyle coupon company. You want 1000 bimbos? Okay, that will be "x" dollars. They then issue some sort of deal attractive to Bimbos. Pedicures, manicures, or whatever but only after being validated by play in your casino. Or a dozen massage therapists set up in some alcove for couponers who show up for massages and first have to press a red button for an hour or something.

Vegas has these open bars from time to time that offer all the booze you can swill provided its Brand X. The club promotion seems to attract some regulars and some passersby. So maybe a casino could do a Patron Night or a Red Bull Night or something. Massive specials to a targeted audience rather than a "cattle call" type Groupon special.

I have to agree with most of the responders on this idea... the Groupon concept only works for people who either already have an interest in the product/service, or for extreme couponers. In either case, a casino offer is not really going to attract new players to a casino.

The other facet that nobody has mentioned kind of surprises me... then again, I'm not familiar with Nevada gaming law. In most states, ANY change made to any odds, rules etc must be submitted and approved by the gaming commission. This requires more money to be spent on getting that approval. Further, any odds changes must be posted to see, so the casino would have to buy a new layout, pay somebody to install that new layout, etc. The game would only be played for a short amount of time, then the layout would have to be rechanged, or not used at all. I have a hard time thinking a casino would want to put that kind of an effort on a game that would have such a MINIMAL advantage.

Further, as much as we like to think we are a smarter group of players, the reality is most gamblers are less interested in 0 house edge than they are everything else. Otherwise, there wouldn't be 6-5 tables all over the strip. It's a good idea in theory but it would be so impractical to carry out I don't see it having much success.

Quote: FleaStiff

how many darned dealer mistakes you gonna have before and afterwards?

This is a key question.

Often, good, established dealers, have a tough time getting things right on a new game they have just learned. Change all the payouts, and you've essentially put these good dealers on a whole new game. There's gonna be mistakes. LOTS of them.

So I momentarily thought of a way to create the same goal, with no new payouts - no potential new errors.

Take away the zeroes in Roulette. There's essentially nothing for the dealer to learn. Just put a sign, and a cover over the zeroes betting area, and you're set. Should the dealer forget, and attempt to put the Dolly marker on the zero, as soon as he sees the cover, he'll remember that the zero spin is a push/re-spin situation. All payouts remain the same, but it's now a zero edge game.

Sounds simple, right?

But even without this special promotion, people have the opportunity to at least get half-way there. They can easily play at a single-zero table.

That being the case, why do so many people play at a double-zero table?

Figure that one out, and you have the reason why this groupon-type craps promotion won't work.

I like the idea. I would suggest that the special chips be available for use at any open table (they could not be mixed with regular chips). However, once a wager is settled, they would either be collected as a loser, or exchanged for a regular chip when a winner was paid. It would be tough on the dealers, but they would, hopefully, pick up some tips from the winners. The casino would make some money from those keeping collector items too.

Here is my idea for a promotion: At random times, a random table would be selected, and every player with a bet in action would win a sum equal to the amount they would have won if all of their "non-variable" bets paid off (so a bonus bet win that depends on a particular hand, or sequence of outcomes, might only win a base bet, but high/low bets, hops and hardways, would pay at stated odds). The winning table would not be announced until after the prize payout to prevent past-posting. Potentially, the casino could get hit hard on a Friday night at a hot craps table, but can you imagine the publicity? The prospect of an "All Action Win" would encourage folks to keep playing, and to bet on longshots, since you win just for having a bet in action.

I suppose you could get creamed by a roulette player covering every number, but they don't know when or where the lightning will strike. It could be once a night, it could be once an hour, it could be once a week.

Just got back from Blackhawk. No 6.5 tables last visit 3 months ago. this time I found 1 each in 3 casinos. Wanna guess which table was busiest in all there ? SO SAD !

Quote: buzzpaff

Just got back from Blackhawk. No 6.5 tables last visit 3 months ago. this time I found 1 each in 3 casinos. Wanna guess which table was busiest in all there ? SO SAD !

I suspect the lure was a low min bet.

Quote: Tiltpoul

The other facet that nobody has mentioned kind of surprises me... then again, I'm not familiar with Nevada gaming law. In most states, ANY change made to any odds, rules etc must be submitted and approved by the gaming commission. This requires more money to be spent on getting that approval. Further, any odds changes must be posted to see, so the casino would have to buy a new layout, pay somebody to install that new layout, etc. The game would only be played for a short amount of time, then the layout would have to be rechanged, or not used at all. I have a hard time thinking a casino would want to put that kind of an effort on a game that would have such a MINIMAL advantage.

Some craps tables just have circles around the 2 and 12 on the field bet. They can both pay double, one can pay double and the other triple, or for zero house edge they would both pay triple.

I admit the center table is labelled incorrectly. Perhaps you can cover it with a felt with new odds.

But I would have thought that craps would be approved for a range of odds. Some casinos offer promotions where they don't charge for buy bets for a 4 or 10, and some casinos charge the commission only when you win, while others charge if you play. It seems difficult to believe that if you make a change in those rules you have to get the game re-approved by the control board.

>Change all the payouts, and you've put these good dealers on a whole new game. There's gonna be mistakes. LOTS of them.
It won't be just the dealers. One Floorman said to an exasperatingly slow craps crew "Pay The Field you (censored) jerks" and immediately all four craps tables paid the field. Supervisory personnel make mistakes on new games and new promotions too.

>So I momentarily thought of a way to create the same goal, with no new payouts - no potential new errors.
>Take away the zeroes in Roulette. There's essentially nothing for the dealer to learn.
>All payouts remain the same, but it's now a zero edge game.

>why do so many people play at a double-zero table?
>Figure that one out, and you have the reason why this groupon-type craps promotion won't work.
Many reasons. The casino only offers double zero, the nearest double zero wheel is across the street but that cute waitress is here, these jerks I'm with think its better to play a double-zero wheel, look Mac, put that darned slide rule away or I'll ram it down your throat 'cause the only double I want to hear about is a double martini.
This groupon-type craps coupon will only get people who know more about trendy coupons than craps anyway. Heck, you just know some of those coupon-clipping Bimbos are going to go up to some poor casino employee and ask where the ladies room is 'cause they got some coupon about a crap. You gonna send your crews to a training session for that?