Alphabetic Roulette.....
Quote: NareedI would suggest to call the letters letters rather than numbers.
And did you wear your Alphabetic Roulette T-shirt?
Oops. Thanks for that correction.
No, I forgot to.
Quote: EvenBobPeople have no connection to letters, not the way they do to numbers.
I was going to spell out dirty words with my bets, but didn't get up the courage.
Quote: WizardI was going to spell out dirty words with my bets, but didn't get up the courage.
Did anyone else?
Funny, first thing I thought about was spelling my middle name :) No repeating letters in it.
BTW what were the table minimum and maximum limits? Also I didn't see a display of past letters in the photo. Is there one?
Quote: WizardI was going to spell out dirty words with my bets, but didn't get up the courage.
That will be something people do and they'll always
think it was original with them. When my wife had the
antique mall, she sold chips and stuff under the counter.
Inevitably some guy would ask if the snacks were antiques
too. She would always ignore it, but her sister, who
worked there for years, would say "That was real funny
the first thousand times we heard it."
Quote: NareedDid anyone else?
Funny, first thing I thought about was spelling my middle name :) No repeating letters in it.
BTW what were the table minimum and maximum limits? Also I didn't see a display of past letters in the photo. Is there one?
I don't think so. There were two other players. One was a very attractive blonde, who I wish would have spelled out some dirty words.
The minimum was $5, meaning "outside" bets had a $5 minimum, and you had to bet at least $5 on the inside or not at all. My usual bet was $5 on "roulette" and $1 each on C, J, Q, S, and X. I actually did quite well, unlike the other three new games I played.
No display of past results.
Quote: WizardOne was a very attractive blonde, who I wish would have spelled out some dirty words.
If I saw a man spelling dirty words I'd be disgusted. It's vulgar and childish, after all.
Quote:The minimum was $5, meaning "outside" bets had a $5 minimum, and you had to bet at least $5 on the inside or not at all.
That's about on par with regular roulette. Given the lower house edge, though, I wonder what casinos want with it beyond novelty value. I would play it. Hopefully it will still be there by next May.
Quote:No display of past results.
Interesting. That would suggest either 1) they're very aware of the likelihood of dirty words, or worse, being spelled out and/or 2) targeting non-traditional roulette players. Too bad for those on the prowl for a biased wheel, though ;)
Quote: NareedIf I saw a man spelling dirty words I'd be disgusted. It's vulgar and childish, after all.
Me too. It's a different story if a woman does it. That is why men pay $5 a minute to hear it, and I doubt it ever happens the other direction.
still falls into a pocket and theres no one bet thats any better
than any other bet. The HE is smaller, so you'll lose a little
slower. But you'll still lose.
Quote: WizardMe too. It's a different story if a woman does it. That is why men pay $5 a minute to hear it, and I doubt it ever happens the other direction.
We're getting waaaay off topic here ;)
So how come you didn't bet on W I Z A R D? Of course, by the rules I suppose that would be W I YZ A R D, but still...
Quote: NareedWe're getting waaaay off topic here ;)
So how come you didn't bet on W I Z A R D? Of course, by the rules I suppose that would be W I YZ A R D, but still...
Agreed. I generally prefer the letters with lots of scrabble points. I made exceptions for the C and S, because I used to have the personalized C license plate in Nevada (until they took it back), and S because it is also a good letter to have in Scrabble, for plurals.
FYI: In the patent research for my Poker For Roulette game, my lawyer, Rich Newman, found a patent for an alphabetic game that adds the 12 zodiac symbols. That's a total of 38, so the math is the same as double zero. And it allieviates the dirty word problem somewhat.
If it were my invention, I would have put Q and U together, rather than Y and Z. whatever.
I also would have scattered the colors so that additional betting positions could be created. I.E. The rule card shows position (4) at the intersection of I, K, 2nd Six. That's identical to betting on Blue. It shows another position (4) at the intersection of S, T, U, V, Orange, Pink. To any player that needs the rule card, that's just damn confusing. Why wouldn't that bet go at the intersetion of S, U, 4th Six? After all, that's where an experienced Roulette bettor would have placed that bet.
As a graphic designer, I find it stupidly funny that the layout on the rule card is a miniture of the felt printing - right down to the paytables printed on the felt.
I notice on the rule card there are white ovals around the letters R O U L E T, and orange ovals around P A I. It's hard to see, but were there orange ovals in addition to white around R T? What about around YZ?
Did you ask the other players and or dealers what they thought of the game?
Some people get confused by the former / latter thing. Plus, given the apparent ignorance of people that play double-zero when a single-zero table is available, maybe the last sentence should be:Quote:Strategy
Every bet has the same house edge so it makes no difference what you bet on. Given the choice between Alphabetic Roulette and conventional double-zero roulette, the former is the better bet.
Single-Zero Roulette is the bettor's best option with a house edge of 2.7%. Double-Zero is the worst option with an edge of 5.26%. Alphabetic Roulette is right in the middle at 4%.
Did you happen to notice a brand name on the hub of the wheel?
While TCS John Huxley isn't the distributor, (and probably turned it down if they were approached), I would not be surprised to see that they manufactured the wheel. After all, they may not want to distribute it, but to make a few bucks off the supplies? Why not? As a bettor, if I saw any other name, I might be concerned with the fairness of the wheel.
Quote: DJTeddyBearI wonder if there's no history display for fear of dirty words appearing, or simply because the inventor didn't want to invest in the electronics until the game gets more installs.
Well, I don't play roulette much, but I'd assumed habitual players are superstitious and track results. Therefore eny lure for such players would have to include a tracker of past results. I could be wrong about that, or players might prefer to keep track on paper (I assume that's allowed). Aslo the tracker stands out and can be seen from a distance, whih draws attention to the game.
We'll just have to see how the game does.
Quote: EvenBobDo they allow a pencil and paper at the table?
I took some notes on my rule card at the table and nobody said anything. I would be astonished if they didn't allow writing down past outcomes.
Quote: DJTeddyBearI wonder if there's no history display for fear of dirty words appearing, or simply because the inventor didn't want to invest in the electronics until the game gets more installs.
I doubt that is the reason. Statistically speaking, it would almost never happen. I think it was to keep expenses down.
Quote: DJTeddyBearIf it were my invention, I would have put Q and U together, rather than Y and Z. whatever.
Good idea. Like on Boggle dice.
Quote: DJTeddyBearI also would have scattered the colors so that additional betting positions could be created. I.E. The rule card shows position (4) at the intersection of I, K, 2nd Six. That's identical to betting on Blue.
I agree.
Quote: DJTeddyBearAs a graphic designer, I find it stupidly funny that the layout on the rule card is a miniture of the felt printing - right down to the paytables printed on the felt.
Agreed. They should have taken them out, as they are impossible to read on the rule card without a magnifying glass. I'm sure you'll have lots of suggestions for improvement on their web site as well.
Quote: DJTeddyBearI notice on the rule card there are white ovals around the letters R O U L E T, and orange ovals around P A I. It's hard to see, but were there orange ovals in addition to white around R T? What about around YZ?
I don't remember.
Quote: DJTeddyBearDid you ask the other players and or dealers what they thought of the game?
No. I got the impression the dealer didn't speak much English. The hot blonde (not our HB) and boyfriend seemed to like it but I didn't talk to them.
Quote: DJTeddyBearSome people get confused by the former / latter thing. Plus, given the apparent ignorance of people that play double-zero when a single-zero table is available, maybe the last sentence should be:
Single-Zero Roulette is the bettor's best option with a house edge of 2.7%. Double-Zero is the worst option with an edge of 5.26%. Alphabetic Roulette is right in the middle at 4%.
I don't apologize for the former/latter thing. If anyone is confused they should look it up, as it is common terminology. However, good point about mentioning single-zero roulette. I left that out because most casinos don't have it, but I see your point.
Quote: DJTeddyBearDid you happen to notice a brand name on the hub of the wheel?
No. Maybe you can write to them through the game's web site.
Quote: DJTeddyBearWhile TCS John Huxley isn't the distributor, (and probably turned it down if they were approached), I would not be surprised to see that they manufactured the wheel. After all, they may not want to distribute it, but to make a few bucks off the supplies? Why not? As a bettor, if I saw any other name, I might be concerned with the fairness of the wheel.
Even if the wheel were biased, it would not affect the house edge if you didn't know how it was biased. So unless you bet the same letters every time, and are bothered by variance, don't worry about who made the wheel.
I wonder if there's no history display for fear of dirty words appearing, or simply because the inventor didn't want to invest in the electronics until the game gets more installs.
I doubt that is the reason. Statistically speaking, it would almost never happen. I think it was to keep expenses down.
Now WIZ you know that fate and mathematics are sometimes Diametrically opposed. I see the F word showing up just as the church group decides to be naughty and gamble. LOL
I don't know why I didn't check first. As I mentioned, I have a copy of the patent for Alphabetic Roulette. The patent clearly indicates that the colors ARE supposed to be scattered!Quote: DJTeddyBearI also would have scattered the colors...
If you're interested, here's a PDF scan of US Patent 7,204,488 B2. Page 8, column 6, lines 8 thru 12 are where it indicates that colors would be scattered. The drawings indicate that too, although it's harder to conclude based upon a black & white drawing of colors.
I wonder if that deviation opens the door to legal copy-cats.
Additionally, the patent and drawing also has a "Bonus Box" progressive bet, where the bet pays big if a letter repeats three times. That, obviously, didn't make the final cut.
Quote: DJTeddyBearI don't know why I didn't check first. As I mentioned, I have a copy of the patent for Alphabetic Roulette. The patent clearly indicates that the colors ARE supposed to be scattered!
If you're interested, here's a PDF scan of US Patent 7,204,488 B2. Page 8, column 6, lines 8 thru 12 are where it indicates that colors would be scattered. The drawings indicate that too, although it's harder to conclude based upon a black & white drawing of colors.
I wonder if that deviation opens the door to legal copy-cats.
If you're really interested in that aspect, you should read the file history of the patent. The Examiner was very clear on what the patentable feature is.
I wonder...
Can Poker-for-Roulette be added to Alphabetic roulette?
QRQRR, CACCA, LLLDD are full houses. So is WWUU(XY), with the single slot XY as wild zero.
PTSQR is actually a straight (PQRST), though that's REAL hard to see.
Odds would be different.
Edit: an Alphabetic Roulette dealer is a good job for a Scrabble pro.
Edit2: BOOBS are two pairs, - not one. BALLS, however, is one pair.
The previous spins display board was not provided in order to keep the costs down. You can track the spins on the rule card which actually has a space for previous results.
It's in a good position in the casino and the distributors are providing good back-up to give the game every chance in it's initial stages. Only time will tell but roulette is a difficult market to aim for especially as it's not a mainstream game in the US.
Quote: SwitchOnly time will tell but roulette is a difficult market to aim for especially as it's not a mainstream game in the US.
Good point, Geoff, you got me doing a little research:
In looking up stats on Missouri’s Gaming site, I found this out on a monthly basis:
1. The Argosy Casino has 39 tables, and $7.6M in drop. Three double deck BJ tables dropped $1.3M, and 3 Roulette tables dropped $500K. Total BJ had over $4M in drop.
2. LadyLuck has 14 tables, dropped $1M. ONE Roulette table dropped only $18K.
3. Harrah's Maryland heights has 86 tables for $12.3M in drop for June. Their SEVEN Roulette tables dropped only $873K.
Everywhere in Missouri, Roulette is less than 10% of the aggregate table drop. BJ is 50% plus.
There are only 12 Pai Gow tables in the entire state (out of 450 tables, - 550 if you include poker rooms.) Seven, a majority, are EZ Pai Gow.
Many American gaming jurisdictions are new to the market, and reflect a bias towards BJ, Craps, and Poker side games like Three-card Poker and Ultimate Texas Hold 'em. Roulette and Pai Gow are really side games. You have an install at Lumiere Place, about $166K drop.
Las Vegas is more mainstream with Roulette, it's over 10% of pit revenue as a more mature market. Pai Gow here is 20% of table games in local casinos.
Market makes the game intro to a great degree. A busy Vegas Casino with a tourist population stands a better chance than a locals market with few regular players.
Of course, if you look at Europe then roulette is a far more popular game. In fact it is the number 1 game in the UK (not sure about the other European countries).
One potential problem with Alphabetic Roulette being introduced in the UK for example is that at 4% the house edge is considerably higher than the single zero wheels here.
There's no reason why not. The math would have to be re-worked of course.Quote: PaigowdanDave,
Can Poker For Roulette be added to Alphabetic roulette?
Sure it's hard for a person to see. But since Poker For Roulette will need electronics to track concurrent bets, the same electronics can identify winning combinations, easily.Quote: PaigowdanQRQRR, CACCA, LLLDD are full houses. So is WWUU(XY), with the single slot XY as wild zero.
PTSQR is actually a straight (PQRST), though that's REAL hard to see.
One TITTY is three of a kind. How's that for weird math?Quote: PaigowdanBOOBS are two pairs, - not one. BALLS, however, is one pair.
I've no idea how the math would work, but you could dream up any words and pay accordingly. Let's say words like JACKPOT, ROULETTE, FITZGERALDS, DAVE and so on. Naturally whether they need be hit in order or not changes the math a great deal.
Quote: DJTeddyBearIf I meet the Alphabet Roulette guy at G2E, I'll talk to him. Otherwise, I'll contact him afterwards. It's certainly something to consider.
He was at the show last year. There are pictures from it on his web site. I'd lay 3 to 1 he is here this year.
Quote: WizardHe was at the show last year. There are pictures from it on his web site. I'd lay 3 to 1 he is here this year.
Me too. We met a number of people who later became customers. Gotta be there, as expensive as it is.
Mike - do you think Roulette is over-represented at G2E? The G2E floor is a sea of wheels in some areas.....
Quote: MrCasinoGamesEvenBob
Yes, the house edge is still the same.
The intervention of Roukette Link-Bets™ is just to give the player more betting options, not try to change the house edge.
And yes we are not doing the
player any favors, but are all casino games inventors here to invent games to favours the players?
We are trying to invent a game the players favor !
Quote: DorothyGaleI would enjoy watching the complete works of William Shakespeare come out one letter at a time ... damn the monkeys at the typewriters!
Aren't a couple of letters missing? How is that handled?
Then there would be these delights ... waiting for that next letter to hit ...
C-U-N- ...
N-I-G-G-E- ...
F-A-G-G-O- ...
--Ms. D.
I prefer monkey sitting and typing, not flying to do Margaret Hamilton's bidding ! ( my heroine)
Quote: PaigowdanMike - do you think Roulette is over-represented at G2E? The G2E floor is a sea of wheels in some areas.....
Yes. It would be over-represented with one wheel. This is not what DJTB needs to hear, but roulette is a dying game. I have seen lots of roulette variants over the years. The number to get beyond a field trial, as far as I know -- zero.
Quote: WizardQuote: PaigowdanMike - do you think Roulette is over-represented at G2E? The G2E floor is a sea of wheels in some areas.....
Yes. It would be over-represented with one wheel. This is not what DJTB needs to hear, but roulette is a dying game. I have seen lots of roulette variants over the years. The number to get beyond a field trial, as far as I know -- zero.
What do you think are the chances of a SD BJ game with internal jackpots, not as sidebets ???
Quote: buzzpaffWhat do you think are the chances of a SD BJ game with internal jackpots, not as sidebets ???
I'd need to see details, but blackjack variants are a good direction to throw your net in the business. I think the market is saturated with side bets, so I would prefer to see a fresh game idea.
Quote: PaigowdanMike - do you think Roulette is over-represented at G2E?
The G2E floor is a sea of wheels in some areas.....
Quote: WizardYes. It would be over-represented with one wheel. This is not what DJTB needs to hear, but roulette is a dying game. I have seen lots of roulette variants over the years. The number to get beyond a field trial, as far as I know -- zero.
This is surprising. Both Roulette and Baccarat (which are both no brainers to play) - get relatively little action in the U.S.
Both are "No Strategy Pure luck" gambling. (The same could be said about craps, but because the dice "take either a forward or negative path" on many rolls, this is arguable.)
Apparently, Americans at least look for a little strategy in their action. Apparently so.
Quote: buzzpaff
What do you think are the chances of a SD BJ game with internal jackpots, not as sidebets ???
With less than 1% edge, there isn't much room for a progressive. You'll need to increase the house edge on the main game to afford any bonus pays, and that usually means rules like blackjack paying even money. Check out how Spanish and Super Fun did it.
Quote: WizardQuote: PaigowdanMike - do you think Roulette is over-represented at G2E? The G2E floor is a sea of wheels in some areas.....
Yes. It would be over-represented with one wheel. This is not what DJTB needs to hear, but roulette is a dying game. I have seen lots of roulette variants over the years. The number to get beyond a field trial, as far as I know -- zero.
That's not the kind of opinion I was looking forward to.
But bear in mind, Poker For Roulette is not a roulette variant, but a side bet. And, with simple math tweaks, can be applied to any Roulette table or new variant.
And unlike some other side bets for other games, Poker For Roulette does not change the basic game. FYI: There are probably more examples, but what jumps to mind is the BJ side bet where if you have 77, you'd violate basic strategy and not split, hoping to get another 7.
Quote: DJTeddyBearThat's not the kind of opinion I was looking forward to.
Relax, Dave.
Because Poker-For-Roulette now gives a "multi-path" result to Roulette, - it now turns Roulette into a multi-spin/multi-path game.
If people could see that.
Edit: especially distributors!
If Aphabetic Roulette can get an install, then P-F-R is what is needed to make Roulette a more viable and exciting game.
ALSO keep in mind that the gaming industry is VERY SLOW to respond changes - unless it is crammed down their necks.
Even then they mess up.
The patent on Alphabetic Roulette preceeds its install by about four or five years.
And this is for ONE install at Fitzgeralds.
It took me TWO YEARS to get 45 EZ Pai Gow installs, but it is only because DEQ moved VERY QUICKLY on it, AND because DEQ ALSO had EZ Baccarat, another successful commission-free game as a sister product.
DEQ installed its first install/field trial at the Barona Casino about ONE WEEK after I filed the non-provisional patent, and about eight weeks after Charles Mousseau finished its final gaming math.
You guys have NO IDEA how slowly the gaming industry moves, especially if it is not their money on the line.
EDIT: I would say that if Alphabetic Roulette is NOT using a Bona-Fide Gaming Industry Distributor such as DEQ, Shufflemaster, Galaxy Gaming, or Gaming Network, or TCSJohnnyBoy, their prospects are very slim.
And I know it's gonna take time to get the ball rolling.
I just would have preferred a different kind of comment from The Wiz....
Mike Shackleford never purchases any games, nor makes such decisions, except occasionally. Fantastic opinions he offers, though.
He just reviews what is "out there and thrown up" onto the board here in Gambling land, or thrown down onto a casino layout that is in play.
He doesn't promote for distributors before hand, nor does Mike ever sway the gaming board. A no-no.
I agree that Roulette is a nasty market.
I agree that you have an awesome product for it - it really is - but it doesn't mean that it will sell. It should, true, but the Gaming industry is filled with morons who make both slow decisions and fucking idiotic decisions. [EDIT: same as all industries that I might be a part of!]
I figure that if Alphabetic Roulette got an install at a downtown Las Vegas Casino ( - about as Amazing an install as "Rupert's Island -----------------------Draw"), then any "easy-to-install" game has got a shot.
However, there are THREE big differences:
1. Your game is GREAT - but is VERY DIFFICULT and EXPENSIVE to implement, unlike some silly-ass card game, - even though it might save American Roulette, AND:
2. You will need a MAJOR DISTRIBUTOR to go ahead on it, with its expenses, which most are not willing to do at this point; and
3. Casinos are taking the cheap and easy way out on pit games at this point. Think: "For new games, card games and dice games that are EASY to implement."
Edit: Guano happens....
Quote: Wizard
This is not what DJTB needs to hear, but roulette is a dying game. .
Its not dying in the casinos where I go, you usually can't get near the tables.
Its not dying in Europe or the rest of the world. I know of 6 casinos that have
Roulette Evolution and its a cash cow for all of them, you have to wait for a
seat most of the time and fight with somebody to get it.
or "M-E-T-H-I-N-K-S-I-T-I-S-L-I-K-E-A-W-E-A-S-E-L". Subliminals aren't EVERYTHING. One could use a counter under an alphabetic listing of each letter to show how many "hits" (out of the last 100 or 1,000 spins) came for it.
seat most of the time and fight with somebody to get it. "
I found this to be true on my last visit to Blackhawk/CentralCity. While Golden Baccarat was dead in 2 casinos and removed in another.
Probably cause you can not squeeze or tear up digital cards.
Quote: EvenBobYeah, there's not enough places on the layout to bet. Gimee a break. Watch people play, they ignore 80% of the places to bet now. A lot of tables have the snake bet and thats ignored most of the time also.
Yes! And the Red Snake Bet was one of my FAVORITE ideas for an additional series side bet!
